Jim Roddy - All-Ireland League

[sonofstan]

discussion on the Season Ticket - BBC N.I. - about the possibility of an all- ireland league with Jim Roddy from Derry and Jim Royce of the IFA; Roddy all for, Royce predictably all against; best bit though was Roddy talking about the parlous state of clubs north and south ' we lost Omagh Town from the Irish League last year and we lost Shamrock Rovers from the Eircom League' Top Man

[pól-dcfc]

Jesus you dubs don't half love having a go at one another :D

[SeanDrog]

saw the interview alright - it was very good tv for footie fans. Interesting watching both sides of the argument - thought Roddy destroyed the IFA lad who could only keep stating "it will never happen" without actually given a real reason beyond UFEA will never allow it - I would guess (completely uneducated of cource) that UFEA would allow it.

Now being a drog I clearly didn't have a good opinion of Mr Roddy but in fairness he gave a ood arguement last night, well presented and very professional - well done.


Its good to see this topic being discussed o various forms including the papers and TV.

[manic da hoop]

"we almost lost Shamrock Rovers" :rolleyes:

[rerun]

Thought it was great when the IFA guy was saying about Celtic and Rangers and that they'll never play in England, and Roddy counters with the fact that teams from Wales play in England and there is a football league in Wales.

[Dassa]

UEFA will never allow it. This would set a precedent for other clubs across Europe to leave their leagues. Also the welsh clubs play in the English league which comes under the juristiction of English FA. This AI league wouldnt come under any single national FA juristiction so would reach problems in areas such as european places.

[Strabane_Harp]

there are 2 reasons why Jim Boyce is terrified of an all ireland league

1) it would be the end of his cushy job and pretty much end the IFA

2) His precious Cliftonville wouldnt be included

[OneRedArmy]

"we almost lost Shamrock Rovers" :rolleyes:
Why the eye roll? I would have thought being petitioned to be wound up by the Revenue, only to be saved by the fans, was fairly accurately described by the phrase "almost lost"?

[manic da hoop]

No, no. Not a criticism of what Jim Roddy said, merely correcting the Bohs fan who misquoted him at the top of the thread by claimimg he said "we LOST Shamrock Rovers".

[sonofstan]

did he say 'almost'? - I obviously heard what i wanted to hear .......

[NY Hoop]

UEFA will never allow it. This would set a precedent for other clubs across Europe to leave their leagues. Also the welsh clubs play in the English league which comes under the juristiction of English FA. This AI league wouldnt come under any single national FA juristiction so would reach problems in areas such as european places.

Correct. All Ireland League is light years away.

KOH

[Strabane_Harp]

What would happen if one of the big northern clubs applied to join the eircom league?

they could easily make the argument derry are there so why shouldnt they, of course derry's original reason for being here was valid but it isnt quite the same now.

If Linfield, Glentoran or Portadown wanted to join the Eircom League the FAI should do all in its power to help them, it can only benefit the league compared to the likes of Dublin City Home Farm Fingal Everton.

[BohDiddley]

did he say 'almost'? - I obviously heard what i wanted to hear .......
Disgraceful habit. You should give that up straight away.:D

[Dassa]

there are 2 reasons why Jim Boyce is terrified of an all ireland league

1) it would be the end of his cushy job and pretty much end the IFA


Comments like this will not further on an AI league, Even though I have very little time for them they our still NI's assocition and NI arent goin anywhere. Also comments here suggest that clubs would be happy enough from the North to compete in a league solely run by the FAI. This is pie in the sky lads.

[pineapple stu]

UEFA will never allow it. This would set a precedent for other clubs across Europe to leave their leagues.
Spot on, unfortunately. Political unity is the only way we'll see a unified Irish league. Would love to see it myself obviously, but it's not going to happen.

Stabane_Harp - you answered your own question when noting the difference between Derry and the other clubs...

[OneRedArmy]

Spot on, unfortunately. Political unity is the only way we'll see a unified Irish league. Would love to see it myself obviously, but it's not going to happen.

Stabane_Harp - you answered your own question when noting the difference between Derry and the other clubs...
I reckon if it went to the European Court on a restraint of cross-border trade basis (the very reason the EU was set up), UEFA would be on a very sticky wicket.

But agreed that even that would take years.

[pineapple stu]

Celtic and Rangers are still stuck in Scotland despite being far more powerful than eL/IL clubs...

