NI support

[dcfcsteve]

Not the perception that people outside the city have and certainly not how Protestants that I know from Londonderry feel but my point was that surely a tricolour at your game alienates those from the Unionist community that may attend Derry games in the same way that a Union Flag would do to Nationalists at Northern Ireland games if you use the Derry City logic.

Let's compare statistics over the last 40 years and see whether Derry or Belfast has had the more inter-communal strife/violence shall we.....? :rolleyes:

I'll wager there hasn't been a single year where Derry has trumped Belfast - even after allowing for difference in population.

[David]

Let's compare statistics over the last 40 years and see whether Derry or Belfast has had the more inter-communal strife/violence shall we.....? :rolleyes:

I'll wager there hasn't been a single year where Derry has trumped Belfast - even after allowing for difference in population.

Where have I argued differently? All I am saying is that Londonderry, like most of this country, is a divided city so using your logic a tricolour at your game would make one side of the community not go to your games.

[David]

Look David - I really don't know if you're genuinely thick, or if you just pretend to be to serve your purposes.

Derry City is not the representative team of Northern Ireland. Nor is it even the representative team of the city of Derry, ffs, as there is another senior football club in the city.

Conversely, Northern Ireland is the reprersentative team of the province. Not just your little Loyalist/Unionist part of the province, but ALL of it.

As I said above, it's like comparing a private vehcile or small-company car driving round NI with a tricolour out the window, and a PSNI vheicle doing the same. There is clearly a massive dfifference, but you're either too simple or too bloody-minded to see it.

Now, where did I leave the headache pills. Denting the shape of my forehead onto the wall is really starting to bite....

And the Union Flag is the flag of all of this country and not just part of it. Some choose not to recognise it as such and that is their choice but the fact remains that it is the official flag of Northern Ireland and there is therefore nothing whatsoever wrong in it being displayed at Northern Ireland games. You throw accusations of being thick towards me when really this is quite simple but you cannot seem to grasp it, when our country is playing it is perfectly valid to display the flag of our country just like countries all over the world do. If someone says they will not go because of a flag I feel they are simply making excuses and if that is removed then they will find something else to complain about. For evidence of that just check out the Linfield True Blues thread where some feel the name of our mascot could offend some.

[dcfcsteve]

And the Union Flag is the flag of all of this country and not just part of it. Some choose not to recognise it as such and that is their choice but the fact remains that it is the official flag of Northern Ireland and there is therefore nothing whatsoever wrong in it being displayed at Northern Ireland games.

* Sound of head banging against wall begins again in the middle-distance....*

[David]

* Sound of head banging against wall begins again in the middle-distance....*


Oh I forgot, you are not too keen on facts. :rolleyes:

[Gather round]

Heh. This reminds me of that old Spitting Image sketch where the Liberal and Social Democratic Parties were arguing about what to call themselves after merger.

'OK, David, we'll take the "Republic of" part of our our name and add it to the "Iron" part of your name'...

Speranza- I suppose it has occured to you that parroting 'you shouldn't exist' is likely to get 'yes but we do exist' as a response (and vice-versa, of course).

The current 'row' about the Ireland- Italy rugby at Ravenhill shows a compromise (although to be fair to IPJ, he says he doesn't want to make an exaggerated issue of it).

Let's have Ireland's call or similar at all Lansdowne and Windsor internationals this term. What d'ye think, boys?

[David]

Heh. This reminds me of that old Spitting Image sketch where the Liberal and Social Democratic Parties were arguing about what to call themselves after merger.

'OK, David, we'll take the "Republic of" part of our our name and add it to the "Iron" part of your name'...

Speranza- I suppose it has occured to you that parroting 'you shouldn't exist' is likely to get 'yes but we do exist' as a response (and vice-versa, of course).

The current 'row' about the Ireland- Italy rugby at Ravenhill shows a compromise (although to be fair to IPJ, he says he doesn't want to make an exaggerated issue of it).

Let's have Ireland's call or similar at all Lansdowne and Windsor internationals this term. What d'ye think, boys?


That will not be sufficient for them as what they want is to keep their identity and for us to remove ours.

[Speranza]

Speranza- I suppose it has occured to you that parroting 'you shouldn't exist' is likely to get 'yes but we do exist' as a response (and vice-versa, of course).

This debate is not about the right of the six counties to exist as a country. I was merely stating fact when I said that my nationalist views are the reason that I would never support NI.

David, I wouldn't be as narrow minded as yourself in my views to sectarianism but before you consult your unionist friends from Derry you should read up on a few facts. This Summer 3 young Derry men have ended up in intensive care after sectarian assualts, the 3 were all Nationalists. A leading UPRG politican shockingly said recently that the people of the oppressed:rolleyes: Fountain didn't want peace with their Nationalist neighbours - that blows your unionists are oppressed in Derry theory out of the water.

[dcfcsteve]

Let's have Ireland's call or similar at all Lansdowne and Windsor internationals this term. What d'ye think, boys?

Despite the fact that Amhrann na bhFiann isn't a contentious anthem in the Republic, and that the Republic isn't a socially fractured society currently emerging from 40 years of near-civil warfare like the North, I'd still go with that suggestion. That's the way progressive people think, you see....

At least you don't feel the need to cling to GSTQ like a culturally needy child scared that without the opportunity to ostentiously declare your undying love of the monarchy that you, somehow, might wake up tomorrow just that little bit less British.

