3 tier league

[pineapple stu]

True, but the LoI and the IL are close enough in size that the comparison holds a bit of water.

[EatYerGreens]

A tweet this morning from the Chairman of Cliftonville.

"@GerardLawlorCFC: Lots of media & PR around an All Ireland league, I find the current proposals lack substance and are unrealistic, some of our southern clubs joining @OfficialNIFL could be a way forward, we in the north have a very progressive league and we should be weary of tampering with it."

So progressive that only last year Cliftonville's team found themselves in a position where they had to bow their heads to 'God Save the Queen' before a Cup Final, whilst their fans booed throughout it. Because the DUP forced the IFA to go back on a policy they had introduced to not play the anthem if a 'nationalist' team made the final.

Screams of progressiveness right there.

[EatYerGreens]

Not entirely sure how anything in the North can be called progressive tbh.

The league maybe punches above its weight in terms of population when you look at crowds (especially away support) and facilities. But the standard is poor, technique hardly seems a consideration in coaching at all, and losing an entire European place is not something progressive leagues do.

That said, I don't blame him at all suggesting the current AIL proposals are too vague for consideration

Some provincial clubs do well in NI for their population size e.g. Coleraine and Balymena. Not so much the rest. Crusaders have pretty poor support, considering their level of success over the last 5 years.

And it's easy to bring decent numbers of away fans when most of the games they need to travel to are within roughly 30-40mins distance. Many Irish League fans list the short distances as a reason against an AIL, which in my view just smacks of minnowism.

[EatYerGreens]

Facilities and attendances have been improving steadily in the Irish League and they have had massively fewer club meltdowns in recent times. I can see why they would look at the LOI and wonder what would be in it for them.

Being realistic, they've had fewer meltdowns because no-one has been putting money into the Irish League.

What has caused almost every club in the LOI to meltdown has been spending to excess to chase the dream - a vicious circle which means other clubs then feel they ned to up their spending too just to stand still. Creating a widespread contagion of financial risk (at Shels, Rovers, Cork, Derry, Drogheda, Sporting Fingal, Bohs). Also the fact that Linfield have an in-built financial advantage due to the deal they have with the IFA over Windsor Park - which means other smaller clubs probably just accept their place in the pecking order (in a way that the likes of Drogheda United and Sporting Fingal didn't in the LOI when they decided that they could live the dream too.

Now that the IL is finally starting to see some external investment at Larne and Glentoran, it'll be interesting to see how and where this all pans out. Money inevitably corrupts sport, and the IL is now starting to get some money put into it.

[EatYerGreens]

You are right to say population should be taken into account. Based on the average LOI attendance as given in another thread on this forum, 0.22% of the population go to a LOI over a round of fixtures. NIFL attendances, based on the current average attendances are 0.4% of the population. Not sure it can be claimed that the LOI performs better on that basis.

I think that's a bit of a disingenuous way to look at it though. 5 of the 6 counties in NI have an IL team. Only 12 counties out of 26 in the Republic have an LOI club. So to take a whole-territory approach is essentially to cook the figures against the LOI in terms of macro-population.

Also - what tiers do those figures include for both leagues? Just the top level in each, the top 2 in each, or the IL top tier vs LOI 2 top tiers? If the latter - then again it wouldn't be comparing apples with apples.

[EatYerGreens]

Yeah, basically the population of the North is roughly one-third what it is here, so attendances should be one-third as well.

That'd be one team pulling 7k average, and four more pulling in 4k+

Not happening obviously

That just doesn't work though. No matter where you live in NI, you have a team in the Top 2 tiers of the Irish League to support within a relatively short distance of you - at the very least in your own county.

The same just can't be said in the Republic, where more than half of all counties have no LOI presence.

And that's before we get into the greater competition from GAA down south, and also the fact that people take a much more parochial view of country boundaries as a result of it (which would impact the number of people from, say, Meath prepared to support an LOI club from Dublin - just as a random example).

Finally - NI's population (1.85m) is almost 40% of the ROI's population (4.85m).

[Mr_Parker]

Being realistic, they've had fewer meltdowns because no-one has been putting money into the Irish League.

What has caused almost every club in the LOI to meltdown has been spending to excess to chase the dream - a vicious circle which means other clubs then feel they ned to up their spending too just to stand still. Creating a widespread contagion of financial risk (at Shels, Rovers, Cork, Derry, Drogheda, Sporting Fingal, Bohs). Also the fact that Linfield have an in-built financial advantage due to the deal they have with the IFA over Windsor Park - which means other smaller clubs probably just accept their place in the pecking order (in a way that the likes of Drogheda United and Sporting Fingal didn't in the LOI when they decided that they could live the dream too.

Now that the IL is finally starting to see some external investment at Larne and Glentoran, it'll be interesting to see how and where this all pans out. Money inevitably corrupts sport, and the IL is now starting to get some money put into it.

The reason no one can throw money at a NIFL club on a punt is because of the controls in place that I mentioned earlier. That's why there have been no meltdowns since. Yes both Larne and Glentoran have had major financial injections, but those too are constrained by the controls in place and any danger of things going out of kilter will be spotted by the authorities long before they become a significant issue and then a club would be forced back on a straight path. NIFL clubs cannot chase a dream to a point of destruction.