[WeAreRovers]

Correct. All Ireland League is light years away.

KOH

I swear I'm not arguing with you for the sake of it but check out Delaney's comments in the Mirror this morning. It's coming and it's coming soon.

KOH

[pineapple stu]

It's not. Not without the league breaking away from UEFA and forfeiting European places. Don't believe everything you read. Especially from Delaney!

[dcfcsteve]

UEFA will never allow it. This would set a precedent for other clubs across Europe to leave their leagues. Also the welsh clubs play in the English league which comes under the juristiction of English FA. This AI league wouldnt come under any single national FA juristiction so would reach problems in areas such as european places.

Dassa / Pineapple St / NY Hoop - you're completely and factually wrong on this.

Under EU Restraint of Trade and Competition Laws, a football club in one EU jurisdiction is perfectly entitled to conduct its business (i.e. play) in another footballing jurisdiction. The test case for this was Newport Co vs the FA of Wales in 1994 (Lord Blackburn was the presiding judge).

Therefore - if Linfield decided tomorrow that they wanted to join the Eircom League, the only thing that could stop them would be if the EL clubs themselves - using their normal procedures for accepting new teams - voted against them joining. All the IFA could do about it would be to deny Linfield any future nominations amongst their slots for European competitions.

Derry City required special FIFA permission to join the LOI in 1985. Beacuse that predated the Maastricht Treaty and the 1994 test case on restraint of trade in football that then followed. If Derry were looking to apply now, they would require no such permission.

The main reason why Celtic and Rangers haven't left the SPL to join the EPL yet is that the English clubs wouldn't vote to accept them. It is naive to assume that there isn't continual dialogue between Glasgow and England on this - and once the vote ior ready to go the right way the change will eventually be made. And what will be the clincher ? The value of the English Premiership TV Rights is declining. Rangers and Celtic joining the League would give the rights a massive boost in value. If clubs like Chealsea continue to domainate English football becasue of their finances, the smaller clubs will look to bring in the Old Firm on a deal that is favourable to them (at least in the short term) in order to redress that growing financial imbalance.

[dcfcsteve]

I swear I'm not arguing with you for the sake of it but check out Delaney's comments in the Mirror this morning. It's coming and it's coming soon.

KOH

WAR - can you or someone else scan or type-in Delaney's comments ?

[pineapple stu]

The test case for this was Newport Co vs the FA of Wales in 1994 (Lord Blackburn was the presiding judge).
Different facts, I would imagine. There was no Welsh league before 1992, so any Welsh team played in England. I think the Welsh league tried to make their clubs join the league, but some refused? Newport presumably gained an exemption as they were in the English league by necessity already and were under no compunction to move back. Even now some want to leave for England (eg Rhyl). That argument doesn't hold for NI clubs joining the eircom League or vice versa.

[WeAreRovers]

Irish Daily Mirror

Headline - Delaney won't stand in the way of All-Ireland League...in fact he likes the idea.

"As far as I'm concerned I will give the members what they want. Nobody owns the FAI. So I will support the wishes of the clubs. But like everything in life you have to do things gradually. It's a crawl, walk, run process.

Two years ago people would have said a cross-border tournament was a pie-in-the-sky idea. No one would have thought that Derry could go to Windsor Park for a competitive game. But it has happened. The Setanta Cup is established now. It's a great tournament.

I was there on Monday night in Windsor and it was a marvelous atmospheric occassion. Where it goes from here? Only time will tell. My personal view is that I am here to support the clubs. and if they want to go and pursue an All-Ireland league then we wil look at that.

Alternatively if they want to extend the Setanta Cup then we will look at that option. But it must be what clubs on both sides of the border want and what both associations want."

And there's loads more like that, along the lines of Genesis recommending an all-island league, improving infrastructure etc. It's the usual politicking from Delaney but it's easy to read between the lines.

Basically the FAI are up for it, the big clubs North and South are up for it and momentum is a powerful thing.

KOH

[dcfcsteve]

Different facts, I would imagine. There was no Welsh league before 1992, so any Welsh team played in England. I think the Welsh league tried to make their clubs join the league, but some refused? Newport presumably gained an exemption as they were in the English league by necessity already and were under no compunction to move back. Even now some want to leave for England (eg Rhyl). That argument doesn't hold for NI clubs joining the eircom League or vice versa.

