NI support

[David]

This bit I do undertand (even if I don't like it).

The Britishness of Wales and Scotland isn't questioned, whilst it is for NI. It's therefore basically about insecurity.

Still no excuse for having a supposedly national instituion dressed up in the symbolism of only one community. That is indefensible - which is why the only responses here have been either deranged (e.g. David) or questioning my right to question (e.g. Not Brazil).

Well out of order Steve. One thing to debate something but to resort to personal insults?

[Not Brazil]

or questioning my right to question (e.g. Not Brazil).

I haven't questioned your right to question Steve...stop telling porkies.

Why do you not support Northern Ireland?

[Soper]

David, he called your post deranged, not you.

[Not Brazil]

[QUOTE=dcfcsteve;517959]
Still no excuse for having a supposedly national instituion dressed up in the symbolism of only one community. QUOTE]

What like?

Players from both communities.

Green shirts.

Celtic Cross badge.

Shamrocks.

"Irish" Football Association.

Can you not support that Steve?

[dcfcsteve]

Why do you not support Northern Ireland Steve?

Whilst this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that an NI team shouldn't be dressed-up in either a British or an Irish identity, I'll ingratiate you with your little detour.

It goes back to 1985 for me. I supported NI in the 1982 World Cup as a kid, as did most of my mates at the time.

Then in 1985, Derry City finally got back into senior footnall - after years of being snubbed by the IFA. I got the bug - City games home and away became a massive part of my life as a young kid, and I was hugely grateful that the FAI had given us the chance of being back in the game. A chance that our own supposed guardians of the game had consistently refused on very dubious grounds.

Therefore - when it came to Mexico 86, being honest I found it difficult to support the NI team any more. The ROI team were no great shakes at the time (though they did narrowly miss out on qualification for Mexico), though as my footballing universe revolved around the FAI it should be no great surprise that I became increasingly interested in football matters in Dublin. So, my allegiances started to shift before the Republic were 'good' and before the North became 'bad' - because of my footballing frame of reference (Derry in the LOI). I wasn't following glory - I felt a sense of loyalty to the FAI/Republic for helping my team, and zero loyalty to the north for trying to destroy my team. This would've been a broadly felt sentiment in Derry at the time, where we were getting crowds of 10,000 at home games (i.e. alot of people started to draw the same conclusion).

As I got older, incidents like Anton Rogan, Neil Lennon, the NI v ROI games in the early 1990's etc made me thankful that I wasn't a supporter of the north any more - reinforcing my decision further.

Could I ever support the north again ? Yes - most definitely. But what you need to realise is that the Unionist trappings the team has chosen to tie itself up in make it the footballing equivalent of a drive through Macosquin for me. I don't feel comfortable going through areas with red, white, and blue kerbstones and flags on lamposts, and the concept of supporting a one-sided northern team makes me feel the same way. Please try and understand and accept this - rather than just question and/or attack it.

[dcfcsteve]

[QUOTE=dcfcsteve;517959]
Still no excuse for having a supposedly national instituion dressed up in the symbolism of only one community. QUOTE]

What like?

Players from both communities.

Green shirts.

Celtic Cross badge.

Shamrocks.

"Irish" Football Association.

Can you not support that Steve?


What like ?

Union Flag

Stormont Flag

God Save the Queen

A team that play in a Loyalist part of Belfast

Thankfully dying, but nonetheless still existant, terrace sectarianism

Keep questioning it Not Brazil. There's a danger you might actually understand at some point.....

[Not Brazil]

[QUOTE=Not Brazil;517971]


What like ?

Union Flag

Stormont Flag

God Save the Queen

A team that play in a Loyalist part of Belfast

Thankfully dying, but nonetheless still existant, terrace sectarianism

Keep questioning it David. There's a danger you might actually understand at some point.....

I'm not David, Steve.

Thanks for your reply - it is very revealing.

[dcfcsteve]

[QUOTE=dcfcsteve;517976]

I'm not David, Steve.

Apologies (and amended above).

[Not Brazil]

Over time, there would be no reason why my allegiance couldn't switch back primarily to the North either.

And they say it's unionists who are confused about their identity.;)

[David]

Whilst this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that an NI team shouldn't be dressed-up in either a British or an Irish identity, I'll ingratiate you with your little detour.

It goes back to 1985 for me. I supported NI in the 1982 World Cup as a kid, as did most of my mates at the time.

Then in 1985, Derry City finally got back into senior footnall - after years of being snubbed by the IFA. I got the bug - City games home and away became a massive part of my life as a young kid, and I was hugely grateful that the FAI had given us the chance of being back in the game. A chance that our own supposed guardians of the game had consistently refused on very dubious grounds.

Therefore - when it came to Mexico 86, being honest I found it difficult to support the NI team any more. The ROI team were no great shakes at the time (though they did narrowly miss out on qualification for Mexico), though as my footballing universe revolved around the FAI it should be no great surprise that I became increasingly interested in football matters in Dublin. So, my allegiances started to shift before the Republic were 'good' and before the North became 'bad' - because of my footballing frame of reference (Derry in the LOI). I wasn't following glory - I felt a sense of loyalty to the FAI/Republic for helping my team, and zero loyalty to the north for trying to destroy my team. This would've been a broadly felt sentiment in Derry at the time, where we were getting crowds of 10,000 at home games (i.e. alot of people started to draw the same conclusion).

As I got older, incidents like Anton Rogan, Neil Lennon, the NI v ROI games in the early 1990's etc made me thankful that I wasn't a supporter of the north any more - reinforcing my decision further.

