NI support

[EalingGreen]

As I say;Don't begrudge JR & some* fans from the North......but these include the same confused individuals who earlier this summer were bickering @ Stormont during the cricket ODI as to whether they should support England, or er, :rolleyes: Ireland,FFS! They then started singing they were 'Northern Ireland' etc.
WTF are some of them on........also there's a large no.who've 'imaginatively' incorporated the 'red-white & blue' colour scheme into your colours, such is their paranoia!
Doesn't seem so 'non-sectarian' then(or that they could ever 'seperate' politics from sport(Not that anyone ever should)).......It's only the Hypocrisy which really bothers me though!

*Will even admit to knowing(& drinking with) some of them! :o

The City of Brussels did NOT make the award to JR and some NI football fans.
Nor did they make it to some "confused individuals" at a cricket match.
And whatever their behaviour at said match, you should not extrapolate from this any inference about football fans' behaviour at Windsor Park.
Your "some of my best friends are Prod/Black/Muslim/Jewish etc" argument does not impress me either, since in my experience, it is often used to conceal, or deflect from, prejudice of one degree or another.
Above all, the whole tone of your contribution to this thread is one of "begrudgery", right down to your petty inability even to afford our football team its correct title: "Northern Ireland".

Quite simply, the whole atmosphere and behaviour of the NI support, both home and away, has improved radically in recent years. This has been recognised by a whole host of neutral organisations, bodies and individual observers.
Of course, the job is not complete; indeed it may never be. Nor should anyone reasonably expect "credit" merely for starting to put right what should never have been allowed to develop in the first place.
However, neither should outside observers such as yourself be allowed without challenge to deny, decry and denigrate the progress which has unquestionably been made, especially when you appear merely to be preserving your own one-sided and outdated prejudices.

[EalingGreen]

My observations are entirely based on talking to fans I've met from the North;Don't agree with them, but I wouldn't be so judgemental to call their views 'outdated', though I would admit,there is a high degree of individual 'prejudice',not exclusively all theirs,............I'm only reacting to the more extreme elements of this. ;)

Nowhere have I sought to deny that some who call themselves NI supporters are inclined to behave badly (indeed do behave so); however, I should be surprised if they exclusively comprise those with whom you come into contact from "the North" (as you term it)

Which actually goes to prove my point, which is that by "only reacting to the more extreme elements", you begrudge all the good work which undoubtedly goes on day and day out (in so far as you acknowledge it at all).

Instead of hearing about it from these "fans" you meet from NI, why don't you take the trouble actually to attend a game? After all, it's not that far from Stormont to Windsor Park. Or are you frightened that that might make it more difficult for you to maintain your prejudices?

[Not Brazil]

"Appreciate some work has been done, which is good, but it's an illusion to claim that the fanbase's views are all now so 'cuddly & inclusive"

The views of the small minority who would have engaged in sectarian chanting have probably not changed.

What has changed is that their "politics", in the main, is left at the turnstiles, and that vile sectarian chanting has been eliminated inside the ground during Northern Ireland matches.

Like all teams, Northern Ireland have a few fans who would not qualify for "Saint" status.:) The ROI have them too - everyone does!

"Though I suppose the Maze has got some ltd.appeal!"

It's increasingly unlikely that the Maze project will happen.;)

Plans for a spanking new stadium in Belfast city are looking much more appealing to most Northern Ireland fans.

"most of them are more than a little odd!"

A trait found in many Northern Ireland fans.:D

[EalingGreen]

To be fair to the people I know, don't have general issues with their 'behaviour', just some of their views, as would they with I. Appreciate some work has been done, which is good, but it's an illusion to claim that the fanbase's views are all now so 'cuddly & inclusive'.

You'll be glad to know they have invited me, but there's a no.of reasons, including beliefs based on personal experience of the North why I'd be extremely unlikely to ever attend......though I suppose the Maze has got some ltd.appeal! ;) Plus, most of them are more than a little odd! There's a limit to how much disfunctionality, a man can take..........

It's more than just some work, and nobody I know has ever claimed that "the fanbase's views are all now so 'cuddly & inclusive'" - but, hey, if you want to go on seeing the bottle as being 7/8ths empty, don't let me stop you...

[Btw, I'd be curious to know what "personal experience of the North sic" would prevent you from attending football matches in Belfast. After all, you managed to survive your trip to the cricket at Stormont unscathed and you indicate you might consider the Maze, both situated in impeccably Unionist areas of NI.
Maybe you are afraid you won't get through the checkpoints on the Lisburn Road where they measure the distance between your eyes and ask you to pronounce the letter between "G" and "I", before they'll let you proceed through to Windsor? And, of course, the compulsory community singing of Orange songs in the stadium might not appeal, either? Just a thought]

[Not Brazil]

Gents;Accept what NB says at face value.....deep down I (& many others)remain to be convinced, but then we're not there, nor are we likely to be.........so our loss! :eek:


I know of one regular poster here, a dedicated follower of the ROI, who could relate his experiences of the transformation to you (I'm sure he has already elsewhere on the Forum) - he sat beside me at the Azerbaijan game at Windsor last September.