Sorry Pineapple, but you're completely and utterly wrong again.

There were Welsh leagues prior to 1992 for teams to play in - but no national one. The Welsh FA set one up to protect their international team's position, and they sought to force ALL the Welsh clubs playing in England to join their new league. Some did (e.g. Bangor and Rhyl) but a hard-core refused (namely Newport, Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham and Merthyr). Newport did NOT get any sort of exemption from the Welsh FA on this just because they were already playing in England (as were all the others, btw).

To punish them for refusing to join their new league, the Welsh FA therefore said that as it was the body in charge of football in Wales, Welsh-based clubs who refused to join the Welsh Pyramid system could no longer play within the borders of the nation of Wales. The clubs refused - and as a result for 2 years they were forced to play their home games in various grounds in England instead (e.g. Kidderminster, Chester).

Eventually the clubs - lead by Newport - took advantage of the Restraint of Trade regulations in the Massstricht Treaty (that came into force at the end of 1992) to take the Welsh FA to court. They lost their initial case, but it eventually made its way to the English High Court (which also covers Wales) in 1994 where, under the statutes of Competition and Restraint of Trade contained within EU law, Lord Blackburn judged that the Welsh FA was actign illegally in seeking to prevent any team within its juridiction from 'plying their trade' in any other EU footballing jurisdiction. As a result, the clubs were able to return to playing English-pyramid games in their home grounds in Wales.

This was a test case under European law, and a clear judgement was made. It therefore affects ANY club in ANY EU footballing jurisdiction - including Irish clubs.

Everything I am stating here was explained to me directly in some detail by a man who was Chief Executive of the Welsh FA for 13 years, and a member of UEFA's governing committee (Alun Evans). I should suspect he knows his stuff......

[dcfcsteve]

Irish Daily Mirror

Headline - Delaney won't stand in the way of All-Ireland League...in fact he likes the idea.

"As far as I'm concerned I will give the members what they want. Nobody owns the FAI. So I will support the wishes of the clubs. But like everything in life you have to do things gradually. It's a crawl, walk, run process.

Two years ago people would have said a cross-border tournament was a pie-in-the-sky idea. No one would have thought that Derry could go to Windsor Park for a competitive game. But it has happened. The Setanta Cup is established now. It's a great tournament.

I was there on Monday night in Windsor and it was a marvelous atmospheric occassion. Where it goes from here? Only time will tell. My personal view is that I am here to support the clubs. and if they want to go and pursue an All-Ireland league then we wil look at that.

Alternatively if they want to extend the Setanta Cup then we will look at that option. But it must be what clubs on both sides of the border want and what both associations want."

And there's loads more like that, along the lines of Genesis recommending an all-island league, improving infrastructure etc. It's the usual politicking from Delaney but it's easy to read between the lines.

Basically the FAI are up for it, the big clubs North and South are up for it and momentum is a powerful thing.

KOH

The writing is on the wall really.

Incidentally - there is a major row brewing over the British government's strong desire to enter a 'Great Britain' football team into the 2012 World Cup. The Scots and Welsh rightly fear that it will set a precedent against the indefensible situation of the UK being the only political institution in the world to have multiple international football teams. There are a lot of voices in FIFA/world football who want to see this historical anachronism end, and any combined Olympics team will give them a hell of a precedent to push with in achieving this aim.

It's always interesting how small, seemingly insignificant things now can have a big impact upon much more in the future. Roll on 2012....

[NY Hoop]

There's an enormous difference between being "up for it" and it happening.

To put it starkly the FAI have been told by UEFA that an All Ireland League cannot happen without political unity. If they sanctioned it tomorrow there is nothing to stop the old firm playing in the premiership or other clubs playing in other leagues.

There is also the issue that Jeffrey was alluding to the other night that the whole island would only have 4 European spots. This is a side issue but relevant nonetheless.

In fairness to Delaney he cant come out and say no to an AIL publicly. Privately he knows the truth.

Dcfcsteve check your PM. The welsh case is entirely different.

KOH

[dcfcsteve]

To put it starkly the FAI have been told by UEFA that an All Ireland League cannot happen without political unity. If they sanctioned it tomorrow there is nothing to stop the old firm playing in the premiership or other clubs playing in other leagues.