Could I ever support the north again ? Yes - most definitely. But what you need to realise is that the Unionist trappings the team has chosen to tie itself up in make it the footballing equivalent of a drive through Macosquin for me. I don't feel comfortable going through areas with red, white, and blue kerbstones and flags on lamposts, and the concept of supporting a one-sided northern team makes me feel the same way. Please try and understand and accept this - rather than just question and/or attack it.


Have our visits to the Brandywell not shown that the IFA were right in not letting you back in as it is not safe for Linfield to visit the Brandywell?

[Not Brazil]

The last time I saw NI away supporters close up was here in Iceland a few years ago. Then there were a few hundred union jack clad gstq billy boys, looked even more farcical in a foreign context.
Yesterday at the Finland game, the camera caught the away support many times, they looked kinda normal healthy football supporters.The change is phenonomal. Is this for real?

What Iceland match?

I was at our last game in Iceland and I didn't see "a few hundred union jack clad gstq billy boys".

There was 80 of us, and there were no sectarian chants and very few Union Flags.

And yes, we were guilty of singing the national anthem of the United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Farcical granted.

[dcfcsteve]

Have our visits to the Brandywell not shown that the IFA were right in not letting you back in as it is not safe for Linfield to visit the Brandywell?

Yawn......

If you were coming 2-3 times a year no-one would give a feck. You were just a novelty for the bored youth, so don't flatter yourselves.

Sure we could just play all our games agaionst you at Windsor, like Cliftonville were forced to for decades..... :eek:

[dcfcsteve]

And they say it's unionists who are confused about their identity.;)

No more confused than supporting Derry City and Finn Harps. :)

My allegiances start from the local and work their way upwards. Hence, NI could feasibly fit within that, as they're more local to me than the Republic.

[Not Brazil]

No more confused than supporting Derry City and Finn Harps. :)

My allegiances start from the local and work their way upwards. Hence, NI could feasibly fit within that, as they're more local to me than the Republic.

Exactly.

So what would you like to happen in order for you to become a fully fledged Northern Ireland fan?

[dcfcsteve]

Exactly.

So what would you like to happen in order for you to become a fully fledged Northern Ireland fan?

As you've been so open-minded to ask, ratehr than just assume or lambast me, I'll happily tell you - though you many not like my thoughts !

I want to feel that supporting Northern Ireland is exactly that - supporting the football team that represents the part of the world I'm from. When I support Derry City, I'm supporting my home team, my town, my family, my friends etc. I'm not supporting Ireland, notions of Irishness, my religion, my 'culture' or anything like that. Hence why I (and the overwhelming majority of Derry fans) am all about wearing red n' white, singing songs that are just about the club, not waving the Irish flag etc etc. It's all about the football to me. I made a conscious decision to stop carinig about Celtic a few years back, as I just couldn't stand the sectarian trappings that come with them. I'd be delighted to see them beaten by any other Scottish team that doesn't similarily come with sectarian trappings (e.g. when Clyde put them out of the Cup).

Given the above philosophy, when I then transfer that to international football that does not suddenly make me some form of nationalist bigot with questionable motives looking to spitefully emasculate the great British institution that is Northern Ireland FC. Rather, I'd just like a football team that is about our piece of the planet. Not one that is as much about someone elses 'culture', politicis or identity, let alone one that hides behind notions of 'officialdom' to justify asserting such an exclusively British identity/'culture'.

I'd therefore like some sort of neutral anthem rather than GSTQ. I'd ideally like the NI Assembly to come up with it's own flag - one that again favours no side over the other, and that the people of Norn Iron can unite behind, rather than shake at each otehr to further fragment us. I'd even prefer the old Stormont flag to the Union flag, as at least it's local - but the bottom line is that that flag was designed to portray the 'Britishness' of Northern Ireland, and is therefore inherently one-sided. I'd like to see games played in a more neutral part of the province - which appears to be being addressed.

The bottom line is that no institution claiming to represent Northern Ireland can legitimately claim to do so whilst it so closely and excluysively allies itself with the symbolism and identity of only one part of our deeply divided province. If the above were to happen I would geneuinely feel much more at ease with the concept of supporting Norn Iron, and much happier about giving it a go. Likewise for a lot of my friends living in Belfast I'd imagine.

The dinosaurs like David will no doubt fume at this, and interpret it as attempts to deny them their identity. But a team representing Northern Ireland should never have been the exclusive preserve of one community in the first place. I'm not proposing replacing the Britishness of NIFC with Irishness - just making it less divisive and more acceptable to all of us.

Maybe the idea that football could stay about football and that we could all united behind ateam like we do with many other sports individuals/teams is naive of me. But that's my view, and that's what would make me much more likely to identify with what is supposedly the team representing my country.

Am I being thoroughly unreasonable....?

[dcfcsteve]

P.S. One caveat I will have to add, however, is that I don't believe in the idea of turning your back on someone who has helped you in your hour of need.

Therefore - I would find it difficult to put Northern Ireland above the Republic in my allegiances, because the FAI did my club a huge favour when our own supposed footballing authority had left us for dead. I therefore have a debt of gratitude tying me closer to the ROI team than most Northern Catholics/nationalists would have.

But just like I want Finn Harps and Derry to both do well, that wouldn't prevent me from genuinely wanting the North and the Republic to both do well in the vast majority of times when they never actually meet.

