Jim Roddy - All-Ireland League

[David]

To keep up my cynicism of IL away support....the reason Blues and Glens take big support to these matches is because the Setanta cup and process of travelling to strange places is still a novelty. For further evidence of this check our own away support when we first came into the EL, although we still travel well the numbers in those days were amazing.

In an AIL this novelty will die and give it a few years and I would say you won't get this 700 crowd to Cork or Waterford.

I don't think anyone has ever claimed we would consistently take that sort of crowd to Cork or Waterford. However to the likes of Dublin clubs and yourselves (tickets permitting) we would consistently take a four figure support as we do now to every IL game

[MariborKev]

I think any club who can regularly turn out 700 plus away following during the worst season on and off the pitch in living memory can certainly have "something to shout about", regardless of distance travelled.

Lux,

Some of the mid ninetines years were fairly woeful too:D

[NY Hoop]

im laughing at that post anyway:D:D

Same here!

Rovers have won 10 games in Europe, shels 6.

KOH

[Bald Student]

Rovers have won 10 games in Europe, shels 6.Can anyone match UCD's unbeaten at home in Europe record? Man United lasted 40 years but UCD are at infinity, and counting.

[dcfcsteve]

Can anyone match UCD's unbeaten at home in Europe record? Man United lasted 40 years but UCD are at infinity, and counting.

But there's a very good reason why, Bald Student..... !

Monaghan United have never lost a game in Europe.

[pineapple stu]

Monaghan have never played; we've played twice. Everton and Velbazhd Kyustendil.

The most recent club to fall was Longford - drew against Litex but then lost against Vaduz.

[A face]

In an AIL this novelty will die and give it a few years and I would say you won't get this 700 crowd to Cork or Waterford.

Just want to put this out there as no one seems to be even thinking about this.

Do clubs not think that with an All-Ireland and improved quality of the games, their clubs support will not increase, i know the alot of City fans are hoping this would be the case if we were to have an All-Ireland league. Its not like there isn't room for this to happen, the potential for attracting more support is huge imo.

[pineapple stu]

Do clubs not think that with an All-Ireland and improved quality of the games, their clubs support will not increase.
To be honest, I can't see it being the panacea for both leagues it's being touted as. Don't forget, summer soccer was supposed to bring the crowds back in their droves. Linfield v Rovers and the likes are mentioned as mouth-watering ties, but for evey one of those, there's many more Dungannon v Longford or even Linfield v Longford games.

[A face]

To be honest, I can't see it being the panacea for both leagues it's being touted as. Don't forget, summer soccer was supposed to bring the crowds back in their droves. Linfield v Rovers and the likes are mentioned as mouth-watering ties, but for evey one of those, there's many more Dungannon v Longford or even Linfield v Longford games.

Its the quality of football that will bring people back. Summer soccer on its own would never be the answer. IMO, with City it was the quality of football that brought people back and kept them there.

Attracting new crowds will take alot of work imo, but it'll get easier with a better product. Its getting people to change their habits and attend games on a regular basis.

[pineapple stu]

It's the quality of football that will bring people back.
Same argument holds though. Why would Dungannon v Longford be significantly more exciting than Dungannon v Newry or Longford v UCD?

[monkey magic]

Its the quality of football that will bring people back. Summer soccer on its own would never be the answer. IMO, with City it was the quality of football that brought people back and kept them there.

Attracting new crowds will take alot of work imo, but it'll get easier with a better product. Its getting people to change their habits and attend games on a regular basis.

the quality of football on show in the eircom league is the one thing barstoolers and followers of the premiership claim is the reason they dont follow the el. IMO a rise in the quality of football is the only thing that will bring more support to the league. an AIL with only the best teams in the land in it is the best way of doing this.

[A face]

the quality of football on show in the eircom league is the one thing barstoolers and followers of the premiership claim is the reason they dont follow the el. IMO a rise in the quality of football is the only thing that will bring more support to the league. an AIL with only the best teams in the land in it is the best way of doing this.