And as we're expanding it beyond the north into uncontentious issues like the South's anthem, in gambling parlance I'll see your Amhran na bhFiann and raise you a GSTQ at Wembley/Old Trafford/wherever. You'll find there's more opposition to that anthem amongst England fans than there is to Amhrann na bhFiann amongst Irish ones.

[David]

This debate is not about the right of the six counties to exist as a country. I was merely stating fact when I said that my nationalist views are the reason that I would never support NI.

David, I wouldn't be as narrow minded as yourself in my views to sectarianism but before you consult your unionist friends from Derry you should read up on a few facts. This Summer 3 young Derry men have ended up in intensive care after sectarian assualts, the 3 were all Nationalists. A leading UPRG politican shockingly said recently that the people of the oppressed:rolleyes: Fountain didn't want peace with their Nationalist neighbours - that blows your unionists are oppressed in Derry theory out of the water.

My theory? Where have I expressed such a theory? All I said was that there are sectarian problems in Londonderry which you seem to be proving for me.

[dcfcsteve]

That will not be sufficient for them as what they want is to keep their identity and for us to remove ours.

Who exactly are "them" David ? :confused:

And how many times do I have to say that it's not about anyone losing anything. It's about neither side owning that which claims to represent us all. The Northern team could sing 'When the boat comes in' and you'd still be British, I'd still be Irish, and the world would keep on turning.

Or are you saying that it would stop you being British any longer if the Northern Irish team stopped singing GSTQ ? Would it make you any less British than you are now if they did ? If not - then how have u lost any of your identity ?? :confused:

[David]

At least you don't feel the need to cling to GSTQ like a culturally needy child scared that without the opportunity to ostentiously declare your undying love of the monarchy that you, somehow, might wake up tomorrow just that little bit less British.


What gives you the right to insult anyone who wants their national anthem played when.........ummmm........national anthems are played before the game. And you call me thick? By the way I can completely accept (and have already done so in this thread) the abolishing of all national anthems before games but until such times, when national anthems are played that is what I want, the national anthem of Northern ireland which is GSTQ.

[David]

Who exactly are "them" David ? :confused:

And how many times do I have to say that it's not about anyone losing anything. It's about neither side owning that which claims to represent us all. The Northern team could sing 'When the boat comes in' and you'd still be British, I'd still be Irish, and the world would keep on turning.

Or are you saying that it would stop you being British any longer if the Northern Irish team stopped singing GSTQ ? Would it make you any less British than you are now if they did ? If not - then how have u lost any of your identity ?? :confused:

Not at all, like I say above, all I want is the national anthem of Northern ireland played when they play national anthems before a Northern Ireland game. Hardly rocket science is it?

[dcfcsteve]

Not at all, like I say above, all I want is the national anthem of Northern ireland played when they play national anthems before a Northern Ireland game. Hardly rocket science is it?

Then you'll just have to aceppt that doing that and playing under the Union Flag and/or Stormont flag will alienate a large section of the province. Which could have implications on funding etc.

You can dismiss it all you like by claiming more Catholics wouldn't support the north even if changes were made. But that would be like saying 'My wife left me last year because I was an alcoholic. I only drink a wee bit these days, but she says she won't come back until I'm fully on the wagon. But I don't reckon she'll ever come back anyway, so why should I bother giving up the drink ?".

Until such a time as the NI team presents itself as the exclusive property of neither communtiy in the province, you'll never actually know how many extra Catholics it could attract. And until then, you have no right to bemoan the fact that few Catholics support the team.

[David]

Then you'll just have to aceppt that doing that and playing under the Union Flag and/or Stormont flag will alienate a large section of the province. Which could have implications on funding etc.

You can dismiss it all you like by claiming more Catholics wouldn't support the north even if changes were made. But that would be like saying 'My wife left me last year because I was an alcoholic. I only drink a wee bit these days, but she says she won't come back until I'm fully on the wagon. But I don't reckon she'll ever come back anyway, so why should I bother giving up the drink ?".

Until such a time as the NI team presents itself as the exclusive property of neither communtiy in the province, you'll never actually know how many extra Catholics it could attract. And until then, you have no right to bemoan the fact that few Catholics support the team.

Who is bemoaning the fact? Derry City supporters are the only ones mentioning it. If people can't come to a Northern Ireland game and accept that they will hear the national anthem of orthern Ireland and see a few official flags of Northern Ireland then to me someone like that is no big loss, they are merely looking excuses not to be there. Do you accept that a tricolour at a Derry City game will alienate a section (although seemingly a dwindling section) of Londonderry.

[MariborKev]

Who is bemoaning the fact? Derry City supporters are the only ones mentioning it. If people can't come to a Northern Ireland game and accept that they will hear the national anthem of orthern Ireland and see a few official flags of Northern Ireland then to me someone like that is no big loss, they are merely looking excuses not to be there. Do you accept that a tricolour at a Derry City game will alienate a section (although seemingly a dwindling section) of Londonderry.


A tricolour with "Dublin Derry City SC" on it will alienate Protestants

The saltaire with "Scottish Derry City SC" will alienate non Scots

The Che Guevara flag with a City scarf will alienate Capitalists

The Queens University Derry City Supporters Flag will alienate lads from the Poly

The London SC flag will alienate those non-Londoners amongst the City support.

Catch yerself on David.