[Not Brazil]

dcfc steve,

"I'd therefore like some sort of neutral anthem rather than GSTQ."

So would I.

"I'd ideally like the NI Assembly to come up with it's own flag - one that again favours no side over the other, and that the people of Norn Iron can unite behind, rather than shake at each otehr to further fragment us."

Fair point.

"I'd even prefer the old Stormont flag to the Union flag, as at least it's local"

Northern Ireland play under the old Stormont Flag of Northern Ireland, not the Union Flag.

"I'd like to see games played in a more neutral part of the province - which appears to be being addressed."

Hopefully a new stadium in Belfast, and not a "white elephant" at the Maze.

The Lisburn Road, which is where I enter Windsor Park from, is absolutely mixed by the way.

"The dinosaurs like David will no doubt fume at this, and interpret it as attempts to deny them their identity"

In my dealings with David, I know him to be a very fair and reasonable man. Certainly not a "dinosaur".

"Maybe the idea that football could stay about football and that we could all united behind ateam like we do with many other sports individuals/teams is naive of me."

Not naive at all. One of the problems tho is that the largest sporting organisation on the island is exclusively nationalist/republican. When I do my bit to try and bring about change at Northern ireland games, I am repeatedly reminded about that.

I'm an Ireland rugby supporter too. When I go to Dublin to watch them play, why should I have to listen to the National Anthem of the Republic Of Ireland and see thousands of tricolors?

"Am I being thoroughly unreasonable....?"

Absolutely not. Your points are very reasonable indeed.

I genuinely don't believe there is a limit in how far the IFA can go with trying to attract a broader fanbase.

The bottom line is that many nationalists and all republicans don't recognise the state of Northern Ireland (they can't even say it's name ffs) and are therefore unlikely to support a team that legitimises that state.

Basically, the fact that we are Northern Ireland is too much for many to handle.

Many want to see our international team disappear altogether. They will not be dictating what anthem or what flag we fly - I can assure you that changes will come only if and when Northern Ireland fans (of whatever hue) decide to make them.

Does that make sense to you?

[dcfcsteve]

Absolutely not. Your points are very reasonable indeed.

I genuinely don't believe there is a limit in how far the IFA can go with trying to attract a broader fanbase.

The bottom line is that many nationalists and all republicans don't recognise the state of Northern Ireland (they can't even say it's name ffs) and are therefore unlikely to support a team that legitimises that state.

Basically, the fact that we are Northern Ireland is too much for many to handle.

Many want to see our international team disappear altogether. They will not be dictating what anthem or what flag we fly - I can assure you that changes will come only if and when Northern Ireland fans (of whatever hue) decide to make them.

Does that make sense to you?

It does.

The irony, however, is that keeping the Northern Irish team 'British' actually works to undermine the legitimacy of Northern Ireland as a political institution.

It's well known that there won't be a United Ireland in NI until the majority of the population actively indicate that they want one. But the flip-side of that is that the Union will only be maintained whilst the majority of the population support the concept of a Northern Ireland separate form the Republic. Having Nationalists alienated from the Northern Irish football team and instead giving their allegiances to the Republic, therefore, actively works against this !

I would also say that your wrong to opine that Nationalists are broadly lost to the Norn Irish team. If the politics got removed from the football, then over-time and with a few good results I could see nationalists returning to the terraces. Also - don't assume that the current situation will always be maintained. The depth and strength of both Reopublican and nationalist sentiments will undoubtedly soften with peace and a more balanced/inclusive society. Now, Nationalists supporting the NI team wouldn't alter their political aspirations - and nor should it - just like NI protestant rugby supporters going to Lansdowne Rd doesn't question their political aspirations or identity. But Irish rugby hasn't been dogged by the got political and sectarian associations that northern soccer has - hence it has never lost the support of Northern Protestants. If NI football dropped its political connotations, then it would be perfectly feasible that over-time it too would gain broader affinity.

And if both communities could genuinely unite behind supporting their local team, then that would do more to maintain the political status quo in the province than any misplaced notions of self-consciously waving a Union Flag and singing GSTQ at an international in Windsor could ever do. So removing the exclusively British identity of the NI team could, over time and in the context of other changes, actually help to keep the province British ! Slightly naive perhaps - but unless a majority of the province are made to feel wanted, respected and included, then NI's status within the Union could feasibly come under threat with time. It's noth the hardcore Republicans you need to worry about - it's the moderate nationalists like me, who accept the Union in the absence of a majority demand for an alternative, who are the group who could make or break the Union at soem point !

[Not Brazil]

dcfc steve,

The bottom line is that change will come from within the ranks of the Northern Ireland fanbase.

I don't go to watch Northern Ireland to listen to anthems or look at flags.

I go because it's players from my part of the world playing, and I am very proud of them.

I was born in Northern Ireland, so I support Northern Ireland.

I know that might be overly simplistic, but that's the way it is.

I can appreciate that we live in a divided society, and people get worked up about anthems and things.

Personally, I'm getting more into the Sepp Blatter school of anthem thinking - just do away with them all at international games.

[dcfcsteve]

dcfc steve,

The bottom line is that change will come from within the ranks of the Northern Ireland fanbase.

I don't go to watch Northern Ireland to listen to anthems or look at flags.

I go because it's players from my part of the world playing, and I am very proud of them.

I was born in Northern Ireland, so I support Northern Ireland.

I know that might be overly simplistic, but that's the way it is.

I can appreciate that we live in a divided society, and people get worked up about anthems and things.

