U23 Players 2018/19

[samhaydenjr]

Aaron Drinan back on the scoring trail in Ipswich's 5-0 win over Millwall, Barry Cotter also featured - https://www.itfc.co.uk/news/2019/january/town-u23s-v-millwall-report/

Olamide Shodipo made a welcome return from injury for QPR against Colchester: https://www.qpr.co.uk/fixtures/under-23/2018/colchester-united-u23s-v-qpr-u23s/

[tetsujin1979]

Brighton are streaming their Premier League International Cup game against Bayern on their youtube channel, kick off at 7pm: https://www.youtube.com/user/officialbhafc
Warren O'Hora starts, Connolly is still injured, and Molumby is presumably not match fit

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[liamoo11]

anyone know anything about the club in Slovakia Ronan from wolves joined?

[pineapple stu]

Simon Power off the mark for Dordrecht in his first start - and it's against Ajax too!

(Jong Ajax, but still)

Edit - hit the woodwork too, and had a great chance from a typical solo run. 3-3 now into the final stages.

[Olé Olé]

Simon Power off the mark for Dordrecht in his first start - and it's against Ajax too!

(Jong Ajax, but still)

Edit - hit the woodwork too, and had a great chance from a typical solo run. 3-3 now into the final stages.
Really good move by him. It might not be the best standard but it's definitely a strong technical standard for young players, pitting yourself against the Ajax academy etc. You would hope it has the first team manager's fingerprints on it too given that Farke is off the Germany and Dortmund manager conveyor belt.

[samhaydenjr]

Jonathan Afolabi keeps his recent good form going with the only goal in Southampton's game against Man united: https://www.premierleague.com/match/39384/premier-league-2/2018-19/man-utd-v-southampton

Adam Idah on the scoresheet for Norwich. Unfortunately they shipped six goals against West Brom: https://www.premierleague.com/match/39387/premier-league-2/2018-19/norwich-v-west-brom

[tetsujin1979]

Troy Parrott signed his first professional contract on his 17th birthday
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[Olé Olé]

Aaron Bolger has signed for Cardiff on loan until the end of the season from Shamrock Rovers. I'm assuming he's gone into their under 23 squad. He will link up with Caoimhin Fowler there.

[liamoo11]

Aaron Bolger has signed for Cardiff on loan until the end of the season from Shamrock Rovers. I'm assuming he's gone into their under 23 squad. He will link up with Caoimhin Fowler there.

Interesting. That rovers midfield was getting top heavy. I assume rovers will want a fee for him when he leaves for real?

[pineapple stu]

Troy Parrott signed his first professional contract on his 17th birthday
1092415318494859264

"could of" *twitch*

[samhaydenjr]

Not a whole lot to report from tonight's games: Kian Flanagan continues to be one to watch with a goal against an Ipswich team that featured Barry Cotter and Corrie Ndaba: https://www.cpfc.co.uk/news/2019/february/u23s-report-palace-v-ipswich-town/

Another welcome return from injury - this time Tyreke Wilson for Man City against a Liverpool team that contained Corey Whelan and Glen McAuley https://www.premierleague.com/match/39255/premier-league-2/2018-19/liverpool-v-man-city

Olamide Shodipo continues his comeback from injury - hit a cross that led to one of QPR's goals in a loss to Charlton: https://www.qpr.co.uk/fixtures/under-23/2018/qpr-u23s-v-charlton-athletic-u23s/

[tetsujin1979]

Pretty sure this is a mistake about Norwich City forward Anthony Spyrou on premierleague.com: https://www.premierleague.com/news/984085#!

Anthony Spyrou (Norwich City)

The 19-year-old Irish forward struck twice last month, including the winner in the Division 2 match against Aston Villa.

Spyrou is from Essex, and can't find any reference to him being Irish, or that he's declared for Ireland

[Charlie Darwin]

Probably mixing him up with Idah.

[samhaydenjr]

Just the one Irish scorer in the Premier league Cup, as Tyriek Wright scored Villa's goal in a 2-1 defeat to Derby - only turned 17 in September, so could be one to watch: https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2019/02/aston-villa-vs-u23-report

[Olé Olé]

Is he growing much I wonder? I thought he looked a lovely player for our 17s but one that I felt needed that development. Playing beside Idah probably didn't help my impression of him in that regard though.

[Closed Account]

Interesting no.64 in the Inter Squad for the Europa League

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[Olé Olé]

Wow. Big congrats to Ryan. Don't know who they have left out but there's enough recognisable names in there to assume not many.