I have been a regular attender at Windsor Park, both before and after "Football for All" started.

Has there been huge improvements? Yes
Is it much less intimidating than it was? Yes

However personally I still feel that I shouldn't feel guilty for saying that I would prefer a "new anthem". You talk of your identity being taking away, yet you feel unable to allow for the Catholics, such as myself, who feel as if our identity isn't represented.

You summed it up some pages back when you classed yourself as British and then Northern Irish. Hand over ther baton to some of the more progressive thinkers amongst the OWC support, and there are many, as they can debate this much more effectively than you.

[David]

A tricolour with "Dublin Derry City SC" on it will alienate Protestants

The saltaire with "Scottish Derry City SC" will alienate non Scots

The Che Guevara flag with a City scarf will alienate Capitalists

The Queens University Derry City Supporters Flag will alienate lads from the Poly

The London SC flag will alienate those non-Londoners amongst the City support.



Can't you see that you are making my point here, those that want to find offence will find it no matter what. As for me being British first and foremost, yes I have no problem in saying that and don't see that as anything to be ashamed of, as for you saying that I am not forward thinking, I think I would prefer to listen to people who actually know me on that one.

[MariborKev]

as for you saying that I am not forward thinking, I think I would prefer to listen to people who actually know me on that one.

David you have freely admitted that you haven't been at Windsor in several years.

I have attended numerous games since me da first took me to a friendly against Sweden in the mid 90s(Dahlin scored).

We were block bookers when they were ****e. I can remember watching them get beat at home by Armenia IIRC.

I have been at several games in recent campaigns, but it is getting harder to get tickets these days.

As an unashamed middle class Catholic I am proud to say I am Northern Irish first, then Irish second.

You can't see to grasp the fact that the status quo makes me slightly uncomfortable. I stand for God Save the Queen but it is one of the few moments in the whole thing where I don't feel part of it.

Listen to the opposition anthem at the next game(assuming it ain't England), and imagine that was Northern Ireland's. Would you feel any connection to it, does it represent you?

If you can't see that your are alienating entire chunks of the populous then fair enough. Changing the anthem or flag only takes away your identity if you let it, but the change can broaden that identity to includes so many more at the same time.

[David]

David you have freely admitted that you haven't been at Windsor in several years.

I have attended numerous games since me da first took me to a friendly against Sweden in the mid 90s(Dahlin scored).

We were block bookers when they were ****e. I can remember watching them get beat at home by Armenia IIRC.

I have been at several games in recent campaigns, but it is getting harder to get tickets these days.

As an unashamed middle class Catholic I am proud to say I am Northern Irish first, then Irish second.

You can't see to grasp the fact that the status quo makes me slightly uncomfortable. I stand for God Save the Queen but it is one of the few moments in the whole thing where I don't feel part of it.

Listen to the opposition anthem at the next game(assuming it ain't England), and imagine that was Northern Ireland's. Would you feel any connection to it, does it represent you?

If you can't see that your are alienating entire chunks of the populous then fair enough. Changing the anthem or flag only takes away your identity if you let it, but the change can broaden that identity to includes so many more at the same time.

Why do people keep misquoting me? Where have I said that I have not been at a game in several years? That Armenia game that you mentioned, I too was there. I was there all through the period that we could not score a goal. I only stopped going at the start of the last World Cup qualifying campaign because of the unavailability of tickets.

As for the British flag and anthem, what is offensive in either. Yes I can accept that you may not feel part of it and that is fair enough but I cannot see how it would offend you and it is our national anthem and our flag, it is part and parcel of Northern Ireland in the same way that Le Marseillaise (sp) and the French flag is part and parcel of France and the Soldiers Song and the tricolour are part and parcel of Ireland.

I don't want these things because for some obscure reason some people find them offensive (and I would love to know what people find offensive in either), I want them because they are our national anthem and our flag, it really is as simple as that. I can fully respect the opinion of Northern Ireland supporters who want an anthem unique to Northern Ireland. The reason I respect it is that it is not being political when they say it, it is there personal choice. Others are calling on it to be removed for political reasons. Whilst respecting the opinion of some Northern Ireland fans on this, I personally disagree with them, as would many other Northern Ireland fans. Not Brazil has stated that he is in favour of an anthem change and he is someone that I respect. I have worked alongside him with stuff at Linfield and I agree with him on many many things, this one I disagree with him on and I am certain he will respect my opinion. That is what it is all about, respecting others opinions, something that seems alien to Derry City fans. If I am at any event in the south and the Soldiers Song is played then I will have no problem whatsoever in standing for it and would feel in no way uncomfortable in doing so, it is the national anthem of the country that I am in and I would respect it in the same way that I would respect any other national anthem. Why can people not give the Northern Ireland national anthem the same courtesy when in this country?

People say Scotland and Wales have their own anthems for games despite being British and that is a very valid point. However in Scotland The Brave and Land of My Fathers they have traditional songs of their country already in place. In my opinion we do not have that and I would be against a fabrciated song written solely for this purpose to try to appease people that are rarely if ever going to go to games any way. I accept totally that it would also meet with the approval of some Northern Ireland fans but I still disagree with it. Just my opinion but holding that opinion does not make me a dinosaur, a bigot or lacking in forward thinking. I am British, that is me and I am proud to be British and when some people in this country stop attaching some sort of stigma to that and looking down on people who feel this way then maybe we can really make some progress in this beautiful country of ours.