Whether you are "convinced" or not is entirely irrelevent.

[EalingGreen]

Know exactly who you mean......:rolleyes: good to see the sceptics are being 'ignored'! :p

The difference between those who acknowledge the progress being made, and those who remain "sceptical", is that the former have actually been to matches at Windsor recently, whereas the latter (such as yourself) invariably have not.

And if the sceptics are of sufficiently closed mind, then they can probably never be persuaded, since the necessary "proof" can only ever result from actually experiencing it.

However, if you won't take my word for it, I reproduce below an article from last year, first published in "The Starry Plough" by a former Republican prisoner. Since this is the journal of the IRSP (the political wing of the INLA), the writer would not normally be inclined to look favourably upon the NI team and its supporters, to say the least!

[Note: The writer makes reference to the infamous match in Belfast in 1993 between NI and ROI. However, some of his observations here are incorrect (e.g. ROI fans not being "allowed" to attend the match, or Billy Bingham "inciting" the home fans). He might be forgiven for his misinformation, however, since that was another match which he wasn't actually at, seeing as he was unavoidably detained 'At Her Majesty's Pleasure'! The other poster on this site to whom RDB and NB refer was actually at that game and has described it as being not so bad as portrayed by the er, "sceptics"]

[EDIT: The article itself is too long for one post, so I'll just include it in a separate post, to follow]

[EalingGreen]

[Article on NI Fans from a member of the IRSP]

