2023 UEFA European Under-17 Championship

[pineapple stu]

I'm not sure who's being held back either, I'd rather see a lad staying in Ireland until 21 and making a good career for himself at League One level rather than being churned out by the English academy system and being lost to football altogether.
Yeah, I agree with this. When the guys get to 18 they should be breaking into the first teams. Babb I know has already made his UCD debut for example. At that stage you do have to ask if it's worth giving up a fight for a first team spot to drop into an English academy (cos they're not going to be starters in England by and large)

The LoI is one of the youngest leagues in Europe in terms of player age - that's a bad thing in many ways but it does mean there's huge opportunities for these guys in the coming seasons.

So I just can't get on board with the idea that leaving Ireland at the earliest possible opportunity is the only way. 21 is fine.

[Eirambler]

For the best talents, it's really not fine. Having the likes of Ferguson, Collins and Bazunu stay in Ireland until 21 would have been disastrous for their long term development. It's fine for the likes of a Dawson Devoy or a Darragh Burns whose ceiling is probably League 1 regardless. But for the better players, it's nowhere near the standard they need.

Anyway, luckily it's a largely irrelevant discussion as there is no prospect of the better players being held back beyond 18 while the facilities in Ireland remain of the standard they are currently. Better players, understandably, won't accept that and will leave as soon as they can for the sake of their careers. Obviously it won't work out for every player, that's just the nature of it, but it means the best ones will continue to have the best opportunity to fulfill their potential.

[pineapple stu]

For the absolute best players, sure.

But you were talking about the entire squad ("Great chance to put themselves in the shop window for a transfer to Europe or to Britain once they turn 18.") with no consideration of whether there was a Ferguson, Collins or Bazunu there.

There's plenty of players who've started in LoI and made an international career out of it. Admittedly the odds of doing so when you move across to a club lower than Championship level are very reduced, but with crowds (and, presumably, money and even profile) in the LoI on the increase, hopefully facilities will start to improve too, and we can really start putting this sort of backwards idea behind us.

[Eirambler]

It is a great chance for the entire squad though. Naturally, in any underage squad, you might get one or two who go on to great things, a few more who forge solid careers and plenty who end up in regular jobs by the time they're 23. But this is an opportunity for these lads to show why they could be the one of the ones who can make it at a high level, and who get a move to a big club to hopefully progress from there. For those that aren't good enough for that the League of Ireland will be fine.

I don't see any significant change coming in the next five years in terms of domestic facilities. Maybe 15 years, who knows, but things aren't changing to any significant extent in the short term.

[pineapple stu]

It is a great chance for the entire squad though. [...] But this is an opportunity for these lads to show why they could be the one of the ones who can make it at a high level, and who get a move to a big club to hopefully progress from there.
As may be, but that chance doesn't have to be the first flight out of the country to whatever academy comes knocking on their 18th birthday, as you suggest.

[ontheotherhand]

I think it depends how they are treated. Look at ferizaj at shamrock rovers this season has been a write off so far for him no sign rovers are prioritising his development , he would be better off in a top academy if that's going to continue

Not quite the case Liam. If he came back to an academy in England in the shape he came back to Rovers in he could already be on the scrap heap. He was back in first team action last night after a spell where he was told to knuckle down and get serious.

[tetsujin1979]

‘We won’t be putting limits on them’ – Colin O’Brien’s faith in Ireland U17s ahead of Euro finals and World Cup bid
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/we-wont-be-putting-limits-on-them-colin-obriens-faith-in-ireland-u17s-ahead-of-euro-finals-and-world-cup-bid/a1448259994.html

[tetsujin1979]

Squad player profiles in today's independent
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/meet-the-ireland-u-17s-aiming-to-emulate-brian-kerrs-heroes-and-secure-euro-glory/a1074291516.html

[tetsujin1979]

lineup for first group game against Poland
1658827210298384388
Kick off in 40 minutes

[tetsujin1979]

Looks like there's going to be a stream on uefa.tv for anyone outside Ireland
https://www.uefa.tv/match/live/239959/2037822

[JR89]

Took 4mins for the lads to take the lead but Poland have equalised after 12mins after some poor defending.