[EalingGreen]

I have been a regular attender at Windsor Park, both before and after "Football for All" started.

Has there been huge improvements? Yes
Is it much less intimidating than it was? Yes

However personally I still feel that I shouldn't feel guilty for saying that I would prefer a "new anthem". You talk of your identity being taking away, yet you feel unable to allow for the Catholics, such as myself, who feel as if our identity isn't represented.

You summed it up some pages back when you classed yourself as British and then Northern Irish. Hand over ther baton to some of the more progressive thinkers amongst the OWC support, and there are many, as they can debate this much more effectively than you.

I have been reading this debate between DCFCSteve and David with increasing bewilderment. How people can invest so much energy in squabbling over pretty much irrelevant or unimportant details is beyond me - especially when it serves only to detract from the real issue, which is a football match.

As I see it, David is misguided in thinking that following the NI football team in some way validates or reinforces his Britishness. Yes, NI is part of the UK and therefore its anthem is GSTQ and official flag is the UJ. So what? In the end, GSTQ is merely two minutes before the match and as such, pretty much unimportant to the main proceedings. The UJ doesn't fly at NI internationals (and very few fans carry it now, as well). FIFA/UEFA require that National Flags be flown, so for NI, this is the NI flag. Frankly, it can't even be seen from 2/3 of the ground and the rest of us don't spend our time staring at it any more than we do the floodlight pylons. People like David should try, however, to understand how these may make Catholics/Nationalists uncomfortable. Then, remind themselves that when rugby fans from NI go to Lansdowne for a match, where they fly the Tricolour and play The Soldiers Song (neither of which represents our particular part of Ireland), the best attitude is "Stand Up, Shut Up, then Sit Down and Enjoy the Bloody Game". (At least, that is what I do - it does not make me any more "Oirish" or any less "British" - or, at least, it didn't the last time I looked)

As for Steve, I have to say, your reading of what actually goes on at NI matches - home and away - appears somewhat outdated and misinformed. It is no longer a Prod- or BritFest i.e. an opportunity for the Billy Boys to prove their "loyalty" and keep the Taigs in their place (in so far as it ever was). Really determined attempts both at Official Level (e.g. the IFA's "Football For All") and Unofficial Level (e.g. Sea of Green), plus the Block Booking process, have been hugely successful in eradicating the majority of previous bad behaviour.
Of course, there are still isolated individuals who have yet to catch up with the evolutionary process, but like the rest of the Dinosaurs, it is to be hoped that they will die out in time.
As such, they are about as typical of the mainstream NI support as those individuals at ROI matches who e.g. booed Holland's Rangers players, or waved Palestinian flags at the Israel team, or shout "Up the RA" during the Field of Athenry are of ROI mainstream fans i.e. not at all.

Therefore I feel Maribor has got it spot on - with a degree of tolerance and reason on all sides, there is no compelling reason why someone from a Nationalist background cannot support NI, just as there should be no remark passed should they prefer to support the ROI. It's all about choosing which is the most comfortable and inspiring atmosphere to enjoy a game of football and all the crack that goes with it.

Beyond that, all I would say to Steve is this:
You have indicated that you have still got some residual "feeling" for the NI team - even if certain circumstances deter you from taking it further. Can I suggest that you make the effort to attend a game? I'm sure I could arrange a spare ticket or two and I'd be happy for you to be my guest when next I travel back to Belfast from London. If you still don't like it, then fair enough, but I am very confident that you will be pleasantly surprised. You might even bump into one or two of your Derry City mates!

As for David, I think you need to chill: it's a football match we're talking about, no more than that. Different fans invest different passions into the game, nobody needs to prove or disprove anything - the only thing that really counts is that we can get behind 11 lads doing their best for our wee part of the world for 90 minutes.

For the record, even though I don't carry one, I personally am quite happy with the NI flag, but would prefer to see (the dirge-like) GSTQ replaced as an Anthem by something peculiarly Northern Irish - after all, it is NI I support in football, not the UK. (Re this latter point, I wouldn't be surprised if I was in a majority of the support - or near it, at least)

Beyond that, if there should be any other ex-NI fans out there, whose allegiance has transferred to the ROI, you might consider coming back into the fold, as well. After all, with the way our teams' respective fortunes seem to be shaping up on the field, if you leave it too late, you might just get a name for being "glory-hunters", that is, when we overtake you on your way down! ;)

Bring On The Mighty Icelanders! :D

[David]

I
As I see it, David is misguided in thinking that following the NI football team in some way validates or reinforces his Britishness. Yes, NI is part of the UK and therefore its anthem is GSTQ and official flag is the UJ. So what? In the end, GSTQ is merely two minutes before the match and as such, pretty much unimportant to the main proceedings. The UJ doesn't fly at NI internationals (and very few fans carry it now, as well). FIFA/UEFA require that National Flags be flown, so for NI, this is the NI flag. Frankly, it can't even be seen from 2/3 of the ground and the rest of us don't spend our time staring at it any more than we do the floodlight pylons. People like David should try, however, to understand how these may make Catholics/Nationalists uncomfortable. Then, remind themselves that when rugby fans from NI go to Lansdowne for a match, where they fly the Tricolour and play The Soldiers Song (neither of which represents our particular part of Ireland), the best attitude is "Stand Up, Shut Up, then Sit Down and Enjoy the Bloody Game". (At least, that is what I do - it does not make me any more "Oirish" or any less "British" - or, at least, it didn't the last time I looked)



I don't feel it validates or reinforces my Britishness. Why can people not understand the simple thing that I am saying? It is my belief that when national anthems are played before a Northern Ireland game that the national anthem of Northern Ireland should be played. Whilst I have never done so myself I also believe that there is nothing wrong whatsoever with someone having the Union Flag at a Northern Ireland game as it is the official flag of Northern Ireland. I do not need to "validate and reinforce my Britishness" because it is what I am. I am British and nothing anyone says or does will make me feel less so and what I will not tolerate is the demonising of people like myself who feel there is nothing wrong whatsoever in feeling that way.