Personally, I'm getting more into the Sepp Blatter school of anthem thinking - just do away with them all at international games.

Don't disagree with any of that.

However - whilst the NI fanbase is so predominately Unionist/Loyalist, how likely is it that they would accept having an NI team that no longer exclusively reflects their identity ?

[David]

Don't disagree with any of that.

However - whilst the NI fanbase is so predominately Unionist/Loyalist, how likely is it that they would accept having an NI team that no longer exclusively reflects their identity ?

How can people find a flag so offensive? How can people ind GSTQ so offensive? As NB has said, people from up here are happy to accept both in reverse when they go to Landsdowne Road for rugby. I could live with the scrapping completely of national anthems but where I differ with NB is that I would not agree to it being changed. As long as national anthems are being played before games that is exactly what I want played for Northern Ireland, the national anthem of orthern Ireland which is GSTQ. That is not trying to exclude anyone. To be honest I think if any action was taken on such things, Northern Ireland would lose more fans than they would gain.

[Not Brazil]

However - whilst the NI fanbase is so predominately Unionist/Loyalist, how likely is it that they would accept having an NI team that no longer exclusively reflects their identity ?

Well, the team itself reflects both main identities in Northern Ireland. Always has, always will at every level.

[Not Brazil]

As long as national anthems are being played before games that is exactly what I want played for Northern Ireland, the national anthem of orthern Ireland which is GSTQ. That is not trying to exclude anyone. To be honest I think if any action was taken on such things, Northern Ireland would lose more fans than they would gain.

I wholly respect your viewpoint David, but the Scots and Welsh have stirring anthems of their own, and England might be down that route soon too.

Having a uniqely Northern Irish sporting anthem would be a good thing in my opinion - if we are to have anthems at all.

I believe more and more Northern Ireland fans are of that opinion.

[David]

I wholly respect your viewpoint David, but the Scots and Welsh have stirring anthems of their own, and England might be down that route soon too.

Having a uniqely Northern Irish sporting anthem would be a good thing in my opinion - if we are to have anthems at all.

I believe more and more Northern Ireland fans are of that opinion.

All entitled to our opinion mate. Personally I believe the national anthem should be just that but each to their own. Thing is we are not going to lose support by keeping it but we will undoubtedly lose support if we drop it in my opinion.

[dcfcsteve]

Well, the team itself reflects both main identities in Northern Ireland. Always has, always will at every level.

That wasn't my question though - unless you're suggestin letting the players themselves decide what flag and anthem they play under....? :eek: :D

[Speranza]

As a young nationalist and football fan I think I can say with some degree of certainty that this debate is futile. Not one person I go to the Brandy or seldomly Landsdowne with will ever follow NI as they do not think the country should exist. That isn't meant to be offensive to those of unionist persuasion at all and shouldn't be used as an excuse to have a Loyalist day out at Windsor.

The sectarianism and Loyalist love-in that occurs at Windsor or that did occur in the past says a lot about Unionism but that is a debate for another day.

[David]

As a young nationalist and football fan I think I can say with some degree of certainty that this debate is futile. Not one person I go to the Brandy or seldomly Landsdowne with will ever follow NI as they do not think the country should exist. That isn't meant to be offensive to those of unionist persuasion at all and shouldn't be used as an excuse to have a Loyalist day out at Windsor.


This sort of verifies what I have been saying throughout this thread and I respect this opinion completely.

[Speranza]

It verifies your opinion to a certain extent but the way in which NI fans behave makes for a dim future for NI football. It is sad in this day and age that an activity such as going to a football match should be seen as one enjoyed by only one community. I will never lend my support to NI but I am sure there are fans like Steve who would be open to the idea, why should being British and proud be manifested via a football match.

I am incredibly proud to be from Derry and that is why I support City, in no way does my pride in being Irish come through at the Brandy. Can Windsor regulars not just find pride in their "country" rather than the UK?

[Not Brazil]

As a young nationalist and football fan I think I can say with some degree of certainty that this debate is futile. Not one person I go to the Brandy or seldomly Landsdowne with will ever follow NI as they do not think the country should exist. That isn't meant to be offensive to those of unionist persuasion at all and shouldn't be used as an excuse to have a Loyalist day out at Windsor.


Speranza,

I respect your honesty, and you confirm my earlier comments.

What we have done for international games at Windsor is try to ensure that anyone who wants to support Northern Ireland, regardless of their religion or politics, can do so in an atmosphere free from sectarianism etc.

Obviously if you don't want to support Northern Ireland, those efforts are irrelevent.

We've been pretty succcessful to date, although the work in ongoing.

We've all but removed sectarian singing....which you must appreciate was deeply offensive to many Northern Ireland fans.

There'll be some major news soon providing recognition from the powers that be of the progress Northern Ireland fans have made to make our games a brilliant day out - win, lose or draw.

PS. Pat and Mark must not completely concur with your sentiments.;)

[Not Brazil]

That wasn't my question though - unless you're suggestin letting the players themselves decide what flag and anthem they play under....? :eek: :D

There haven't been any complaints, to be fair.

If a player raised the matter, I think it would merit being taken serously.

[David]

It verifies your opinion to a certain extent but the way in which NI fans behave makes for a dim future for NI football. It is sad in this day and age that an activity such as going to a football match should be seen as one enjoyed by only one community. I will never lend my support to NI but I am sure there are fans like Steve who would be open to the idea, why should being British and proud be manifested via a football match.