[samhaydenjr]

Jayson Molumby's return, mentioned on his own thread, is very good news

Meanwhile Jonathan Afolabi scored again for Southampton's U23s against Fulham - that's his fourth in five games, which is close to the type of scoring form that propelled Michael Obafemi into the first team earlier in the season. Will Smallbone got Southampton's other goal while Will Ferry got the assist for Afolabi's goal. In total six(!) Irish players featured: Afolabi, Smallbone, Ferry, Aaron O'Driscoll, Thomas O'Connor and a late cameo from Kameron Ledwidge: https://www.premierleague.com/match/39390/premier-league-2/2018-19/southampton-v-fulham

Elsewhere Rowan Roache came on as a late sub for Derby U23s: https://www.premierleague.com/match/39261/premier-league-2/2018-19/leicester-v-derby

[tetsujin1979]

The highlights from the Southampton - Fulham game are in the Saint's YouTube channel
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Two cracking finishes, although the second one is lucky

The full game is also available if you really want to watch it: https://youtu.be/uxMU9USZ9ts

[pineapple stu]

Simon Power given his own banner now by Dordrecht fans, so fair to say he's made a good impression there already.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dy4S72wWsAEiBQ_.jpg

They lost 4-1 to Sparta Rotterdam last night - ex Real Madrid player Royston Drenthe was among the scorers. He quit playing three years ago to concentrate on rap, but came out of retirement this season.

[Cathalsmart]

https://newsamed.com/england-set-sights-on-irelands-luca-connell-next-after-securing-declan-rice/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Words fail me, they are now trying to steal championship players from us.

If only they were this good stopping Wales doing the same, don’t remember them putting as much of a fight with Brooks and Ampadu as they have done with the Irish guys...

[Olé Olé]

I would rather if he bogged off now rather than later like Rice and Grealish though.

[tetsujin1979]

Probably going to see a lot of these stories in the next few weeks.
All of them without quotes from the player, their agents, the club, or either association.

[pineapple stu]

In fairness, this is partly our own fault in that we've largely neglected to invest in domestic football (i.e. the LoI) and are therefore so reliant on 2G players to play for us - I think we're more reliant on it than any other country in Europe.

If we prioritise courting players who are both English and Irish, then this is going to keep happening.

[Olé Olé]

Probably going to see a lot of these stories in the next few weeks.
All of them without quotes from the player, their agents, the club, or either association.

Yeah. And there's a lot of people speculating that these 2 and 3G lads will be facing a lot of this treatment when they meet our underage squads. No harm treat some of them with apprehension. They have to prove themselves as committed before they actually commit now.

[Cathalsmart]

In fairness, this is partly our own fault in that we've largely neglected to invest in domestic football (i.e. the LoI) and are therefore so reliant on 2G players to play for us - I think we're more reliant on it than any other country in Europe.

If we prioritise courting players who are both English and Irish, then this is going to keep happening.

Well I’d say Wales are more reliant but still we are up there with them.

[pineapple stu]

They surprisingly aren't - Cardiff City and Swansea City in particular do a great job for them.

(They're reliant, but not as bad as us)

[Olé Olé]

In fairness, this is partly our own fault in that we've largely neglected to invest in domestic football (i.e. the LoI) and are therefore so reliant on 2G players to play for us - I think we're more reliant on it than any other country in Europe.

If we prioritise courting players who are both English and Irish, then this is going to keep happening.

What about Kosovo?

[pineapple stu]

Not sure about Kosovo tbh.

I did a brief study of this at the time of Euro 2016 and we were the worst of the 24 teams, even worse than Albania, who'd be in a similar position to Kosovo.

But the bottom line is - the LoI is so badly supported that it can't generate international-quality players any more, so we have to look to England, where we are likely to get burned by players who are perfectly entitled to feel English

[Cathalsmart]

They surprisingly aren't - Cardiff City and Swansea City in particular do a great job for them.

(They're reliant, but not as bad as us)

Cmon that’s not true, most of those Cardiff and Swansea teams are full of foreigners. Wales are basically England if we are being honest so it’s probably seen as not too big a deal on both sides when an English player declares, would never have guess Voles was English originally until I did research into it .

[Cathalsmart]

Not sure about Kosovo tbh.

I did a brief study of this at the time of Euro 2016 and we were the worst of the 24 teams, even worse than Albania, who'd be in a similar position to Kosovo.

