Bosun Lawal M Stoke b.2003

[MylesNotMiley]

I know people have been excited about Lawal and I see why but I struggle to get excited by any player that chooses to remain at Celtic as I fail to believe they can do so and be serious about their development as a player.


If you're good enough you'll get games at Celtic.
Dembele, Ajer, Christie, Frimpong, Wanyama, Tierney - all joined Celtic at a young age, improved their game and got big moves.
Matt O'Riley will join that list soon.

The perception that Celtic ruined careers of young Irish talent in recent times is nonsense. They simply weren't good enough.
Lee O'Connor, Connell, Afolabi, Okoflex look at their careers now - that's not Celtic's fault.

If Lawal is good enough, it shouldn't be hard for him to break into the Celtic midfield especially with O'Riley on the verge of leaving.

[CSAD]

If you're good enough you'll get games at Celtic.
Dembele, Ajer, Christie, Frimpong, Wanyama, Tierney - all joined Celtic at a young age, improved their game and got big moves.
Matt O'Riley will join that list soon.

The perception that Celtic ruined careers of young Irish talent in recent times is nonsense. They simply weren't good enough.
Lee O'Connor, Connell, Afolabi, Okoflex look at their careers now - that's not Celtic's fault.

If Lawal is good enough, it shouldn't be hard for him to break into the Celtic midfield especially with O'Riley on the verge of leaving.

Yeah I wonder why they have had only 1 academy graduate in their starting 11 (McGregor) and he's been at the club for over 10 years...yeah that's not Celtic's fault at all.

I also wonder why all of Scotland's U21 talent avoids Celtic like the plague...yeah nothing wrong with Celtic at all, it's all their fault.

...Let's ignore all the red flags as like you said, Celtic are completely innocent in everything they do.


What's noticeable from that list, only 1 came from the Celtic academy...which is f-ing tragic. Celtic can be a good place to go if you were developed at another club, which is why for Scales & Idah it can be useful.

The issue I have is with the likes of O'Connor, Connell, Afolabi etc is they left Celtic much worse players than when they joined...if Celtic is such a good club for young players how can this happen? I think these players were doomed by the simple fact they signed for Celtic as it showed they had A. No sense and B. were badly advised which today is half the battle and it showed they were doomed to fail before ability came into the equation due to the advise they got from their representatives as if they were well advised they would have stayed a million miles away from Celtic.

Lol Celtic thought he was a centre back...you really think they are going to use Lawal properly? Not a chance, they'll probably think he's a goalkeeper next...

The reality is if Lawal is serious about his future as a player he'll get out of Celtic as soon as a concrete offer from any of the rumoured teams come in.

[Eirambler]

If you're good enough you'll get games at Celtic.
Dembele, Ajer, Christie, Frimpong, Wanyama, Tierney - all joined Celtic at a young age, improved their game and got big moves.
Matt O'Riley will join that list soon.

The perception that Celtic ruined careers of young Irish talent in recent times is nonsense. They simply weren't good enough.
Lee O'Connor, Connell, Afolabi, Okoflex look at their careers now - that's not Celtic's fault.

If Lawal is good enough, it shouldn't be hard for him to break into the Celtic midfield especially with O'Riley on the verge of leaving.



Connell's doing well enough to make it worth asking the question as to where he'd be now if he hadn't wasted three years of development at a crucial age at Celtic.

[CSAD]

Connell's doing well enough to make it worth asking the question as to where he'd be now if he hadn't wasted three years of development at a crucial age at Celtic.


Although to give Celtic some defence, the SPL is one of the worst leagues in Europe for giving u21 players game time. I was reading an article on transfermarkt which highlighted the concern for Scotland's future and statistically this fact was mentioned and it was pretty damning.

For me this window is a huge one in the career of Lawal. If he is serious about developing as a player & he is well advised by his representatives he'll leave Celtic as soon as possible. He's going to go nowhere at Celtic and the sooner he realises that the better.

[Diggs246]

Connell's doing well enough to make it worth asking the question as to where he'd be now if he hadn't wasted three years of development at a crucial age at Celtic.
I would actually like to see luca called up for a friendly
I know he's league one, but he is one of Barnsley best players and he is in a position that we are crying out for.

Also no-one would be surprised if Barnsley got promoted to the championship

[ColourfulPeanut]

Whether you want to blame Celtic for it or not, the lack of options for a player once they age out of U18s but aren't ready for the first team are shocking. At English clubs you have PL2, as well as lots of loan options with feeder clubs and a solid pyramid to get players a move.

At Celtic, once you hit 18, it's off to Celtic B to play on astroturf in the Lowland League. Playing against grown men with limited to no football ability, in terrible conditions.

Luca Connell went from playing in the Championship at 16 to the Scottish 4th tier in less than 3 years. That's not a good reflection on anyone involved but the structure at Celtic is a problem. They also have enough relative financial backing to dip into the transfer market at home and abroad to get first team players whenever they need them.

Celtic are a massive club but heading to them or to Scotland in general would be the last thing I'd recommend to a young, talented footballer.

[seanfhear]

Celtic are at the deep centre of a Fenian plot to destroy the British game of association football from the inside = = Genius.

[CSAD]

Whether you want to blame Celtic for it or not, the lack of options for a player once they age out of U18s but aren't ready for the first team are shocking. At English clubs you have PL2, as well as lots of loan options with feeder clubs and a solid pyramid to get players a move.

At Celtic, once you hit 18, it's off to Celtic B to play on astroturf in the Lowland League. Playing against grown men with limited to no football ability, in terrible conditions.