I am incredibly proud to be from Derry and that is why I support City, in no way does my pride in being Irish come through at the Brandy. Can Windsor regulars not just find pride in their "country" rather than the UK?

What way do Northern Ireland fans behave that make for a dim future? Sectarianism has been removed form the games. To be totally honest there are few Union flags at games although I see no problem whatsoever in these being displayed. You say to find pride in our country (not sure why the word country is put in inverted commas, we are as much a country as anywhere else) rather than the UK but our country is part of the UK and to many the two go hand in hand. Just like Not Brazil has explained, he is proud to be British but also proud to be Irish. Personally I would say I am proud to be British and Northern Irish or an Ulsterman but that is just a personal preference. Why do people see it as wrong for us to show pride in what we are? We can fully respect and accept people's Irishness, why not respect and accept our Britishness?

[Gather round]

The last time I saw NI away supporters close up was here in Iceland a few years ago. Then there were a few hundred union jack clad gstq billy boys, looked even more farcical in a foreign context. Yesterday at the Finland game, the camera caught the away support many times, they looked kinda normal healthy football supporters.The change is phenonomal. Is this for real?

Without wishing to be too defensive, you are exaggerating (we didn't take hundreds to Iceland, and of those only a minority would have been jack-waving, if you're talking about the qualifying game for 2002). We lost 0-1, the Fermanagh fumbler throwing one in late in the second half. I'd say mildly eccentric rather than farcical, partic. since I imagine most Islanders aren't that bothered by the nuances of national icdentity in Northern Ireland. But there is less of a hardline unionist atmosphere at games now, which is welcome.



Is there some avoidance about the question? Where have they all gone? Was there a collective unconcious decision to forgo this apparel and overt bigotry? did they run out of money? were they regarded as persona not grata inside the NI football supporters club? Were they photographed and banned? Did they just simply not turn up anymore? How did it happen?

I think most of 'them' are still there (given that crowds at our games are rising overall), but there's more internal criticism of their attitudes. So they've stopped treating games as a loyalist love-in. Hardly any have been directly excluded.


As for GSTQ what a dirge, just my personal opinion, (and that of many others i'm sure judging by the number of players singing it!). Would be nice to change it for a unique NI sporting anthem - probably not going to happen though...

Agreed. Some personal modern-ish choices would be,

* Gloria- Van the Man's original garage anthem
* Alternative Ulster- the Rigid Digits
* Days of Pearly Spencer- about a wino in Ballymena
* Religious persuasion- Any White (heh, only joking)


You are quite correct, in the past there was more Catholic fans. That was during the 80's when we were successful. As a passing note there was 10 times more sectarianism than there is now so the claim that this is what put Catholics off does not hold much credence, does it?

No...it was in the 60's and ealry 70's, when Sectarianism then reared it's ugly head and forced alot of Nationalists away

I can only remember back to the mid 70s NI games, so can't compare with the 60s, but there was certainly plenty of nationalist support for NI then, despite the violence. Of course my evidence is largely anecdotal, but it can be seen in the media of the time, especially around the 1982 World Cup. I lived in Dublin from 1980-84 and there was also plenty of support for NI as a second side, which you'd see rather less now. This reflects, in part, that the Republic never qualified for anything before 1988.


Regardless, it is both churlish and naively simplistic to suggest that the catholics turned their back on Norn Iron solely or even primarily because of results. Little things like having to listen to hundreds of people openly abuse them/their religion on matchday, and players receiving death threats etc, might have had an even greater impact don't you think....?

I'll accept that it can sound churlish, but there was institutionalised sectarianism both generally and specifically around football, for years while nationalists continued to support NI. And during many of those years, in the 70s, NI were pretty mediocre. It's not simplistic to see relative success for the Republic as a clear factor for reduced support for NI.


he called your post deranged, not you

It's still personal abuse, alas.


A team that play in a Loyalist part of Belfast

I can see why Steve and others would criticise this, although threads passim suggest he was quite relaxed (or apathetic, maybe) about the team moving to, in effect, a loyalist part of Lisburn, rather than the Belfast centre site that most NI fans clearly prefer...


Have our visits to the Brandywell not shown that the IFA were right in not letting you back in as it is not safe for Linfield to visit the Brandywell?

No, they've suggested that there is a current security issue. Which many Linfield fans are confident can be resolved by the clubs without it becoming a big political issue.


I'd therefore like some sort of neutral anthem rather than GSTQ. I'd ideally like the NI Assembly to come up with it's own flag - one that again favours no side over the other, and that the people of Norn Iron can unite behind, rather than shake at each otehr to further fragment us. I'd even prefer the old Stormont flag to the Union flag, as at least it's local - but the bottom line is that that flag was designed to portray the 'Britishness' of Northern Ireland, and is therefore inherently one-sided. I'd like to see games played in a more neutral part of the province - which appears to be being addressed

Agreed to the anthem; something including the red hand; Ormeau Park is neutral even if the Maze/ Lisburn site isn't. We have the basis of a compromise...


Having Nationalists alienated from the Northern Irish football team and instead giving their allegiances to the Republic, therefore, actively works against this !

You aren't comparing like with like. Support for a football team is important, voting in a border poll more important. So one won't directly follow form the other in many cases.


It's noth the hardcore Republicans you need to worry about - it's the moderate nationalists like me, who accept the Union in the absence of a majority demand for an alternative, who are the group who could make or break the Union at soem point!