But the bottom line is - the LoI is so badly supported that it can't generate international-quality players any more, so we have to look to England, where we are likely to get burned by players who are perfectly entitled to feel English

We were tied with Wales on that list and that isn’t really an accurate statement when you use a graph from 3 years ago.

[pineapple stu]

Not the point. Check who the Welsh senior players started their senior careers with - a large amount will have started with those two. So those clubs - way bigger than anything we have - are providing Welsh internationals; Irish clubs have stopped producing Irish internationals since the bust

[Cathalsmart]

Not the point. Check who the Welsh senior players started their senior careers with - a large amount will have started with those two. So those clubs - way bigger than anything we have - are providing Welsh internationals; Irish clubs have stopped producing Irish internationals since the bust

But then that’s twisting facts to suit you’re view? Surely having the same number as Ireland with that being considered is almost a worse sign that despite all that they need to have so many granny rules.

[pineapple stu]

No - Welsh clubs are better at developing Welsh players than Irish clubs are at developing Irish players.

Therefore we're more inclined to look towards 2G players, and therefore this kind of stuff (Rice, Grealish) is going to keep happening. And it will keep happening until the FAI and Irish people in general support Irish football

[pineapple stu]

By way of an example - 9 of the last Welsh under 21 squad were with Welsh clubs. At least 5 others had started at Welsh clubs

Ireland by contrast had one LoI player in the last squad, and I think two others who started with LoI clubs. Worlds apart

[samhaydenjr]

No - Welsh clubs are better at developing Welsh players than Irish clubs are at developing Irish players.

Therefore we're more inclined to look towards 2G players, and therefore this kind of stuff (Rice, Grealish) is going to keep happening. And it will keep happening until the FAI and Irish people in general support Irish football

On the senior side, 5 members of the last Welsh squad (of 23 players) started their senior careers at Welsh clubs, three others came through Welsh academies, thirteen were born outside Wales.

On our side, eight players out of our last squad (of 29 players) started their senior careers at LOI clubs, two had their youth careers there and nine others started at Irish schoolboys clubs. Seven were born and raised outside Ireland, two were born in England and raised in Ireland, while one was born in Ireland and raised in England.

So compared to Wales, we're actually still doing significantly better at developing home-grown talent, whether it's through the LOI or the Schoolboys' clubs. But of course there's still much room for improvement if we're to be like Croatia, where 21 of their 23-man squad that made it to the World Cup Final played multiple seasons in the Croatian League before moving on, a league that has an average attendance only about 500-700 higher than the LOI Premier (albeit with two or three big clubs).

[pineapple stu]

Well there's probably lots of points in time you could take that would make different arguments. (BTW, you've missed one Welsh league starter - I make it 6 - but it's not going to change the stats much)

The stats I did from 2016 are attached (why 2016? Because that's when I did what I was doing). So I'll have to backtrack a little - we were level with Wales (and Albania) in terms of players who came through the domestic leagues, and both had more foreign-born players than us. Though don't forget that 8 domestic players for us was so unusual that we made a marketing campaign around it.

Probably Albania (and Kosovo) is an unusual case in that the wave of emigration (in the 90s) means that most of their foreign-born players will have two Albanian/Kosovan parents - quite different to us chasing players with one Irish grandparent. It's probably also much easier - culturally and logistically - for a Welsh player to move to an English club at a young age; it's effectively the same country (e.g. Tom Lockyer starting his senior career with Bristol Rovers, which is just 20 miles from Wales, or Harry Wilson moving 30 miles from Wrexham to Liverpool).

But this isn't about a comparison with Wales as such - my original point is that if we continue chasing 2G and 3G players because we're not producing our own players, then we will get rejected quite frequently. The chart I've attached shows that we are light years behind most other European countries in that regard. This will happen particularly with younger players (Rice, Grealish, etc), and we can see that the Welsh U21 team is far more Welsh than ours is Irish, so it's less likely to be an issue for them.

If you look at the 9 Irish players who started in the LoI, only 1 played since 2011 (Browne was with Cork in 2013, but never played for them). That's the key point here. Most LoI players who've moved abroad in the past few years have, unfortunately, been failures. Hoban, Boyle, Horgan, McMillan, Burke, Forrester and McEleney were all top LoI players, but in England they all moved on relatively quickly from their original clubs (Forrester an honourable exception, but he's back with Pat's now). The jury is still out on Curtis, Towell and even Maguire (got his first goal of the season this week, in his 13th appearance)

So I think it's a huge stretch to say we're better at developing home-grown talent than Wales - or anyone. We had the oldest squad in the Euros precisely because we weren't developing any talent. We're relying on LoI players from ten years ago - the tail-end of the professional LoI - some academy players (a route generally acknowledged to be drying up), and whatever 2G/3G players we can find. Wales have 14 Welsh-club players in their 21s squad while we have 3 Irish-club players. And then you add the quality of the players of course and it's clear that Wales are better at developing home-grown players than we are. And they're not all that good at it.