[MariborKev]

I am British and nothing anyone says or does will make me feel less so and what I will not tolerate is the demonising of people like myself who feel there is nothing wrong whatsoever in feeling that way.

David,

If nothing anyone does will make you feel less British, what is your porblem with my aspirations for a new flag and anthem that better reflects the true Northern Ireland ie, a state with numerous traditions......

[EalingGreen]

I am British and nothing anyone says or does will make me feel less so and what I will not tolerate is the demonising of people like myself who feel there is nothing wrong whatsoever in feeling that way.

In the sporting context, when e.g. I watch the Olympics, I am British. When I go to Lansdowne for a rugby match, I am Irish. And when I go to Windsor for a football match, I am Northern Irish.

I would never "demonise" you for feeling "British" at Windsor, but I just don't "get" it myself, especially when my team is playing England, Scotland or Wales.

Similarly, I would never "demonise" those Northern Nationalists who cannot bring themselves to support NI. However, I don't "get" their emotional detachment from the team either, since in practice, there is no longer any threat, intimidation or lack of welcome for them and I don't see that their political viewpoint need override their sporting affiliations. (Let's face it, half the NI team might be Nationalist or Republican when they go to cast their vote at an Election, but it doesn't stop them opting to represent NI at football, nor should it, imo)

For me, sport and politics should be kept separate. I follow the NI football team because I'm a football fan who comes from Northern Ireland - no more or less than that.

[Gather round]

Welcome aboard Ealing Green. BTW, you'd have enjoyed the craic/crack in the Famous Three Kings pub, London, last week. Assembled Ulster exiles, plus sundry Poles and Germans watching their teams on the other screens, joined us for a rousing version of that old Boney M classic, "La la Lafferty, Fermanagh's favourite goal machine". As the big man from Kesh easily beat a very ordinary Hyppia to put our boys 2-0 ahead in Helsinki :)

[EalingGreen]

Welcome aboard Ealing Green. BTW, you'd have enjoyed the craic/crack in the Famous Three Kings pub, London, last week. Assembled Ulster exiles, plus sundry Poles and Germans watching their teams on the other screens, joined us for a rousing version of that old Boney M classic, "La la Lafferty, Fermanagh's favourite goal machine". As the big man from Kesh easily beat a very ordinary Hyppia to put our boys 2-0 ahead in Helsinki :)


Thanks, GR. As it happens, I couldn't make The Three Kings* last week, due only to personal circumstances. However, I'm sure I'll see you there sometime soon - if I haven't already! ;)
Btw, what was the next line to the song? "There was a cat that really was gone" doesn't quite cut it...



* - I used to drink in 'The Three Kings' before it was "Famous" :)

[Not Brazil]

Ahem,

NORTHERN IRELAND FANS ARE OFFICIALLY
THE BEST FANS IN EUROPE

NORTHERN IRELAND international football Fans have been officially crowned the best football Supporters in Europe after winning the prestigious, EU and UEFA endorsed, Brussels International Supporters Award 2006!

IFA Head of Community Relations, Michael Boyd, who nominated the Northern Ireland football Fans was delighted with the result:

“I nominated one fan, called Jim Rainey, on behalf of the Amalgamation of Official Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs (AONISC). Jim represents all that is great about the AONISC and has been at the heart of their extraordinary charity efforts, promotion of good relations both at home and abroad; and he has been instrumental in the Northern Ireland Fan’s Football For All campaign that has brought so many families back to support Northern Ireland in an atmosphere free from sectarianism”.

Jonathon Hill from UEFA stated “The work Jim Rainey and the Northern Ireland Fans carry out to tackle sectarianism embodies the spirit of the award. Their Football For All campaign is a shining example to all Supporters around the world of how Fans can coordinate their efforts to create a more fun, passionate and inclusive atmosphere throughout football”.

A delighted Jim Rainey added, "It's a great honour for me to know that at last the Northern Ireland fans have been recognised by UEFA for the sterling work they do to make supporting Northern Ireland such an experience. We have used the spirit of football to extend the hand of friendship around the globe, whilst never missing the opportunity to help those less fortunate than ourselves.

All of this would not have been possible without the support of the Amalgamation of Official NISCs, the Ourweecountry website/fans' forum and the IFA's Football for All initiative. Together we have improved the atmosphere at Northern Ireland matches, at the same time helping charities at home and abroad to the tune of £82,000 over the last five years."

:cool:

[David]

David,

If nothing anyone does will make you feel less British, what is your porblem with my aspirations for a new flag and anthem that better reflects the true Northern Ireland ie, a state with numerous traditions......