Not supported by legal fact - as explained in some detail above, and as explained to me by a former member of both UEFA and FIFA Management Committees. Who should know his stuff better than you or I really.........


There is also the issue that Jeffrey was alluding to the other night that the whole island would only have 4 European spots. This is a side issue but relevant nonetheless.

This issue is a complete and utter red herring, that is brought up every time with no real thought attributed to it.

Yes - having a single league would see the ISLAND OF IRELAND losing 4 Euro slots. However - no single team in either the EL or IL would lose any Euro slots. Here's why. Currently Linfield can play for one of only 4 European slots available to them in the IrishLeague. If they joined the EL, they'd still be playing for one of only 4 Euro slots available. If there was an all-island league each team would still be eligible for only one of only 4 Euro slots. There would therefore be NO CHANGE to their current circumstances.

To put it in layman's terms - the government may decide to give each household a 10% salary tax break. If you live on your own your household would therefore get that 10% tax break on your salary, as would your girlfriend if she lived on her own. If you then moved into your girlfriend's household and knocked your old place down, you would STILL only get the 10% tax break - not a 20% one ! And neither you nor she would have lost out on ANYTHING.

Conversely - you could argue strongly that an all-island league would lead to improved Euro performances/co-efficients - and thereby increase the total number of Euro slots available to each and every team within it. Hey presto - all-island league actually leads to INCREASE in available Euro slots.


Dcfcsteve check your PM. The welsh case is entirely different.

Can you send again - my inbox was full. Or better still - just post it here as part of the debate.

[pineapple stu]

Yes - having a single league would see the ISLAND OF IRELAND losing 4 Euro slots. However - no single team in either the EL or IL would lose any Euro slots. Here's why. Currently Linfield can play for one of only 4 European slots available to them in the IrishLeague. If they joined the EL, they'd still be playing for one of only 4 Euro slots available. If there was an all-island league each team would still be eligible for only one of only 4 Euro slots. There would therefore be NO CHANGE to their current circumstances.
Steve, we've had this argument before, and your continuing bad maths makes me worry about the rest of your argument.

Currently, there are 12 teams in the eircom League Premier Division, so each had (on average, and assuming a First Division team doesn't get into Europe) a 4 in 12 chance of getting into Europe - 0.333.

There are 18 teams in the IL Premier, so a 4 in 18 chance - 0.222.

A unified Irish league would have those 30 teams fighting over 4 places, so a 4 in 30 chance - 0.133.

There is quite clearly a change in the chances of getting into Europe.

There would be no change, however, given that you are in the Premier Division. Which is a big assumption.

Don't even try and argue this one. Your maths are quite simply wrong, and no rhetoric can change the fact. Let's have a million-team Premier with four Euro slots - do you still think the odds of getting into Europe are the same? It's a major issue (though arguably not the way clubs should be looking, but anyway), end of story.

[NY Hoop]

Steve clear your inbox.

Thanks

[dcfcsteve]

Steve, we've had this argument before, and your continuing bad maths makes me worry about the rest of your argument.

Currently, there are 12 teams in the eircom League Premier Division, so each had (on average, and assuming a First Division team doesn't get into Europe) a 4 in 12 chance of getting into Europe - 0.333.

There are 18 teams in the IL Premier, so a 4 in 18 chance - 0.222.

A unified Irish league would have those 30 teams fighting over 4 places, so a 4 in 30 chance - 0.133.

There is quite clearly a change in the chances of getting into Europe.

There would be no change, however, given that you are in the Premier Division. Which is a big assumption.

Don't even try and argue this one. Your maths are quite simply wrong, and no rhetoric can change the fact. Let's have a million-team Premier with four Euro slots - do you still think the odds of getting into Europe are the same? It's a major issue (though arguably not the way clubs should be looking, but anyway), end of story.

I will argue it Pineapple because your arguement falls down on 3 key grounds :

1) Size of Premiership
- You are assuming that any All-island Premier Division would be a straight combination of all the current Premier teams north and south (there are only 16 teams in the ILP btw, not 18). This is highly unlikely to happen.
- I accept that any of the 28 current 'premier teams north and south who didn't make it into an AIL Premiership, would be denied access to a Euro slot they would otherwise have technically been able to compete for. But so fcuk. Reality suggests that this would make little or no difference, as follows.

