3 tier league

[passinginterest]

There’s no paywall on the Indo just need to register an account.

Seems to be more to it than what’s been suggested previously. Top league would effectively be a separate entity run by a commercial company (like the English premier league). 14 team top league with North and South leagues below that.

Doesn’t get into the European places too much, UEFA seem to have said come back to us once you have a something that looks like it’s going to happen. Presumably the argument would be that two separate FAs will continue to exist in two separate UEFA nations, so there would be a league within a league type scenario for the European places, potentially.

[pineapple stu]

Is it just some punter making up a new league structure which sounds dynamic and new, or is there any sort of attempt to show how the new structure would actually lead to an improved league?

Because pretty much any proposal I've ever seen can be summed up as Detailed new league format -> [scene missing] -> profit!

[ThirdManRun]

Is it just some punter making up a new league structure which sounds dynamic and new, or is there any sort of attempt to show how the new structure would actually lead to an improved league?

Because pretty much any proposal I've ever seen can be summed up as Detailed new league format -> [scene missing] -> profit!

Anything I’ve read of the financial planning seems to revolve around TV deals, but I also remember reading about Irish-American investment based on the positive PR around a cross-boarder competition. Potentially pie in the sky, but better chance securing investment than at present.

On a basic level, you’d imagine there would be an upturn in attendances/sponsorship for each club which would generate more income. Clubs in either first division would face less travel distance which would be a way of cutting back on spending too.

The fact that it would just be 26 league games, one home and one away, meaning no midweek games would be great too!

The part I don’t understand is why the Quinn group don’t just row in behind this proposal and copper fasten the expertise they claim to have and put it behind a solid and cohesive plan?

[pineapple stu]

Anything I’ve read of the financial planning seems to revolve around TV deals, but I also remember reading about Irish-American investment based on the positive PR around a cross-boarder competition. Potentially pie in the sky, but better chance securing investment than at present.

On a basic level, you’d imagine there would be an upturn in attendances/sponsorship for each club which would generate more income. Clubs in either first division would face less travel distance which would be a way of cutting back on spending too.
Problem for me is that "potentially pie in the sky" and "you'd imagine there would" really don't cut it when talking about something like this. You need solid details - an actual TV deal, or actual sponsorship or investment opportunities.

That's why the best thing for the league is to hammer out a TV deal or to increase the sponsorship, not play about with the league structure. To me, this just sounds like the same aul ****e again.

[passinginterest]

Problem for me is that "potentially pie in the sky" and "you'd imagine there would" really don't cut it when talking about something like this. You need solid details - an actual TV deal, or actual sponsorship or investment opportunities.

That's why the best thing for the league is to hammer out a TV deal or to increase the sponsorship, not play about with the league structure. To me, this just sounds like the same aul ****e again.

Hard to say without seeing the actual proposal. Based on the article, this guy seems to have a very promising track record, has done a lot of prep work and research and allegedly has serious tv interest and sponsors lined up.

[pineapple stu]

So get the TV and sponsorship deals done then.

Why the need to focus on daft league restructuring as part of it all?

Sounds similar to Platinum One, who had great things lined up for an AIL, but who were ultimately all bull**** when it came to it.

[EatYerGreens]

Problem for me is that "potentially pie in the sky" and "you'd imagine there would" really don't cut it when talking about something like this. You need solid details - an actual TV deal, or actual sponsorship or investment opportunities.

That's why the best thing for the league is to hammer out a TV deal or to increase the sponsorship, not play about with the league structure. To me, this just sounds like the same aul ****e again.

If you want a new structure with a guarantee of success, you're probably not going to get it.

There's going to have to be some degree of educated guess/leap in the dark over all of this.

I would fully expect attendances to increase substantially if a new and novel structure was introduced, combined with marketing of it for example. No-one has any idea what those attendances would be. Or even what type of marketing is likely to work best in driving them. This is all about trying something new.

[A N Mouse]

If you want a new structure with a guarantee of success, you're probably not going to get it.

There's going to have to be some degree of educated guess/leap in the dark over all of this.

I would fully expect attendances to increase substantially if a new and novel structure was introduced, combined with marketing of it for example. No-one has any idea what those attendances would be. Or even what type of marketing is likely to work best in driving them. This is all about trying something new.

Are the two things getting conflated here?

I don't see how you can put forward an ail proposal to anyone clubs, sponsor, TV or investors without having some idea of structure in place, as it's something that doesn't currently exist.

This three tier thing though smacks of the usual rearranging the deckchairs. But it's been put to clubs as an alternative to lucid's proposal and clubs need to make up their minds by Nov 4th.

But any reasonable person could come up with a better proposal than that one after a few pints of stout.

Having had a few pints here's my proposal.

For two years have one twenty team division playing each other home and away. May require some hand waving with uefa.

In the third year split the teams back into two, ten team, divisions based on total points over previous two seasons. Premier being top 10, first being bottom.

At the begining of each season each division is split into two five team conferences, based only on previous season final standings top 5 and bottom 5.

Over the course of a season you play each team in the division home and away, and a second home and away series against each team in the same conference for a total of 26 games.

1st and 2nd overall quality for europe, regardless of conference.

Two teams would be relegated, based not on final points but on an average or coefficient of that year and previous two.

While top two in first get automatic promotion.

All twenty teams would then be involved in a post season cup. The bottom two sides in each conference would go into hat to contest the first round, the remaining teams starting in round 2. Straight knockout format, a European place up for grabs for winner falling back to highest finishing team not already qualified. If a non promoted first division team qualified, they would also be promoted.

This would happen before fai cup final so that would affect this, after the fact. The fai cup place would still only go to winners and go to third in the league if first or second won it.

[pineapple stu]

If you want a new structure with a guarantee of success, you're probably not going to get it.

There's going to have to be some degree of educated guess/leap in the dark over all of this.
Absolutely agree with the first bit.

Which is why there doesn't have to be any leap in the dark over format. You just don't change it. It's fine. It's not the problem.

And I don't agree at all that a "new and novel structure", combined with marketing, would increase crowds "substantially". We've done it before and it hasn't worked. Because ultimately a new and novel structure combined with marketing means nothing has actually changed. UCD v Cork is still UCD v Cork. But UCD v Cork where we can both afford to hold on to our better players would draw a bigger crowd.

If someone has sponsors to bring in, let them do it. A focus on format to me screams that their sponsors aren't all they're worked up to be.

[Real ale Madrid]

Armenia, Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Rep, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Isreal, Lithuania, Poland, Scotland, Serbia, Slovakia, Ukraine and Wales.

All countries which have some form of split in thier league structure. I understand the argument re TV money investment etc but I'm all for anything that will add meaning to games. Yes we have done it before but nothing as radical as this - I'm looking forward to how it pans out if I'm honest. Will there be playoffs as well as the splits - can we,crucially - add an element of relegation to the bottom 6 Div 1 grouping, which will be important imo.

Investment and money are not forthcoming into the league - a radical restructure can envigorate and refresh the league - as it has done in many other leagues accross Europe.

[pineapple stu]

But "Others do it" isn't a cogent argument for changing structure again.

I would like to see a more detailed analysis of how a restructure has, as you suggest, invigorated and refreshed other leagues.

Because that sentence of yours in my entire problem in a nutshell. As is, it's meaningless marketing-speak without any substance whatsoever to back it up.

And we've had that so many times before - launching the "new" league in 2006 being the prime example - that at this stage it's a cliche that deserves to be ignored.

Every proposal for the league must start from the proposition that there is no magic fix. Gradual improvement is the aim, and that's only possible with increased commercial deals. More money = better players = better European campaigns = hold on to players longer = more money.

Anything else - and we've seen this time and again in the LiI - is just doomed to nothingness. And that's not defeatist. It's commercial, logical reality

[Real ale Madrid]

But "Others do it" isn't a cogent argument for changing structure again.

I would like to see a more detailed analysis of how a restructure has, as you suggest, invigorated and refreshed other leagues.

Because that sentence of yours in my entire problem in a nutshell. As is, it's meaningless marketing-speak without any substance whatsoever to back it up.

And we've had that so many times before - launching the "new" league in 2006 being the prime example - that at this stage it's a cliche that deserves to be ignored.

Every proposal for the league must start from the proposition that there is no magic fix. Gradual improvement is the aim, and that's only possible with increased commercial deals. More money = better players = better European campaigns = hold on to players longer = more money.

Anything else - and we've seen this time and again in the LiI - is just doomed to nothingness. And that's not defeatist. It's commercial, logical reality

Jees Stu - I don't have the time to do a statistical analysis of the before and after of each league in Europe - I mean its just my opinion! Its probably your assertion that the league should do this type of analysis and present it and then thats fair enough. Sure if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. There is plenty anecodal evidence to suggest that this type of structure can be good. The leagues I listed above total 16. If you take out the big leagues and countries that only have 6 or 8 top flight teams then over half medium / small leagues in Europe employ this type of structure. Can they all be right or wrong? Have they all dropped the idea? Its going on for over 10 years in Belgium now. The first step in attracting the commercial investment required is to make the product more attractive. would this help in that - maybe yes / maybe no. I must admit I'm struggling to see the the reason for the vociferous nature of the anti-league split. I can see why people don't like it but I'm not sure of the harm this type of thing will do the league in the long term.

[sbgawa]

Heard the Cobh manager on GLITW making the point that forthe first divsion teams it is basically you are in the promotion playoffs (by making the top 4 so no change there) and you get to play bigger matches involving premier teams (last bit is mine) so from a first division POV you could see it as a positive......bit of a sprint at the beginning though !! makes every match vital.
Could help crowds in general as the race to get top 6 and top 4 in both divisions is short and vital

Theoretically possible (although very unlikely) for 4 premier teams to go down in one year.

[pineapple stu]

There is plenty anecodal evidence to suggest that this type of structure can be good.
Is there?

Does it counter the anecdotal evidence that the split was a disaster here when used? That it's more derided than welcomed in Scotland? That the Belgian play-off system is an overly-complicated farce (the Dutch experimented with something similar and dropped it)

I know making the point on foot is different to actually presenting a proposal, when you have to have done research.

But the bottom line is we're still ****ing fixated with a quick fix that simply doesn't exis, while ignoring the real problems - lack of money, no pyramid, betting issues, shrinking number of clubs, different bloody seasons - because they'd take money to fix and Delaney's rent is due. Changing league structure is the number one example of a short-term worthless fix. It's imperative we get away from that mindset.

[sbgawa]

I don't disagree with you that moving the deckchairs will make a huge difference but it doesnt mean its not worth looking at ways to tweak things.
As long as people don't think on its own it is going to make an appreciable difference

[pineapple stu]

Absolutely agree with that.

But tweaking has to be done with some sort of rationale behind it. Not "Others are doing it". But for example, looking at the previous umpteen changes to the LoI structure and asking if they delivered what they were supposed to? Why/why not? What lessons have we learned from going between 12 and 10 and 12 and 10 teams? Are we just proposing a split now because it's been 25 years and it's next in line, or is there a solid sporting and commercial reason for it? And why is a change of format so essential to Lucid (if indeed it is; again, I haven't read his details)? It was essential to Platinum One, and they were a crowd of shysters.

[marinobohs]

Armenia, Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Rep, Denmark, Finland, Greece, Isreal, Lithuania, Poland, Scotland, Serbia, Slovakia, Ukraine and Wales.

All countries which have some form of split in thier league structure. I understand the argument re TV money investment etc but I'm all for anything that will add meaning to games. Yes we have done it before but nothing as radical as this - I'm looking forward to how it pans out if I'm honest. Will there be playoffs as well as the splits - can we,crucially - add an element of relegation to the bottom 6 Div 1 grouping, which will be important imo.

Investment and money are not forthcoming into the league - a radical restructure can envigorate and refresh the league - as it has done in many other leagues accross Europe.

The split idea is as nonsensical as the 4-3-2-1 points system was back in the 80s. it will favour currently 2 teams who could 'bank' on being top 6 (Dundalk and Shams) other clubs would have to budget on playing bottom teams for second half of the season, and that's what it is about - making the 'European qualifiers' stronger, nothing else.

What mythical crowd increase do people envisage ? more Dundalk V Shams games ? once the novelty wears off so does the crowd. Bohs getting more customers in for another game V UCD (example* no disrespect) instead of a game (as current model) against Dundalk ?
how many times have we 'refreshed the League' ? And yet still at first base.

The most salient point is that virtually NO supporters are welcoming this idea.Any business that ignores the very clear views of its market is doomed to failure.
We all want to see increased investment in the LOI, tinkering around with the format every few years is not the solution. a mid/long term business plan with clear targets and performance indicators is.

[sbgawa]

Not sure in our League anything could be taken for granted in terms of making top 6.
Cork were second and Waterford 4th last year and both will finish bottom 4 this year.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I really don't see how attendances will improve on the basis of this three tier idea. They'd be abysmal for the lowest tier, which would surely bring the average down from any benefit in the first or second, though the carrot of a Euro spot for the second tier might help. In the end, it's fair to say the reaction to the idea from actual fans has been resoundingly negative, but I fear that in these post-Delaney days where everyone is scrambling to "do something" to reform the various aspects of Irish football, the optics of this change outweigh its point.

Don't think AIL attendances would be hugely better either, especially after a season or two of such an entity.

[sbgawa]

I really don't see how attendances will improve on the basis of this three tier idea. They'd be abysmal for the lowest tier, which would surely bring the average down from any benefit in the first or second, though the carrot of a Euro spot for the second tier might help. In the end, it's fair to say the reaction to the idea from actual fans has been resoundingly negative, but I fear that in these post-Delaney days where everyone is scrambling to "do something" to reform the various aspects of Irish football, the optics of this change outweigh its point.

Don't think AIL attendances would be hugely better either, especially after a season or two of such an entity.

But we will probably change after a season or two so you don't have to worry about the fall off :)

[marinobohs]

Not sure in our League anything could be taken for granted in terms of making top 6.
Cork were second and Waterford 4th last year and both will finish bottom 4 this year.

That's my point, with the possible exception of the top 2 all other clubs would have to budget on REDUCED crowds due to playing less attractive teams post break.This would necessitate lessening budget commitments to playing staff -shorter or more limited contracts.
Anyone that believes the 'novelty' of playing some first Division team will draw bigger crowds than playing one of the top clubs is, quite frankly, deluded.

I can see improvement for the first Division clubs 'promoted' to the middle division but that will not offset the losses in support to the premier teams downgraded in most cases. overcomplication also makes the league less attractive to prospective investors as it has to be explained to them what the hell is going on !

The main point is I have seen zero evidence that the proposal will generate one cent extra for ANY club. If we accept that lack of investment is the primary problem I fail to see how this will address it. we need actual investment opportunities not mythical pie in the sky possible TV bonanza dreams before messing around with format.

[Dalymountrower]

Absolutely agree with that.

But tweaking has to be done with some sort of rationale behind it. Not "Others are doing it". But for example, looking at the previous umpteen changes to the LoI structure and asking if they delivered what they were supposed to? Why/why not? What lessons have we learned from going between 12 and 10 and 12 and 10 teams? Are we just proposing a split now because it's been 25 years and it's next in line, or is there a solid sporting and commercial reason for it? And why is a change of format so essential to Lucid (if indeed it is; again, I haven't read his details)? It was essential to Platinum One, and they were a crowd of shysters.

Agree that there is no point changing for changes sake. The HSE are now on their fifth/sixth structural/organisational major change in 15 years, all under the guise of "reform", and look how that has turned out.

I don`t think that there is a lot wrong with the Premier division structure as it stands, with better fixture scheduling . If people are desperate to show that a change is being made, maybe a play off between third and fourth for a Europa League place ?
First Division is the real problem, could be potential for more of the bottom half of the Premier Teams to be dragged into playoffs for relegation( three up/three down) against more of the top half of the First Division?
With regard to North v South, a mid week champions league type format, with semi finals and finals on a saturday a la Setanta would be my preference.

[marinobohs]

Agree that there is no point changing for changes sake. The HSE are now on their fifth/sixth structural/organisational major change in 15 years, all under the guise of "reform", and look how that has turned out.

I don`t think that there is a lot wrong with the Premier division structure as it stands, with better fixture scheduling . If people are desperate to show that a change is being made, maybe a play off between third and fourth for a Europa League place ?
First Division is the real problem, could be potential for more of the bottom half of the Premier Teams to be dragged into playoffs for relegation( three up/three down) against more of the top half of the First Division?
With regard to North v South, a mid week champions league type format, with semi finals and finals on a saturday a la Setanta would be my preference.

3 up 3 down madness in my view, would result in yo yo clubs (relegation/promotion/relegation...) The idea that MORE relegation would make the League more attractive to fans or investors is also flawed, who wants to support or be linked with an entity relegated every second year ?
Again, bottom line, any change MUST have a more than reasonable chance of generating additional money into the game. Anything else is rearranging the deckchairs stuff and will in fact lessen the attractiveness of the game here to fans.


I would like to see an AIL and think it would help (novelty and marketing), given the relatively small distances involved it is certainly viable but it seems a way off yet.

[nigel-harps1954]

who wants to support or be linked with an entity relegated every second year ?


Hello Eurovision, Finn Harps calling.

[pineapple stu]

I don`t think that there is a lot wrong with the Premier division structure as it stands, with better fixture scheduling
First Division is the real problem, .
This is spot on. The First Division needs to go. When you've reached the stage of eastern European betting syndicates getting involved, you know you've a huge issue. And with clubs regularly dropping out and very little interest from new clubs, it'll surely reduce in size again before too long. 10 team Premier/8 team First anyone?

That's why I've argued before for a 16-team Premier and a regionalised First Division based on MSL/LSL, etc. So you minimise the changes to the existing provincial setup, you have a clear pathway for any ambitious non-league side to progress, you encourage them into the Premier - not the First - with guarantees of big games from the off, and if they get relegated, it's back to where they were, not starting afresh in the Kerry District League.

That's the structural issue to resolve in Irish football, and while we **** about with various ways of dividing 20 teams, we'll miss the bigger picture.

That setup of course will take a lot of effort to achieve because of the FAI's extraordinary lack of foresight in changing two divisions to summer soccer.

[osarusan]

Jees Stu - I don't have the time to do a statistical analysis of the before and after of each league in Europe
The people coming up with these ideas should be doing that kind of analysis though. An actual analysis and argument support by evidence, rather than 'sure why not, might work'.



I can see why people don't like it but I'm not sure of the harm this type of thing will do the league in the long term.
'Not doing harm' isn't really much of an argument though, it needs to be a bit more convincing than that. Leaving it as it is won't do any harm either.

[Real ale Madrid]

The people coming up with these ideas should be doing that kind of analysis though. An actual analysis and argument support by evidence, rather than 'sure why not, might work'.


And I said that in that post to be fair. I'm just putting forward my own opinion here. Be it right or wrong.



'Not doing harm' isn't really much of an argument though, it needs to be a bit more convincing than that. Leaving it as it is won't do any harm either.

I guess the point I was making there is I'm struggling to understand the entrenchment on this issue. Its like poking the bear. Banners at games the whole lot. A revamp of the league might make it more attractive to sponsors, TV deals etc. If it doesn't then where is the harm in trying is all I'm getting at really.

It doesn't make a difference to me to be honest. If it was a 5 team league with 10 rounds of 4 - id still go. Most, if not everyone who posts here are regular LOI fans - I think creating more meaningful matches has a chance to pull in more casual fans on a temporary basis and the product then needs to keep them there. There is of course no question that tinkering with the format won't make any difference on its own but investors and TV companies are not exactly queuing up and I'm prepared to listen to anyone who thinks they might have an alternative with a view to improving the product. This is one potential way that we might improve it for little investment which doesn't exist anyway.

[oriel]

This is spot on. The First Division needs to go. When you've reached the stage of eastern European betting syndicates getting involved, you know you've a huge issue. And with clubs regularly dropping out and very little interest from new clubs, it'll surely reduce in size again before too long. 10 team Premier/8 team First anyone?

That's why I've argued before for a 16-team Premier and a regionalised First Division based on MSL/LSL, etc. So you minimise the changes to the existing provincial setup, you have a clear pathway for any ambitious non-league side to progress, you encourage them into the Premier - not the First - with guarantees of big games from the off, and if they get relegated, it's back to where they were, not starting afresh in the Kerry District League.

That's the structural issue to resolve in Irish football, and while we **** about with various ways of dividing 20 teams, we'll miss the bigger picture.

That setup of course will take a lot of effort to achieve because of the FAI's extraordinary lack of foresight in changing two divisions to summer soccer.


This would be my choice, 16 team league, call it Super League or whatever, 30 games, nice even split of 15 home and 15 away games, mid week games kept to absolute minimum.

[Real ale Madrid]

This is spot on. The First Division needs to go. When you've reached the stage of eastern European betting syndicates getting involved, you know you've a huge issue. And with clubs regularly dropping out and very little interest from new clubs, it'll surely reduce in size again before too long. 10 team Premier/8 team First anyone?

That's why I've argued before for a 16-team Premier and a regionalised First Division based on MSL/LSL, etc. So you minimise the changes to the existing provincial setup, you have a clear pathway for any ambitious non-league side to progress, you encourage them into the Premier - not the First - with guarantees of big games from the off, and if they get relegated, it's back to where they were, not starting afresh in the Kerry District League.

That's the structural issue to resolve in Irish football, and while we **** about with various ways of dividing 20 teams, we'll miss the bigger picture.

That setup of course will take a lot of effort to achieve because of the FAI's extraordinary lack of foresight in changing two divisions to summer soccer.

MSL and LSL will only end up with Cork / Dublin teams and the rest of the country would become disenfranchised pretty quickly. Do you put in a regionalised structure in the MSL / LSL - what about Connacht / Ulster? The top clubs in Limerick / Tipperary and Kilkenny wouldn't even enter the new pyramid. It’s a massive stumbling block.

The MFA run a champions cup competition which takes all the winners of the regional leagues and is run on a knock-out basis. Some sort of short season competition might work with the winners getting a place in the League, but even in its current format it’s hard to know how seriously it is taken.

[pineapple stu]

A revamp of the league might make it more attractive to sponsors, TV deals etc. If it doesn't then where is the harm in trying is all I'm getting at really.
It won't though. Citation - all the other times we've tried this. The harm in doing it again is that it takes focus away from the real issues.



MSL and LSL will only end up with Cork / Dublin teams and the rest of the country would become disenfranchised pretty quickly. Do you put in a regionalised structure in the MSL / LSL - what about Connacht / Ulster? The top clubs in Limerick / Tipperary and Kilkenny wouldn't even enter the new pyramid. It’s a massive stumbling block.
It is a massive stumbling block, I agree. But nowhere else in Europe as far as I'm aware has this daft fixation on county leagues. Limerick has two leagues FFS! The top clubs in Limerick, Tipp and Kilkenny shouldn't be given an option about entering a revamped MSL (for all Munster clubs). They can decline promotion to the Premier if they want, but the entire non-league structure - of lots of big fish in small ponds - is holding the game back by restricting proper competition (because a proper Munster league would be way stronger) and not encouraging clubs to take a step up to senior level.

[Real ale Madrid]

It won't though. Citation - all the other times we've tried this. The harm in doing it again is that it takes focus away from the real issues.
.

You can't be 100% sure it won't no more than I can be certain it will. Also this particular change is a lot more fundamental than previous top / bottom splits. The real issue of investment and TV money can, nay should, go hand in hand with a revamp.



It is a massive stumbling block, I agree. But nowhere else in Europe as far as I'm aware has this daft fixation on county leagues. Limerick has two leagues FFS! The top clubs in Limerick, Tipp and Kilkenny shouldn't be given an option about entering a revamped MSL (for all Munster clubs). They can decline promotion to the Premier if they want, but the entire non-league structure - of lots of big fish in small ponds - is holding the game back by restricting proper competition (because a proper Munster league would be way stronger) and not encouraging clubs to take a step up to senior level.

Well, what you are talking about there is ripping up the fabric of club soccer in the country, not neccesarily a bad thing. Maybe you are right overall but the bigger clubs in Cork and Dublin will dominate eventually and instead of clubs playing in MSL 2 or 3 - they will end up just drifting back to local leagues over a period of time. Id rather give the winners of all the leagues a chance to play for a place in the league if anyone wanted it. Drifting off topic a touch now.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I'd love to see an FAI with enough balls to take it to the Junior sides regards radical restructure, but that seems as likely as an AIL.

[pineapple stu]

I agree. But the problem is that all this nonsense about "maybe 12 teams will work this time" actually stymies discussion on the real issues we should be having. People get tunnel vision on why 7.5 teams with a top one-third split is the way forward, and it's not. None of it is. But the row over it allows the real issues to go ignored. Which suits the suits just fine. All while the national team continues to decline because there's no investment or structure at senior level

[pineapple stu]

You can't be 100% sure it won't no more than I can be certain it will.
True. But the onus is on the person making the suggestion for change to show how it will work where it didn't work before. Absent such an argument, the status quo is the best option.


Also this particular change is a lot more fundamental than previous top / bottom splits.
It.

Doesn't.

Matter.

A fundamental reshuffle of the same 20 teams is like a right-wing snowflake*. It may be true relatively speaking, but once you zoom out and look at the overall picture, the difference is so small as to be immaterial.

* - better simile welcomed here! :)



the bigger clubs in Cork and Dublin will dominate eventually and instead of clubs playing in MSL 2 or 3 - they will end up just drifting back to local leagues over a period of time.
No they won't, because you get rid of the Kerry District League and the Roscommon and County and whatever other 19th century relics we have. MSL second tier can be regionalised further if needs be, but overall it should be a fluid pyramid.

[Mr A]

For what it's worth, Lucid provided a fair bit of detail when presenting to clubs at the FAI and had a lot of work done working out what might be possible and talking to TV companies etc. He had more to do, but it wasn't just the usual "let's give this a whirl and it'll work for sure" type stuff. He was vastly more impressive than the Visionary Group, who always sound good while talking but later you can't work out what it is they are proposing.

[Real ale Madrid]

True. But the onus is on the person making the suggestion for change to show how it will work where it didn't work before. Absent such an argument, the status quo is the best option.


You are always doing this - you don't agree with someone so you dismiss the argument being absent / not cognent / not good enough etc etc. One thing I know for sure - the status quo aint working.


No they won't, because you get rid of the Kerry District League and the Roscommon and County and whatever other 19th century relics we have. MSL second tier can be regionalised further if needs be, but overall it should be a fluid pyramid.

Best of luck getting rid of those leagues, if that is you're expressed stated ambition at the start, clubs just won't join the Provincial System in the first place.

[pineapple stu]

You are always doing this - you don't agree with someone so you dismiss the argument being absent / not cognent / not good enough etc etc. One thing I know for sure - the status quo aint working.
No - the onus is on the person suggesting big changes to justify them. I have said before that a proposal such as this needs to analyse why previous restructures didn't work, what specifically this restructure aims to do, how it's going to do that, how success will be measured, etc. You haven't done any of that, therefore your solution is not workable. (Lucid seems to have made a start on it, going on what Mr A said)

That's not me making up rules. That's literally how projects should work. You don't jump into a project on the basis of "Yerrah, why not?" You have to have a logical roadmap to measureable success in mind, otherwise you're wasting your time, and we'll all be back here in 3 years' time with another reshuffle.

What does "The status quo ain't working" even mean? It's just an empty soundbite.



Best of luck getting rid of those leagues, if that is you're expressed stated ambition at the start, clubs just won't join the Provincial System in the first place.
Don't give the clubs a choice. I've said that before on this thread.

I acknowledge that it'd be very hard. Maybe next to impossible. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it's the real way to progress, not another league shuffle.

[marinobohs]

You are always doing this - you don't agree with someone so you dismiss the argument being absent / not cognent / not good enough etc etc. One thing I know for sure - the status quo aint working .

No point in changing because it “might make it more attractive “ especially as there is no basis to believe it will improve the League, not one, apart from possibly/maybe/might get a better TV deal. The FAI are giving games away now to T.V. And getting nowhere, why in God’s name would T.V. Stations, currently turning it away actually pay for the restructured model of pretty much the same teams ? (Not pushed about Bohs V Derry but Cabo V Sligo - where do I send the Cheque 😁) Pretty much every LOI fan that has voiced an opinion has slated the idea so why would TV suddenly see it as something to invest in ?
There is damage caused in regularly changing format, especially when no Benifit accrues. LOI people are not adverse to change but there must be more than a Hail Mary chance of progress to justify it.