I really do give up. All over the world people take pride in their national anthem and their flag being displayed at international games yet you want to deny that right to Northern Ireland supporters.

[MariborKev]

Not Brazil,

JimR will be part of the Linfield contingent in the Brandywell tomorrow night. We taught him all he knows...........:D

[MariborKev]

I really do give up. All over the world people take pride in their national anthem and their flag being displayed at international games yet you want to deny that right to Northern Ireland supporters.

David,

You really can't seem to grasp the fact that even as a Northern Ireland fan that flag and anthem doesn't represent me.

Apologies for having the audacity to wish for one that will.....

[David]

David,

You really can't seem to grasp the fact that even as a Northern Ireland fan that flag and anthem doesn't represent me.

Apologies for having the audacity to wish for one that will.....

Surely you can't pick or choose a national anthem?

[Krstic]

Surely you can't pick or choose a national anthem?


Why not?
How do you think countries get them, a lottery?:rolleyes:

[David]

Why not?
How do you think countries get them, a lottery?:rolleyes:

Wise up, it is obvious that I was referring to individuals. We have no control over what is the national anthem of our country. At the minute that is GSTQ so that is what should be played when our country play international games.

[Stiof]

David, our wee country is going through a lot of change at the minute...a devolved government (hopefully) is in the offing, one which is representative of the whole population - instead of of a protestant government for a protestant people. So why not a new national anthem which is representative of the whole population as well....?

[David]

David, our wee country is going through a lot of change at the minute...a devolved government (hopefully) is in the offing, one which is representative of the whole population - instead of of a protestant government for a protestant people. So why not a new national anthem which is representative of the whole population as well....?

If a devolved government chooses to change the official national anthem of Northern Ireland then so be it and I would have no problem at all with that being played at games. Until such times the existing official national anthem should be played.

[Not Brazil]

Not Brazil,

JimR will be part of the Linfield contingent in the Brandywell tomorrow night. We taught him all he knows...........:D

I know.;)

He's a close friend of mine, and my room mate on away trips.

[Not Brazil]

To be fair to their critics, the Six Counties which represents 2/3rds of the province have a b*stardised Ulster flag & a tribute to some minor part of the German aristocracy as their 'anthem'........Original,Not.
Plus at most they only represent 50% at best of their population, allowing for the 'super-Prod' Eng.fans & Nats. who support Ireland.

Still have met a fair few of their fans who are regular fans......most of them are OK on an individual basis(They will even admit there could well be a UI team one day!:p ), though some are only tolerable only in small doses!

Quite amazing then that you wish to "unite" with these people.:eek: :rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

David, our wee country is going through a lot of change at the minute...a devolved government (hopefully) is in the offing, one which is representative of the whole population - instead of of a protestant government for a protestant people. So why not a new national anthem which is representative of the whole population as well....?

Er, there's something you appear to be missing entirely. Governments, Devolution etc are political concepts, whereas we are (or should be) talking about football.
As I see it, if you're from NI and wish to play for, or support, the NI football team, then great. If, however, you don't, then fair enough - nobody should be forced to do something like this against their will.
Of course, we should look at the conditions surrounding the whole experience of supporting NI, in case certain groups who might otherwise be supporters are being unfairly or improperly excluded.

From my own long experience, these appear to fall into two categories.
The first can be termed the "atmosphere". Nobody connected with the team denies that for a long period, there was an unwelcoming, occasionally intimidating, atmosphere for Catholics/Nationalists at Windsor.
Equally, however, no one should deny that this has been successfully addressed, so that the matchday atmosphere now poses no inhibition to any open-minded football fan who might wish to come along.
Of course, there are some (many?) people within the Nationalist community who do not accept this. Sadly, this appears to me to be down to misinformation and long memories. (Perhaps you suffer from the latter, Stiof, with your reference to a "Protestant Parliament" etc? After all, the original statement was made in Stormont, I think, in the 1920's, in response to a "Catholic equivalent" in the Dail of the time. And Stormont was closed 34 years ago).
However, if people can/will not accept from me that things have changed, I can dig out supporting accounts from people who might not ordinarily be expected to hold much love for Windsor Park!

The second category is what I would term the "trappings" of the matchday experience. Invariably, these boil down to anthems and flags.
Regarding the anthem, whether people like it not, GSTQ is the recognised anthem of NI, it being the UK anthem and NI being part of the UK.
In an earlier post, Maribor (whose posts I greatly respect), stated that this anthem does not "represent" him. Of course, I know what he means, but in fact, at least for the moment it does "represent" him! After all, Gerry Adams is the MP for West Belfast, which includes Linfield and Windsor Park within its boundaries, so he "represents" them just as surely!
For my own part, I wish GSTQ were replaced by something distinctively and uncontroversially "Norn Irish" (Danny Boy?), since it is the NI team I follow, not a UK team. As such, increasing numbers of fellow fans concur.
Regarding the flag, just as Windsor Park was named after the Windsor Mill, years before the Saxe-Coburg Gotha/Battenburg family adopted the name "Windsor", the UJ does not fly over Windsor Park.
It is a FIFA requirement that a national flag be flown at international games, and the "Stormont Banner" (to give it its correct title!) is the one we have.
It is also the one almost universally adopted by NI fans, to replace the UJs which many previously carried, although these days, the big majority drape themselves in at least 40 Shades of Green on matchdays!
Of course, I understand why Nationalists may feel uncomfortable. But whereas all are entitled to consideration for their feelings, you cannot have "half" a country, or something so diluted as to be a different country entirely, when we are talking about international football.
As a fan, you can't be "neutral" in your support, therefore a representative team cannot be "neutral". (Just as Gerry Adams can't be 85% SF and 15% Loyalist, like his Constituency!)
It's rather like the ROI team, which a few years back had many English-born players and manager whose links with with the Republic were often tenuous, to say the least. No-one ever suggested that the ROI's identity should in some way be diluted, in deference to these people's "Saxon" roots e.g by replacing the Soldiers Song with something else.