2) Qualification chances in sport cannot be explained simply by the law of mathematical averages.
- Do Brazil and Trinidad both GENUINELY have the same chance of winning the World Cup this year ? The mathematical laws of averages says they do ! Meanwhile, sporting reality asserts strongly that Trinidad have no chance.
- Likewise, Ards are an Irish League Premier Division team.
- They haven't won any trophy that would see them qualify for Europe in 32 years.
- They did blag an Inter-toto slot in 1997 - but nothing in the 23 years in-between and nothing since.
- Meanwhile, Linfield have been an Irish League rep in Europe practically EVERY SINGLE YEAR for as far back as anyone can remember.
- The mathematical law of averages may therefore claim that both Ards and Linfield have an equal chance of qualifying for Europe - but sporting fact highlights that this would clearly be an absurd expectation to make.
- The law of averages is completely ineffectual in highlighting the genuine chances of success of sporting teams. That is why bookies offer odds - not averages.
- Therefore : so feck if the likes of Ards or Larne didn't make any AIL Premier Division. They're unlikely to qualify for the Euro slots available to top-finishing teams anyway - regardless of what league they're in.

3) Your arguement is more one against an increase in the size of ANY Premier Division - and not one exclusively against an AIL.
- Ignoring for a moment the fact that the law of averages is meaningless when determining chances of success for sporting teams : when the EL Premier Division recently increased to 12 teams, the simple mathematical chances of Euro qualification also changed for the EL teams. Big deal.
- Likewise : when the IL has gone through its numerous changes re the size of their top division, the basic mathematical 'averages' regarding Euro qualification slots have likewise fluxed for their teams.
- If you're syaing that an all-Ireland league damages teams likelihood to qualify for Europe on the basis of each team facing more competitors, then you should also be arguing for the smallest possible Premier Divisions as well. Or at the very least for no increases whatsoever. Ever.
- Your argument is therefore not one against an All-island league, but one against any growth in the size of top divisions - regardless of where the teams in those divisions originate from.

[pineapple stu]

Steve, 8>4. It's quite simple.

Let's look at it this way. NI teams - Linfield, Glentoran, Portadown and Dungannon are in Europe next year. Irish teams Cork, Derry, Drogheda and Shels are in. Under a unified league, four of those would miss out.

My point about averages was meant to take the league as a whole, not to consider any one team in particular. If you average the odds of all the clubs in the league qualifying for Europe, you get the average (there's that word again), which is what I compared. If you reduce the league's average, it can clearly be seen that every club in that group's average reduces. Take the two examples you quoted. Ards' actual chances of getting to Europe based on the past 30 years is 1 in 30. Now it'd be nil. That's a reduction. But you eloquently dismiss this by saying "fcuk it", and ironically by saying that they were "unlikely" to qualify before - odds which by definition are higher than none, which would now be their odds. You also quote Linfield getting into Europe every year. Do you think that'd happen in a unified league? Of course not. So their average would reduce. Shels have qualified for Europe the past 12 years or so - would that happen in a unified league? Probably not. So their average would reduce.

Your post is an absolute triumph of loquacious waffling over hard maths.

[OneRedArmy]

I don't think anyone is doubting UEFA or FIFA would resist a cross-border League as it is a fundamental change to their neat, functional and overwhelmingly national FA view of organised football.

However, that doesn't automatically imply they are right and their word is gospel. The Bosman ruling similarly shook up football and was widely resisted as it protected the established hegemony, but as that ruling proved, the Courts have very little time for historical reasoning and rely on assessing the information before them in against the provisions of the compendium of European Statutes.

So its not going to happen next year or the year after, but its not impossible, whatever UEFA may say.

[OneRedArmy]

Steve, 8>4. It's quite simple.

.....

Your post is an absolute triumph of loquacious waffling over hard maths.and your post is akin to re-arranging deckchairs on the Titantic.
Given the financial possibilities of an All-Ireland League, I suspect the big clubs would be more than willing to take their chance of a slightly reduced chance of qualifying for Europe for the growth possibilites on offer.

And as has been mentioned before, it only takes a few clubs to make it happen, the FAI and IFA could be left swinging in the wind if they don't join in.

I can understand your point of view however. For all bar the 6 (plus or minus) largest clubs (and I don't mean most successful) North and South, playing in a feeder League would not be an attractive proposition in the long-term.