ARE "NORTHERN IRELAND" FOOTBALL SOPPORTERS SECTARIAN?
It was 1979 and I was 16 years old. I found myself walking towards the "Village area" of Belfast to "Windsor Park", the home of Linfield and "Northern Ireland" football. Not a safe place for Catholics at the best of times, but today I was with thousands of other "Catholics", we were on our way to watch Cliftonville play against Linfield. It was meant to be a home match for Cliftonville, but Linfield refused to play at Solitude, the home of Cliftonville, so all their matches against Linfield were played at "Windsor Park". The "Blues", as Linfield are known in "football circles" said their supporters were in danger by attending away matches at Solitude. This goes back to 1970 or 71, when the I.R.A. shot over the heads of the "Huns" (as they were known to us) as they left Solitude after a match. The I.R.A. did this in response to the damage that the "Huns" were causing in the area before and after matches, damage to homes and cars etc. Locals put pressure on the "Ra" to do something about this, hence the shots into the air.
Well that's how it was explained to me when I asked why all the away matches were at "Windsor Park" when they played Linfield. I don't know if this is true or not, but Glentoran and their supporters, who always played their away games at Solitude, were never shot at, never mind shots being fired over their heads. As a matter of fact, Glentoran believed that this was an excuse to give Linfield an advantage over all the other teams in the league.
But back to 1979, as we got into the Village area we were "tunneled" into "Windsor Park" by the R.U.C., in other words, they lined the street on either side as we walked by. This might seem like good "Policing" on the face of it, but in effect, it just made us easy targets for the stones and bottles that were thrown over the roofs into the street at us. This did not really bother me, as I knew to expect it. What really frightened me was the venom that was spat at us from elderly women, who took to their upstairs windows to make sure we saw them, and called us all the names under the Sun. They brought photos of their Queen, union jacks and any other thing they thought we might find offensive. The hatred I saw in their faces as they shouted down at us is something I will never forget. Their cheers when one of us was hit by something, or more often than not, when the R.U.C. battered one of us, was unbelievable. After the match we had to run this gauntlet of sectarian hatred again as we made our way home.
I used to wonder what it was that these elderly women hated about us, but I was never to find the answer. I also wondered if women like my Mother could be capable of such hatred. Though I doubted it, it did make me wonder.
So when I was asked a few weeks ago would I go to watch Northern Ireland play Germany, I had my reservations, to say the least. I was on a course and the subject came up about the support for Northern Ireland being sectarian. Of-course it is, we all know that, don't we? One of the people on the course was a supporter, and the next day he informed us the I.F.A. was willing to give us 20 tickets for the match. So there it is, I found myself having to back up my opinions or be proved wrong, and the only way to do that was to go to the match!
So with a little bit more than fear, I made my way to the top of Tates Avenue to where we had agreed to meet. Although our group was very mixed I thought I stood out, a prime-evil fear no doubt. But being an ex-P.O.W. only made things worse, what if some one recognised me from the prison? What was I doing among all these "Huns" and I don't mean the German supporters? Christ I don't even like this team, why should I put myself through all this fear just because xxxxx xxxxx said I should do this course? Why didn't he do it himself? All sorts of thoughts were running through my head. To top it all the only green I had to wear was either a Celtic or Ireland top, and as that was not an option, I brought an "Ulster" flag that I had got in circumstances that I will not go into. As we walked towards the ground things seemed to be pleasant enough, German supporters mixed with us, some people finished of their beer before they got to the ground as no alcohol is allowed in anymore. This walk was very different from the last time I did it, no elderly women shouting abuse, no stones coming over the roofs, no "tunneling" by the R.U.C. but still I felt I was walking into the lion's den. One of the first things that surprised me after I went through the turn styles was two blokes wearing Ireland tops, now this was unreal, was a joke being played on me? No as it turned out. Into the stands I looked around and noticed how much the place had changed since 1979, it did look a lot better. As we waited for the match to start the lad that had got us the tickets said he was surprised I actually came, no where near as surprised as I was!!! So I settled in my seat and as the match started, I listened to the crowd and the songs they were singing, I had been told that there would no "Billy boys" songs; even the "Sash" was not sung anymore. This I found hard to believe as I thought it was the only two songs they knew!! I was also told that there would be no union jacks, and this turned out to be true, there was not one in the crowd. The singing was a surprise also, not one sectarian song was sung during the whole match. They didn't have too many songs; it seems that "Northern Ireland" is a bit of a mouth full to fit in!!
As the match progressed I started to feel a bit more at ease, we seemed to be in the "Family stand" as there was a lot of children running about. The crowd in the opposite stand started to do the "Dam Busters Tune" to try and annoy the German supporters. It didn't work; maybe the Germans know that it is probably the most overrated operation of world war two. As the reason that I went to the match was to observe the crowd, I didn't show too much interest in the actual match. As you probably know the Germans, down to 10 men for most of the match, won 4 to 1. I give out a bit of stick about this, as it showed how bad the "Northern Ireland" really is. At the end of the match the result of the Ireland-Israel was given out, this seem to get the loudest cheer of the whole night!!
At home that night I thought about the crowd, had things really changed that much? As a teenager I saw real hatred, "Windsor Park" has seen some ugly scenes over the years. Some of them made it into the local media probably the most notable were the game against Ireland. That night the sectarian hatred was so bad that Irish supporters were not allowed into the ground. I was in prison that night and was listening to the match on the radio in my cell. Even in the prison I could hear the crowd over the broadcasters talk. Things got that bad Jack Charlton, the Irish manager at that time, wouldn't sake the hand of Billy Bingham, the "Northern Ireland" manager, at the end of the match because he was inciting the crowd in its sectarian hatred. There was even a play made about this match because of the sectarianism that night.
This and other notable sectarian events were the hallmark of "Windsor Park". So for me to see such a change was challenging to say the least. My first thought was, well this is against the Germans, what if it was against Ireland? Would the "Dam Busters" and chants of "Healy, Healy give us a goal" have been enough for the crowd? Then again does that matter? The fact that the I.F.A. and their supporters are doing their best to get rid of sectarianism at these matches is a step forward.
We as Republican Socialists, should always look at progressive steps in a manner that befits our beliefs. I am not asking us to run out and support "Northern Ireland" but to ignore any move, no matter how small, that comes from the Unionists people would be a mistake on our behalf. We are about uniting people, not dividing them. We do not tell people what they should or should not believe in. We will have to except that the people I saw in "Windsor Park" that night were passionate about their team, it was part of their identity, and if they are trying to get rid of sectarianism at these matches, why should we still be ignorant of their efforts?
I didn't believe that these changes were possible, again it was only one match, but I did see changes, massive changes when you think about it. I still feel nothing for or identify with anything that is "Northern Irish" but these people are sharing this island with us, and if we can not work with them or try to understand and come to identify with each other, then as a working class party we will fail to ever achieve any sort of working class unity. So to me the challenge is not for the "Northern Ireland" supporters and unionism to come to our way of thinking, but for us to try to understand and work with progressive unionists to find a way towards working class unity. After all it is said that horse racing is the sport of kings and that soccer is the sport of the working class, why not try from here to find some working class unity?
Coming out of the ground I did feel that the I.F.A. were at least trying to end the overt bigotry and their supporters were playing their part in this also. But I felt a bit of sadness as I left, not only had Ireland dropped a few points against Israel, but as an Irish supporter I could no longer call this team "Northern Ireland nil"!!
Xxxxxx xxxxxx, Ard Comhairle IRSP

[Chewy]

Can't you see that you are making my point here, those that want to find offence will find it no matter what. As for me being British first and foremost, yes I have no problem in saying that and don't see that as anything to be ashamed of, as for you saying that I am not forward thinking, I think I would prefer to listen to people who actually know me on that one.

how can u be British and Irish are u on some sort of holiday ye boys are gas it makes my day to read this stuff :confused: :confused:

[Not Brazil]

how can u be British and Irish are u on some sort of holiday ye boys are gas it makes my day to read this stuff :confused: :confused:

Err...

English & British
Welsh & British
Scottish & British
Irish & British.

Nothing very funny about that chief.:eek:

What's "Irish American" all about? Do you understand that?

[EalingGreen]

how can u be British and Irish are u on some sort of holiday ye boys are gas it makes my day to read this stuff :confused: :confused:

To take this back to a footballing context, some of the players in the NI team and support have a Passport which denotes that they are citizens of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", which I guess covers all bases.
Of course, some players and fans have Passports issued by the Irish Republic (or "Ireland", if you prefer).
Either way, I couldn't give a stuff which it is - I just want to follow a team made up of people who are qualified to play for NI and who want to play for NI. I find it makes my day for me.