Hmm. I'm afraid that implies that you accept the democratic decision (majority support for partition) now, but might not in the future. Since you're personally likely to remain opposed to partition, and since the overall support for it is also unlikely to disappear, what are you suggesting? That you might become more politicised by Linfield fans arguing on a message board? Seems a bit over the top. BTW, I wouldn't express opinions like that anywhere near Walthamstow, Wycombe or the US immigration queue at Heathrow, Ye know how jumpy Inspector Knacker is here at the mo, he'd have ye in Belmarsh in no time...


However - whilst the NI fanbase is so predominately Unionist/Loyalist, how likely is it that they would accept having an NI team that no longer exclusively reflects their identity ?

If Blatter axes anthems etc. completely, NI fans aren't going to sulk any more than Kazakhs, Israelis or anyone else I'd guess. And, inter alia, the NI team is represented by many nationalist players, coaches etc. even if fewer supporters.


It verifies your opinion to a certain extent but the way in which NI fans behave makes for a dim future for NI football. It is sad in this day and age that an activity such as going to a football match should be seen as one enjoyed by only one community

Rather a roundabout argument there. You think it has dim future because you don't think it should exist. We are quite happy that it exists, ergo we disagree that per se it has a dim future. Really, if you think the argument is futile, why not just ignore it?

[Dassa]

David, Chill mate - i don't think anyone was trying to be overly offensive - just making an observation, which i took as a compliment to the progress NI have made more than anything else. And as a NI fan i would far rather see people wearing the kit, singing songs about the team and waving the NI flag and the IFA flag, than the way things used to be.

As for GSTQ what a dirge, just my personal opinion, (and that of many others i'm sure judging by the number of players singing it!). Would be nice to change it for a unique NI sporting anthem - probably not going to happen though...


As a blockbooker couldnt agree more lad. NI definitely improving on the pitch and off.

[Speranza]

I think we should all follow NI fans and find pride in the bigger political situation. If I am in Stuttgart then I plan to buy 1000 European flags to hand out to Ireland fans. :rolleyes:

NI fans waving the Union Jack just shows the fear they have of a United Ireland as they take every oppurtunity to declare they are British. Why not show pride in your six county "country" rather than the UK like the other home nations?

[David]

I think we should all follow NI fans and find pride in the bigger political situation. If I am in Stuttgart then I plan to buy 1000 European flags to hand out to Ireland fans. :rolleyes:

NI fans waving the Union Jack just shows the fear they have of a United Ireland as they take every oppurtunity to declare they are British. Why not show pride in your six county "country" rather than the UK like the other home nations?

The problem in this country is that some people simply cannot accept others for what they are. Why should we hide what we are? I am British and very proud to be so. Those that are Irish and proud to be so, fair play to them and there is no problem in them displaying their Irishness so why is there a problem with me displaying my Britishness should I decide to do so. I would not be doing it to cause offence but to show my pride in my Britishness. Derry City had a tricolour in Gretna. I had no problem with that, fair play to them. Why can we all not accept each other for what we are?

[Krstic]

Derry City had A tricolour in Gretna. I had no problem with that, fair play to them. Why can we all not accept each other for what we are?

Tells it's own story really.

[dcfcsteve]

The problem in this country is that some people simply cannot accept others for what they are. Why should we hide what we are? I am British and very proud to be so. Those that are Irish and proud to be so, fair play to them and there is no problem in them displaying their Irishness so why is there a problem with me displaying my Britishness should I decide to do so. I would not be doing it to cause offence but to show my pride in my Britishness. Derry City had a tricolour in Gretna. I had no problem with that, fair play to them. Why can we all not accept each other for what we are?

You're consistently missing the point David.

Northern Ireland is a deeply divided society that contains 2 communities that have very different political, religious and cultural affinities. Non-one is saying either side doesn't have the right to proclaim and celebrate who they are (albeit in so far as it itsn't done to goad or 'do-down' the other). The issue is when you have official organisations that are trying to represent NI as a whole, but then dress themselves up solely in one or other communities symbolism. As a result they do not and cannot claim to represent NI as a whole.

Take countries like Canada and Belgium, which have 2 very different political, cultural, and most obviously linguistic communities. They have societal splits that have brought their country to the verge of fragmentation numerous times in the past, but they have had to come up with a working arrangement to keep everyone on-board and working together for the colective good. Part of that is to treat both sides as equal. The solution wasn't, for example, to dress national bodies like football teams up in the symbolism of only one side or the other. You can wheel out the whole 'Nationalists don't want the north to work' notion - but there are plenty of nationalists who are sensible enough to understand that a United Ireland is someway off, and that we all have to come up with some way of eating, sleeping and working in peace together in the meantime.

Would you be happy if the Northern Irish team used exclusively Catholic/Nationalist/Irish symbolism ? And please don't hide behind the whole 'official' red herrinng to justify if you wouldn't.

So David - the problem isn't anyone trying to stop you being British. The problem is you wanting to give the Northern Irish team an exclusively British identity - which will inherently alienate the almost 50% of the population who do not share your particular identity.

And why is it so crucial to your sense of Britishness to insist that the NI team can't have neutral symbolism anyway ? Do you wear Union Flag ties, shirts, trousers and a bowler hat into work every day, for example ?? Identity is a state of mind - the Northern Irish team singing 'Danny Boy' or whatever for an anthem would only make you less British if you somehow convinced yourself that it did. Just like England adopting 'Jerusalem' as their anthem wouldn't make the English any less British.

[dcfcsteve]

Derry City had a tricolour in Gretna. I had no problem with that, fair play to them. Why can we all not accept each other for what we are?

