Republic of Ireland V Serbia - Tuesday, 7th September 2021 - 2022 World Cup Qualifier

[Kingdom]

OTB - I've not much grá for them at the best of times, last night said that the discussion on Kenny has become Trumpian, or Brexit-like, where the middle ground is portrayed as being polarising.
And in continuing that fashion....


Kenny.... He had a play-off he shouldn't have had, a friendly against England, and a Nations League campaign. This team should have been ready from the game in Serbia - instead we're facing down the barrel of our worst qualifying campaign in half a century (possibly the first without a victory since then)

How many permanent Irish managers have had their first friendly match after 11 games?
If you object to that question (i.e the Nations league is not competitive), then how many permanent Irish managers have been appointed where their first match is a competitive play-off for a place in a finals we're hosting?
How many managers have had to face our own biggest and hated rivals (in our eyes) in their own ground when the respective standing of both sides has never been greater, and when we were not obliged to do so?

[Kingdom]

That's the problem though, people are always comparing 2021 Jeff Hendrick to 2016-2018 Jeff Hendrick. We should compare 2021 Jeff Hendrick to the other options available in the 2021 squad. If he still makes the team based on that criteria, then he makes the team.

Eh?
You've skipped 2019-2020, the pre SK period, where JH was quite underwhelming, along with others. By your logic, Josh Cullen would not have been getting a look in and becoming a lock for the side.

[brine3]

Hmm, I don't follow what you are saying.

I'm just pointing out that one of the things Jeff Hendrick has going against him is how good he used to be. He set the bar high for himself. Others that never achieved such heights never have to worry about being held up to the same standard.

[passinginterest]

The squad in a months time will be interesting. Players like Kilkenny in the 21s will have had another month potentially starting in the championship, the lads who have take up loan deals will hopefully be playing regularly (Coventry, Hourihane, Molumby), Hendrick will have a chance to get back in the Newcastle team, Robbie Brady and Jack Byrne might have clubs, Knight might be fit again and that's just the midfield.

Hopefully there's a bit more luck with fitness and covid issues and there's some serious choices to be made around selecting players that are playing and in form over other who have been in squads but are not getting games. I think Coventry is the one with the biggest chance to jump up into the team. He had an impressive pre-season, he's another good holding midfielder and he's capable of getting a goal or two.

It would be great to see Idah getting more game time (and hopefully a goal or two), and Omobamidele getting into that Norwich starting lineup.

Stevens will hopefully be fit again and fresh adding to the options on the left that are thin on the ground.

Robinson will hopefully be fit and continue his scoring form. Connolly might even sort himself out and be playing for Brighton. Parrot will have more games and goals under his belt all going well too.

I do think a win is still badly needed for the management and the players. Hopefully that comes in Azerbaijan (I think playing them away will actually suit us a bit better anyway).

[Kingdom]

The other point about Jeff is that he's often unfairly criticised as someone who 'goes missing' or is a 'waste of a shirt'. Well, at the very least he will work hard for the team and put in a shift. Would a Dyche team ever conceivably accept anything less?

Again it's interpretation. If I've made that accusation about him (I think it's unlikely I'd use those words, but not impossible) then it's the context of him not showing up in a technical sense. I'd hope it's been noted here, that I've constantly said that in a game where we are likely to be the weaker team, or less dominant team, and want to press aggressively, Jeff is the best player for that right of a midfield 3 position. His workrate and stamina levels are off the charts.


I think the big frustration with Hendrick is the suspicion that he has more ability and more to offer than he sometimes shows. And we have seen glimpses of great quality from him.

This is it, every word of that is on the money.

[Stuttgart88]

Just on Hendrick, it looked to me like he'd had it drilled into him that he's the senior player out there now, the one who needed to take responsibility. And he did that.

[paul_oshea]

OTB - I've not much grá for them at the best of times, last night said that the discussion on Kenny has become Trumpian, or Brexit-like, where the middle ground is portrayed as being polarising.
And in continuing that fashion....



How many permanent Irish managers have had their first friendly match after 11 games?
If you object to that question (i.e the Nations league is not competitive), then how many permanent Irish managers have been appointed where their first match is a competitive play-off for a place in a finals we're hosting?
How many managers have had to face our own biggest and hated rivals (in our eyes) in their own ground when the respective standing of both sides has never been greater, and when we were not obliged to do so?

When was the England game organised ? Was it during Kenny's reign? I've always thought it was but the way you're talking sounds like it was forced upon him gun to head like.