[passinginterest]

Great start and took the lead in fifth minute but since scoring the defensive frailties have surfaced and Poland have just equalised in the 13th minute.

[tetsujin1979]

Poland seem to be bigger, faster, and better organised.
Our defence seem to be all marking the same player
There has been some nice touches from the Irish midfield

[CraftyToePoke]

2-1 to Poland at HT, and they are worth it.

[CraftyToePoke]

3-1 Poland. Getting a bit of a lesson here ATM

[CraftyToePoke]

& there is number four. Ouchies. This is a tough watch, a mis match.

[Eirambler]

With an almost entirely home based squad it's fair to say that this game is putting to bed any notions that our young players are somehow better off having to stay in Ireland longer and not having access to the academy setup of the wealthiest and strongest league in world football...

[pineapple stu]

What was being compared was senior first-team experience at 18 versus them all skipping home to join a lower-league academy at the same age. Looking at a group of 14-17 year-olds is a different matter. There's a huge amount of work to be done on the LoI academy setup for sure, and of course a bankrupt association not really in a position to help.

Even without Brexit, that work had to be done as the English clubs had long stopped being interested in any half-competent junior from here, which is why we've been sliding down the rankings the past 20 years.

[passinginterest]

With an almost entirely home based squad it's fair to say that this game is putting to bed any notions that our young players are somehow better off having to stay in Ireland longer and not having access to the academy setup of the wealthiest and strongest league in world football...

One game is not putting anything to bed either way. It's a very poor performance, but lets not forget they qualified ahead of Italy to get to this stage. They're learning some harsh lessons, but would expect much better from the next two games.

[tetsujin1979]

With an almost entirely home based squad it's fair to say that this game is putting to bed any notions that our young players are somehow better off having to stay in Ireland longer and not having access to the academy setup of the wealthiest and strongest league in world football...

Don't agree with that eirambler, we qualified with an almost entirely home based squad, see the first post in the thread, so clearly doing something right

[tetsujin1979]

According to the lineups on uefa.com - https://www.uefa.com/under17/match/2037822--poland-vs-republic-of-ireland/ - we're playing 5-3-2 and Poland have been playing 3-2-3-2
Not sure if Harnett and O'Sullivan have been playing full backs, as listed on uefa.com, or wing backs, but we've been clearly outnumbered in midfield, ceding possession and territory to the Polish midfield.
After concededing seven goals in six qualifying games, I can't believe we've conceded five in the opening game of the tournament

[pineapple stu]

Cawley calling it correctly on commentary - we have to develop our own game now. Can't rely on sending players abroad any more. And that's a good thing, if we take advantage properly. But Brexit isn't a surprise and we've done very little since it was announced really. The new national underage league is a good start - though I think to an extent UEFA forced it on us - but was it here someone said Luton have more full-time academy staff than across the entire LoI?

(And again, the LoI can offer these guys full-time senior football at 18, and I think that's better than going abroad to an academy at the same age)

[Eirambler]

It's straight up not true though - our lads still have access to high level European clubs all across the continent at 16. If we wait for domestic investment we'll lose generations worth of players and become also rans. I've been waiting 40 years for progress in domestic football and it hasn't come, it's naive to suggest that it's going to happen now.

[JR89]

Did we have a good track record of qualification pre-Brexit when our players were heading across to English academies? Looking at wikipedia it looks like we very rarely qualify for the Euros but this group of home based players has done it so we must be doing something right. Also looks like we have a lot of 15 year olds in the side compared to Poland. Would they even be at top European academies at this stage?