Thats where i disagree to a point, i actually think alot of barstoolers cant actually tell the difference !! :p

I actually think that an AIL will command more media coverage and put it in the shop window more, that is one of the problems .... it is actually just not evident. Most barstoolers would struggle to hold a conversation on eL or IL simply because they just dont know about it though lack of media coverage. Most barstoolers have never been in an English ground yet could tell you load of useless info on the game because it is rammed down their throats at every opportunity by the media.

[pineapple stu]

That's where I disagree to a point, I actually think a lot of barstoolers can't actually tell the difference !! :p
Would actually agree to an extent here. Barstoolers say they wouldn't watch the eL because of the quality - but they say that because that's the reply to give, not necessarily because they believe it to be true. Now obviously, the eL isn't La Liga, but I watched both Chelsea v Barcelona games - billed as sensational clashes - and both were very very ordinary games really. Not much more excitement than at Cork v Dungannon.


I actually think that an AIL will command more media coverage and put it in the shop window more
Again though - summer soccer hasn't done much for media coverage; I don't think an AIL would have the huge effect that is being predicted. Wouldn't do any harm like, but certainly wouldn't suddenly make the media devote column feet rather than inches or make barstoolers sit up and take notice.

[dcfcsteve]

Monaghan have never played; we've played twice. Everton and Velbazhd Kyustendil.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king....

Congratulations to UCD on such a proud European record. Thank God your mediocrity before and since then has helped to keep that proud record intact.

I hope you've informed 'World Soccer' magazine....

:D

[Shimokita]

If Celtic and Rangers move to the Premiership, I'd rather see a Celtic League forming (like there is in rugby). Any thoughts?

[Raheny Red]

If Celtic and Rangers move to the Premiership, I'd rather see a Celtic League forming (like there is in rugby). Any thoughts?

I reckon if that was proposed it won't be for another 7-10 years! There would be too many teams against it! Just think a first division club could end up been in a third or fourth tier league! Between the four associations there are (16:confused: ) places if that all went into one that would end up just 4 places!
However, there would be great weekend trips to Scotland! :)

[pineapple stu]

Congratulations to UCD on such a proud European record. Thank God your mediocrity before and since then has helped to keep that proud record intact.
Hey, if it were a league table, we'd be a point behind youz with several games in hand!;)

Rather fundamental difference between comparing us and Monaghan. I thought I'd point it out to you seeing as we all know your maths isn't the best...

[pineapple stu]

If Celtic and Rangers move to the Premiership, I'd rather see a Celtic League forming (like there is in rugby). Any thoughts?
Just one. UEFA. No chance.

[dcfcsteve]

Hey, if it were a league table, we'd be a point behind youz with several games in hand!;)

Rather fundamental difference between comparing us and Monaghan. I thought I'd point it out to you seeing as we all know your maths isn't the best...

I know full-well Monaghan have never been in Europe. Just thought I'd point that out to you seeing as we all know your humour isn't the best..... :D :p

[dcfcsteve]

Just one. UEFA. No chance.

PLEEEEEEASE Pineapple - we've done this debate to death on another thread !!!

How many times do I have to explain this - you're completely and utterly wrong ! Under both EU Restraint of Trade and Competition laws - as confirmed in the 1994 test case ruling by Lord Blackburn in the British High Court (ruling made with-reference to EU law) - there is nothing UEFA could do to stop the Old Firm joining the English structure, so long as the English clubs voted to accept them.

If you have legal advice/evidence that would over-rule this, please state it. Otherwise, stop ignoring the legal and factual reality of the situation. This is really getting tedious......

[pineapple stu]

So why hasn't it happened anywhere else in Europe in the last ten years (bar a couple of special instances like FC Vaduz and San Marino, where the country is too small to have a proper league and the country also has very close ties with the country whose leagues those clubs entered)? Why haven't the G14 broken away to form their own super league? Why should clubs have to vote on it - surely that's a restraint of trade?

Either way, a Celtic football league is complete pie in the sky. Just another of the utter absurdities to add weight - physically, not literally - to the Genesis Report.