[texidub]

31 goals in the entire squad.
1 tournament qualification in a generation.
Expectations have met reality.

True enough. And as mentioned previously, a 1-1 home draw with Serbia in a WCQ is a typical result for Ireland no matter the manager or the squad, so for all the change we're seeing, in some ways things remain the same. It's a conundrum, but great entertainment.

[liamoo11]

Good to see Zefi going to the continent instead of the English pyramid.

Hopeffully Time will tell. Didn't do alan mahon a huge amount of favours or conor mccormack or o connor who both went to trieste. England are producing wonderful technical players Foden, sancho , Elliott , shoreteire , musiala etc through their academies .

[boovidge]

Hopeffully Time will tell. Didn't do alan mahon a huge amount of favours or conor mccormack or o connor who both went to trieste. England are producing wonderful technical players Foden, sancho , Elliott , shoreteire , musiala etc through their academies .

There's a snobbery against English football here. Probably because it's what your average "barstooler" watches.

[SkStu]

There's a snobbery against English football here. Probably because it's what your average "barstooler" watches.

Not true at all. Most LOI fans are not "LOI only". Almost all Bohs fans (and fans of other LOI clubs) that i know support an English team too. As a second team mostly, obviously. There may be a snobbery from time to time towards "barstoolers" but not towards English football.

[paul_oshea]

He said here ? Not Loi :confused:

[SkStu]

The recent stuff has been standard desperation stuff that you'd see under any other Irish manager. I mean last night against Serbia we were going down the channels and getting McClean to whip balls into the box. This is no different to MON or McCarthy.

I disagree with this take. There is a marked difference between the MON/MickMack trademarks of long balls pumped into the box and into the wide channels from our CBs and FBs which often resulted in a cross or a set piece in the attacking third (but more often resulted in the ball being turned over) versus what i think, objectively, we are seeing under Kenny which is recycled ball with a high degree of possession that works the ball into wide positions resulting in crosses or set pieces in the attacking third.

[TonyD]

Not true at all. Most LOI fans are not "LOI only". Almost all Bohs fans (and fans of other LOI clubs) that i know support an English team too. As a second team mostly, obviously. There may be a snobbery from time to time towards "barstoolers" but not towards English football.

The snobbery I find is usually directed at the league of Ireland by the EPL supporting faction. I don’t support an English team I’m quite happy to say. Used to “support” Man City when I was a kid (70’s) until I came to realise gradually that they have absolutely nothing to do with me. Best things I ever did was start to go to Richmond Park regularly. I’m probably biased towards Kenny because of his background (conversely I’m sure that many anti Kenny people are also of that view because of his background) and I don’t mind admitting it. I think there are extenuating circumstances to his poor record so far, and I also think there are signs that things can come right for him.

Having said all that though, if he fails to beat Luxembourg and Azerbaijan again I would say he’s a goner.

[SkStu]

The snobbery I find is usually directed at the league of Ireland by the EPL supporting faction. I don’t support an English team I’m quite happy to say. Used to “support” Man City when I was a kid (70’s) until I came to realise gradually that they have absolutely nothing to do with me. Best things I ever did was start to go to Richmond Park regularly. I’m probably biased towards Kenny because of his background (conversely I’m sure that many anti Kenny people are also of that view because of his background) and I don’t mind admitting it. I think there are extenuating circumstances to his poor record so far, and I also think there are signs that things can come right for him.

Having said all that though, if he fails to beat Luxembourg and Azerbaijan again I would say he’s a goner.

Yep, all fair. I think my saying "almost all" above could be overstated and that there are a number of fans who only support an Irish team. I don't know many of those who would be vehemently anti-English football though.

Re: Kenny. Yep, the results have to come before the end of the campaign. I said yesterday that 6 would be the bare minimum to see him kept on and preferably 8. One down...

[boovidge]

There's a snobbery against English football here. Probably because it's what your average "barstooler" watches.

Yeah just to clarify I wasn't talking about LOI fans in general or saying people on here are "anti-English". There's just the occasional post saying something like "I hope x goes to the Eredivisie instead of the Premier League. They play real technical football over there".

[Stuttgart88]

Hopeffully Time will tell. Didn't do alan mahon a huge amount of favours or conor mccormack or o connor who both went to trieste. England are producing wonderful technical players Foden, sancho , Elliott , shoreteire , musiala etc through their academies .For me the key thing is what kind of good quality game time they'll get at the right time rather than the style of football these days, though I think lower down the English structures the style reservations are more valid. Off the top of my head not too many Irish have come out of the top tier academies since the clubs started investing so heavily in them so although they may get a good technical grounding, their development options may be more limited. I guess that'll apply to Zefi at Inter too though.