[pineapple stu]

Given the financial possibilities of an All-Ireland League, I suspect the big clubs would be more than willing to take their chance of a slightly reduced chance of qualifying for Europe for the growth possibilites on offer.
I agree entirely. I'm just trying to correct Steve's maths. As a UCD fan, I'd welcome it too (though with the proviso of an expanded Premier). We'd still have the Fair Play award anyway!


And as has been mentioned before, it only takes a few clubs to make it happen, the FAI and IFA could be left swinging in the wind if they don't join in.
If the IFA and the FAI don't join in, there's no European slots at all. The clubs have much less sway than you make out.

[dcfcsteve]

Steve, 8>4. It's quite simple.

Look at it this way. NI teams - Linfield, Glentoran, Portadown and Dungannon are in Europe next year. Irish teams Cork, Derry, Drogheda and Shels are in. Under a unified league, four of those would miss out.

My point about averages was meant to take the league as a whole, not to consider any one team in particular. If you average the odds of all the clubs in the league qualifying for Europe, you get the average (there's that word again), which is what I compared. If you reduce the league's average, it can clearly be seen that every club in that group's average reduces. Take the two examples you quoted. Ards' actual chances of getting to Europe based on the past 30 years is 1 in 30. Now it'd be nil. That's a reduction. But you eloquently dismiss this by saying "fcuk it", and ironically by saying that they were "unlikely" to qualify before - odds which by definition are higher than none, which would now be their odds. You also quote Linfield getting into Europe every year. Do you think that'd happen in a unified league? Of course not. So their average would reduce. Shels have qualified for Europe the past 12 years or so - would that happen in a unified league? Probably not. So their average would reduce.

Your post is an absolute triumph of loquacious waffling over hard maths.

Pineapple,

I totally understand what you're saying. However - I'm saying that to look at the situation solely through basic mathematical eyes is at best irrelevant, and at worst misleading.

If there was an all-island league tomorrow, then yes - the 8 Euro slots that the island of Ireland currently has would be reduced to 4. But as no SINGLE club is able to compete for those 8 slots, then that numerical change is frankly meaningless to each individual club.

Beyond that, every single thing you've been saying is an arguement against increasing the number or quality of teams in the top division. They are NOT arguements exclusively against an all-island League. You can't say that an all-island league will impact European qualification, using basic maths to argue it, but then not say the same is true for every other significant change we've had in our league - the introduction of Cork and Longford in 1984, the large 1985 expansion, the introduction of a mid-season split in the table, the 16 team premier, the 14 team premier, the 10 team premier, the 12 team premier etc etc. You're being dishonest here by suggesting that your wonderful mathematical conundrums are exclusively negative when applied to an All-island League. Your arguments are arguments against change to the number or quality of teams in the top division - FULL STOP. It's misleading to therefore suggest that this is only relevant in the context of an all-island league.

If you're going to argue that an all-island league has a negative impact upon individual clubs chances of European qualification - then I also expect you to come out and say the same for ANY other change to our league. Anything else would be misleading or hypocritical.

[pineapple stu]

Steve, your argument is that reducing the number of European places in the league won't actually make it any more difficult to get into Europe, and that it consequently isn't an issue. That's nonsense. Your household example is completely irrelevant. If you were to shoot four people out of 12 in one group, and 4 out of 18 in another group, and then offer them the chance of going into one big group and only 4 of that group being shot, you'd soon see your maths invalidated.

I am in favour of an All-Ireland league, as I have said numerous times here before. I have said I wouldn't mind seeing it in conjunction with an increase in the size of the Premier. But I don't use wrong maths to argue my point.

[derrymac]

Surely there is precendent for the old clubs to just reapply to the IFA, Shelbourne, Bohemians, Derry City and the other clubs who i can't remember of the top of my head could all reapply to the IFA and leave the FAI. Cork City who only started in 1984 could apply under the grounds that it's boring in the FAI . With the precedants already in place that clubs from one side of the border can play in the other, and with the big teams gone, slowly the Eircom League would cease to be meaningful and an all ireland league would be created. Eventually even the first division clubs would be playing up north and we could marvel at the clash of Institute vs Kilkenny. We would alas be under the jurisdiction of an organisation as bigoted towards certain clubs as the FAI is, but sure no change there.

[DmanDmythDledge]

http://www.rte.ie/aertel/p221.htm

Just wondering what everyone thinks of this. I don't see the point in having a league between two seperate organisations. It would be the same as merging the Premiership and the SPL.