[Schumi]

If Celtic and Rangers move to the Premiership, I'd rather see a Celtic League forming (like there is in rugby). Any thoughts?
Unfeasable I think. The travelling costs would be too big.

[Bald Student]

One of the big advantages of an AIL that I see is that there would be enough teams of a reasonable quality to have a 16 team league so we would only have 2 rounds of games. It would make games more of an event if your home crowd only gets to see a team once a year.

The big thing though is publicity. There's a negative image that the league has which, in my opinion, is almost completly unwarrented. You'll oftem hear people say that the grounds in the eL are a dump but you never hear that criticism of rugby or gaa grounds even though their grounds can me much worse. For example, to bring the UCD rugby ground up to football standard will take about a million euro's worth of work.

Peple will come if they feel as though there is an exciting event on.

[dcfcsteve]

So why hasn't it happened anywhere else in Europe in the last ten years (bar a couple of special instances like FC Vaduz and San Marino, where the country is too small to have a proper league and the country also has very close ties with the country whose leagues those clubs entered)? Why haven't the G14 broken away to form their own super league? Why should clubs have to vote on it - surely that's a restraint of trade?

Firstly - just because something HASN'T happened, doesn't mean it never will, or more importantly can't. A clear legal precedent was set on this 12 years ago. To ignore that fact and claim anything else based purely on one's own unproven opinions is absurd.

Secondly - the Champions League has been crafted and re-crafted a number of times over the last decade by UEFA specifically to remove/delay the thread of break-aways occuring. That is abundantly clear to anyone who has been following European football closely. They've successfully kept the big boys (G14) happy - for now. Their ability to do so ongoing is in question, however. So the main reason why a breakaway hasn't happend to-date is that the key clubs involved have managed to get what they wanted (i.e. more big games and more revenue) without taking such drastic steps.

Thirdly - the reason, for example, English clubs would need to vote to accept the Old Firm into the English structure should be patently obvious. All football Associations have defined sets of rules - including rules governing how new teams can enter their structure etc. You cannot ignore those rules and just parachute teams in, as that would in itself be illegal by not following the association's guidelines. The organisation's own governing rules take precedence with regards the governing of its behaviour - unless those rules in-of themselves contradict national or European law. The rules on how teams get admitted etc into the leagues do not contradict restraint of trade law, as they are the same for all teams regardless of where they originate from. So - any team who unwillingly got hoofed-out of the Premiership/Championship to make way for the Old Firm would take legal recourse on the basis of the association not following it's own rules, and would win their case. If WBA unwillingly lost their Premier place to Accrington Stanley next year, they would be able to have it reversed legally due to the rules not being followed. Likewise if they lost it to the Old Firm unwillingly. The rule is consistent, regardless fo where the teams originate from. The organisation's own rules take precedent, so long as they don't specifically conflict with higher laws. Which in this case they don't.

Pineapple - I've quoted to you the legal case in which this ruling was made. I've also given you details of the former FIFA/UEFA Ruling Committee member who directly explained all of this to me. What more will it take for you to accept that what I'm saying is an established fact, rather than continue to ignore it in-favour of your own base-less assumptions ??

[pineapple stu]

Pineapple - I've quoted to you the legal case in which this ruling was made. I've also given you details of the former FIFA/UEFA Ruling Committee member who directly explained all of this to me. What more will it take for you to accept that what I'm saying is an established fact, rather than continue to ignore it in-favour of your own base-less assumptions ??
I don't know...I suppose losing your history of being able to talk the hind legs off a donkey and yet still be fundamentally wrong...boy who cried wolf and all that...;)

[Bald Student]

I don't know...I suppose losing your history of being able to talk the hind legs off a donkey and yet still be fundamentally wrong...boy who cried wolf and all that...;)The difference here is that he's fundamentally right. I can't think of any case of a club which wanted to move country being stopped but there are plenty of clubs who were allowed.