[Trequartista20]

I disagree with this take. There is a marked difference between the MON/MickMack trademarks of long balls pumped into the box and into the wide channels from our CBs and FBs which often resulted in a cross or a set piece in the attacking third (but more often resulted in the ball being turned over) versus what i think, objectively, we are seeing under Kenny which is recycled ball with a high degree of possession that works the ball into wide positions resulting in crosses or set pieces in the attacking third.

Oh, come off it; the moral victory (defeat) against Portugal, where we scored a goal from a set-piece, and set about desperately attempting to cling on for the remainder of a match where Portugal enjoyed no less than 73% of possession, was as typical an Irish performance as you can possibly get! If you lack the objectivity to be able to recognise this, well, then I don't know what to say.

Serbia was the same; we were 'battered', as Kerr rightly described it, for the entire match - utterly outplayed - and were wholly dependent on a near wonder-display from our teenage goalkeeper and some extraordinarily profligate finishing from the Serbs for the score not to reflect this, as 18 shots rained down on our goal. If Serbia had been 4 or 5 goals to the good by the time we scored from a ludicrously fortuitous and quite undeserved own goal - again from a set-piece (not Irish at all!) We would have had absolutely no cause for complaint.

There is no doubt whatever that these were prototypical Irish performances of the sort we've seen time and time again down the years under various Irish managers.

And if we really are serious about instigating real and lasting change this involves us being fully honest about where we are - let's not try to kid outselves.

[pineapple stu]

I think there is a difference in fairness in that under Mick/MON, we were far too quick to give the ball away and launch an aimless hoof. We seem to be able to retain possession slightly better, and have more of an idea what to do when on the ball. We're not very good at actually making that idea happen, mind, and I agree Portugal/Serbia were fairly typical Irish moral victories.

[TonyD]

I think there is a difference in fairness in that under Mick/MON, we were far too quick to give the ball away and launch an aimless hoof. We seem to be able to retain possession slightly better, and have more of an idea what to do when on the ball. We're not very good at actually making that idea happen, mind, and I agree Portugal/Serbia were fairly typical Irish moral victories.

Would agree with this. We're definitely attempting to pass the ball more, just witness how many times Bazunu tried to pick out a man with a short pass rather than launching it up towards a target man. As for attempting to cling on to the lead against Portugal, I would say it was more a case of them forcing us back, what with them having better footballers. We actually played some nice stuff getting forward in Portugal. Same with Serbia. Teams like these are ahead of us, so they will have more possession. That's being fully honest about where we are. Thing is, if we don't try to adjust our playing style now we will continue to fall further behind. None of this is to excuse the games against Luxembourg and Azerbaijan btw, which were poor.

[irishfan86]

While some will point to low possession stats in these matches and say nothing has changed, that’s not the whole story.

Under Kenny’s style, by playing short passes near our goal, we draw the opposing team’s high press.

When we execute the next move properly and get the ball up field, it means we face fewer defensive players than we normally would.

The challenge is that the players we have right now may not be good enough to play this system in its purest form. That may come with time as some of these players mature and grow but Kenny may not be around for that depending on how things go.

[osarusan]

Under Kenny’s style, by playing short passes near our goal, we draw the opposing team’s high press.

When we execute the next move properly and get the ball up field, it means we face fewer defensive players than we normally would.

The challenge is that the players we have right now may not be good enough to play this system in its purest form. That may come with time as some of these players mature and grow but Kenny may not be around for that depending on how things go.
This is definitely the plan, and there's logic to it. Rather than a 50-50 from a kick-out, you keep possession of the ball and ideally get into midfield with the opposition attack behind rather than in front of you.

So far though, off the top of my head, it cost us a penalty in Portugal and an early chance at home to Serbia, and we seem just as likely to end up being closed down and either hoofing it away or worse, losing possession in our own final third, as we are to execute it properly.

[paul_oshea]

This is definitely the plan, and there's logic to it. Rather than a 50-50 from a kick-out, you keep possession of the ball and ideally get into midfield with the opposition attack behind rather than in front of you.

So far though, off the top of my head, it cost us a penalty in Portugal and an early chance at home to Serbia, and we seem just as likely to end up being closed down and either hoofing it away or worse, losing possession in our own final third, as we are to execute it properly.