Luca Connell went from playing in the Championship at 16 to the Scottish 4th tier in less than 3 years. That's not a good reflection on anyone involved but the structure at Celtic is a problem. They also have enough relative financial backing to dip into the transfer market at home and abroad to get first team players whenever they need them.

Celtic are a massive club but heading to them or to Scotland in general would be the last thing I'd recommend to a young, talented footballer.

That's exactly it, it's probably the reason so few Scotland u21 players remain at Celtic once they hit 18/19 as they recognise this shortcoming and move on.

The issue I have with Celtic is they have no plan to address this shortcoming, they are happy to throw their youngsters to the wolves. I mean you look at Johnny Kenny for instance, he goes from playing regularly for Sligo to Celtic and is then playing week in, week out in the 4th/5th tier of Scottish football until he eventually gets a loan to the 2nd tier, surely it doesn't take a genius to see that this was only going to be a detriment to his development....and he was again another player who went backwards after signing on loan for Rovers, literally a shadow of the player he was when he broke through at Sligo until this season when he got his mojo back. If Celtic were any good at developing young players in this instance if he wasnt seen as ready for Celtic he should have been on loan at a SPL side of a LG1 side in England, the ideal next step in his development...the way they treated him showed they had no plan in developing him and Kenny/his representatives should have known that before signing.

I think for players like Scales or Idah it's a good place to go because they've played plenty of experience behind them and Celtic provides an opportunity for potential develop as players but for players like Lawal they should be staying well clear.

The article highlighted that the SPL is just not a good league for developing u21 players and I think you see that now in the English premiership as less and less teams are loaning their players there than before and instead favour loaning them to the Championship/Lg1/Lg2.

Looking at the article they suggested some of the best leagues for u21 players was the Austrian and Czech leagues, and looking at nordic countries that has fast become a popular place for their players to go.

Bosun Lawal is just the latest player to make a poor career decision by signing for Celtic but he's still young and there's still time for him to make the correct decision, hopefully he does that and leaves this window.

[JR89]

Was an unused sub in Celtics second game in the US where they made 11 changes in the second half. Along with being subbed on and off last week in the second half maybe it's safe to assume that Lawal's future this season is away from Celtic.

With his contract situation wouldn't be surprised if it's a permanent move either. Only two years left on his contract and would except Celtic to want him to sign a new deal before going on loan.

[nigel-harps1954]

Dembele, Ajer, Christie, Frimpong, Wanyama, Tierney - all joined Celtic at a young age, improved their game and got big moves.
Matt O'Riley will join that list soon.



How many of those players did Celtic develop?

Jury is out on Dembele being a success yet. He had to have a loan at Blackpool at League One last season to get him up to speed at senior football.

Ajer had over 60 apps for IK Start before joining Celtic, still needed a year at Kilmarnock before he got any games there.

Christie was already an established SPFL player before joining Celtic. Still needed two years on loan at Aberdeen before getting anywhere near a chance.

Fimpong came out of Man City academy, 19 years old, almost 20, and went straight into the first team squad.

Wanyama was already an established senior player in Belgium before joining Celtic.

Kieran Tierney is the only real success from Celtic academy in your list of players, which ranges from young lads through to players in their mid-30s.

It's not a very exhaustive list, and Celtic continues to sign promising young players who end up playing lowland league football, which is not beneficial to their development. It's like sending lads on loan to the Leinster Senior League and expecting them to come back ready for the first team.

[Eirambler]

Probably also worth noting that Tierney, their only youth development "success" in recent times, left Celtic a physically broken player, likely as a result of being overplayed and rushed back from various injuries during his time there.

[MylesNotMiley]

Probably also worth noting that Tierney, their only youth development "success" in recent times, left Celtic a physically broken player, likely as a result of being overplayed and rushed back from various injuries during his time there.

So we've gone from Celtic not giving young players a enough playing time to Celtic overplaying them....

Also, is Callum McGregor not considered a youth development "success"?
50+ caps and two Euro tournaments for Scotland, 90+ appearances in the Champions & Europa Leagues, numerous trophies, never lost a cup final in his career to date (Yes, it's in Scottish football but still impressive).

We haven't got a central midfielder even close to McGregor's ability or leadership.

[seanfhear]

How good are you if you can't get in to the Celtic team ~ Celtic midfield in this case ?

[nigel-harps1954]

So we've gone from Celtic not giving young players a enough playing time to Celtic overplaying them....

Also, is Callum McGregor not considered a youth development "success"?
50+ caps and two Euro tournaments for Scotland, 90+ appearances in the Champions & Europa Leagues, numerous trophies, never lost a cup final in his career to date (Yes, it's in Scottish football but still impressive).

We haven't got a central midfielder even close to McGregor's ability or leadership.

So, two players in the last 15 years or so constitutes a success?

And the point was Celtics development of young players is at fault, so yes, overplaying Tierney is an issue there too.

[Rayzor]

How good are you if you can't get in to the Celtic team ~ Celtic midfield in this case ?

You'd want to be international class since all 3 starting center mids that start for celtic are full international for Scotland, Denmark and Japan.

[seanfhear]

You'd want to be international class since all 3 starting center mids that start for celtic are full international for Scotland, Denmark and Japan.
I am sure Celtic have requirements for more than 3 midfielders.

[Rayzor]

They also have a Norwegian u21, another full Japanese international and look like they are resigning bernardo who is a Portuguese u21 international.

[MylesNotMiley]

So, two players in the last 15 years or so constitutes a success?

And the point was Celtics development of young players is at fault, so yes, overplaying Tierney is an issue there too.