[pineapple stu]

there are plenty of clubs who were allowed.
Who? OK, you have the likes of Derry (special case due to political considerations), Gretna (again special case because they had been playing in England but were based in Scotland, so they were moving back home), Vaduz (special case as the Liechtenstein league disbanded and all its clubs entered the Swiss league; Liechtenstein and Switzerland have very close ties), San Marino (again, very close ties between San Marino and Italy), but all those have special cases attached.

Bar Celtic and Rangers, I haven't heard of anyone wanting to move leagues (and I imagine there are a few - the likes of Anderlecht, Ajax, Rosenborg, Skonto Riga, Lyon would be prime examples of clubs who could well feel they have outgrown their league), which would by exntesion mean you wouldn't have heard of many clubs not being allowed. The most likely reason I see for this is that they simply aren't allowed and they know it. UEFA and FIFA have oftentimes stated their opposition, but I don't think I've ever heard the legal cases Steve's referring to being mentioned by anyone - the clubs concerned, media, etc. Doesn't mean it's not there, but I'm sceptical nonetheless.

[A face]

If Celtic and Rangers move to the Premiership, I'd rather see a Celtic League forming (like there is in rugby). Any thoughts?

But its a fairly cráp league without them though isn't it ... what would be the point, what would we have to gain?

Nah forget it.

[Magicme]

Oi stop using us as an example....Kildare County and Dublin City (among others am sure) havent been in Europe either.....THIS IS OUR YEAR!

[dcfcsteve]

Who? OK, you have the likes of Derry (special case due to political considerations), Gretna (again special case because they had been playing in England but were based in Scotland, so they were moving back home), Vaduz (special case as the Liechtenstein league disbanded and all its clubs entered the Swiss league; Liechtenstein and Switzerland have very close ties), San Marino (again, very close ties between San Marino and Italy), but all those have special cases attached.

Bar Celtic and Rangers, I haven't heard of anyone wanting to move leagues (and I imagine there are a few - the likes of Anderlecht, Ajax, Rosenborg, Skonto Riga, Lyon would be prime examples of clubs who could well feel they have outgrown their league), which would by exntesion mean you wouldn't have heard of many clubs not being allowed. The most likely reason I see for this is that they simply aren't allowed and they know it. UEFA and FIFA have oftentimes stated their opposition, but I don't think I've ever heard the legal cases Steve's referring to being mentioned by anyone - the clubs concerned, media, etc. Doesn't mean it's not there, but I'm sceptical nonetheless.

Pineapple - there's no way I can say this without sounding harsh, but your consistent assertion of personal assumption over stated and sourced fact is really starting to bore now.

If you think I'm talking sh!t - fine. But go away and come back with the information to prove it. Google to your heart's content on the matter; write to Lord Blackburn himself, or even write to yer feckin MEP and ask for clarification if you're really that bothered. But otherwise - please shut the feck up and stop boring the arse off all of us, just because you refuse to have your own cherished opinions over-ruled by trivial points such as established judicial fact and the word of a former UEFA/FIFA ruling committee member.....:rolleyes:

[Lux Interior]

Lux,

Some of the mid ninetines years were fairly woeful too:D

:eek:

Conversely, Kev, those years you talk about (including the annus horriblis of 1993/94) seen some of the biggest away supports I've known since I've been following the Glens (and that's going on nearly 30 years now).

When our lads get together for a drunken blether about great games, the 'Cassidy Years' of 94-97 always feature highly. Something perverse about that, I think.

Interestingly, last year's title torpor was watched by a relatively low number of fans (if only we could attract even half the 7,000 who turned up in the home end on 23/4/05, we'd be like Shels, eh jolly rodge? Am I catching on?).

[pineapple stu]

Google to your heart's content on the matter
Took your advice and did a google search...eventually found it (after linking in here several times!). It does appear that a critical relevant fact was that the clubs concerned were playing in the English league at the time, as they had a right to as there was no Welsh league when they entered the English leagues. The Welsh FA then ordered those clubs to leave the English league and play in the Welsh league. They refused. Given that they had an option of playing in either league, the FAW's ordering the Welsh clubs to leave the English league to play in the Welsh league or to play English league games in England was a restriction of trade. However, nowhere does the summary I read (300-ish KB pdf version here) (http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_264.pdf) does it refer to a situation where clubs do not already have an option under UEFA rules to play in a different league.