However, I sincerely don't want Nationalists to feel that they are therefore faced with a "take it or leave it" choice over flag and anthem, since that is to frame the question wrongly.
Instead, what is required is to re-frame the question on a sporting basis. The best example I can think of is when I go to Lansdowne to support the Irish Rugby team. I do not like the SS or Tricolour, since they really don't represent fans from NI like me. Personally, I would prefer if either both countries represented by the Ireland team were reflected, or (better still), the political/constitutional element were removed entirely, by just having Irelands Call and the Four provinces flag.
But in the end, it's only sport not war. I have always thought it far better just to show a degree of tolerance, respect flag and emblem for a couple of minutes and wait for the game to start.
And if that example doesn't persuade, then the best I can suggest is that of Gerry Armstrong, possibly NI's most popular player of the last 40 years. He is known to be proud of his roots in Beechmount and the Lower Falls. In his youth, he was a junior GAA star, representing his club at Croke Park (I believe).
He has never seen any problem with reconciling his love for Gaelic Games, organised on an all-Ireland basis, with his love for football, where he was a proud Northern Irishman.
I guess that's because whatever his own political opinion (of which no NI fan knows or cares), he was quite capable of distinguishing between politics and sport.
Which brings us back to the NI team. I am from NI, I'm interested in football, so I support the NI team. As such, no-one either forces me to, nor prevents me from doing so. I honestly know of no good reason why anyone else from NI should feel any differently unless, of course, they choose to.
In which case, it is not only our loss, but also theirs.

[David]

Excellent post Ealing Green although a few corrections. Windsor Park is not in West Belfast, it is in South Belfast although your point still stands. Adams is actually my MP and is MP for half the Shankill area. Secondly the Union Flag is flown at Windsor Park, on a flagpole beside the tunnel.

[Mr_Parker]

The UJ doesn't fly at NI internationals (and very few fans carry it now, as well). FIFA/UEFA require that National Flags be flown, so for NI, this is the NI flag.

EG, I haven't read through all the replies and I am not sure if this has already been mentioned but it is the Union Flag that flies over Windsor at NI games. There is no such thing as a NI flag. The flag you refer to is the flag of the now defunct NI Parliament and was confirmed to have no status by the British Government in 1973.

[Mr_Parker]

Ahem,

NORTHERN IRELAND FANS ARE OFFICIALLY
THE BEST FANS IN EUROPE


Ahem nothing. Be careful with being carried away with the spin on that story. One fan was nominated and was awarded the title Best fan in the EU.

[Krstic]

Er, there's something you appear to be missing entirely. Governments, Devolution etc are political concepts, whereas we are (or should be) talking about football.

Sadly, this appears to me to be down to misinformation and long memories. (Perhaps you suffer from the latter, Stiof, with your reference to a "Protestant Parliament" etc? After all, the original statement was made in Stormont, I think, in the 1920's, in response to a "Catholic equivalent" in the Dail of the time. And Stormont was closed 34 years ago).


You start by lambasting Stiof for mixing Sport and politics.

Then you rattle into the old Unionist/Loyalist chestnut, that everything they do is 'Reactionary to the actions of Dublin,Republicans,Nationalists anything that they can think of '

I love it, you couldn't write that material.........................oh wait you did:eek:

[Paddy Ramone]

I am British and nothing anyone says or does will make me feel less so and what I will not tolerate is the demonising of people like myself who feel there is nothing wrong whatsoever in feeling that way.

What is now Northern Ireland only became British in 1801 along with rest of Ireland in the Act of Union. The first Protestant settlers in the late 1500's were Scottish (following Gaelic speaking Highland Scots in Glens of Antrim) and regarded themselves as Scottish not English. Some of the new arrivals from Galloway and Ayrshire even spoke Gaelic.

They were followed by English planters in 1600's. Some of the descendants of English settlers came to regard themselves as Irish like Wolfe Tone. Most of the United Irishmen of 1798 who fought against the British government were Presbyterians of Scottish descent. Identity can change over time.

[David]

What is now Northern Ireland only became British in 1801 along with rest of Ireland in the Act of Union. The first Protestant settlers in the late 1500's were Scottish (following Gaelic speaking Highland Scots in Glens of Antrim) and regarded themselves as Scottish not English. Some of the new arrivals from Galloway and Ayrshire even spoke Gaelic.

They were followed by English planters in 1600's. Some of the descendants of English settlers came to regard themselves as Irish like Wolfe Tone. Most of the United Irishmen of 1798 who fought against the British government were Presbyterians of Scottish descent. Identity can change over time.

Only if you want it to.

[Not Brazil]

Ahem nothing. Be careful with being carried away with the spin on that story. One fan was nominated and was awarded the title Best fan in the EU.