I'm not saying Celtic's youth system is first class on a par with Ajax.
My argument is Irish players joining Celtic and not making the grade isn't the clubs fault - the players just weren't good enough.

The Irish lads I mentioned aren't exactly tearing up trees since they left the club.
If anything Celtic's scouting system needs improving if they thought Afolabi, O'Connor & Kenny etc were ever going to be top level players.

If Lawal is good enough he'll get gametime at Celtic just like O'Riley, Ajer and all the others I mentioned.

One of the issues Celtic face now is a lot of their top academy players are being offfered more money in England and Celtic can't afford to pay that level of wages to lads that may or may not be a success.

[MylesNotMiley]

Fimpong came out of Man City academy, 19 years old, almost 20, and went straight into the first team squad.


Signed almost to the day Frimpong joined Celtic - Lee O'Connor came out of the Man Utd academy 19 years old and wasn't good enough.

Frimpong now plays for the Champions of Germany and O'Connor is in and out of the Tranmere Rovers first team.

That's not Celtic's fault.

[Eirambler]

So we've gone from Celtic not giving young players a enough playing time to Celtic overplaying them....

Also, is Callum McGregor not considered a youth development "success"?
50+ caps and two Euro tournaments for Scotland, 90+ appearances in the Champions & Europa Leagues, numerous trophies, never lost a cup final in his career to date (Yes, it's in Scottish football but still impressive).

We haven't got a central midfielder even close to McGregor's ability or leadership.

In fairness, if you're having to resort to using a player who is now 31 years old as an example of youth development success, then you've already pretty much lost the argument.

It's now 15 years since McGregor made his Celtic debut.

[elatedscum]

How many of those players did Celtic develop?

Jury is out on Dembele being a success yet. He had to have a loan at Blackpool at League One last season to get him up to speed at senior football.

I assume he meant Moussa rather than Karamoko, who falls into the Frimpong, Wanyama, Van Dijk category of guys who signed at 20/21 and were immediately ready for first team football. That's what Celtic do best. Guys coming from decent leagues who can go straight into the first team, it's a decent environment for a player to develop. Idah was 22 when he arrived but basically fits into the same category of footballer.

[Eirambler]

Exactly. Celtic works well as a shop window for already developed players given it's geographical proximity to the big money in England and the easy access they are afforded to group stage European football. It's a geographical quirk, basically. But their youth development record is pitiful.

[CraftyToePoke]

I assume he meant Moussa rather than Karamoko, who falls into the Frimpong, Wanyama, Van Dijk category of guys who signed at 20/21 and were immediately ready for first team football. That's what Celtic do best. Guys coming from decent leagues who can go straight into the first team, it's a decent environment for a player to develop. Idah was 22 when he arrived but basically fits into the same category of footballer.

Yeah, he listed first team signings in a discussion about youth development and fell back onto McGregor, who broke through a generation ago at this stage. Their ages might be similar in some instances but the comparison rightly ends there. Chalk & cheese.

But this is also the guy who said someone high up in the FAI told him the contract was ready for Sagnol and it was good as done, around the same time HH was getting on a Ryanair out of Reykjavik a couple of weeks back.

[CraftyToePoke]

How good are you if you can't get in to the Celtic team ~ Celtic midfield in this case ?

It's not that simplistic, at any club, especially one in a title race every single season where coming second is coming last. The manager may not be expected to bring youth through and therefore won't, no matter how good you might be if you got a chance. It looks a lot like that is the situation at Celtic, they have so few and give hardly any opportunities. You might be excellent but not fit his set up. He might look at you and think you aren't good enough and be wrong, and the game is littered with these errors of judgment, one of my favourites is Leeds releasing Dennis Irwin as not good enough.

More recently, Aston Villa dropped eighteen million this week, on a player they let leave this time last year. Was he worth a chance that he didn't get ?
Yes, it looks like he was, because what they already had just cost about twenty million to get back.

The Man City trio, Grealish, Foden, and Palmer. One had to leave to get games, not only was he good enough, he made their finals squad ahead of one and outshone the other at the finals on bits & scraps of minutes off the bench.

There is more to getting the chance than being good enough to take it if it does come your way.

[CSAD]

So we've gone from Celtic not giving young players a enough playing time to Celtic overplaying them....

Also, is Callum McGregor not considered a youth development "success"?
50+ caps and two Euro tournaments for Scotland, 90+ appearances in the Champions & Europa Leagues, numerous trophies, never lost a cup final in his career to date (Yes, it's in Scottish football but still impressive).

We haven't got a central midfielder even close to McGregor's ability or leadership.


Having to pick a player who only really broke through in 2014 just proves my point, thanks for that.


PS he's in the same category as Josh Cullen, he's not that good either.

[elatedscum]

I'm not saying Celtic's youth system is first class on a par with Ajax.
My argument is Irish players joining Celtic and not making the grade isn't the clubs fault - the players just weren't good enough.

The Irish lads I mentioned aren't exactly tearing up trees since they left the club.
If anything Celtic's scouting system needs improving if they thought Afolabi, O'Connor & Kenny etc were ever going to be top level players.

If Lawal is good enough he'll get gametime at Celtic just like O'Riley, Ajer and all the others I mentioned.

One of the issues Celtic face now is a lot of their top academy players are being offfered more money in England and Celtic can't afford to pay that level of wages to lads that may or may not be a success.

The issue your totally missing is, that the reason they're not pulling up trees is the fact they wasted years at Celtic. It's so detrimental to spend 2 years formative years playing no football. Celtic reserves playing in the lowlands league, which is probably the equivalent to like the second division in LSL.

1) Luca Connell - age 17 season, breaks into a team playing regualry in the championship, wins multiple MOTM awards. Called up to the irish senior team.
Age 18 season, signs for Celtic. Makes 0 appearances.
Age 19 season, makes 0 appearances for Celtic. In March of the year, he's loaned to a 4th tier Scottish side - gets them promoted, at this point loses his place in the ireland 21s
Age 20 season, loaned to the same team now in the 3rd tier of Scottish football. Wins promotion with them again and is released by Celtic
Age 21 season, signs for Barnsley and is in the PFA team of the year
Age 22 season, Barnsley reject interest from the championship sides to keep him - misses from the start of the season to November with incredibly serious post viral fatigue but by the end of the season, he's back playing very well

But if he'd signed for one of the championship clubs who wanted him instead of Celtic, he'd be far far better off...

Afolabi signed for Celtic off the back of an incredible U19 Euros where he was named in the team of the tournament. That team included what are now 4 Spain internationals (Ferran Torres, Eric Garcia, Juan Miranda, Antonio Blanco), 3 lads at champions league clubs (Veira at Arsenal, Tenas at PSG and Solet at RB Salzburg). The remaining four lads are two lads playing in the Portuguese league and one lad who's played 170 games for Lyon. Then you've got Afolabi. He rejected clubs in the premier league, the championship, league 1, russia, netherlands and germany to sign for Celtic. I spoke to one of his best friends at the time before he had moved and he said they were trying to find the balance between him signing for a club where he would definitely play (knowing if he signed for Palace or West Ham, he'd be with the reserves) vs going too low down the leagues, i.e. getting stuck in League 1 and not getting back up as high as he thought/hoped he could. Celtic promised him that he'd be straight in the first team and he'd have opportunities and games. It never materialised. He signed in August and within 2 weeks Neil Lennon said he was on the cusp of the the team. In September again, he said that he had really impressed him. In October, he said he was blown away by his performances in training and for the reserves. In January, he was loaned to the scottish championship before Covid hit. Was sent on a series of other loans to scottish backwaters before being released. He came back to Ireland absolutely shatter of confidence and after a rough 6 months, in his first full season, was top scorer in LOI before moving to Belgium for an undisclosed fee (approx €500k? initial bid of 200k was rejected). once again, if he had decent development between 19 and 21 instead of regression and stagnation, he'd be a much much better player now. Circa 2019, he was the 5th in a group of promising strikers (Parrott, Idah, Obafemi, Connolly and Afolabi - and yet he's the only one without an international appearance).

You can do the same with Okoflex who was so so highly regarded by Arsenal but Brendan Rodgers told him he'd do for him what he did for Raheem Sterling at 17. And you can look at Lee O'Connor, who was signed on the same day as Frimpong (playing the same position). He was already an Irish international, came second to Mason Greenwood for United's young player of the year and then absolutely stagnated. Duff has spoken about it where Lee was promised loads and then a few hours later they signed Frimpong and everything that was promised to Lee was given to the far more physically developed and better Frimpong. Both had the ability to become first teamers, but once Frimpong signed O'Connor had no chance.

Rovers fans have spoken about Kenny returning a shell of his former self and being a far better player at Sligo than he was when he arrived back in Ireland for the 2023 season and it was only this season when he looked right again.

Hard to know what Celtic can do. The answer would be to allow reserve teams to move up the pyramid like they do in Spain. And in fairness, you'd probably get a great crowd at Celtic reserves if they were playing on Sunday in the scottish championship - but they can't get it done and the standard of the first team is so much higher at Celtic and Rangers that talented kids from the academy can't immediately step up unlike the rest of the teams in Scotland, where if promising enough at 16, 17, 18, 19 - you'll get minutes easily.

Also they invest yearly in those players from foreign leagues who are immediately ready for the first team, hoping they can flip them for triple the price in 2 years time - we've mentioned plenty, so they always have a massive squad and a tonne of players at the fringes of the first team. Currently the first team squad is at 28, excluding the likes of Lawal - and they're actively looking to add to it. Liverpool comparatively have a senior squad of 22 right now, which means there's so much more opportunity for kids to come in and make an impact.

My advice to Lawal, Quinn, Kenny, Cannon and Asogie would be to get out as soon as you can. The chances are so incredibly stacked against you...

[pineapple stu]

1) Luca Connell - age 17 season, breaks into a team playing regualry in the championship, wins multiple MOTM awards. Called up to the irish senior team.
How many man-of-the-match awards did he win in his eight starts, which saw one point and two goals scored for a team that were such an absolute shambles off the pitch they had to play a 17-year-old Lucan Connell because most of their squad had left?

Players with career paths like Afolabi, Okoflex and Kenny are dime a dozen. A while back I had a look at the Liverpool U21 team that toured Ireland in 2015 and only one of them went on to make it any way big (Sergi Canos, now at Valencia). Even Ben Woodburn - the Welsh wunderkid - is after signing for Salford now. Is Liverpool a club to avoid too?

There may well be a kernel of truth in your post - I think it can be hard to break through at a club under such pressure to keep winning that the safe option can be seen as the best one - but I don't think the examples quoted are the best ones to argue your point.

[CSAD]

How many man-of-the-match awards did he win in his eight starts, which saw one point and two goals scored for a team that were such an absolute shambles off the pitch they had to play a 17-year-old Lucan Connell because most of their squad had left?

Players with career paths like Afolabi, Okoflex and Kenny are dime a dozen. A while back I had a look at the Liverpool U21 team that toured Ireland in 2015 and only one of them went on to make it any way big (Sergi Canos, now at Valencia). Even Ben Woodburn - the Welsh wunderkid - is after signing for Salford now. Is Liverpool a club to avoid too?

There may well be a kernel of truth in your post - I think it can be hard to break through at a club under such pressure to keep winning that the safe option can be seen as the best one - but I don't think the examples quoted are the best ones to argue your point.

Alright Celtic fan.

[CraftyToePoke]

Is Liverpool a club to avoid too?

There may well be a kernel of truth in your post - I think it can be hard to break through at a club under such pressure to keep winning that the safe option can be seen as the best one - but I don't think the examples quoted are the best ones to argue your point.

& Liverpool might not be the best one to argue yours.

Kelleher. TAA. Jones. Bradley.
Elliot. Danns. Doak. Phillips.

Some are exclusively their work, some joined their academy from other clubs, but all came through there.

Celtic by comparison ..... was his point.

[CSAD]

& Liverpool might not be the best one to argue yours.

Kelleher. TAA. Jones. Bradley.
Elliot. Danns. Doak. Phillips.

Some are exclusively their work, some joined their academy from other clubs, but all came through there.

Celtic by comparison ..... was his point.


Trying to argue with Celtic fans about the club they support is like talking to the wall...clear example was using an u21 side from one tour.

[pineapple stu]

& Liverpool might not be the best one to argue yours.

Kelleher. TAA. Jones. Bradley.
Elliot. Danns. Doak. Phillips.

Some are exclusively their work, some joined their academy from other clubs, but all came through there.

Celtic by comparison ..... was his point.

My point was the range of players elated selected was way too narrow to use them to make a point about Celtic.

Is Celtic's academy great? Maybe, maybe not. Is it responsible for where Connell, Afolabi, Okoflex and Kenny now find themselves? I think that's a bit of a stretch. Any big club will have plenty of players in their academy not make it.

[CraftyToePoke]

My point was the range of players elated selected was way too narrow to use them to make a point about Celtic.

Is Celtic's academy great? Maybe, maybe not. Is it responsible for where Connell, Afolabi, Okoflex and Kenny now find themselves? I think that's a bit of a stretch. Any big club will have plenty of players in their academy not make it.

Broaden the parameters in relation to Celtic as much as you want, you won't find a functional development path. He selected the players of interest to this forum, granted. He made good points.

The saying goes, when in Rome, they also say when on holiday eat where the locals eat. Have a look at Scotlands under 21s squad & recent call ups. They won't go near the place & there's a reason & hair splitting his argument on sample size is neither here nor there.

[pineapple stu]

But do you really think a year at Celtic is all that's standing between the players he mentioned and a place in the Ireland squad? That's how the post reads to me.

Or do you think they were capable of going on a downward career all on their own?

[CraftyToePoke]

Is it responsible for where Connell, Afolabi, Okoflex and Kenny now find themselves? I think that's a bit of a stretch. Any big club will have plenty of players in their academy not make it.

I think its reasoned and credible to judge being sent to Highlands League at such a key development stage is not how things should be. The game is all about levels, that level has no relevance to where these players aspire to be in the following year or two. And its not working.

Lads saying they should be good enough to break through if they're talented enough, is not the full picture, its part of the equation but only part. If development, coaching, contact time with other top prospects wasn't important, why do all the big clubs have kids in their systems and on their radars from seven & eight years of age ? It isn't for the want of a hobby.

What happened to Afolabi can happen, yes. But with our Celtic lads it keeps happening.

[pineapple stu]

Afolabi had numerous ineffective loans in the Scottish Championship. Looks like he was just ****e.

Lawal got a full season on loan in League One. Got relegated from it too. Seems to have been one of Fleetwood's better players, but that's not saying much. Still, something to build on. But it's a bit much to expect him to go from a relegated League One team straight into a Champions League group stage side, don't you think?

Kenny got a loan in the Scottish Championship - about LoI level really. Wasn't great there, but then there were questions raised as to why Celtic signed him in the first place. The only Celtic flop there was in the scouting; what happened after that was entirely predictable.

Connell got a decent move out of Celtic. And that's fine - we don't need the players to break through at Celtic necessarily. His Bolton games are ludicrously hyped up.

Okoflex is a knacker who was caught making inappropriate comments about an 8-year-old girl while at Celtic. Seems not the smartest in general.

And yeah, going out on loan defeats the point of going to Celtic to an extent. But that happens at other clubs too. So the chances are there (at non Highland level)

In general I'd prefer to see guys getting first team games rather than joining big clubs cos they see their names in lights. But I don't know those careers would have panned out a huge amount differently had they been at different clubs to be honest.

[CraftyToePoke]

Grand.

& I think spending any time in Highlands League & at a club with a clear oven ready only first team operating model, while trying to ( being close to ) breakthrough in an elite level tiny margins ruthless environment, is unnecessary self harm & it looks like the best of Scottish youth are on that page too, all of them.

Its time pointlessly spent & it increases the already stacked against you odds & why do that ?

[pineapple stu]

There may well be something in that for sure. Though you suggest some were "close to" a breakthough? Were Kenny or Afolabi really close to a breakthrough while floundering about in the Scottish Championship? Or are you overhyping our players a little bit again? Lawal may be close - but then you'd be fairly ****ed off if he was in the Highland League this year. Hopefully a loan a level about Fleetwood.

[MylesNotMiley]

But this is also the guy who said someone high up in the FAI told him the contract was ready for Sagnol and it was good as done, around the same time HH was getting on a Ryanair out of Reykjavik a couple of weeks back.

The contract was ready, but Sagnol turned them down on the Sunday evening - the FAI then offered a contract to Hallgrimsson and he accepted it and was announced on the Wednesday.

That's why Hallgrimsson's name was never mentioned, came totally out of the blue and caught everyone by surprise.

All very FAI.

Anyway hope you enjoyed the scroll back through my previous posts.

[CraftyToePoke]

There may well be something in that for sure. Though you suggest some were "close to" a breakthough? Were Kenny or Afolabi really close to a breakthrough while floundering about in the Scottish Championship? Or are you overhyping our players a little bit again? Lawal may be close - but then you'd be fairly ****ed off if he was in the Highland League this year. Hopefully a loan a level about Fleetwood.

What I mean is, consider the thousands of kids continent wide attached to clubs, and these lads make it to being contracted to a club who can offer a life changing contract and maybe more if you do well. That's what I mean by being close, they've already made it way further than most, they've got a real chance, few get to where they got to.

& at that point, to make a decision that sees you togging out for Highlands League. Jesus, why would you.

[CraftyToePoke]

The contract was ready, but Sagnol turned them down on the Sunday evening - the FAI then offered a contract to Hallgrimsson and he accepted it and was announced on the Wednesday.

That's why Hallgrimsson's name was never mentioned, came totally out of the blue and caught everyone by surprise.

All very FAI.

Anyway hope you enjoyed the scroll back through my previous posts.

Ah, Miley no no. I didn't scroll back, don't be like that

I remembered laughing at it at the time, was all.

Great story too. Fair play.

[elatedscum]

How many man-of-the-match awards did he win in his eight starts, which saw one point and two goals scored for a team that were such an absolute shambles off the pitch they had to play a 17-year-old Lucan Connell because most of their squad had left?


It's a long while ago, but if memory serves me correct, it was his debut against Reading in the league, the FA Cup game they lost and one other... I know they were in absolute shambles – but he was the player who above all got credit from the latter part of their season.


The other thing with Celtic in general is, the last three seasons they've signed 11, 10 and 9 players on permanent deals - there were also loans too, which we won’t count. And most of those have probably been a success. But when you’re signing that number of players, there’s an obligation to give them minutes, give them time to integrate etc. etc. So it’s almost impossible to give kids an opportunity when you’ve say got a core squad of 18 at the club, another 10 new faces trying to integrate and establish themselves and then kids behind them. If you’re curious…


Year 1:


Hart £1m (good business to solve their goalkeeping situation for 3 years)
Juranovic £2.5m (good business, sold after 18 months for £7.5m +)
Scales £500k (good business, first team regular for peanuts)
Hatate £1.4m (great business, probably worth 10 times that)
O’Reilly £1.5m (great business, think they rejected a €15m bid from Italy for him)
Kyogo £4.5m (great business, averaging 25 goals a season for that money is great)
Abada £3.6m (sold for £10m, so financially lucrative at least, even if it was messy due to the Israeli situation)
Giakoumakis £2.5m (sold for £4.3m, decent spell, tidy profit)
-
Starfelt £4m (sold for €5m, no harm)
Ideguchi £850k (sold for £870k, no harm, low risk gamble)
-
McCarthy FREE (terrible business, 27 games in 3 years on good wages)


Year 2:


Maeda £1.6m (another bargain for a very good footballer)
Carter Vickers £6m (considered to be worth much more than that)
A Johnston £3m (good deal, worth a good bit more than they paid)
Jota £6.4m (sold for £25m after a year)
Oh £2.5m (sold for £4.5m after 18 months, spell was mixed but tidy profit)
Haksabanovic (decent first season, left on loan to Stoke after that, they made another good profit)
-
Siegrist FREE (back up keeper, rarely needed, job done)
Mooy FREE (useful pro at the end of his career)
-
Bernabei £3.75m (don’t think it has really worked out but they’ll probably recoup most of the fee)
Kobayashi FREE (low risk, hasn’t worked out)


Year 3: no point on judging these after 1 season:


Nawrocki £4.3m
Palma £3.5m
Lagerbielke £3m
Kuhn £2.8m
Holm £2.5m
Yang £2.1m
Tilio £1.5m
Kwon £1m
Iwata £830k


You can see it’s a really good business model and if you can do it consistently, which they have, it’s excellent. They take gambles on a lot of players, generally in a particular age bracket, knowing that a few will be worth a tonne more, plenty will make a tidy profit and a few will be busts. But you have to accept that that comes at the expense of developing young players. And it’s totally ok to look at your situation in Scotland and decide that it’s too hard and too risky and too expensive to develop youth players and it’s simply not worth it, when you’ve got excellent scouting and you have the ability to consistently turn a profit off a player age 20-23 who you sign for £2.5-6m.


It’s terrible for the youth players but from a Celtic perspective - I can understand it.


Once again to go back to the Liverpool comparison, in those 3 seasons where Celtic signed 30 players (excluding loans), Liverpool signed 8-10 players, depending on how you categorise young and senior players (Diaz and Konate in Y1, Nunez, Gakpo, Carvalho(?), Ramsey(?) In Y2, and Endo, Szoboszlai, Gravenberch and MacAllister in Y3. Always just a handful of senior players trying to adapt, always space for a youth team player to breakthrough.


RE the irish tour of 2015, a) that’s a long time ago and b) I’d never look at a pre-season tour’s u21 team as way to look at the kids in an academy or coming through. Almost the best kids end up on a preseason tour - I’m pretty sure an 18 year old Joe Gomez and a 20 year old Raheem Sterling and an 18 year old Harry Wilson would have been on the senior tour that summer, 18 year old Ryan Kent too - and another 8 of their best kids.


As broadly mentioned by crafty, Liverpool:


Kelleher - signed at 16, second keeper and a really good keeper at that
Jaros - signed on his 16th birthday, with Czechia at the euros, now third choice behind Kelleher
-
Trent - been at Liverpool since age 6. 300+ appearances, won everything (premier league, fa cup, league cup, champions league, world club champs), PFA team of the year x3, FIFA world 11, Uefa team of the year, PFA Young Player of the year, etc etc etc.
Bradley - signed at 16, having been part of their NI development centre since age 9
-
Quansah - signed age 5, now a first choice centre back playing 33 games last season, called up to England age 21.
Phillips - useful fringe player, signed at 18 from Bolton
Van Der Berg - signed at 17. Will either replace Matip or be sold - Liverpool asking price is £25m
-
Gomez - signed just after his 18th birthday. Over 200 games for Liverpool
-
Bajcetic - signed at 16 from Spain, still a teenager, last season ruined with injuries but youngest ever player to start a champions league knockout game (vs Real Madrid) and had an excellent debut season at age 17/18, playing 19 games before getting injured in March.
McConnell - signed at 14, won a league cup medal, playing in the final age 19 last season
-
Jones - signed age 9, 133 senior games already.
Elliott - signed at 16, 119 games for Liverpool at age 21
Clarke - another League cup winner, injured right now, otherwise real potential to break in just like Jones and Elliott have
-
Gordon - signed at 16, Liverpool’s second youngest ever goalscorer, was injured for 2 years but is now back
Doak - signed from Celtic at 16, another with injury issues, was called up by Scotland to the euros age 18 but withdrew with injury
Danns - signed age 8, by far the most natural goalscorer Liverpool have produced since the days of Owen and Fowler, went from the first year schol as an u18 to 21s and senior team all in a year. Played in that final.


Could also have mentioned Nallo, Morton, Koumas, Nyoni. To me, that’s a well functioning system. It’s difficult when the standards are so high at the top end of the premier league, but to consistently be able to believe in young players and to give them opportunities, so they can ultimately become first team squad members and first team regulars, it’s admirable.

[Stuttgart88]

But what have Liverpool won? :)

[Stuttgart88]

Alright Celtic fan.You obviously didn't follow the Idah thread!

[Stuttgart88]

Lots of long posts exchanged above (bravo) but as I’ve argued before, the nature of the top of the SPL is that it’s a no-mistake zone. Out of nowhere Rangers lost at Ross County and that was that. As Crafty says, second is last in Scotland so it’s much safer to buy semi-established players rather than to develop them (I think elatdscum says this too). I’m no expert, but I think rugby teams like Leinster can blood talent because of the play-off system in their league – finishing in the top 4 is the initial target, so the odd unexpexcted defeat doesn’t hurt. It can kill you in the SPL. I think the seeding of the URC playoffs with SA teams now involved changes that a bit though, but there’s much more margin for error here.

I think there’s a lot of merit in what elatedscum suggests about Afalobi, Lee O’Connor et al. I remember being really excited by Afalobi at U19s but had a nagging doubt that he was just bigger and faster, a great advantage at that level. O’Connor looked good when he was capped by Ireland.

CSAD’s off the mark accusing Pinaeappler of seeing things through the lens of a Celtic fan though. He’s sceptical of elatedscum’s (anti-Celtic) thesis but wasn’t much enthused by Idah staying at Celtic. I’m a Celtic fan and think elatescum might be right - I’m generally not keen on untested Irish players going there - whereas I think a return to Celtic would be brilliant for Idah.

[CSAD]

Lots of long posts exchanged above (bravo) but as I’ve argued before, the nature of the top of the SPL is that it’s a no-mistake zone. Out of nowhere Rangers lost at Ross County and that was that. As Crafty says, second is last in Scotland so it’s much safer to buy semi-established players rather than to develop them (I think elatdscum says this too). I’m no expert, but I think rugby teams like Leinster can blood talent because of the play-off system in their league – finishing in the top 4 is the initial target, so the odd unexpexcted defeat doesn’t hurt. It can kill you in the SPL. I think the seeding of the URC playoffs with SA teams now involved changes that a bit though, but there’s much more margin for error here.

I think there’s a lot of merit in what elatedscum suggests about Afalobi, Lee O’Connor et al. I remember being really excited by Afalobi at U19s but had a nagging doubt that he was just bigger and faster, a great advantage at that level. O’Connor looked good when he was capped by Ireland.

CSAD’s off the mark accusing Pinaeappler of seeing things through the lens of a Celtic fan though. He’s sceptical of elatedscum’s (anti-Celtic) thesis but wasn’t much enthused by Idah staying at Celtic. I’m a Celtic fan and think elatescum might be right - I’m generally not keen on untested Irish players going there - whereas I think a return to Celtic would be brilliant for Idah.

With all due respect, that's nonsense. The arguments could be made with the Czech league & Austrian league and yet they have no issue with bringing through young players, the SPL is just a terrible league for youth development and Celtic are one of the worst in it. Even at the end when Celtic had the league won they still weren't blooding young players which just kills the idea that the "unique" challenges of the SPL arent the main reason for Celtic not blooding young players, they are just terrible at it.

The fact is for the likes of Afolabi and O'Connor we will never know how good they could have been if they hadn't wasted so many years at Celtic "developing" but I will say irrespective of their supposed talent level, the fact they were willing to stay there as long as they did and didnt move on when it was apparent Celtic didnt have any clear pathway to the first team just shows me they A. Didn't have their head screwed on & B. They weren't very well advised. With those two factors playing a role I suspect unless they were a huge prospect the odds of them ever making it was probably slim.

Ah no Pineapple is a Celtic fan through n through, even if he tries to deny it the level of which he'll defend Celtic no person would do unless they have emotional attachment to the team they are talking about. In regards to the likes of Idah I agree, for academy players I'd run like the plague away from Celtic but for players like Idah and Scales its not a bad place to go.

[JR89]

With all due respect, that's nonsense. The arguments could be made with the Czech league & Austrian league and yet they have no issue with bringing through young players, the SPL is just a terrible league for youth development and Celtic are one of the worst in it. Even at the end when Celtic had the league won they still weren't blooding young players which just kills the idea that the "unique" challenges of the SPL arent the main reason for Celtic not blooding young players, they are just terrible at it.

The fact is for the likes of Afolabi and O'Connor we will never know how good they could have been if they hadn't wasted so many years at Celtic "developing" but I will say irrespective of their supposed talent level, the fact they were willing to stay there as long as they did and didnt move on when it was apparent Celtic didnt have any clear pathway to the first team just shows me they A. Didn't have their head screwed on & B. They weren't very well advised. With those two factors playing a role I suspect unless they were a huge prospect the odds of them ever making it was probably slim.

Ah no Pineapple is a Celtic fan through n through, even if he tries to deny it the level of which he'll defend Celtic no person would do unless they have emotional attachment to the team they are talking about. In regards to the likes of Idah I agree, for academy players I'd run like the plague away from Celtic but for players like Idah and Scales its not a bad place to go.

It may well be Lawal's turn this summer to sit down and have a long and hard think about his future. Celtic will likely want him to sign a new contract if he goes out on loan unless they've a clause to extend his contract.

With Vata leaving on a free and Daniel Kelly turning down a new deal with six months left on his contract they won't want a situation where Lawal returns next summer with only 12 months remaining on his deal.

[pineapple stu]

Lots of long posts exchanged above (bravo) but as I’ve argued before, the nature of the top of the SPL is that it’s a no-mistake zone. Out of nowhere Rangers lost at Ross County and that was that. As Crafty says, second is last in Scotland so it’s much safer to buy semi-established players rather than to develop them (I think elatdscum says this too). I’m no expert, but I think rugby teams like Leinster can blood talent because of the play-off system in their league – finishing in the top 4 is the initial target, so the odd unexpexcted defeat doesn’t hurt. It can kill you in the SPL. I think the seeding of the URC playoffs with SA teams now involved changes that a bit though, but there’s much more margin for error here.

I think there’s a lot of merit in what elatedscum suggests about Afalobi, Lee O’Connor et al. I remember being really excited by Afalobi at U19s but had a nagging doubt that he was just bigger and faster, a great advantage at that level. O’Connor looked good when he was capped by Ireland.

CSAD’s off the mark accusing Pinaeappler of seeing things through the lens of a Celtic fan though. He’s sceptical of elatedscum’s (anti-Celtic) thesis but wasn’t much enthused by Idah staying at Celtic. I’m a Celtic fan and think elatescum might be right - I’m generally not keen on untested Irish players going there - whereas I think a return to Celtic would be brilliant for Idah.
I'm not a Celtic fan first off. I've said that to CSAD before but he doesn't tend to listen to things he doesn't want to hear...

I felt Celtic was a good move for Idah - I'd argued for a loan move somewhere for him - but the disappointment was that he was still coming off the bench for most of it. He was at least scoring more off the bench than at Norwich so there was that, but I think he needs to be starting games at this stage of his career. That's all.

I don't disagree with the idea that a youth player going to a club like Celtic - with their pressure to win - isn't necessarily a great career move. UCD develop lots of players precisely by not having a pressure to win. (I mean, slightly different level, but...)

But - that's not quite the same as arguing that Celtic are destroying these guys' careers. The Highland League isn't great (then again, Liam Scales came through the LoI First Division), but the players have gotten plenty of loan moves to higher leagues and some haven't made anything of them. I think the players have to take a large amount of blame for that, and they're hardly the first players ever to have failed to make it at senior level.

(And I think Celtic have to take blame for signing Kenny, cos I think he was never up to that level to begin with)

[joey B]

1821839367846953037

[CSAD]

1821839367846953037

Thank f*ck that's over, I am very critical of his agent as he should have advised him to get out of Celtic a long time ago.

[CSAD]

I'm not a Celtic fan first off. I've said that to CSAD before but he doesn't tend to listen to things he doesn't want to hear...

I felt Celtic was a good move for Idah - I'd argued for a loan move somewhere for him - but the disappointment was that he was still coming off the bench for most of it. He was at least scoring more off the bench than at Norwich so there was that, but I think he needs to be starting games at this stage of his career. That's all.

I don't disagree with the idea that a youth player going to a club like Celtic - with their pressure to win - isn't necessarily a great career move. UCD develop lots of players precisely by not having a pressure to win. (I mean, slightly different level, but...)

But - that's not quite the same as arguing that Celtic are destroying these guys' careers. The Highland League isn't great (then again, Liam Scales came through the LoI First Division), but the players have gotten plenty of loan moves to higher leagues and some haven't made anything of them. I think the players have to take a large amount of blame for that, and they're hardly the first players ever to have failed to make it at senior level.

(And I think Celtic have to take blame for signing Kenny, cos I think he was never up to that level to begin with)

Nah I disagree, you're a Celtic fan which is clear from how much you religiously defend them.