We do but bazunu was drawing in and then playing powerful direct passes taking out the 1/2/3 front opposition players. I'm wondering now if that's a tactic that they've started to work on as it was never there before - I'm inclined to think it's bazunu acting on instinct and having the required ability to execute that pass. And I'm ok with that if its being used that way. But as you say it doesn't come with a free pass there are dangers especially as most players still can't easily turn their way out of losing possession

[TonyD]

You're right about the risk involved, its definitely not percentage football. If we dont try it though, we'll never improve.

[pineapple stu]

This is definitely the plan, and there's logic to it. Rather than a 50-50 from a kick-out, you keep possession of the ball and ideally get into midfield with the opposition attack behind rather than in front of you.

So far though, off the top of my head, it cost us a penalty in Portugal and an early chance at home to Serbia, and we seem just as likely to end up being closed down and either hoofing it away or worse, losing possession in our own final third, as we are to execute it properly.
Yeah, we do seem to get caught in possession 30 yards out far more often than we should do. Portugal did a couple of times early on, as did a couple of the weaker sides we played early in the year.

[TonyD]

Yeah, we do seem to get caught in possession 30 yards out far more often than we should do. Portugal did a couple of times early on, as did a couple of the weaker sides we played early in the year.

This is where the need for good midfielders who are comfortable on the ball comes in. Its the one area that could make a huge difference to the team. There was one incident the other night that I liked where Molumby got the ball facing his own goal and turned with the ball to start off an attack (according to the commentators Omobamidele gave him the call to turn) too often in the past that ball just goes straight back to the defender. In the long term I honestly think this will bear fruit. I'd like to see SK be around to reap the benefits, but its the way to go regardless. We can do that mixed with the up and at em "put under presshah" game.

[passinginterest]

We do but bazunu was drawing in and then playing powerful direct passes taking out the 1/2/3 front opposition players. I'm wondering now if that's a tactic that they've started to work on as it was never there before - I'm inclined to think it's bazunu acting on instinct and having the required ability to execute that pass. And I'm ok with that if its being used that way. But as you say it doesn't come with a free pass there are dangers especially as most players still can't easily turn their way out of losing possession

I watched the Rovers under 17 team a lot when Bazunu was in for them and that's exactly how they played out. They had two excellent wingbacks and if the short wasn't on or wasn't working he'd ping it to them pushing into the midfield. It's a great option, especially if you can draw 3 or 4 opponents into the press first and then just take them out of the game. His coach from that Rovers team is also on the Ireland staff now too, so that might be connected.

[Trequartista20]

While some will point to low possession stats in these matches and say nothing has changed, that’s not the whole story.

Under Kenny’s style, by playing short passes near our goal, we draw the opposing team’s high press.

When we execute the next move properly and get the ball up field, it means we face fewer defensive players than we normally would.

The challenge is that the players we have right now may not be good enough to play this system in its purest form. That may come with time as some of these players mature and grow but Kenny may not be around for that depending on how things go.

The problem with that line of reasoning is that we move the ball far too slowly for that approach to really be successful.

Rather than fast, sharp, snappy possession football of the sort that would quickly advance us up the pitch, what we see is the ball being knocked around at the back, in slow, ponderous and uncertain fashion, and, when the ball is eventually played into midfield, all of our players are, inevitably, tightly marked, so, under pressure, the ball has to be played back, either to a defender or the goalkeeper, again, and it's either rinse and repeat or the goalkeeper, under pressure, having to knock it long anyway.

This kind of slow, predictable football is incredibly easy to play against, and just invites pressure and ends up with the concession of goalscoring opportunities.

Serbia, when their goalkeeper had possession, for example, had their outer centre-halves splitting very wide into fullback positions, and sometimes making forward runs, their wingbacks were pushed very far forwards, almost inline with their two (!) strikers - as we used to see with Doherty
to great effect at Wolves - and their deepest lying midfielder, a real deep-lying playmaker of the sort we seem to lack, (Kilkenny?) was comfortable coming deep and collecting the ball or receiving the ball in a slightly more advanced midfield position. And they also played with a number 10 who played between the lines but who also was prepared to receive the ball in deeper positions.

That's a much more difficult set-up to play against.

Kenny is certainly hampered by our severe lack of attacking options. With this in mind, I do think we need to be playing two up top, even if one player (Parrott?) is slightly more withdrawn. But I do think Idah performed manfully over the three matches - and I do recognise he's not at all the finished article yet.

Straw-clutching though it may be, Scully (lively and a smart finisher with 7 goals this season) and Szmodics, who can play across the forward line, and, crucially in the 10 role, may be useful options to come in, and McGrath may prove a useful option for the 10 role that we really need to introduce and fill in order to better link midfield and attack. Although Dunphy's recent promotion of McGrath as the latest cause celebre does leave me rather cold.

[Stuttgart88]

There was one moment where Molumby turned and pivoted with the ball stuck to his feet and suddenly the whole pitch opened up, perfectly illustrating how playing it short from the back can have real benefits. A few moments later he tried the same thing further up the pitch but his technique let him down really badly (itself very worrying) and the whole pitch opened up for Serbia!

Some games I watched my son playing for his school in Spain were very telling. Literally every team they played had a Cullen-like deep lying midfielder who was always the go to guy from the back. Receive, pivot, distribute...every single time. Each team had a player good enough to receive the ball under any kind of pressure. In my opinion Darron Gibson was great at receiving the ball in tight situations. It's why I still had a thing for picking Gibson even when his career was in decline. Keane was a master at it.

Having such a player makes playing cohesive football so much easier. Having an advanced playmaker, much like what Dunphy thinks he sees in McGrath (let's hope he's right) would be an amazing thing to have too. Growing up there was always one guy you could trust to give the ball to. He'd usually always be looking for it too. It's why I like Cullen so much even if he's no world beater. He's a midfielder just doing "midfieldery things", as CTP puts it.

That's why it has surprised me that Kenny took so long to see that the likes of Cullen were important to how he wants us to play. I think he believed Hourihane could do it but he didn't do it very well. It was telling that when he went back out on loan last season he had a purple patch, playing much further forward.

[Stuttgart88]

@TQ20, I actually think Serbia were an utter delight to watch from the very first minute. Beautifully balanced team. Technically strong but nothing flash. Lots of wall passes that kept the ball moving. I loved how they set up as a unit in our half, sensing they were on top and smothering us with even their CBs well into our half. Really good in-game collective intelligence. I think they're one of the more impressive sides to have visited Dublin in recent years.

[paul_oshea]

There was one moment where Molumby turned and pivoted with the ball stuck to his feet and suddenly the whole pitch opened up, perfectly illustrating how playing it short from the back can have real benefits. A few moments later he tried the same thing further up the pitch but his technique let him down really badly (itself very worrying) and the whole pitch opened up for Serbia!.

George and Stephen got super excited over that and put it down to Andrew O. He could be heard shouting "turn into space, turn into space". If only it were that simple, or as simple as clear communication....

[SkStu]

Yeah just to clarify I wasn't talking about LOI fans in general or saying people on here are "anti-English". There's just the occasional post saying something like "I hope x goes to the Eredivisie instead of the Premier League. They play real technical football over there".

fair enough, the clarification makes sense - - when people use the word barstooler, it tends to be as a term thrown around negatively by LOI fans.

[paul_oshea]

Serbia was the same; we were 'battered', as Kerr rightly described it, for the entire match - utterly outplayed - and were wholly dependent on a near wonder-display from our teenage goalkeeper and some extraordinarily profligate finishing from the Serbs for the score not to reflect this, as 18 shots rained down on our goal. If Serbia had been 4 or 5 goals to the good by the time we scored from a ludicrously fortuitous and quite undeserved own goal - again from a set-piece (not Irish at all!) We would have had absolutely no cause for complaint.

I think there is a difference in fairness in that under Mick/MON, we were far too quick to give the ball away and launch an aimless hoof. We seem to be able to retain possession slightly better, and have more of an idea what to do when on the ball. We're not very good at actually making that idea happen, mind, and I agree Portugal/Serbia were fairly typical Irish moral victories.

The challenge is that the players we have right now may not be good enough to play this system in its purest form. That may come with time as some of these players mature and grow but Kenny may not be around for that depending on how things go.

So far though, off the top of my head, it cost us a penalty in Portugal and an early chance at home to Serbia, and we seem just as likely to end up being closed down and either hoofing it away or worse, losing possession in our own final third, as we are to execute it properly.

These 4 paragraphs have summed up my thinking, in no particular order. Whilst we clearly are holding, looking to retain the ball better when we receive it or win it back we are still very much one dimensional in what we do with it. Kenny has clearly figured out that his original style and system wasn't working, we've adapted to a hybrid system that is suited much better to our players, or to the players currently available. I do believe 2 key players would make a massive difference to that system, retaining the hybrid system we have adapted to. A midfielder like the one Stutts describes would be great, and cullens decent, but against Serbia he was being bullied out of it and overrun. I think we are looking for a yaya toure type player who has the defensive side to his game but also the strength and athleticism to hold his own in more physical contests that teams like Serbia bring. It was mentioned previously but Andrew O possibly playing in that defensive midfield role I really think is worth a try, we have more than enough cover in the 2/3 at the back that it would be an exercise worth trying out against the likes of Azerbaijan away and Portugal at home given we have nothing to play for. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. The other key player we need and McGrath showed bits of it, but moreso Robinson when he came on was a player who can lye deeper and take it off the wingers/wing backs in a more central position and instead of turning back or away from goal goes towards goal and brings in the same wingers on the overlap. If somehow those 2 players were unearthed, a bit like Andrew O was, the strides and playability of the system we've witnessed over this window would be immense. Of course all this is easier said than done. So whilst we don't have the players Kenny needs to find a more accommodating system to get the best out of what we have up top, and I really dont think Idah up there on his own is ever going to get us goals, so he needs to play 2 up front, we looked much better when robinson came on and it was telling, even Idah I felt looked more comfortable to go forward at that point.

I'm also wondering as teams figure out the ball over the top will they adapt to that and therefore give our backline more space and begin to sit deep, especially the perceived weaker teams, azeris were happy to sit the last day so whilst it works against superior opposition who will press us high and commit players to put us under pressure, it doesnt and wont work against weaker opposition. And we've seen that we don't have any other style when that occurs. WHat would we have lost by including jack byrne in the squad?

I've watched a couple of Armenia games of this qualifying group, and there were so many things resembling our own performances of late. Dominating possession and getting to the final third but just looking completely clueless with what to do with it, they did however have some good corners setup to try and create something, and a couple of intricate moves in the box involving Barseghyan and Mikhitaryan that effectively came to nothing, but it was mainly ball lobbed into the box with no real intention from the attacking player or the player who made the cross. That's where the similarities end however. Perhaps we have become that level now, but if you look at Armenia's attacking players they're playing in armenia and kazakhstan etc. However they are still 11 points and in second in their group.

[Kingdom]

I’ll call Crafty & Skstu as witnesses here. I have for some time now, looked at our positioning and movement in open play and dead ball situations. It is up there as our biggest weakness. Speed of thought and speed of movement is a part of it as well - whether it’s the main contributing factor or a by product I’m not sure. We make some baffling decisions when we have the ball - and have done for a long time. Some players will never be able to master this I think.

A prime example (of speed of thought) was the last min in the Serbia game/ free kick won in the centre circle area. Everyone lumps forward, Serbs all go back. Bazunu came out to shape up for the kick , can’t recall the outfield player standing beside him. Nobody within 20 yds. All it needed was a small touch to send us on the way again and set up a better angle for a cross. We failed to do it, and I think we ended up passing the ball further back to Bazunu to kick longer, than where the kick was from.

[SkStu]

Oh, come off it; the moral victory (defeat) against Portugal, where we scored a goal from a set-piece, and set about desperately attempting to cling on for the remainder of a match where Portugal enjoyed no less than 73% of possession, was as typical an Irish performance as you can possibly get! If you lack the objectivity to be able to recognise this, well, then I don't know what to say.

Serbia was the same; we were 'battered', as Kerr rightly described it, for the entire match - utterly outplayed - and were wholly dependent on a near wonder-display from our teenage goalkeeper and some extraordinarily profligate finishing from the Serbs for the score not to reflect this, as 18 shots rained down on our goal. If Serbia had been 4 or 5 goals to the good by the time we scored from a ludicrously fortuitous and quite undeserved own goal - again from a set-piece (not Irish at all!) We would have had absolutely no cause for complaint.

There is no doubt whatever that these were prototypical Irish performances of the sort we've seen time and time again down the years under various Irish managers.

And if we really are serious about instigating real and lasting change this involves us being fully honest about where we are - let's not try to kid outselves.

I suppose we must be talking about two different things then.

I have seen, over the course of his tenure, a marked change in approach that has seen us do a whole lot less of dumping the ball long into the box (aimless hoofing) or into the channels. I have seen a whole lot more of us working the ball out from the back with intent, switching play and ultimately working our way into better attacking opportunities. Agree with some of the subsequent comments that we have turned the ball over more as a result and sometimes in more dangerous situations than an aimless hoof might result in.

If the remark was specific to the nature of the performance and outcome against Portugal and Serbia then, yes, we had very little possession, the goals were from set pieces and the outcomes were moral victories vs. actual victories. Not a lot of change there, I agree, against the "big boys". However, when we did have that limited amount of possession, there was far more of it that saw us use the ball positively to create the chances that we created and was based more on ball retention than aimless long balls from the back, though. Further, how much possession and playing through the lines against Portugal and Serbia is to be expected? Portugal are ranked 8th in the world. Serbia are, as i set out in an earlier post, an excellent team that have won more than one underage tournament in recent times.

[Trequartista20]

I'm looking for progression with Kenny, not miracles, and it's unfair to compare us, in any way, directly, with Portugal who can boast of some extremely talented individuals, of the sort we simply cannot call upon. And this goes, to an extent, with Serbia. But I do think there are lessons to be learnt from the way Serbia went about things, and I've rarely been so impressed by an away side at Lansdowne.

We were tactically outplayed by the Serbs as well as technically. And I hope Kenny learnt from this.

Kenny has shown us, if nothing else, that we can, actually, mix it up and play a bit. But I'm yet to see us put in even a vaguely cohesive and truly impressive performance, as of yet, under his reign.

But let's see where we are after this campaign and make a true assessment then.

[Trequartista20]

I'll say as well that this is such an intelligent and considered forum, especially compared with so many others; the quality of contribution here really is impressive, and that shouldn't be taken for granted nor overlooked.

[mark12345]

I’ll call Crafty & Skstu as witnesses here. I have for some time now, looked at our positioning and movement in open play and dead ball situations. It is up there as our biggest weakness. Speed of thought and speed of movement is a part of it as well - whether it’s the main contributing factor or a by product I’m not sure. We make some baffling decisions when we have the ball - and have done for a long time. Some players will never be able to master this I think.

A prime example (of speed of thought) was the last min in the Serbia game/ free kick won in the centre circle area. Everyone lumps forward, Serbs all go back. Bazunu came out to shape up for the kick , can’t recall the outfield player standing beside him. Nobody within 20 yds. All it needed was a small touch to send us on the way again and set up a better angle for a cross. We failed to do it, and I think we ended up passing the ball further back to Bazunu to kick longer, than where the kick was from.

Speed of thought and movement are absolutely our biggest weaknesses. Just looked at a replay of Serbia game. They were very very quick and purposeful when in possession. We on the other hand, were unsure and ponderous with the ball by comparison. I recall an old Real Madrid tactic whereby the first team would play against the club's youth teams in pre season in order to achieve speed of thought/ movement. Maybe SK needs to do something similar

[SkStu]

I agree here Mark. There were quite a few times I counted in the last 3 games when a fairly low risk or easily executed lateral pass between opposition players/lines was on (from one of the defenders, wing backs or mids) that would have opened things up quite nicely for the recipient to carry forward but, instead, the ball was more often recycled back to the deeper defender or GK. For me it was about a combination of bravery and speed of thought. The bravery (trust yourselves, take a little more risk) can be coached but the latter might take a little more consistency in personnel than SK has had the luxury of to date. I think it will definitely come.

[ifk101]

My sense is there are improvements in this respect. Hendrick had a good first half against Serbia because (a) the CBs were more willing to play the ball forward centrally (has been a tendency to go back and forth across the back line) and (b) he was showing for the ball and (c) players were showing for Hendrick when he got the ball. Also seeing more combinations coming out from the back. Would need to re-watch the game, but remember Hendrick and Cullen meeting wingbacks to play 1 2 combinations and advance from that. Bazunu by-passing the high press line with a sweep pass to the wing backs to nod down to an advancing player was something we did quite well.

[Kingdom]

I'll say as well that this is such an intelligent and considered forum, especially compared with so many others; the quality of contribution here really is impressive, and that shouldn't be taken for granted nor overlooked.

Thanks man, appreciate the compliment, I know it was directed at me.
Sentiment reciprocated.

[passinginterest]

I think it's a two step process in a lot of ways. You can see the defensive unit starting to get more comfortable with what's expected and that's gradually translating into the middle. The next stage is to hopefully start linking the middle to the front in the same way, that means the quick passes to break the press are followed by quick and accurate passes to exploit the new found space. The question probably remains, do we have that attacking fulcrum who can take it from Cullen or the wide players and link to the forwards? Could it be McGrath or Byrne or is there someone else emerging? Can Hendrick find some form and become that player, or even Brady? Of course the whole thing comes undone if the forwards can't put the ball in the net anyway!

[elatedscum]

I suppose we must be talking about two different things then.

I have seen, over the course of his tenure, a marked change in approach that has seen us do a whole lot less of dumping the ball long into the box (aimless hoofing) or into the channels. I have seen a whole lot more of us working the ball out from the back with intent, switching play and ultimately working our way into better attacking opportunities. Agree with some of the subsequent comments that we have turned the ball over more as a result and sometimes in more dangerous situations than an aimless hoof might result in.

If the remark was specific to the nature of the performance and outcome against Portugal and Serbia then, yes, we had very little possession, the goals were from set pieces and the outcomes were moral victories vs. actual victories. Not a lot of change there, I agree, against the "big boys". However, when we did have that limited amount of possession, there was far more of it that saw us use the ball positively to create the chances that we created and was based more on ball retention than aimless long balls from the back, though. Further, how much possession and playing through the lines against Portugal and Serbia is to be expected? Portugal are ranked 8th in the world. Serbia are, as i set out in an earlier post, an excellent team that have won more than one underage tournament in recent times.

People talk about “beating the press” these days. I had a pretty decent seat in Lansdowne for both games, more or less at the halfway line. Not sure how visible it was on tv, but against Serbia, when we were playing out from the back, by and large, we were able to hold the ball and keep possession, but we only progressed up the pitch once Serbia dropped into their shell, which they did eventually. It dramatically reduced the effectiveness of what we were trying to do, there was only a handful of occasions when someone like Matt Doherty was able to receive the ball make something happen beyond the simple. Now maybe that’s about time needed to work with players or maybe that’s about the quality of the midfielders we have. But we’re still a significant step off where Stephen would like us to be.

Saying that, it’s much better than it was earlier in the reign, I remember a few nations league games where we’d play it short and have about 5-10 under pressure passes near our box before laying to the keeper who would pump it long. 8 or 9 of our players were in our third, so when it went long we were totally outnumbered and almost certainly lost the first or second ball (if it stayed in play). It was really counter productive and pointless. Like if you’re gonna pump it long, you might as well organise and get bodies up the pitch.

Maybe it’s partly down to Bazunu and Kelleher having better feet. Maybe it’s because the wingbacks feel more comfortable pushing into positions where they can get over the first line of lads pressing than they do at fullback. Maybe it’s because the centre halves feel more confident being pressed with three rather than a two but the likes of Duffy in particular and Egan are much improved in this respect. You could argue that the things in the shape with 5 defenders that make it easier to play out, also make it harder to really do damage because generally, you’re sacrificing an attacking player for a defender. Maybe we are just adapting and getting used to it. The midfielders seem to be robbed in bad areas less frequently when playing out.

FWIW, Matt Doherty was excellent against Serbia, his ability to control a really difficult ball from Bazunu and others and keep it in play and in possession was exceptional and he won balls in the air he had no right to win and found players with the headers.


I'm looking for progression with Kenny, not miracles, and it's unfair to compare us, in any way, directly, with Portugal who can boast of some extremely talented individuals, of the sort we simply cannot call upon. And this goes, to an extent, with Serbia. But I do think there are lessons to be learnt from the way Serbia went about things, and I've rarely been so impressed by an away side at Lansdowne.

We were tactically outplayed by the Serbs as well as technically. And I hope Kenny learnt from this.

Kenny has shown us, if nothing else, that we can, actually, mix it up and play a bit. But I'm yet to see us put in even a vaguely cohesive and truly impressive performance, as of yet, under his reign.

But let's see where we are after this campaign and make a true assessment then.

That Serbia side were really excellent. They were probably the best side I’ve seen in Lansdowne since Trap was beaten 6-1 by the Germans. Their decision making in the final third was excellent and far better than Portugal last week, who too often snatched at chances or shot from areas they couldn’t score. Serbia were patient and seemed to always play the right pass. McClean deserves credit for that lung busting run back in the 6/7v3, where he single handedly marked 3/4 players on their right, so the pass went down the other side instead. That and his recovery for Bazunu’s error. I thought we defended well and all of the back 5 and keeper deserved credit for their performances but we came up against a very good team.

Saying that, once we scored, we looked the more likely to score a second...

[tetsujin1979]

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