(P.S. When you go back to school after the holidays, you might want to pay a bit more attention in English class)

[Not Brazil]

Except that :rolleyes: ('Great')Britain geographically is England, Scotland & Wales! :D

Well, geographically I'm (Northern) Irish - I am also a "British Citizen", of the United Kingdom Of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

Plenty of this stuff on the Passports row thread. No need to duplicate it here.

"My judging of the 'progress', is based entirely on talking to & knowing some of your fans"

Righty ho - you're an expert then!

[EalingGreen]

My judging of the 'progress', is based entirely on talking to & knowing some of your fans :o . As well as observation of the wider fanbase on a collective basis! :eek:


Whereas NotBrazil, David, myself, the City of Brussels, UEFA, FIFA, Police forces in Austria and Poland (inter alia) and others prefer to judge on the evidence of our own eyes.
Which reminds me, you never indicated exactly what "personal experience of the North" makes you unable to countenance visiting Windsor Park for a football match, when you might consider The Maze, and have recently visited Stormont for a cricket match.
I mean to say, if a former INLA man can emerge unscathed (and tolerably favourably impressed), I find it hard to imagine what could deter you. Allergic to Protestant grass*, maybe?


* - It's green, btw, even at Windsor...;)

[EalingGreen]

Except that :rolleyes: ('Great')Britain geographically is England, Scotland & Wales! :D

And, geographically speaking, the "British Isles" take in the entire archipelago, including Dear Oul' Oireland.

Which proves, of course, exactly zilch. Any chance we could stick to football? :ball:

[EalingGreen]

The 'Brit.Isles' is an old colonial term.....though I would it mainly consists of 2 large islands, Britain and Ireland! :D

As for 'Whinger' Park, assuming I could get in again I'm not overly keen. Have also been invited by Linfield fans, but I'm in no great rush to return......it's even more of a kip than Lansdowne! :eek:

Your preoccupation (no pun intended) with geographical definitions and terminology baffles me, since it really has nothing to do with football in general, or this thread in particular.

And now it appears your reluctance to set foot in Windsor has nothing to do with your previously stated "personal experience of the North"; rather it may be more to do with comfort or facilities, or somesuch?

Make your mind up: are you one of "The Boys of the Old Brigade" or one of "The Prawn Sandwich Brigade"?

[David]

Geographically speaking, Great Britain merely refers to the largest island in the British Isles therefore it is correct to say that Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain and hence the term the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

[dcfcsteve]

So that means what exactly, a la their 'Brit' claim? :confused: Is it then now part of :rolleyes: 'Little Britain'?! That would explain a lot! :eek:

'Britain' is a geographical place. 'British' is a concept of nationality. The 2 do not have to overlap perfectly - hence Falkland Islanders or people from the Isle of Man, for example, have UK/British nationality/citizenship, even though they are neithEr form nor part of Britain.

Plenty of other countries have similar situations. Hawaii is not part of North America, yet its people are called 'Americans' and have 'American (i.e. US)' passports. Likewise, Puerto Rico is not part of the United States of America, but it's citizens have US passports.

[EalingGreen]

So that means what exactly, a la their 'Brit' claim? :confused: Is it then now part of :rolleyes: 'Little Britain'?! That would explain a lot! :eek:

FFS!

This thread is entitled "NI support". These days, only a tiny and unrepresentative minority of the NI support is interested in affirming their position on such petty and irrelevant considerations as the above.
I started posting on this thread in an attempt to provide a perspective from a regular fan, who has come to the view that as an NI fan, I am showing my support for eleven guys from my wee part of the world when they play football against eleven guys from another part of the world - nothing more, nothing less. As such, matches at Windsor (and away) offer a welcome opportunity to mix with people from diverse backgrounds for this one common purpose - and win, lose or draw it's mighty crack.
I had also hoped that the debate on this forum might give people an opportunity to learn more about each other, for my benefit as much as anyones. In particular, I had hoped that RDB (one of the most active contributors) might learn that we in the GAWA are not all obsessed with irrelevant political or religious matters. Sadly, it appears that I've not made much progress.
I, however, have learned something about RDB; namely, he's a small minded tithead, who isn't really interested in football in NI, or its supporters, other than as a pretext to bang on and on and on and on and on and on and on ad nauseum about petty little quarrels which the sane part of the rest of the world is trying to leave behind...

P.S. I had hoped to use the "sad" icon at the end of my post, but find myself frustrated by RDB even here, seeing as how he has already used up three icons in his own magnum opus quoted at the start of this post. Typical.

[David]

Look, I don't have a particular problem with you, or various Norn Iron fans of my acquaintance, generally.
The world has moved on;Maybe the vast majority forget their views at the match, but given the ones I know are 'moderates', their views(which they are perfectly entitled to)away from football......don't quite square that circle and present this same sunny view.
Not I would expect them to change so dramatically. Credit for the work that has been done, but there is a long long way to go, which will take years to conclude this process, IMO.