It may well be that that case can be offered as some sort of precedent; however, the relevant facts are different and I don't see any reason why that case of itself should conclusively allow an All-Ireland league.

[Bald Student]

I'm not a leagle eagle but my own view is that if both sides of this island decided to go ahead with an AIL, UEFA would be afraid to take a court case and call it another exception.

[Slash/ED]

Same here!

Rovers have won 10 games in Europe, shels 6.

KOH

Irrelevent, Shels have won more ties, nobody remembers nor gives a toss about which loser won which one off match on their way out over two legs.

[anto eile]

However, nowhere does the summary I read (300-ish KB pdf version here) (http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_264.pdf) does it refer to a situation where clubs do not already have an option under UEFA rules to play in a different league..
uefa rules versus european law.therel be only only one winner.not uefa btw

[dcfcsteve]

Took your advice and did a google search...eventually found it (after linking in here several times!). It does appear that a critical relevant fact was that the clubs concerned were playing in the English league at the time, as they had a right to as there was no Welsh league when they entered the English leagues. The Welsh FA then ordered those clubs to leave the English league and play in the Welsh league. They refused. Given that they had an option of playing in either league, the FAW's ordering the Welsh clubs to leave the English league to play in the Welsh league or to play English league games in England was a restriction of trade. However, nowhere does the summary I read (300-ish KB pdf version here) (http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_264.pdf) does it refer to a situation where clubs do not already have an option under UEFA rules to play in a different league.

It may well be that that case can be offered as some sort of precedent; however, the relevant facts are different and I don't see any reason why that case of itself should conclusively allow an All-Ireland league.

A former member of FIFA and UEFA's ruling committee, who just so happened to be the President of the Welsh FA when they were taken to court over this very case, repeatedly confirmed to me directly and publically in a room full of sports academics and sports professionals (i.e. not some sort of off-the-record private conversation) that under European Law - as confirmed in this case - there was nothing legal that UEFA or the SFA could do to stop the Old Firm joining the English structure if the English clubs wanted to accept them.

Not only did you find nothing in your lengthy Google search to contradict this assertion - I think you'll excuse me (and seemingly the majority of people on this thread) if they accept his learned and directly-experienced word over your baseless personal assumptions on this matter...

C'mon Pineapple - stick to your maths and give up the ghost on this one..... :)

[dancinpants]

Irrelevent, Shels have won more ties, nobody remembers nor gives a toss about which loser won which one off match on their way out over two legs.

If we leave the coefficient out of it, it depends upon the quality of the opposition really...that being the case I'd put the Shamrock Rovers ahead of Shels.

[CollegeTillIDie]

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king....

Congratulations to UCD on such a proud European record. Thank God your mediocrity before and since then has helped to keep that proud record intact.

I hope you've informed 'World Soccer' magazine....

:D

At least we weren't beaten 4-0 by Welsh Opposition unlike some teams we could mention !

[dcfcsteve]

At least we weren't beaten 4-0 by Welsh Opposition unlike some teams we could mention !

Who was beaten 4:0 by a Welsh team......? :confused:

[pineapple stu]

Derry 0-4 Cardiff, 1988/89 Cup Winners' Cup.

By the way, do you want me to explain the difference between "baseless personal assumptions" and relevant facts in case law?

Facts, Steve, facts! :)

[CollegeTillIDie]

Who was beaten 4:0 by a Welsh team......? :confused:
dcfcsteve

Pineapple stu got it on the nose.. and by the way that was your famous treble winning team too.

[dcfcsteve]

Derry 0-4 Cardiff, 1988/89 Cup Winners' Cup.

By the way, do you want me to explain the difference between "baseless personal assumptions" and relevant facts in case law?