Speaking solely as a rovers supporter, our academy has also done very well in tournaments against European and English clubs. We won the Hale End Cup at u14 (https://twitter.com/SRFCAcademy/status/1646211320302256206?t=yBTwUKipje5sHSjRs1eQgw&s=19) level without conceding a goal. So I'm not sure we don't have a few (far too few obviously) good options for kids at home at this stage. If I had a son playing at that level I'd be more in favour of him staying at home than heading off at 14/15 to Italy etc. We've probably lost more players than we've gained with that outsourced model. Definitely needs a lot more investment but we also need to keep these players at home and be paid a fee if and when they go or nothing will change.

See a tweet there from Stephen Finn that we've more 15 yr olds in our squad than all the other teams combined at four and one 14 yr old.

[CraftyToePoke]

1658864143863107584

We have eight 17 year olds, Poland has 15 in their squad! We’ve four lads aged 15 & one 14 year old the other seven are 16. Polish squad has six 16 year olds. Time will tell if having a younger squad will stand to our lads. Poland have been very impressive
In fact, there are more 15 year olds on our squad than all the other nations in the tournament combined! This has been a poor performance against a very good Poland team but being so young has obvious challenges in underage international football.

The above tweet, and you could see it, they were bigger, stronger, faster. I'm not holding it up as an excuse or the only reason we lost so heavily, but surely a factor & time will tell if today stands to them down the line or if it scars them at the level.

What today is not, is a reason to argue that our only good option is to push all our youth to mainland Europe.

[ifk101]

Personally I thought we looked physically weaker and didn't think our fitness was at the level required. Seemed we were out of breath early doors for whatever reason, sweating heavily, and taking our time with free kicks, corners. But it's one game, they came through two qualification groups to get to the finals. No need to go armageddon.

[Razors left peg]

If only we could send all our players to develop in Italy instead of at home.... an Italy who we qualified ahead of.

Of course we need to improve our structures at home, but anyone who doesnt see progress in that in the last 5 years doesnt want to see it. All through our underage groups we are far better than we have been in a long time and for the most part these players are being developed domestically. It is far from perfect and needs enormously more investment, but it is a start. It took Brexit happening for some people to sit up and take notice that we have to develop our own game so we have started on the back foot but the likes of Shamrock Rovers, Bohs, Pats and some others are doing great work given the lack of investment in place.

[CraftyToePoke]

If only we could send all our players to develop in Italy instead of at home.... an Italy who we qualified ahead of.

:D:D shhh there will you, that wont fit the baby out with the bathwater one size untested fix fits all narrative one little bit.

[Razors left peg]

Just qualifying for these tournaments is a mega achievement. We dont do it regularly because the qualification process is so difficult. Obviously we want to be able to go there an compete, and beating the likes of Italy along the way shows we can compete at this level. Today is a bad day, that can happen with young fellas, but using this as example of why we cant keep our players at home is just stupid

[ontheotherhand]

It should be odd that an Irish footballer supporter sees a home based u17 team qualifying for a tournament as indicative of a problem rather than something to be praised.

[tetsujin1979]

Hungary 1-0 up at half time against Wales: https://www.uefa.com/under17/match/2037821/
Wales' keeper is Kit Margetson, wonder if he's related to former Man City keeper Martyn Margetson?

[ontheotherhand]

Hungary 1-0 up at half time against Wales: https://www.uefa.com/under17/match/2037821/
Wales' keeper is Kit Margetson, wonder if he's related to former Man City keeper Martyn Margetson?

Direct descendant of Kit Marget I think. Half Norwegian.

[tetsujin1979]

Hungary won 3-0.
Game against Wales on Saturday is a shoot out to stay in the tournament

[pineapple stu]

I see that Poland team has put five goals past (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_national_under-17_football_team#Results_and_fixtures) Uzbekistan, England, Andorra (6), Belgium, Sweden and Slovakia inside the last eight months. I suspect they're not a bad team at all.