Well done David.

Out of the 3,000 Derry fans in attendance there was one tricolour. From the Dublin supporters club (the Scottish one has a saltire, btw). There were also a number of Polish and a Vietnamese flag.

That Tricolour is only brought to European games, where we are representing the Republic of Ireland. The same flag wasn't even on display at the home game against Gothenburg, as the owner asked fans on the City forum would it present a problem and a number (myself included) suggested it shouldn't be brought.

I'd love to see Linfield fans engage in such considerd debate over whether to bring their numerous Union flags to matches.... :rolleyes:

[David]

You're consistently missing the point David.

Northern Ireland is a deeply divided society that contains 2 communities that have very different political, religious and cultural affinities. Non-one is saying either side doesn't have the right to proclaim and celebrate who they are (albeit in so far as it itsn't done to goad or 'do-down' the other). The issue is when you have official organisations that are trying to represent NI as a whole, but then dress themselves up solely in one or other communities symbolism. As a result they do not and cannot claim to represent NI as a whole.

Take countries like Canada and Belgium, which have 2 very different political, cultural, and most obviously linguistic communities. They have societal splits that have brought their country to the verge of fragmentation numerous times in the past, but they have had to come up with a working arrangement to keep everyone on-board and working together for the colective good. Part of that is to treat both sides as equal. The solution wasn't, for example, to dress national bodies like football teams up in the symbolism of only one side or the other. You can wheel out the whole 'Nationalists don't want the north to work' notion - but there are plenty of nationalists who are sensible enough to understand that a United Ireland is someway off, and that we all have to come up with some way of eating, sleeping and working in peace together in the meantime.

Would you be happy if the Northern Irish team used exclusively Catholic/Nationalist/Irish symbolism ? And please don't hide behind the whole 'official' red herrinng to justify if you wouldn't.

So David - the problem isn't anyone trying to stop you being British. The problem is you wanting to give the Northern Irish team an exclusively British identity - which will inherently alienate the almost 50% of the population who do not share your particular identity.

And why is it so crucial to your sense of Britishness to insist that the NI team can't have neutral symbolism anyway ? Do you wear Union Flag ties, shirts, trousers and a bowler hat into work every day, for example ?? Identity is a state of mind - the Northern Irish team singing 'Danny Boy' or whatever for an anthem would only make you less British if you somehow convinced yourself that it did. Just like England adopting 'Jerusalem' as their anthem wouldn't make the English any less British.

Think we are going to have to agree to differ on this one. A few points though. I personally do not bring a Union flag to any game. However all I am saying is that I see no wrong in doing so just like I see no wrong in Derry City supporters bringing a tricolour to Gretna game. There just seems to be something against displaying Britishness yet no such problem with Irishness. For example I was listening to Talkback on Radio Ulster earlier and there was a thing on about the ireland rugby team playing in Belfast shortly. When they play in Dublin, there is Irelands Call played for the team, the visitor's national anthem and also the Soldiers Song for the host country but in case of causing offence to anyone GSTQ will not be played when they play in Belfast, just Ireland's Call. It is almost like it is a crime to display any Britishness.

[David]

Well done David.

Out of the 3,000 Derry fans in attendance there was one tricolour. From the Dublin supporters club (the Scottish one has a saltire, btw). There were also a number of Polish and a Vietnamese flag.

That Tricolour is only brought to European games, where we are representing the Republic of Ireland. The same flag wasn't even on display at the home game against Gothenburg, as the owner asked fans on the City forum would it present a problem and a number (myself included) suggested it shouldn't be brought.

I'd love to see Linfield fans engage in such considerd debate over whether to bring their numerous Union flags to matches.... :rolleyes:

I was not criticising the displaying of this flag, merely pointing out that it was displayed and was prominent on television and asking for a bit of parity.

[Dassa]

I think we should all follow NI fans and find pride in the bigger political situation. If I am in Stuttgart then I plan to buy 1000 European flags to hand out to Ireland fans. :rolleyes:

NI fans waving the Union Jack just shows the fear they have of a United Ireland as they take every oppurtunity to declare they are British. Why not show pride in your six county "country" rather than the UK like the other home nations?

WE do show Pride in our COUNTRY and if you were at a match you would see very little sign of UJ's the odd one but not even close to what there used to be. I am proud to be N Irish like most NI fans and have no interest in bringing a UJ to any game of football.

[dcfcsteve]

Think we are going to have to agree to differ on this one. A few points though. I personally do not bring a Union flag to any game. However all I am saying is that I see no wrong in doing so just like I see no wrong in Derry City supporters bringing a tricolour to Gretna game. There just seems to be something against displaying Britishness yet no such problem with Irishness. For example I was listening to Talkback on Radio Ulster earlier and there was a thing on about the ireland rugby team playing in Belfast shortly. When they play in Dublin, there is Irelands Call played for the team, the visitor's national anthem and also the Soldiers Song for the host country but in case of causing offence to anyone GSTQ will not be played when they play in Belfast, just Ireland's Call. It is almost like it is a crime to display any Britishness.

It would also be 'a crime' to play Amhran na bhFiann in Belfast though ! So playing neither a British nor an Irish anthem seems perfectly sensible and reasonable to me ! Seems even the rugby heads buy intno the perfectly sensible principle of using neither side's symbolism exclusively when playing in the north - it's just the IFA who don't get it.