[Real ale Madrid]

No - the onus is on the person suggesting big changes to justify them. I have said before that a proposal such as this needs to analyse why previous restructures didn't work, what specifically this restructure aims to do, how it's going to do that, how success will be measured, etc. You haven't done any of that, therefore your solution is not workable. (Lucid seems to have made a start on it, going on what Mr A said)

That's not me making up rules. That's literally how projects should work. You don't jump into a project on the basis of "Yerrah, why not?" You have to have a logical roadmap to measureable success in mind, otherwise you're wasting your time, and we'll all be back here in 3 years' time with another reshuffle.


For the love of God - - I'm literally trying to chew the fat here and you want 10 A4 pages of back up. as I've already said - I'll be going to games no matter what.
I've made an admittedly loose argument on the whole thing - I've repeatedly stated that any reshuffle should be in conjunction with a potential TV deal and some proper investment and I think that this is a more fundamental reshuffle than what has gone on in the past which is why it may ( not will ) be different this time. . It is a reality in 17 other medium to small leagues in Europe presently - but I'll be sure if I've ever an opinion on the topic in the future to research each one before and after 'splitting' to determine the size of TV contracts, sponsorship , Attendances and player quality before and after the ‘split’ – (although I’m guessing as these type of splits have been running for at least 5 or 6 years in countries like Poland and Belgium that its working for some). Otherwise I’ll dismiss it out of hand.

[Real ale Madrid]

There is damage caused in regularly changing format,

I think there is a difference with what Lucid is doing as opposed to changing the amount of teams from 10 to 12. This type of split incorporating First Division clubs has never been done here - its more radical than normal. It may or may not be a good thing.




There is damage caused in regularly changing format, especially when no Benifit accrues. LOI people are not adverse to change but there must be more than a Hail Mary chance of progress to justify it.

No empty soundbites allowed marinobohs.

I must say my enthusiasm for the league takes a hit on here at times.

[Real ale Madrid]

Don't give the clubs a choice. I've said that before on this thread.


A proposal such as this needs to analyse why previous attempts at amalgamation didn't work what specifically this amalgamation aims to do, how it's going to do that, how success will be measured, etc. You haven't done any of that, therefore your solution is not workable. That's not me making up rules. That's literally how projects should work. You don't jump into a project on the basis of "We will force them to comply" You have to have a logical roadmap to measureable success in mind, otherwise you're wasting your time, and we'll all be back here in 3 years' time with either less clubs or clubs back with thier local leagues anyway and we will have to start again. (This is a joke btw in case its not obvious)

[pineapple stu]

For the love of God - - I'm literally trying to chew the fat here and you want 10 A4 pages of back up.
I don't want 10 A4 pages of back-up. I want any back-up. Because otherwise, there's no reason to go with it.


I think that this is a more fundamental reshuffle than what has gone on in the past which is why it may ( not will ) be different this time.
It's not more fundamental though. The AIL isn't workable. The top 4/bottom 4 split has huge holes in it. It's nonsense.


A proposal such as this needs to analyse why previous attempts at amalgamation didn't work what specifically this amalgamation aims to do, how it's going to do that, how success will be measured, etc. You haven't done any of that, therefore your solution is not workable. That's not me making up rules. That's literally how projects should work. You don't jump into a project on the basis of "We will force them to comply" You have to have a logical roadmap to measureable success in mind, otherwise you're wasting your time, and we'll all be back here in 3 years' time with either less clubs or clubs back with thier local leagues anyway and we will have to start again. (This is a joke btw in case its not obvious)
I think you're getting stupidly narky here, just because your suggestion has been challenged as having no backup.

I've already outlined what an amalgamation of local leagues would do in terms of increasing the quality at that level (too many big fish/small pools in Ireland) and providing a proper pathway for ambitious non-league teams to reach the LoI proper (without having to pull out of their own league entirely, and then rejoin at the bottom again if the LoI failed, as I think Tralee did). I've outlined why the First Division is a failure (and a second tier is a UEFA requirement). That's also the measure of success - that new clubs join the LoI, that non-league gets stronger as teams play better opposition, that there's a way to relegate the dross at the bottom of the First Division and strengthen the senior set-up, and so forth.

So I get that it's a joke - but you're still not actually seeing the strategic (i.e. non shuffling) points that need to be made here.

[Real ale Madrid]

but you're still not actually seeing the strategic (i.e. non shuffling) points that need to be made here.


I've repeatedly stated that any reshuffle should be in conjunction with a potential TV deal and some proper investment

Just one more thing.....




I think you're getting stupidly narky here, just because your suggestion has been challenged as having no backup.