Almost every other country develops their own players through their national league. We don't - haven't done for nearly ten years - and that's costing us now. "Defects" will grow more frequently, yet how can you really call Rice a defector when he's born in England and his Irish connections are (I think) two Irish grandparents?

The UEFA Youth League has shown that our clubs can compete with professional European teams at U19s level (HJK Helsinki, Molde, Midtylland, even Roma), but then there's a huge gap in player development going missing because we effectively don't have a full-time league for these guys to progress to. It's not surprising, so, that our national standing is dropping to new lows. I think it'll continue to do so while we fail to invest in the game at home.

[CraftyToePoke]

Probably going to see a lot of these stories in the next few weeks.
All of them without quotes from the player, their agents, the club, or either association.

Because there is no story ?

[samhaydenjr]

Well there's probably lots of points in time you could take that would make different arguments. (BTW, you've missed one Welsh league starter - I make it 6 - but it's not going to change the stats much)

The stats I did from 2016 are attached (why 2016? Because that's when I did what I was doing). So I'll have to backtrack a little - we were level with Wales (and Albania) in terms of players who came through the domestic leagues, and both had more foreign-born players than us. Though don't forget that 8 domestic players for us was so unusual that we made a marketing campaign around it.

Probably Albania (and Kosovo) is an unusual case in that the wave of emigration (in the 90s) means that most of their foreign-born players will have two Albanian/Kosovan parents - quite different to us chasing players with one Irish grandparent. It's probably also much easier - culturally and logistically - for a Welsh player to move to an English club at a young age; it's effectively the same country (e.g. Tom Lockyer starting his senior career with Bristol Rovers, which is just 20 miles from Wales, or Harry Wilson moving 30 miles from Wrexham to Liverpool).

But this isn't about a comparison with Wales as such - my original point is that if we continue chasing 2G and 3G players because we're not producing our own players, then we will get rejected quite frequently. The chart I've attached shows that we are light years behind most other European countries in that regard. This will happen particularly with younger players (Rice, Grealish, etc), and we can see that the Welsh U21 team is far more Welsh than ours is Irish, so it's less likely to be an issue for them.

If you look at the 9 Irish players who started in the LoI, only 1 played since 2011 (Browne was with Cork in 2013, but never played for them). That's the key point here. Most LoI players who've moved abroad in the past few years have, unfortunately, been failures. Hoban, Boyle, Horgan, McMillan, Burke, Forrester and McEleney were all top LoI players, but in England they all moved on relatively quickly from their original clubs (Forrester an honourable exception, but he's back with Pat's now). The jury is still out on Curtis, Towell and even Maguire (got his first goal of the season this week, in his 13th appearance)

So I think it's a huge stretch to say we're better at developing home-grown talent than Wales - or anyone. We had the oldest squad in the Euros precisely because we weren't developing any talent. We're relying on LoI players from ten years ago - the tail-end of the professional LoI - some academy players (a route generally acknowledged to be drying up), and whatever 2G/3G players we can find. Wales have 14 Welsh-club players in their 21s squad while we have 3 Irish-club players. And then you add the quality of the players of course and it's clear that Wales are better at developing home-grown players than we are. And they're not all that good at it.

Almost every other country develops their own players through their national league. We don't - haven't done for nearly ten years - and that's costing us now. "Defects" will grow more frequently, yet how can you really call Rice a defector when he's born in England and his Irish connections are (I think) two Irish grandparents?

The UEFA Youth League has shown that our clubs can compete with professional European teams at U19s level (HJK Helsinki, Molde, Midtylland, even Roma), but then there's a huge gap in player development going missing because we effectively don't have a full-time league for these guys to progress to. It's not surprising, so, that our national standing is dropping to new lows. I think it'll continue to do so while we fail to invest in the game at home.

https://foot.ie/attachment.php?attachmentid=2763&stc=1&d=1550347989

Great stats, Stu - shows how being slightly better or worse than Wales is not even the debate we should be having, with so many other smaller nations filling their squads with home-grown players. And point taken on the lack of successful recent LOI graduates. And it is frustrating when you see that attendances at some of these leagues are not much more than the LOI - only a modest improvement in finances could lead to the league becoming a breeding-ground for more Irish internationals, as it was in the not-too-distant past.