Your Derry City tricolour observation is spurious, as we are not the official representatives of the province etc. We're not even the sole or official representatives of the City, ffs, as there's another team in senior football here. There would be a big difference, for example, in an ordinary car driving around with a tricolour on it, versus a PSNI car doing the same. You're grasping at straws with this whole example David.

You want teams representing Northern Ireland to be dressed up in British symbolism. I want them to be dressed up in neither British nor Irish symbolism. I'll leave it to everyone else on here to decide which is the more considerate and reasonable request for the future of Northern Ireland......

[David]

It would also be 'a crime' to play Amhran na bhFiann in Belfast though ! So playing neither a British nor an Irish anthem seems perfectly sensible and reasonable to me ! Seems even the rugby heads buy intno the perfectly sensible principle of using neither side's symbolism exclusively when playing in the north - it's just the IFA who don't get it.

Your Derry City tricolour observation is spurious, as we are not the official representatives of the province etc. We're not even the sole or official representatives of the City, ffs, as there's another team in senior football here. There would be a big difference, for example, in an ordinary car driving around with a tricolour on it, versus a PSNI car doing the same. You're grasping at straws with this whole example David.

You want teams representing Northern Ireland to be dressed up in British symbolism. I want them to be dressed up in neither British nor Irish symbolism. I'll leave it to everyone else on here to decide which is the more considerate and reasonable request for the future of Northern Ireland......

It's not a crime to play the Soldiers Song in Belfast as far as I am aware. The fact is that Northern Ireland is British. Some people may not like that but it is the case. As I have said before it is those that take offence at flags that have the problem in my opinion, not those that display them. I habve no problem whatsoever in respecting peoples Irishness, why can others not do me the same courtesy with my nationality? Why should Northern Ireland be the only country in the world demonised for being patriotic and displaying their nationality at an international game. It is called respect. If I respect you and others, please do me the same courtesy. And out of interest the Union Flag is permanently on display at Windsor Park, what is the problem with displaying our flag?

[Not Brazil]

Why not show pride in your six county "country" rather than the UK like the other home nations?

The vast majority Northern Ireland fans do. Union Flags are far outnumbered by Northern Ireland flags, IFA crest related flags and by simple green and white flags nowadays.

A "Sea Of Green" initiative by supporters has helped create a "Greener" environment.:)

[dcfcsteve]

It's not a crime to play the Soldiers Song in Belfast as far as I am aware. The fact is that Northern Ireland is British. Some people may not like that but it is the case. As I have said before it is those that take offence at flags that have the problem in my opinion, not those that display them. I habve no problem whatsoever in respecting peoples Irishness, why can others not do me the same courtesy with my nationality? Why should Northern Ireland be the only country in the world demonised for being patriotic and displaying their nationality at an international game. It is called respect. If I respect you and others, please do me the same courtesy. And out of interest the Union Flag is permanently on display at Windsor Park, what is the problem with displaying our flag?


* Gives up through extreme headache brought-on by banging head against wall......*

[David]

* Gives up through extreme headache brought-on by banging head against wall......*

So Derry City, who are apparently welcoming to all according to other threads are fine to display a tricolour at their game yet Northern Ireland fans should not display a Union Flag at their games because we live in a "divided society? And of course Londonderry is a city that we should all look up to for its cultural diversity and is symbolic of how both communities can live side by side.

[Schwalker]

So Derry City, who are apparently welcoming to all according to other threads are fine to display a tricolour at their game yet Northern Ireland fans should not display a Union Flag at their games because we live in a "divided society? And of course Londonderry is a city that we should all look up to for its cultural diversity and is symbolic of how both communities can live side by side.

There is no NI flag or song that´s not claimed by any side that would work?

Obviously the positions are a bit locked on the British/Irish issue so there might be better to look at what common grounds there is?

How are the English handling the British/English issue...?

[Speranza]

And of course Londonderry is a city that we should all look up to for its cultural diversity and is symbolic of how both communities can live side by side.

It is unreal that a resident of Belfast can even attempt to abuse Derry. Despite my hatred of Belfast I will not berate the place but just point out that for the most part the two communities in Derry live peacefully side by side.

[David]

It is unreal that a resident of Belfast can even attempt to abuse Derry. Despite my hatred of Belfast I will not berate the place but just point out that for the most part the two communities in Derry live peacefully side by side.

Not the perception that people outside the city have and certainly not how Protestants that I know from Londonderry feel but my point was that surely a tricolour at your game alienates those from the Unionist community that may attend Derry games in the same way that a Union Flag would do to Nationalists at Northern Ireland games if you use the Derry City logic.

[dcfcsteve]

Not the perception that people outside the city have and certainly not how Protestants that I know from Londonderry feel but my point was that surely a tricolour at your game alienates those from the Unionist community that may attend Derry games in the same way that a Union Flag would do to Nationalists at Northern Ireland games if you use the Derry City logic.

Look David - I really don't know if you're genuinely thick, or if you just pretend to be to serve your purposes.

Derry City is not the representative team of Northern Ireland. Nor is it even the representative team of the city of Derry, ffs, as there is another senior football club in the city.

Conversely, Northern Ireland is the reprersentative team of the province. Not just your little Loyalist/Unionist part of the province, but ALL of it.

As I said above, it's like comparing a private vehcile or small-company car driving round NI with a tricolour out the window, and a PSNI vheicle doing the same. There is clearly a massive dfifference, but you're either too simple or too bloody-minded to see it.

Now, where did I leave the headache pills. Denting the shape of my forehead onto the wall is really starting to bite....