My good friend Jim was nominated "on behalf of the Amalgamation Of Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs"

Jonathon Hill from UEFA stated “The work Jim Rainey and the Northern Ireland Fans carry out to tackle sectarianism embodies the spirit of the award. Their Football For All campaign is a shining example to all Supporters around the world of how Fans can coordinate their efforts to create a more fun, passionate and inclusive atmosphere throughout football”.

;)

[EalingGreen]

EG, I haven't read through all the replies and I am not sure if this has already been mentioned but it is the Union Flag that flies over Windsor at NI games. There is no such thing as a NI flag. The flag you refer to is the flag of the now defunct NI Parliament and was confirmed to have no status by the British Government in 1973.

I may be wrong (I don't actually spend my time at Windsor staring at the top of the stands, funnily enough), but as I recall, the flags that fly "officially" on top of the main stand at internationals are the NI flag*, the flag of the visiting team and the UEFA (or FIFA) flag.
The NI flag is the one recognised by UEFA as being representative of the international football team:
http://www.uefa.com/footballEurope/countries/country=NIR/Association=63/index.html

David states in another post that a UJ flies from a pole by the tunnel. I'll take his word, since he would know better than I, though I can't recall seeing it (once again, I tend to look at the players as they emerge...)
Maybe this is a Linfield thing?

* - You are quite correct that what you and I both refer to as the NI flag no longer has any political or constitutional status. And its correct title is the Stormont Banner, if you want to be picky.;)

[EalingGreen]

You start by lambasting Stiof for mixing Sport and politics.

Then you rattle into the old Unionist/Loyalist chestnut, that everything they do is 'Reactionary to the actions of Dublin,Republicans,Nationalists anything that they can think of '

I love it, you couldn't write that material.........................oh wait you did:eek:

Actually, Krstic, in the midst of an interesting thread about the NI football support, Stiof suddenly intervenes with a post about the changing nature of NI politics.

My reply was an attempt to get the thread back onto footballing matters, by pointing out the irrelevance of his contribution. In passing, I also allowed myself to point out that even for a political thread, his post was somewhat lacking in context, as well as being overtaken by modern events. I accept that this was remiss of me and I thank you for pointing that out. You can mark that down as your "Good Deed for the Day"...

[EalingGreen]

Mr.Rainey fair enough. The latter part of the sentence implies though it's a 'collective' thing;Hmm......Not quite! :p

BRUSSELS INTERNATIONAL SUPPORTERS AWARD 2006

AWARDING CRITERIA AND RECOMMENDED VALUES

The prize awarded by the City of Brussels and its partners aims to honour supporters (ad-hoc groups, organised supporters associations or clubs) who, in their behaviour, attitude or initiatives have symbolised the values of friendliness, celebration and respect for supporters and players from opposing teams.
These positive gestures and behaviour may be spontaneous or pre-arranged. They may happen before, during or after a match. They may happen once or several times, at any level of competition (amateur or professional, at national league matches, national cup matches, European cup matches or international matches, at tournaments, etc.) and anywhere in Europe.
“The Brussels International Supporters Award” therefore honours any positive initiative that represents an example, symbol and embodiment of values including:
• respect for others, without distinction between nationalities, races, cultures, etc.,
• peaceful encouragement (in contrast to violence),
• respect for the mental and physical well-being of all those involved in a match,
• the celebratory and friendly aspect of the sport,
• meeting and dialogue at a match,
• encouragement for good play, whether by the supporter’s own team or the opposition,
• encouragement of fair-play by players and respect for the referee,
• sharing, solidarity and fellowship as part of the same passion...
• acceptance of defeat whilst aspiring to victory…
• fraternisation between supporters before, during and after the match
• the appearance of the pitch and surrounding areas.

The organisers of the « Brussels International Supporters Award » have in mind, the sight of these supporters of teams coming together, above and beyond their partisan allegiances,
They also have in mind, applause from the stands at the end of a match for all 22 players without any distinction between one camp and another or of the greetings made in the same celebratory spirit between supporters of the two teams,
They have in mind, clubs who automatically request applause from their supporters for each player in the visiting team at the start of a match,
They even have in mind, those displays – costumes, ticker tape, music - chosen by the fans to express their allegiance in an amusing, sincere, generous and sometimes moving manner,;
They have in mind, clubs that have created a space in their grounds for children to safely and amicably take part in the celebration of football.
The criteria outlined above represent the resolutely positive approach that underlies the “Brussels International Supporters Award”.

The fans of the NI football team were nominated for this award. As head of the Amalgamation of Northern Ireland Supporters' Clubs, and as someone whose personal example typified the activities which earned the award, Jim Rainey was asked to accept it. Though I guess they could have flown 14,000 supporters over to Brussels...

[BleusAvantTout]

You start by lambasting Stiof for mixing Sport and politics.

Then you rattle into the old Unionist/Loyalist chestnut, that everything they do is 'Reactionary to the actions of Dublin,Republicans,Nationalists anything that they can think of '

I love it, you couldn't write that material.........................oh wait you did:eek:



You must be from Derry!!!:D

[Not Brazil]

Mr.Rainey fair enough. The latter part of the sentence implies though it's a 'collective' thing;Hmm......Not quite! :p

Many, many Northern Ireland fans have been actively involved in bringing about the massive transformation. It has been a "collective thing".:cool:

[Krstic]

You must be from Derry!!!:D

londonDerry to you:eek: