What could/should the FAI do for the league?

[sbgawa]

The current scenario in Bray/Limerick is leading lots of people to blame the FAI and call for them to "help" the league.
Increasing prize money was mentioned but I don't think that will help as clubs will likely start off the year by saying "guaranteed 20k for finishing last (imaging those riches :) ) lets sign up XYZ player and give him a signing on fee"

What could the FAI actually do that would lead to a better league?

[Duggie]

100 grand for winning the league. Says it all.

[pineapple stu]

Proper pyramid.

Encourage new clubs to join - get rid of the First Division for starters.

Increase prize money significantly.

Increase penalties for ****wittery significantly (relegation to LSL Sunday 1b or whatever, or a 25k fine)

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Get an actual tv deal that provides the clubs with some income.
Proper league pyramid.
Personally I'd be a fan of a wage cap with marquee players and a minimum club developed players rule.
Lodgement of a set amount of months wages before the season starts so there's at least time to try sort everything out if things go wrong.

[WoodquayBoy]

Blah blah pyramid blah blah blah pyramid.
League tried a pyramid structure before (A Championship) and it didn’t work. Mervue and Salthill promoted to First Division in successive seasons. They brought very little, if anything, to the league. Grounds weren’t up to standard, and crowds were abysmal. Pyramid structure will only work if it’s promoting teams from areas that don’t already have LOI representation - no point in Pike Rovers or Carbury or Athenry or Mayfield or Ferrycarrig or similar junior aide stepping up when those general areas are already represented

[pineapple stu]

The A Championship wasn't a pyramid. It was just another rung in the existing non-pyramid.

The point of a pyramid is that a team can give the LoI a try - and get promoted to the Premier Division, not the graveyard - and know that if it fails, they just get relegated back to where they came from. That's a lot different to what we have now.

Was it Tralee Dynamos who joined the A Championship and then ended up back two or three divisions below where they came from because they had to go back to the bottom rung in their local league? Why would anyone join the LoI if that's what could happen to you?

[sbgawa]

How about the fai buy each club a 50 seater coach. Immediate saving on travel expenses (surely clubs could get a volunteer to drive bus) they could also maybe use the bus for community work .
Would benefit smaller clubs to a greater extent which appeals to my socialist side

[Ezeikial]

How about the fai buy each club a 50 seater coach. Immediate saving on travel expenses (surely clubs could get a volunteer to drive bus) they could also maybe use the bus for community work .
Would benefit smaller clubs to a greater extent which appeals to my socialist side

At last some practical suggestions.

Maybe even a double decker that they could put bunk beds into - save on renting accommodation for players?

PS they could also fit a GPS limiter device that the engine could be cut off automatically if the clubs were messing around

[WoodquayBoy]

The A Championship wasn't a pyramid. It was just another rung in the existing non-pyramid.

The point of a pyramid is that a team can give the LoI a try - and get promoted to the Premier Division, not the graveyard - and know that if it fails, they just get relegated back to where they came from. That's a lot different to what we have now.

Was it Tralee Dynamos who joined the A Championship and then ended up back two or three divisions below where they came from because they had to go back to the bottom rung in their local league? Why would anyone join the LoI if that's what could happen to you?
Fair enough on A Championship point in one way, but you have to admit that previous path to promotion was a disaster. I think the FAI believed it would be the likes of Tralee to be promoted, not Mervue. Do we need to protect the clubs we have? If so, then can’t have junior clubs from Donegal, Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Cork, Waterford, Wexford, Dublin, Louth, Longford or Athlone making the step up. Especially if it’s a case of “sure give it a few go lads and see how it goes”. That’s just the way I see it, maybe it’s just as fair to say “well, you ‘existing club’ hasn’t been good enough to stay in the league, so if you go and rebuild while ‘new club’ gets a chance

[pineapple stu]

As a path to promotion, yep, the A Championship was a disaster. Unquestionably.

I know your point on a new junior side from, say, Wexford stepping up - but if they're better than Wexford Youths, then why not? Why should Wexford Youths have the monopoly on the entire county? There's no evidence they're absolutely the best at doing things there. You need competition to keep people on their toes.

I would rather see a side from, say, Offaly or Tipp where there's no senior team. But would you let, say, Greystones United in alongside Bray Wanderers at the moment? Sure. (They'd have to get a ground of course. Or at least have "plans")

[nigel-harps1954]

Scrap the First Division. Bring back the A league and regionalise as the league between regional intermediate leagues and the top tier.

16 team Premier. 12 team A north, and same south. Voluntary B teams to make up defecit of teams. Reserve teams can be relegated into regional intermediate leagues. Formation of Connacht SL to go along with MSL, USL and LSL, all of which get an overhaul and run alongside junior leagues across the country. Each of these SL has a top tier of 10/12 teams running alongside A championship season. Pyramid has to go from top to bottom.

Radical overhaul of prize money, affiliation fees, sponsorship, TV deals and an overhaul of cup competitions.

This has all been done to death though on foot.ie.

[WoodquayBoy]

Connacht Senior League was proposed back in 2012 as part of the ‘Galway Talks’ but there isn’t the interest, some District Leagues play winter season and others play summer. You’d have to get all Senior Leagues to mirror the timeframe of the domestic league season and that ain’t happening

[nigel-harps1954]

Connacht Senior League was proposed back in 2012 as part of the ‘Galway Talks’ but there isn’t the interest, some District Leagues play winter season and others play summer. You’d have to get all Senior Leagues to mirror the timeframe of the domestic league season and that ain’t happening

That'd be the point of the FAI enforcing a pyramid system.

[pineapple stu]

You’d have to get all Senior Leagues to mirror the timeframe of the domestic league season and that ain’t happening
Yep. The move to summer soccer was one of the most short-sighted moves the FAI ever made. And that's really saying something.

[cob655]

Scrap the First Division. Bring back the A league and regionalise as the league between regional intermediate leagues and the top tier.

16 team Premier. 12 team A north, and same south. Voluntary B teams to make up defecit of teams. Reserve teams can be relegated into regional intermediate leagues. Formation of Connacht SL to go along with MSL, USL and LSL, all of which get an overhaul and run alongside junior leagues across the country. Each of these SL has a top tier of 10/12 teams running alongside A championship season. Pyramid has to go from top to bottom.

Radical overhaul of prize money, affiliation fees, sponsorship, TV deals and an overhaul of cup competitions.

This has all been done to death though on foot.ie.


What he said. More counties around the country don't have a LOI side than do, i'm sure there's plenty of football supporters in those counties supporting EPL sides as sky is the closest thing to good football they have, get the whole country involved and maybe tv sponsorship might become a viable option.

[Longfordian]

At last some practical suggestions.

Maybe even a double decker that they could put bunk beds into - save on renting accommodation for players?

PS they could also fit a GPS limiter device that the engine could be cut off automatically if the clubs were messing around

Might also solve the no direct bus from Phibsboro to Tallaght conundrum.

[CorribsideSteve]

Scrap the First Division. Bring back the A league and regionalise as the league between regional intermediate leagues and the top tier.

16 team Premier. 12 team A north, and same south. Voluntary B teams to make up defecit of teams. Reserve teams can be relegated into regional intermediate leagues. Formation of Connacht SL to go along with MSL, USL and LSL, all of which get an overhaul and run alongside junior leagues across the country. Each of these SL has a top tier of 10/12 teams running alongside A championship season. Pyramid has to go from top to bottom.

Radical overhaul of prize money, affiliation fees, sponsorship, TV deals and an overhaul of cup competitions.

This has all been done to death though on foot.ie.

Very well said. I was trying to put similar thoughts into a message. A Pyramid is a must.

[pineapple stu]

Scrap the First Division. Bring back the A league and regionalise as the league between regional intermediate leagues and the top tier.

16 team Premier. 12 team A north, and same south. Voluntary B teams to make up defecit of teams. Reserve teams can be relegated into regional intermediate leagues. Formation of Connacht SL to go along with MSL, USL and LSL, all of which get an overhaul and run alongside junior leagues across the country. Each of these SL has a top tier of 10/12 teams running alongside A championship season. Pyramid has to go from top to bottom.

Radical overhaul of prize money, affiliation fees, sponsorship, TV deals and an overhaul of cup competitions.