[Mr_Parker]

I think that's a bit of a disingenuous way to look at it though. 5 of the 6 counties in NI have an IL team. Only 12 counties out of 26 in the Republic have an LOI club. So to take a whole-territory approach is essentially to cook the figures against the LOI in terms of macro-population.

Also - what tiers do those figures include for both leagues? Just the top level in each, the top 2 in each, or the IL top tier vs LOI 2 top tiers? If the latter - then again it wouldn't be comparing apples with apples.

Stats can always be played with, but the population point was raised and I have provided an answer.

[pineapple stu]

Finally - NI's population (1.85m) is almost 40% of the ROI's population (4.85m).
OK - so LoI has 2½ times the population to draw on, not 3 times. Same basic point.


That just doesn't work though. No matter where you live in NI, you have a team in the Top 2 tiers of the Irish League to support within a relatively short distance of you - at the very least in your own county.

The same just can't be said in the Republic, where more than half of all counties have no LOI presence.
True. But why don't Kilkenny, Monaghan, Kildare and Tipp, for example, have an LoI presence? They had one, but there was so little support for it that all the relevant clubs went bankrupt. Teams from Carlow, Kerry and Mayo dipped their toes into the A League, but went no further. So I think that stat reflects badly on the LoI rather than excuses it to be honest.

Yes, the GAA is an issue - though they have it in the North as well - but if football is culturally more dominant in the North, well that's a plus for them, and part of the reason why they get proportionally better figures. You can't twist that to excuse the LoI's relatively poor crowds.

Bottom line for me is that the IL is a relatively well-supported league for its level, though it's not without its faults; the technical standard, like so much else in the North, is stuck several decades in the past. But there tends to be a bit of a view on here - not from everyone, but from some - that for the IL not to want to join an AIL indicates a lack of ambition, when it's "ambition" that's caused so many problems for the LoI in the first place. I think we in the LoI can look down on the IL to a bigger extent than we're entitled to do.

[ThirdManRun]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-7601787/amp/Collapsing-clubs-led-plans-Irish-league-merger.html#click=https://t.co/JfDxrYe9xS

Looking forward to hearing if there’s anything concrete on these proposals or if it’s all just hot air.

IF they have DAZN on board that would be brilliant, absolutely top notch streaming service.

[Nesta99]

Stats can always be played with, but the population point was raised and I have provided an answer.

Stats of course have to be used but as you allude to dont tell a full story. On average IL and LoI fare pretty well statistically on the proportion of populations that attend football in Europe, iirc The Faroes top the heap at about 4% of the population that attend games but of course 4% of 50k isnt going to generate too much of the revenue needed to be competative. Croatia is the closest comparison that an AIL benchmark could have and yet even as WC runners up, the Croat league averages less than 3k at games (take the big 2 out of that!!?). Population, number of clubs in the senior set-up, competition with other sports, tradition. cultural identity, politics, wealth/cost of living, corruption, credibility of a league and NGB et al have to be taken in to consideration with the cold figures. AIL or league restructures will make damn all difference unless what is brought with is additional revenue. More money should = better product and facilities then additional interest from public and tv companies and hopefully snowball. That's all stating the obvious but there is little that improve a league's or (via) clubs' stock than a good or even tragic story! A bottomless pit of money available for PR to a small league/club would never gain the attention than Dundalk's 2016 European campaign did (the whole Dundalk story seemed to resonate more than Rovers qualification to EL groups, i'll presume due to the 'rags to riches' aspect in this media age). Success breeds success and unless an Irish club gets to the group stages again sooner than later the bit of positive PR traction will be totally lost. Preferably Dundalk will top up the momentum gained in general interest next Summer ;)

It's a well worn tale but the criticism of the domestic product, especially that gets televised, is often disproportionate to the actual quality of the game - ridiculous comparisons with EPL/CL games get rolled out. We hear about a 'great advertisment for the league' all too often and I find it patronising especially from LoI pundits. That's the attitude that needs to change and I feel can only happen with the credibility that comes from European success and international players plying their trade domestically. An AIL would help to facilitate such circumstances but not be a silver bullit. If an AIL were to happen certain fixtures would attract crowds and media attention but after a few years the novelty would wear off and we'd be back at square one unless with an AIL or any restructuring comes the (often irrational) realisation of benchmarks by which the public judge the domestic game.

[Ezeikial]

As usual Vinny Perth is fairly clear in articulating his views


Dundalk FC head coach Vinny Perth has said that the new proposal of splitting the League of Ireland is “nonsense” and he believes if such a move goes ahead that it is “actually going to make it worse”.

https://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/news/sport/487896/have-we-not-learned-anything-dundalk-fc-boss-on-nonsense-league-restructure-calls.html

[colonelwest]

As usual Vinny Perth is fairly clear in articulating his views



https://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/news/sport/487896/have-we-not-learned-anything-dundalk-fc-boss-on-nonsense-league-restructure-calls.html

Absolute pearler of a quote here and spot on imo:


“Changing the structure of the league – this thing of splitting leagues and doing all this rubbish – it’s nonsense,” Perth said.
“The best team wins the league over 36 games.
“I’m probably waiting for Eddie Hobbs to jump out and sell me an apartment from Cape Verde or something. Have we not learned anything?"

:D:D:D

[Charlie Darwin]

Good Talla man is Vinny - straight to the point.