Why can you not differentiate between a person's political viewpoint and how they behave at a football game? I have my own political views but do not use a football match as a vehicle to air them, the two are completely separate yet you seem to continually want to put the two together.

[Not Brazil]

Why can you not differentiate between a person's political viewpoint and how they behave at a football game? I have my own political views but do not use a football match as a vehicle to air them, the two are completely separate yet you seem to continually want to put the two together.

Nail, head, hit David.

Please bear in mind that RDBloomfield hasn't been to a Northern Ireland game.:rolleyes:

"Credit for the work that has been done, but there is a long long way to go, which will take years to conclude this process, IMO."

Correct. "Work In Progress".

Has anyone claimed any differently?

[Not Brazil]

RDBloomfield,

"Yer wrong & yer right......been to some.......& even supported them!"

Good for you - when was the last time you went to a Northern Ireland game?

"WIP is a good summary. Good luck with it for the future"

Thanks.

"As for being 'political', I've hardly met anyone who doesn't have a stance on Unionism/Nationalism from the North,let alone the rest of Ireland!"

Don't mean they have to bring their "politics" through the turnstiles with them.

Most nationalists support the ROI, most unionists support Northern Ireland.

I've no issues with that.

That's largely born out of the fact that most nationalists/republicans would rather there wasn't a Northern Ireland.

"In a Utopian world, sport & politics wouldn't overlap"

Agreed.

Interestingly, the largest sporting association on the island of Ireland is wedded to nationalist/republican political outlook.

"but this is the real world"

Yes - we live on an island whose people are extremely politically divided.

"So you have to set peoples' opinions in this context"

There's nothing wrong with having a "unionist" (ie. wishing Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom) opinion, is there?

I have no desire to express my "unionism" at football matches.

When I go to watch Northern Ireland, I ain't going to express anything other than support for footballers who come from this part of the world, playing against footballers from other parts of the world. It's as simple as that.

[Gather round]

At risk of turning this thread into a foot.ie Lisdoonvarna, I think my old chums RDB, EG and NB should meet up at a game. My birthday party at the Oberrhein stadion, Liechtenstein next March, maybe? Drinks on yours truly.

Or closer to home, since EG supports Sp*rs and RDB lives near Cashburden Grows, Arse***, what about the next North London derby? NB I think may be Chelsea, but RDB won't go there on principle. Or in practice, the way Leeds and their want-away striker are playing :)

[Not Brazil]

At risk of turning this thread into a foot.ie Lisdoonvarna, I think my old chums RDB, EG and NB should meet up at a game. My birthday party at the Oberrhein stadion, Liechtenstein next March, maybe? Drinks on yours truly.


I'll be there, and thanks very much for the invite.:)

[EalingGreen]

Finally, If those 2 gents really want to meet me, though at least one is based in N-E Ulster no(?).....suppose you could drag me down at a pinch to that pub you insist on going to in W.London? :eek:

I shall be in the Three Kings next Wednesday (6th) from around 7 pm - you'll know me, I'll have a drink in my hand...:)

[Not Brazil]

Secondly the Union Flag is flown at Windsor Park, on a flagpole beside the tunnel.

It does for Blues games, but not for Internationals.

Two official flags flew at the tunnel on Saturday - both FIFA related flags.

The Union Flag is not flown in any official capacity at Internationals in Windsor Park.

[-lamb-]

There is no such thing as a NI flag. The flag you refer to is the flag of the now defunct NI Parliament and was confirmed to have no status by the British Government in 1973.
cry me a(nother) river............
as you keep saying...and keep getting told to tell uefa/fifa etc about how outraged you feel by it since that is the flag THEY (and every other sensible person) use to represent Northern Ireland.
http://www.uefa.com/footballEurope/countries/country=NIR/Association=63/index.html
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/EURO/Teams/Team=63/index.html
http://www.fifa.com/en/organisation/confederations/associationdetails/0,1483,NIR,00.html?countrycode=NIR

i take it you're busy today as this seems a straight c'n'p of repeated posts you've made elsewhere. :rolleyes:
(a bit like most people's posts in here to be honest - slag northern ireland or try to point score against them/it, berate all associated with the place as bigots or, alternatively, defend against said staid accusations by pointing out that the majority are just blind personal opinion without much factual bearing)

[Mr_Parker]

cry me a(nother) river............
as you keep saying...and keep getting told to tell uefa/fifa etc about how outraged you feel by it since that is the flag THEY (and every other sensible person) use to represent Northern Ireland.
http://www.uefa.com/footballEurope/countries/country=NIR/Association=63/index.html
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/EURO/Teams/Team=63/index.html
http://www.fifa.com/en/organisation/confederations/associationdetails/0,1483,NIR,00.html?countrycode=NIR

i take it you're busy today as this seems a straight c'n'p of repeated posts you've made elsewhere. :rolleyes:
(a bit like most people's posts in here to be honest - slag northern ireland or try to point score against them/it, berate all associated with the place as bigots or, alternatively, defend against said staid accusations by pointing out that the majority are just blind personal opinion without much factual bearing)

Ask the IFA why they haven't informed Fifa/Uefa why they have not correct Fifa & Uefa's error on which flag they use. I have and have yet to get a straight answer in fact some of the answers I have got it in the past only confirmed the 'time warp' (could use a few other expressions at this point) some of them are in.

As for slagging Northern Ireland, you only have to read ILF or OWC over the last couple of days to see that NI fans have been quite capable of doing that for themselves.

[-lamb-]

the slagging remark wasn't specifically at you, it was at the c'n'p style posts in general that a lot of people seem to have sitting about ready to post. i know this isn't strictly true, but thats the image thats conjured.
which flag would you suggest northern ireland use btw?
if you can find me a flag thats specifically a northern ireland flag other than the one used then maybe i'll consider backing you in your quest. would you REALLY want the union flag? technically you are probably correct but in real everyday terms the flag commonly used is the one that represents northern ireland. if you want a new one, thats fits your penchant for "officialdom", may i suggest lobbying your political representatives instead of stirring on a football forum.

the slagging you are referring to involves a performance from a football team, the slagging i am referring to involves blanket calling of all northern ireland fans as sectarian bigots (something i personally find extremely offensive and bigoted in itself) and the place in its existence. thats a massive difference. i'm sure you know yourself this is untrue. it would be nice, if i am right, that that opinion was also expressed instead of picking up on a technicality.

[dcfcsteve]

which flag would you suggest northern ireland use btw? if you can find me a flag thats specifically a northern ireland flag other than the one used then maybe i'll consider backing you in your quest.

I suspect this one meets your brief, for example :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Proposed_NI_Flag.png

And it also cunningly includes elements of both traditions to a balanced degree.

[-lamb-]

no necessarily my brief steve, but maybe mr.p's.
i've seen it before. wouldn't bother me if that was my national flag. its basically the old ulster flag with elements of the current (non official, for mr.p) northern ireland flag, correct?

[Mr_Parker]

which flag would you suggest northern ireland use btw?
if you can find me a flag thats specifically a northern ireland flag other than the one used then maybe i'll consider backing you in your quest. would you REALLY want the union flag? technically you are probably correct but in real everyday terms the flag commonly used is the one that represents northern ireland. if you want a new one, thats fits your penchant for "officialdom", may i suggest lobbying your political representatives instead of stirring on a football forum.

No need to stir anything. The stance of the IFA on the subject (Uefa/Fifa websites) leaves themselves wide open. Yes I believe the Union flag would be the correct one therefore no need for me to lobby any politicos. I will just keep lobbying the football representatives and force them out of their little 'comfort zone.'
BTW you do recall the IFA jumping to the tune of the politicians, Gregory Campbell if I recall correctly, when in error Fifa website in error listed the Irish language and some other bits and bobs on their website a few tears back but were content to allow the error of the flag remain despite this being pointed out to them and which the conveniently ignored.

[-lamb-]

just because a beauracratic anomally makes this flag unusable on govt. buildings and official govt. capacities does not lessen the fact that it is generally accepted by the vast majority of people and institutions as the de facto representative flag.

isn't it in york that it is, strictly speaking, still legal to kill a scotsman with a bow and arrow? doesn't make it commonly accepted though, does it?
and just as, strictly speaking, the northern ireland flag isn't quite official doesn't mean it's not commonly accepted as the representative flag.

you still waste time posting on technicalities and not once made a comment on the slurs said about all northern ireland fans.......depressing

[dcfcsteve]

no necessarily my brief steve, but maybe mr.p's.

Well you said :


if you can find me a flag thats specifically a northern ireland flag other than the one used then maybe i'll consider backing you in your quest.

And it meets what you asked for there......

[dcfcsteve]

My only issue is that :rolleyes: if such a flag has to exist, a crown is more 'relevant', than 'the Star of David'.
Otherwise an improvement on the current b*stardised version of the Ulster flag though............

Is it the Star of David ? There are a number of theories for what it is, and the SoD is only one.

I have heard no feasible reason why the star of David would be used per se. A more feasible idea is the one that it symbolises the 6 counties.

[dcfcsteve]

just because a beauracratic anomally makes this flag unusable on govt. buildings and official govt. capacities does not lessen the fact that it is generally accepted by the vast majority of people and institutions as the de facto representative flag.

Holy fcuk Lamb - what Norn Iron do you live in ? The Stormont Ulster banner being acceptable to "the vast majority of people and institutions" ?!?! :eek:


isn't it in york that it is, strictly speaking, still legal to kill a scotsman with a bow and arrow?

You're confused with Cheshire and Welsh men there (especially given how far York is from the Scottish border !). Though it's a bit of an urban myth. Other laws have taken greater priority over that local bye-law for hundreds of years - hence why it was irrelevant whether it was actually removed or not. The UK's dependance upon case law, rather than constituional law, means there are hundreds of such ancient and quirky but irrelevant anomalies like that still in existence.

[-lamb-]

Holy fcuk Lamb - what Norn Iron do you live in ? The Stormont Ulster banner being acceptable to "the vast majority of people and institutions" ?!?! :eek:
i didn't say acceptable, i said the flag was generally accepted as the flag singly representing northern ireland.




there are hundreds of such ancient and quirky but irrelevant anomalies like that still in existence.
that was my point. the anomally exists, similar to the flag not being totally official, but doesn't mean that the anomally takes precedence over all (including reality).
in the end, the only flag that represents solely northern ireland is the one that is used by fifa and uefa. it may not be to everyones taste but its the only one available at present.

[Mr_Parker]

just because a beauracratic anomally makes this flag unusable on govt. buildings and official govt. capacities does not lessen the fact that it is generally accepted by the vast majority of people and institutions as the de facto representative flag.

isn't it in york that it is, strictly speaking, still legal to kill a scotsman with a bow and arrow? doesn't make it commonly accepted though, does it?
and just as, strictly speaking, the northern ireland flag isn't quite official doesn't mean it's not commonly accepted as the representative flag.


Generally accepted by the vast majority? Ah yes majority rule. Remind us again how majority rule led to that flags status being removed. I think Lamb it is time you go and do a wee bit of reading up on what flag represents to a sizable % of the people who live here.




you still waste time posting on technicalities and not once made a comment on the slurs said about all northern ireland fans.......depressing

Yes, lets ignore the "technicalities." I'm sure you and Gregory Campbell wouldn't mind if Fifa used the Irish tricolour then? :rolleyes:

And what are these slurs on the NI fans that I have ignored?

[Mr_Parker]

but its the only one available at present.

No it's not. The official flag, the Union flag is available.

[Dassa]

I think that we shouldnt just be looking to get a new anthem and flag for the team and country just to get nationalists to support to team but also to give this country a bit of identity. I have said in relation to the rugby that people shouldnt have to beg to feel identified with their country. In relation to NI matches it is NI and so an NI flag must be sought for and also a New NI anthem. afterall it isnt GB+NI playing.

[David]

I think that we shouldnt just be looking to get a new anthem and flag for the team and country just to get nationalists to support to team but also to give this country a bit of identity. I have said in relation to the rugby that people shouldnt have to beg to feel identified with their country. In relation to NI matches it is NI and so an NI flag must be sought for and also a New NI anthem. afterall it isnt GB+NI playing.

Before games national anthems are played, our national anthem is GSTQ so that is what should be played. Why should England be the only ones to use our national anthem?

[Dassa]

I dont think any one of the 4 home nations should use the NA of GB + NI if we play as speratate teams we should have seperate anthems.

[David]

I dont think any one of the 4 home nations should use the NA of GB + NI if we play as speratate teams we should have seperate anthems.

All entitled to our opinions but my opinion is that when national anthems are played they should play our national anthem.

[EalingGreen]

God, how I've come to loathe these "Angels Dancing on the Head of a Pin" arguments: "My flags more official than yours, nah, nah, ne nah nah". Quite simply, it's pathetic.
Let me tell you about my matchday experience. On Saturday at Heathrow I got chatting to a guy in an NI top. An amiable sort, he was going back to his first game "in a few years". Since he was on his own, I mentioned that some of the other London-based fans would be in the Globe pub in Belfast pre-match.
Anyway, I was with my mate, Davey, when I saw this guy later in the Globe, enjoying a pint and the crack with the rest of the lads.
Subsequently, on our way to the ground, Davey commented that he'd been chatting to this guy. Turns out he was Catholic; he'd been a bit apprehensive about things, but was relaxed at how "normal" everything was i.e. nobody gave a **** about any of this old crap.
Davey found this particularly interesting. You see, he comes from your standard "Prod" background, but he hates religion (of all sorts). Further, he can't abide politics; so much so that if pushed, he'd probably vote for a United Ireland - in the hope that it might be one step closer to people catching themselves on (a United States of Europe?).
He's always been more of a rugby fan than football, and had drifted away from games at Windsor some years ago because of all the crap that used to go with it. He had agreed to go to Windsor, if I went with him to Ravenhill later that evening for Ulster v Llanelli.
Anyhow, Davey was genuinely impressed by the changes he saw. Other than a reported No Surrender by a few morons during GSTQ (which we missed, since we were late in), we heard not one single objectionable comment, chant or song of a political or sectarian nature. The Kop Stand to our right - formerly the haunt of the neanderthals - was a sea of Green and White. We saw one Union Jack - amongst hundreds of banners and flags of all sorts amongst the fans (plus a Green, White and Blue version which someone had contrived).
Later, we went to Ravenhill, which was a very different experience, since rugby tends to draw a very different crowd. There was, indeed, one slightly contentious moment. Before the match, the Announcer generously welcomed those football fans who had been at Windsor earlier that day, at which point a fan with an Ulster Provincial flag (yellow and red) ran up and down chanting "Iceland". I don't know whether this was intended as a joke or as a provocation; in fact, I couldn't care less either way.
Anyhow, Ulster played quite well - David Humphries is STILL miles better than O'Gara will ever know - and the crowd went home happy.
But when I said how this was a "different" crowd, it was not so on the basis of political or religious attitudes; rather it was one of class.
Football is rooted in the working class, whilst rugby is rooted in the middle-classes. And although I come from a middle-class background myself, indeed attended a rugby school, for all that I enjoyed myself at Ravenhill, I thought that the rugger buggers were a curiously passionless lot.
Basically, the Windsor crowd provided more backing for their team, in the midst of an embarrassment on the pitch, than their Ravenhill counterparts could manage for a stirring victory.
But you know what? The rugby guys seemed quite happy with thier lot and the football fans weren't too unhappy with theirs (result notwithstanding)
And what does this tell me about supporting the NI football team?
I guess it's this. When it comes to organising international football in NI, there are two possible approaches.
One: You could try to come up with arrangements re. flags, anthems, stadium, support, selection etc which will not offend anyone. This would have the advantage of potentially attracting everyone to support the team. However, this has three drawbacks. First, there will still be people who don't actually like football. Second, there will be people who cannot ever bring themselves to support any team called "NI". Third, it's impossible. Frankly, I've come to the conclusion that the first two don't actually really matter - at least, not while faced with the third drawback i.e. some NI folks' acute ability to draw out any argument endlessly, over the most petty and futile of issues, to the nth degree of absurdity.
Which leads us to the second approach. This requires drawing up arrangements which should satisfy any reasonable supporter, regardless of background etc, even though they may required to exercise a degree of toleration over some of the fringe issues. This is what I sincerely believe that the IFA is achieving, especially through its Football For All campaign.
Now there may be some Utopians out there for whom 95% is not enough (DCFC Steve, RDB, Mr. Parker?) Fair enough.
But consider this. For me and many others like me, the arrangements at Windsor aren't 100% perfect, either. For example, I dislike having GSTQ as the NI anthem and despise the No Surrender Brigade who deface even that.
But it's my team, it's Davey's team and it's also now the bloke at Heathrow's team, and we're not going to let a few wee small-minded ****s in the stands deprive us of the opportunity to go along to Windsor and enjoy the privilege of our 90 minutes of embarrassment at the hands of a few Icelandic fishermen and sheep farmers.
Further, we are not going to be deterred either by a few detractors outside the ground who, even if they had actually been to a match recently and seen the changes, still don't appear able to see beyond their own petty little political or religious considerations, and give us a fair hearing.
To any of the former group who might be reading (unlikely, I know!), you should know by now that your time has passed.
And to the latter group, I sincerely hope you enjoyed Stuttgart, or the gardening, or B&Q or whatever else you did on Saturday: whichever it was, it was your loss.
End of Rant.

[EalingGreen]

Fair enough.....but as you know :rolleyes: re.the subject matter, everyone has an opinion! :p

Indeed. And as "Mrs. Doubtfire" put it in the film:
"Opinions are like arseholes: everyone has them, but not many bear close scrutiny".

Yours might bear more scrutiny if you took the trouble actually to attend a match. ;)

[Dassa]

Dassa et al;Why not go for 'Danny Boy' & the 'Ulster' flag as suggested by DCSteve? If ye must........

As for the dirge to the old German bag lady, many Eng.fans have a problem with it & would prefer the likes of 'Jerusalem'.
At least the Scots & Welsh have sufficient Identity, to have their own distinct anthems, nothing to do with Eng, GB & the like! :p

What ulster flag do you mean and of course many england fans have problems because it represents the UK not England individually. I dont know about DB, i think a new anthem with no history to quarrel about is needed.

[-lamb-]

And what are these slurs on the NI fans that I have ignored?
apologies, its from the "best fans in europe" thread.
you'd rather see the union flag flown? going by lots of other posts many others would find this to be even more divisive and antagonistic....how can we win?

[EalingGreen]

apologies, its from the "best fans in europe" thread.
you'd rather see the union flag flown? going by lots of other posts many others would find this to be even more divisive and antagonistic....how can we win?

With some people, you can never win, but I wouldn't worry about it - it's their problem, really.

[EalingGreen]

As for DB, is there any quarrel with this? :confused:

Probably. If you want one. I'll see what I can do.

Yep, in just 1.8 seconds, I think I've found one: It's official title is "The Londonderry Air".

There you go, RDB, let's have another 100 posts on that. However, if you'll forgive me, I'll desist from joining in, since I fear dying of boredom....:(

[Not Brazil]

As an Irish "Brit", who supports Northern Ireland, I don't think I really fancy being "united" with these chaps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5EIWA2VZZs

Wonder what Jackie Charlton and all the other "Brits" who have served the ROI over the years would make of that carry on?

It's only "a bit o craic".:rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

Not withstanding I have met a large no.of fans, this may well happen. But only incognito! :cool:

Assuming you're not e.g. Gerry Adams, Osama Bin Laiden or (worst of all) Robbie Savage, what makes you think that the rest of the support will be much bothered who you are, or what you're wearing?

Good Grief!

[Dassa]

the flag from post 199 is fine by me but its not fans who make flags official or football associations for that matter its the the govt( NI assembly should have had this in their remit).