Facts, Steve, facts! :)

Ahhhh - I thought you were talking about recent results (e.g Longford).

Just you UCD boys keep patting yourselves on the back for the colossal strides you've made on behalf of Irish football over the years. Bravo chaps - we can never thank you enough...

And please do explain what the feck you're banging on about it PS - but do so in a PM so as to not bore the arse off anyone else on this. Interesting to hear you're still asserting that you know more about a particular footballing scenario than the FIFA rep who was directly involved in the establishment of that scenario in law in the first place. Have you family in the 'Flat Earth Society' or something....?

[CollegeTillIDie]

Ahhhh - I thought you were talking about recent results (e.g Longford).

Just you UCD boys keep patting yourselves on the back for the colossal strides you've made on behalf of Irish football over the years. Bravo chaps - we can never thank you enough...

And please do explain what the feck you're banging on about it PS - but do so in a PM so as to not bore the arse off anyone else on this. Interesting to hear you're still asserting that you know more about a particular footballing scenario than the FIFA rep who was directly involved in the establishment of that scenario in law in the first place. Have you family in the 'Flat Earth Society' or something....?

And where exactly do you think your club acquired Ciaran Martyn?
Where exactly did Clive Delaney make his name in the EL?
and No it wasn't St.Pat's!

[dcfcsteve]

And where exactly do you think your club acquired Ciaran Martyn?
Where exactly did Clive Delaney make his name in the EL?
and No it wasn't St.Pat's!

So we bought a player off UCD. Woo-hoo - your team must be rammered with Brazilian internationals then.

Hibs bought Ivan Sproule from Institute. That doesn't make Sproule a bad player, or Institute anything other than the muck team they are.

But thank God we have UCD's proud European heritage to save Ireland's tarnished history in Europe. PLEASE win the league this year and beat Barcelona in the 2007 Champions League Final. A club with your powerful European record can't turn it's back on the Eircom League in our hour of need !!!!

UCD for the World Club Championship !!

[pineapple stu]

Just you UCD boys keep patting yourselves on the back for the colossal strides you've made on behalf of Irish football over the years. Bravo chaps - we can never thank you enough...
Show me where we said that? Please resort to using facts rather than groundless personal opinions in your posts more, Steve. It's getting tiresome at this stage.

Mods - think a lock is in order?

[Student Mullet]

Steve,
I think you might be over reacting here a bit. All that Bald Student said was that we'd never lost a home game in europe, not that we were likely to win any european trophies.

In any case I think we've wandered a tad off topic.

[dcfcsteve]

Steve,
I think you might be over reacting here a bit. All that Bald Student said was that we'd never lost a home game in europe, not that we were likely to win any european trophies.

Not at all. UCD's lack of home defeat in Europe was presented as some sort of proud boast. In reality it's just a reflection of the medicority of the club.

The simple reason why UCD have been able to maintain their record of not losing a home game in Europe is because you so rarely get to play in it. Yes - you had 2 relatively good home results in the last 20+ years. But if you were playing in Europe more frequently than your current once-every-millenia appearance rate, you'd be clocking-up all manner of results - good, bad and ugly !

[dcfcsteve]

Show me where we said that? Please resort to using facts rather than groundless personal opinions in your posts more, Steve. It's getting tiresome at this stage.

:D :p

[Poor Student]

Not at all. UCD's lack of home defeat in Europe was presented as some sort of proud boast.



Actually, I think it was just a tongue in cheek post.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Not at all. UCD's lack of home defeat in Europe was presented as some sort of proud boast. In reality it's just a reflection of the medicority of the club.

The simple reason why UCD have been able to maintain their record of not losing a home game in Europe is because you so rarely get to play in it. Yes - you had 2 relatively good home results in the last 20+ years. But if you were playing in Europe more frequently than your current once-every-millenia appearance rate, you'd be clocking-up all manner of results - good, bad and ugly !

Well I doubt we'd lose 4-0 to Cardiff with a team capable of winning the Premier Division, F.A.I. Cup and League Cup here , but I could be wrong about that !:D