In your opinion. I'm happy with the points i've made - I might be wrong but that won't be a first. Just because you don't agree with the points i've made then you think they don't exist. Its your modus operandi on here to be fair. You are selectively quoting me as well to try and further your arguement. Anyway better stop now and just agree that I'm wrong!

[pineapple stu]

I'm not selectively quoting you, and it's not my "modus operandi" - others on here have disagreed with you as well. In fact, pretty much nobody has agreed with you.

You've shown no reason why a reshuffle needs to happen. Saying it should happen with a TV deal/new sponsorship is all well and good - but why not have the TV deal/new sponsorship and leave the format as is?

You've said the format isn't working - but what does that mean?

You can't take the hump just because someone challenges another random reshuffle.

[El-Pietro]

I'm with Stu on this one. We shouldn't change just to change. We've done that over and over and it gets us nowhere. If we think the current structure isn't working fine, but lets do the work to understand what the problems are, figure out what might work and set targets for what "working" means and then measure that over time.

If we just change for the sake of changing without understanding what we are aiming for we'll be back in the same situation having the same conversation three years from now. Lets stick with what we have until we have a solid plan.

[Nesta99]

I think the worst thing possible is to change a league format without some current measure on how things are and to be able to measure any subsequent meaningful change's succes or failings. It's arguable that things staying as they are if finances were rejigged rather than a league format is the way to go. Things dont have to all happen at once either. Maybe it is at non-league level initial reform should happen with a view to adjusting senior formats in x year when the rest of the structures are ready for some sort of improved integration/route to the senior game. The introduction of the national underage leagues have already changed the landscape with large underage clubs seeing the senior game differently. The one thing that will only add to the desire to get involved with any senior structure is if it is a financial improvement rather than a burden for current or new clubs. Everything else is simply window dressing. Imo summer football worked but in a scattergun way where one change hit the mark. Nothing new or profound in this of course, just that any change management needs to show a quantifiable rationale for change in the first place and none of us have confidence in this being done at all.

[sbgawa]

Getting the amateur leagues to toe the line needs a strong FAI which we don't have ...at least for now
The switch back to winter soccer by the DDSL is the football equivalent of the German offensive in the Ardennes in 1944.
The Nazi's (DDSL) have thrown the kitchen sink at the FAI National Leagues while the FAI were distracted with all the Delaney crap in a last ditch attempt to keep their influence and stave off defeat.
Until the FAI is strong enough to put the blazers that run these leagues in their place nothing will change.
Money talks , when the FAI is rebooted they can start to giove money to leagues who support the FAI agenda, not as previously to those that support the CEO

[marinobohs]

I think there is a difference with what Lucid is doing as opposed to changing the amount of teams from 10 to 12. This type of split incorporating First Division clubs has never been done here - its more radical than normal. It may or may not be a good thing.




No empty soundbites allowed marinobohs.

I must say my enthusiasm for the league takes a hit on here at times.

No empty soundbites ? you have failed to show ONE shred of progress this will bring except 'current system isn't working'.By all means outline the benefits that will come out of it and we can discuss them but it takes more than an 'admittedly loose argument' (which translates as pretty much zilch).We all want to see our league improve but illogical half arsed proposals that don't have any support among the fans is NOT the way forward.

- again, why would the proposed new format be any more attractive to TV ?
-why would it be more attractive to potential investors ?
- how would it encourage more fans to games ?
- how is it better for players ?

They are a few points I've considered, maybe 'empty soundbites' but slightly deeper than your 'admittedly loose argument'.

[sbgawa]

- again, why would the proposed new format be any more attractive to TV ?
-why would it be more attractive to potential investors ?
- how would it encourage more fans to games ?
- how is it better for players ?

.

TV like more regular "big matches" Super Sunday etc etc and a top six playing off against each other for the league and euro places could offer more meaningful matches and less walkovers.
An 8 team middle section with top 4 promoted and bottom 4 going down is an extended promotion / relegation play off and this particular section could easily see crowds increase as everyone scraps for positions.
the bottom section is a dead rubber but the bottom 6 teams in the first division have crowds so low that they would have a negligible impact on overall attendances.

Is this the solution to the main problems in the league 100% no .....but of the rejigs put forward it has as much merit and probably more than most.
No one could argue that the current scenerio is good for players or clubs , repeated Friday/Monday/Friday fixtures, midweek games that attract small crowds, close season of 6 months for the first division......the list go's on.
In the absence of the real problems being addressed and i can't see much hope of that anytime soon , worth considering other things.

[Real ale Madrid]

No empty soundbites ? .

That was just a joke MB - referencing P Stu giving out to me for saying the league is not working!

I'm actually not even sure I disagree with any of what anyone was saying. My original point was that perhaps that a split may not be a such bad thing. I like the idea of it - perhaps not rationally but I'm off now over the weekend to look at leagues that do it and have pursued with it and see if I can come up with anything!