[dcfcsteve]

Steve, your argument is that reducing the number of European places in the league won't actually make it any more difficult to get into Europe, and that it consequently isn't an issue. That's nonsense. Your household example is completely irrelevant. If you were to shoot four people out of 12 in one group, and 4 out of 18 in another group, and then offer them the chance of going into one big group and only 4 of that group being shot, you'd soon see your maths invalidated.

I am in favour of an All-Ireland league, as I have said numerous times here before. I have said I wouldn't mind seeing it in conjunction with an increase in the size of the Premier. But I don't use wrong maths to argue my point.

Your entire arguement is based on a presumption on the size of the Premier division in any All-island League - and on another presumption regarding how many teams would be in that league overall. It is highly unlikely that the reality will reflect your presumptions.

You also seem unwilling to step outside your fascination with mathematical averages and accept that the likes of Ards, Larne, Finn Harps, Dublin City etc have little chance of European qualification in the short-to-medium term - regardless of which side of the border they play on, or how big the league they play in is (unless it's so small that they'd struggle NOT to qualify). Hence - it is frankly academic for a lot of teams whether or not the island as a whole loses Euro slots, as they aren't in the running for any such slots north, south, or cross-border anyway.

Regardless - back to the main substance of the issue. There is a legal precedent that means the IFA and/or FAI would be powerless to stop an all-island league taking place even if they wanted to. All they could do would be to withhold Euro slots. But even if they did take that drastic measure, it wouldn't last long. In the incerdibly political world of international football, an association that has lost jurisdiction over either its biggest and best clubs, or indeed all of its clubs, would be a complete laughing stock. Hence - any breakaway would sooner or later be followed by a face-saving resolution with the Association(s) and a return of any with-held Euro slots.

[A face]

One thing on all of this is it wont be easy, it'll take a bit of time to work things out if all parties sit down to sort it out. All clubs will want the best possible deal for themselves, and so far not many have looked at the overall benefits for the league (if they merged) .... and there has been nothing near 'the greater good' considered by any club to date.

The thing about it, for all stakeholders is that there are alot of benefits to be had from the merger, alot of clubs seem themselves losing what benefits they have and dont really see any of the possibilities. There is alot of potential but its as if they assume that this will not be realised, straight away they think it'll fail, but on no clear basis, the reasoning isn't very sound (thats when the ever was any reasoning) in my opnion.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Thought it was great when the IFA guy was saying about Celtic and Rangers and that they'll never play in England, and Roddy counters with the fact that teams from Wales play in England and there is a football league in Wales.

The teams from Wales played in England for around 100 years before Wales had a proper National League. The League of Wales only began in 1992.

[sonofstan]

Cork City who only started in 1984 could apply under the grounds that it's boring in the FAI . . Eventually even the first division clubs would be playing up north and we could marvel at the clash of Institute vs Kilkenny. We would alas be under the jurisdiction of an organisation as bigoted towards certain clubs as the FAI is, but sure no change there.
brilliant:D

[A face]

This particular aspect of the argument reminds me of the old classic Monkey Trap story. Basically, in this story, the trapper hollows out a small hole in a tree and baits it with tempting morsels of food to attract monkeys. Eventually a Monkey puts it's hand into the hole and grips the food tightly. The problem for the monkey is that in gripping the food, he makes a fist and he is no longer able to release his hand from the hole in the tree. The trap works successfully only as a result of the monkeys inability to make the correct decision. At any time the monkey can let the food loose and release himself from the trap. His problem is that he is unable to realise that in order to preserve his life he needs to sacrifice the morsels of food. Lacking that intelligence, the monkey remains trapped. I believe that the attraction of easy qualification to Europe is the food in the monkey trap." We are so attracted by the thought of easy euro lucre that we are forgetting that our game and our clubs are having the life strangled out of them by having to compete week in, week out, in competitions no-one is interested in."

This is gold !! (http://sidereus.org/MONEY/images/01-gold-bar.jpg)

[pineapple stu]

:rolleyes:

You also seem unwilling to step outside your fascination with mathematical averages
Mathematical averages are very useful. That's why we have them.

and accept that the likes of Ards, Larne, Finn Harps, Dublin City etc have little chance of European qualification in the short-to-medium term...it is frankly academic for a lot of teams whether or not the island as a whole loses Euro slots, as they aren't in the running for any such slots north, south, or cross-border anyway.
But the point is they quite clearly would have less chance in the new league, which defeats your point. You can't use English to argue that "little chance" and "no chance" are the same thing.