On the other hand, the Irish/Anglo-Irish community in England is a resource some of those countries just don't have an equivalent of - and in the short-term it does make financial sense to pay a few scouts to seek out a group of players who have already been whittled down and developed into decent prospects, saving an expensive stage. So they recruit a bunch of players, some don't make it, a couple defect and we're left with half-a-dozen Irish internationals we wouldn't have had otherwise - so you can see why it's done - if you took away the British born and/or raised players from the current Irish squad, it would look significantly thinner.

Of course we should be well capable of developing our own talent, like Iceland and Croatia have done and perhaps we are starting to move down that road a little: recently the FAI let go of some of their English-based scouts (including Don Givens, but keeping Mark O'Toole). Now this may have just been a cost-cutting exercise, but the fact that it was Ruud Dokter who informed them might indicate that it was strategic: https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football/3638622/don-givens-and-mick-martin-to-be-axed-by-fai/

[pineapple stu]

For sure we should be looking to maximise the 2G/3G benefit; I wasn't complaining when Aldridge, Houghton, Townsend et al had us going to World Cups.

But you look at the U21 squad on wiki; of the 18 players, only 6 were born in Ireland. (That includes Shodipo, who only lived here a couple of years and really has no proper Irish connections, but against that Liam Kinsella's dad played for Ireland and Ronan Curtis started playing youth football with Irish teams, and had four years with Derry). That's an excessive reliance on 2G/3G players in my view (Wales by comparison have 11 of 16 Welsh-born) and it can only lead to more defections, which was my original point.

So this stuff of "they are now trying to steal championship players from us" is completely missing the point. We're putting ourselves in this position by failing to invest domestically and instead relying on players who probably feel more English than Irish.

I agree there seems to be a bit of a shift now - Stephen Kenny has said he's going to be looking more towards Irish-born players for his 21s squads as well. But for now, the harsh reality has to be that we're bloody awful at developing players, and so the national team is going to continue to suffer.

[tetsujin1979]

Because there is no story ?
wouldn't be like papers to make up stories that take advantage of a current situation to sell more papers/generate clicks??

[mark12345]

But for now, the harsh reality has to be that we're bloody awful at developing players, and so the national team is going to continue to suffer.

Truer words were never spoken. But the larger question is, how are we doing with developing the coaches who are going to develop those players. I know there is a big emphasis now on Uefa licenses and badges, but should we not be looking to tried and proven coaches who have a track record of developing talent in other countries?

[tetsujin1979]

Troy Parrott not included in the spurs team for their UEFA Youth League game against PAOK this evening.
No indication he's injured or anything on Twitter

[Razors left peg]

Nice to see a few Irish young fellas on this list.....

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/50-most-exciting-teenagers-english-football

[tetsujin1979]

Could be something, could be nothing
Few of the players you'd expect to see playing for Southampton U23's are missing tonight
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[samhaydenjr]

Could be something, could be nothing
Few of the players you'd expect to see playing for Southampton U23's are missing tonight


Yeah I noticed on their site that Afolabi was missing, but now I see that O'Driscoll and O'Connor were also omitted. I think it is the secondary competition for the U23s, plus the Southampton forward line isn't quite as thin as it was when Obafemi broke through last Autumn, so it probably doesn't mean much... but you never know

[tetsujin1979]

They played in the Hampshire cup on Tuesday night against Bournemouth poppies, so possibly just rested: https://southamptonfc.com/news/2019-02-19/report-hampshire-senior-cup-quarter-final-southampton-fc-bournemouth

[Olé Olé]

O'Connor was captain and scored a free kick and managed to change his name to Tom.

[liamoo11]

McCauley scored for liverpool 23s today. Hard to see any path at liverpool for him now he is 19. Shamrock rovers for a season could suit both parties

[samhaydenjr]

McCauley scored for liverpool 23s today. Hard to see any path at liverpool for him now he is 19. Shamrock rovers for a season could suit both parties

Wow... I hope he doesn't read that post - after the high of scoring on his 19th birthday, it would really bring him right down to learn that he's past it now and there's no way he'll make it at Liverpool and he should give up on making it at a high level in England. Crikey, he's a month younger than Connolly and Afolabi and only a few months older than Obafemi, give him a chance.