[Razors left peg]

I see that Poland team has put five goals past (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_national_under-17_football_team#Results_and_fixtures) Uzbekistan, England, Andorra (6), Belgium, Sweden and Slovakia inside the last eight months. I suspect they're not a bad team at all.

And thats the thing about under age football. Sometimes squads from usually unheralded countries like ourselves can make a short term impact at that age group with an unusually gifted age group. Just a weird thing that some took yesterday as a sign of doom.

[elatedscum]

Why do you not look at the age profile of our squad, which appears to be the youngest at the tournament?



Our squad is the youngest we’ve ever had at u17s, by a mile. That’s the problem. The fact we have a 2008 player playing is crazy. Evan Ferguson was a 14 year old phenom and he was kept out of the comparative underage side by the likes of Conor Carty. There should always be a better player available at age 17 than his 14 year old counterpart (in this case Ade Solanke). Normally we have 1* player who’s underage for the level - this year we have 7 players out of 20, and Niall McAndrew would have made it 8. So the question is, what happened to 2006. Why are there only 12 or 13 players considered to be of the level to play in the championships, when every other country has much much more? Maybe it’s the manager’s selection that’s at fault, maybe it’s something gone wrong in development.

*
2022: 1 Kone Doherty used in quals
2021: none
2020: 1 Ferguson used in quals
2019: 1 (McNulty)
2018: 2 (Corcoran, Parrott)
2017: 6 (Idah, Collins, Ledwidge, K Clarke, Wright, Thompson)
2016: didn’t qualify, not sure re quals
2015: 2 (McGuane who we lost, Scully)

[nigel-harps1954]

One up against Wales here. Bit of madness around penalty though. First penalty saved, linesman flags for retake (correctly). Second penalty is saved, linesman flags again, but rebound is scored and goal stands.

I know there's been controversy about these before, but should the goalkeeper not have been booked?

[tetsujin1979]

game is on RTE News Now and RTE Player
Live stream on uefa.tv for anyone outside Ireland
https://www.uefa.tv/match/live/240027/2037830

[tetsujin1979]

Penalty here
1659935975068270592

[SkStu]

2-0 nice strike Orazi

[nigel-harps1954]

Super finish from Orazi.

[tetsujin1979]

Horrific mistake from the Welsh centre half, completely missed a header, but take nothing away from the finish. Wales cannot deal with Orazi on the wing.
1659938704104800258

Melia causing problems in the Welsh defence as well, there's a goal there for him.

[Razors left peg]

They have been excellent in 1st half. Razi looks a star in the making

[Razors left peg]

The 3rd goal as good as any Irish team has scored ever, absolutely brilliant

[tetsujin1979]

Came after a long period of Welsh possession, although it didn't result in any serious chances for the Welsh

[nigel-harps1954]

Pity they didn't start with the build-up out from the back, but this is a phenomenal goal.

1659952398469672963

[tetsujin1979]

Just noticed Portugal won their second group game last night against Scotland 2-1, after losing their first game 4-0 against Germany
Portugal won six out of six in qualifying, scoring 16 and conceding only once, a penalty against Kazakhstan. Offers a little perspective on the loss in the opening game against Poland

[Eirambler]

Hungary standing up to Poland better than we did, so it looks like a draw won't be enough in the last game to progress, we'll need to beat them.

[tetsujin1979]

Poland through after winning 5-3
Hungary had their keeper sent off at the end, and is obviously suspended for the game against Ireland on Tuesday
https://www.uefa.com/under17/match/2037829--hungary-vs-poland/
<EDIT>
Sorry, it was their goalkeeper coach that was shown the red card

[Eirambler]

1660063986933481473

The graph on this tweet tells its own story. Poland with an average of more than 10 dedicated youth coaches per top flight club. Ireland with less than one. And Poland aren't even the outlier here, we are. We need to put an end to this "Brexit is the best thing to happen" nonsense - it's the exact opposite.