Also, Linfield would have much tougher competition for their place in Europe and wouldn't qualify always. Ditto Glentoran and Portadown.

Losing European slots is quite clearly an issue Steve. I've proved it numerous times. Please accept this fact and move on. There are plenty of other issues which would be better for discussion.

(Whether or not it's a big deal, as BohsFan points out, is a different, and interesting, issue. It just annoys me to see people something really forcefully using clearly rubbish maths)

[CollegeTillIDie]

There are way too many clubs playing League football on this island , especially North of the Border. The number of clubs South of the border in financial difficulties is one example of it. There are also a number of clubs North of the border struggling financially. The demise of Omagh Town is another example of it, and over the next 5-10 years I expect to see anywhere from 2-4 clubs South of the Border go bust and another 5-10 clubs North of the border go bust.

That would leave before the advent of an All-Ireland League something like an 18 team Eircom League and possibly only a two division Irish League.

[pete]

Losing European slots is quite clearly an issue Steve. I've proved it numerous times. Please accept this fact and move on. There are plenty of other issues which would be better for discussion.


You may think its an issue but it should not be so. An objective behind an all-ireland league would be to ensure professional football in this country through bigger crowds & financing. If clubs only see Europe as a holiday then they don't deserve to be in top flight football anyway.

[pineapple stu]

You may think its an issue but it should not be so.
I'm saying mathematically, it is an issue, which Steve denies. I've said that it's an interesting and unclear issue in reality. However, Europe is a good money-earner, I would have thought - something like E70k prize money just for qualifying, with an extra (usually) big home gate to come and a higher profile and possibly TV money to be had for progression. There mightn't be much money if you get knocked out to some random eastern team in the first round, but I'd hope our league anyway would be looking further than that now to the games against Depor, Lille, Nantes, Kaiserslautern, etc. I wouldn't be convinced that Shels, say, would risk losing a European slot just so they can play Dungannon twice a season.

[Partizan]

Just thought i'd throw the cat amongst the pidgeons here but since the initial premise of Derry's inclusion into the LOI in 1985 looks 'anachronistic' (God spite me for saying that word) given the current political process, are there moves underfoot by the IFA to bring Derry City back into the IL.

This could be a double edged sword here being the fact the the talk of the proposed AIL might make the IFA move on Derry. Is Derry's membership of the eL copperfastened by both FIFA & UEFA?

[Speranza]

Our presence in the EL is copperfastened by us as a club. It will NEVER EVER happen. I would imagine that every single person who is a regular at the Brandy would feel nauseas at very suggestion of a return. :mad:

[dcfcsteve]

I'm saying mathematically, it is an issue, which Steve denies.

And I'm saying it's not an issue full stop - either mathematically or otherwise.

As you say - averages are important, which is why we have them. But averages are also considered broadly irrelevant in predicting sporting performance - which is why bookies use odds, not averages.

And you still refuse to accept that your arguement is one regarding change to the number and quality of teams in the Tiop league - and NOT one specifically regarding an all-island league. Derry City and Bray joining the league in 1985 reduced everyone else's chances of Euro qualification, as did the introduction of Cork and Longford in 1984. The reintroduction of a 12 team league in 2005 will mathematically have had a big impact upon team's chances of Euro qualification - though the fact that only 1 of the 3 league-based Euro qualifying teams altered from the previous season belies how irrelevant this mathematical 'analysis' is in reality. Even Drogheda joining the league in 1963 has now turned out to have reduced everyone elses chances of qualifying for Europe. BIG FECKIN' DEAL !!!!. This exposes what a complete and utter red herring it is to dogmatically criticise an all-island league for the impact it will have on team's mathematical chances of Euro qualification. I don't recall anyone raising the red herring of Euro qualification becoming more difficult when any of these other changes were made to our league ??

Regardless - we'll just have to agree to differ on this one Pineapple. My viewpoint remains unchanged - Euro slots are frankly a mathematical and actual red herring in this whole issue, just as they have been in other league issues were they were equally as 'valid', but remained unmentioned by anyone at all.