This has all been done to death though on foot.ie.
It's also been put to the FAI, don't forget (https://foot.ie/threads/218543-League-of-Ireland-brand-review?p=1902012&viewfull=1#post1902012).

But no, painted bus stops all round instead.

Incidentally, has any club got a painted bus stop yet?

[nigel-harps1954]

Most clubs don't have a bus stop to paint.

[WoodquayBoy]

That'd be the point of the FAI enforcing a pyramid system.
They can’t force the existing clubs to behave within the rules, not a hope of getting regional leagues to play ball (pun intended).

[EatYerGreens]

The single biggest improvement the FAI could make to the LOI - and the one that would have the greatest impact - would be to substantially increase the prize money pot for all participants.

The wide-ranging benefits of that move would include :

- Make the league more inherently viable at a basic financial level.
- Make success less dependent upon qualifying for Europe and the vast, unbalancing riches that entails.
- Improve the quality of the league, by enabling better players to be signed/retained.
- Improve performances in Europe.
- Keep good players here for longer, thereby aiding in their development.
- Enable clubs to improve their facilities - including youth development.
- Make the league more attractive to sponsors and broadcasters.
- Arguably improve the international team.
- Encourage more intermediate clubs to be interested in league membership, by reducing the financial suicide aspect of it.

One change that the FAI could easily afford, which would have the potential to make significant improvements in domestic football in Ireland.

[EatYerGreens]

How about the fai buy each club a 50 seater coach. Immediate saving on travel expenses (surely clubs could get a volunteer to drive bus) they could also maybe use the bus for community work .
Would benefit smaller clubs to a greater extent which appeals to my socialist side

That's the kind of 'big-picture' ambitious thinking our league could desperately do with more of.

[Comic Book Guy]

Very well said. I was trying to put similar thoughts into a message. A Pyramid is a must.
Folks, they say if you mention the word 'pyramid' three times legendz will appear!

[wonder88]

Anyone for central contracts? Scrap the 1st division has to be the starting point(i.e. a one division league). Also geographical factors have to be a guiding principle of any structure that league comes up with. Need Derry/Harps, Galway/Limerick, Cork/Waterford, Dundalk/Drogheda playing each other in meaningful games every year. Try an incorporate the GAA county structure in the feeder leagues already mentioned above.
A bit of realism in relation to tv deals would help, I am sure if a broadcast company is willing to pay a couple million for rights to the LoI, the FAI is not going to refuse it.

[wonder88]

In relation to the FAI buying all the clubs a 50 seater bus, Brian Clough at the start of his managerial career used to drive the Hartlepool coach to away games. In reality he only did it a few times in order to get publicity, but no reason why our guys could not do their psv licence along with their coaching badges.

[sbgawa]

That's the kind of 'big-picture' ambitious thinking our league could desperately do with more of.

Maybe I'm beaten down but all the talk of pyramids etc I just can't see all the vested interests buying in. I'm looking for low budget but effective measures that are achievable and low bar kind of things.

[sbgawa]

Reading that again I am beaten down :)

[David BOHie]

Blah blah pyramid blah blah blah pyramid.
League tried a pyramid structure before (A Championship) and it didn’t work. Mervue and Salthill promoted to First Division in successive seasons. They brought very little, if anything, to the league. Grounds weren’t up to standard, and crowds were abysmal. Pyramid structure will only work if it’s promoting teams from areas that don’t already have LOI representation - no point in Pike Rovers or Carbury or Athenry or Mayfield or Ferrycarrig or similar junior aide stepping up when those general areas are already represented

100%. I fail to see, to a degree, what a pyramid system will do

[pineapple stu]

On its own, it'll do little.

It would only work with other factors - no First Division, decent Premier Div prize money for all positions, no league fees, TV games, a team on a bit of a local high after winning promotion (rather than being invited in), even the idea of entering a Europa League play-off for finishing as low as 12th, as in the PCA document.

So imagine Tralee getting promoted by winning the MSL - there's a bit of local interest built up, they're live on telly away to Cork in their first match, maybe home to Dundalk early on as well, the club know they're guaranteed 100k prize money minimum, and if they finish 12th, they enter a Europa League play-off. They wouldn't win it of course - but imagine Tralee in Europe! That's all with the idea of helping create local interest to (a) encourage new clubs to want to step up and (b) create local interest when they do.

This is vital because if nothing else, we're running out of clubs at the moment. But you also want to strengthen the bottom of the league to help the better clubs; Athlone and Wexford bring nothing to the league on the pitch at present, with all due respect to them. Matches against them are almost a waste of time. Strengthening the bottom of the league is more important than strengthening the top of the league (Dundalk and Cork can look after themselves fine), and a stronger league would benefit everyone anyway.

Obviously there's big political blockers, which is why I'd favour LSL/MSL/CSL/USL as the First Division over Nigel's idea of a new First Division North/South - you'd keep the LSL/etc identity as intact as possible.

But we're about the only league in Europe with no pyramid. Scotland and Holland are among those to have changed in recent years. England changed in the 80s to huge success in the lower leagues. You have to give new clubs and people an opportunity to join, and you have to have relegation to the fifth level (or whatever) as a stick.

[Treaty Gooner]

Don’t they have to have two divisions to qualify for UEFA grants?

[pineapple stu]

I believe so. All the more reason to get new blood in. But the second flight can be regionalised, as in Wales.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Genuinely think it would take a few consecutive catastrophic campaigns from the senior mens national side - and I'm talking, like, 4th/5th place "Kosovo might fancy it" catastrophic - for the FAI to look at the issues with the league seriously, since that's where so much of their focus is. As long as Ireland remain reasonably competitive, and Irish clubs continue to do moderately well relative to their size in Europe, and there's a few senior internationals in the EPL, then the Bray/Limerick situation is just something to be handled, not reacted to. I agree with a lot of what has been said above, especially regards regionalised pyramids and getting the junior scene on-side and prize money, but it's just so hard to see it happening right now. We need a real once-in-a-lifetime revolutionary impetus to get LOI the help it needs. Perhaps some kind of fan-driven campaign/association to lobby political powers that be on a continuous basis would be beneficial.

[marinobohs]

Heighten the profile of the League - ROI senior squad to attend an LOI match each weekend they are getting together. Advertised and promoted, An hour Q&A, signing stuff would bring crowds (that might not usually attend) to a game. whether we like it or not the senior team is the most successful football brand available and most players would have no problem giving an hour o the Friday/Saturday they are here. FFS the open training session they (senior squad) do at lansdowne gets bigger crowds than many LOI games. Also very attractive to younger fans and as would act as a good introduction to their local LOI club.

Get decent T.V. coverage and a proper structured package. there may not be much money available from RTE (and little interest from elsewhere) but focus must be on 'selling' the league. A match day advert made by Boh's (and another I recall by Shams) was better promotional material than anything RTE have done in years.


Registration fees to prize money ratio in LOI is a joke, this must change to attract any potential new clubs.


Overall, an actual plan - other than it will be 'alright on the night' would help, a plan that involves, and has potential benefits for all clubs not just 2/3 that qualify for Europe.

.......otherwise its three Hail Mary's and an Our father that we get through a full season (sure, its 'worked' to date)

[EatYerGreens]

Genuinely think it would take a few consecutive catastrophic campaigns from the senior mens national side - and I'm talking, like, 4th/5th place "Kosovo might fancy it" catastrophic - for the FAI to look at the issues with the league seriously, since that's where so much of their focus is. As long as Ireland remain reasonably competitive, and Irish clubs continue to do moderately well relative to their size in Europe, and there's a few senior internationals in the EPL, then the Bray/Limerick situation is just something to be handled, not reacted to. I agree with a lot of what has been said above, especially regards regionalised pyramids and getting the junior scene on-side and prize money, but it's just so hard to see it happening right now. We need a real once-in-a-lifetime revolutionary impetus to get LOI the help it needs. Perhaps some kind of fan-driven campaign/association to lobby political powers that be on a continuous basis would be beneficial.

I'd argue the opposite tbh.

If the national team hit a wall, far from cajoling the FAI to divert their gaze to the league instead all it would do would be to :

a) See them focus and obsess even more on the senior men's international team, as that is where the organisation's psychological and financial interests lie.

b) Result in less money within the FAI, which would reduce the opportunity of decent prize money in the LOI even further.

I would argue that a financially flush FAI represents the best chance of proper investment in the league, and that the only way to get that is through international success - not failure.

[disgruntled]

The A Championship wasn't a pyramid. It was just another rung in the existing non-pyramid.

The point of a pyramid is that a team can give the LoI a try - and get promoted to the Premier Division, not the graveyard - and know that if it fails, they just get relegated back to where they came from. That's a lot different to what we have now.

Was it Tralee Dynamos who joined the A Championship and then ended up back two or three divisions below where they came from because they had to go back to the bottom rung in their local league? Why would anyone join the LoI if that's what could happen to you?

They were punished for joining the A league. That's one of the problems with football in Ireland.
Lots of local leagues with no joined up thinking & no cooperation between them.
Its all me me me.


Reading that again I am beaten down :)

You & me both :)


On its own, it'll do little.

It would only work with other factors - no First Division, decent Premier Div prize money for all positions, no league fees, TV games, a team on a bit of a local high after winning promotion (rather than being invited in), even the idea of entering a Europa League play-off for finishing as low as 12th, as in the PCA document.

So imagine Tralee getting promoted by winning the MSL - there's a bit of local interest built up, they're live on telly away to Cork in their first match, maybe home to Dundalk early on as well, the club know they're guaranteed 100k prize money minimum, and if they finish 12th, they enter a Europa League play-off. They wouldn't win it of course - but imagine Tralee in Europe! That's all with the idea of helping create local interest to (a) encourage new clubs to want to step up and (b) create local interest when they do.

This is vital because if nothing else, we're running out of clubs at the moment. But you also want to strengthen the bottom of the league to help the better clubs; Athlone and Wexford bring nothing to the league on the pitch at present, with all due respect to them. Matches against them are almost a waste of time. Strengthening the bottom of the league is more important than strengthening the top of the league (Dundalk and Cork can look after themselves fine), and a stronger league would benefit everyone anyway.

Obviously there's big political blockers, which is why I'd favour LSL/MSL/CSL/USL as the First Division over Nigel's idea of a new First Division North/South - you'd keep the LSL/etc identity as intact as possible.

But we're about the only league in Europe with no pyramid. Scotland and Holland are among those to have changed in recent years. England changed in the 80s to huge success in the lower leagues. You have to give new clubs and people an opportunity to join, and you have to have relegation to the fifth level (or whatever) as a stick.

Excellent points there stu.
Only one I would differ on is doing away with the 1st Div.
All that would do is make the difference in standard between the Premier div & the next level far greater than it is at present.
At the moment the difference in standard between the Premier Div & the various Senior Leagues is huge.
That is a problem similar to what we have at present with players from the Under 19 League unable to make the step up.

Have a Premier Div.
Two 1st Div's, North & South.
!st Div North fed by Connacht & Ulster Senior Leagues.
1st Div South fed by Leinster & Munster Seniors Leagues.
The local Senior Leagues fed by the various local Junior Divisions.

Yes there will be problems with the above but they can be overcome with some joined up thinking.
The main thing is that all the various leagues around the country must talk to each other for the overall benefit of Irish football.
Of course that's never going to happen, at least in my lifetime so the above ideas will remain just that, ideas :rolleyes:

[pineapple stu]

I'd argue the opposite tbh.

If the national team hit a wall, far from cajoling the FAI to divert their gaze to the league instead all it would do would be to :

a) See them focus and obsess even more on the senior men's international team, as that is where the organisation's psychological and financial interests lie.

b) Result in less money within the FAI, which would reduce the opportunity of decent prize money in the LOI even further.

I would argue that a financially flush FAI represents the best chance of proper investment in the league, and that the only way to get that is through international success - not failure.

You're then in a Catch 22 I think. A financially flush FAI - with a decent national team, by definition - can dismiss the LoI. A broke FAI with a poor national team needs the LoI to deliver players, but as you say, can't afford to invest. We're very much going towards the second outcome, as some of the charts in the PCA report show.

[pineapple stu]

Only one I would differ on is doing away with the 1st Div.
All that would do is make the difference in standard between the Premier div & the next level far greater than it is at present.
At the moment the difference in standard between the Premier Div & the various Senior Leagues is huge.
Yeah, that's entirely fair. I don't think either solution is ideal - you'll struggle to find teams for your FD North/South because they'll all identify as LSL/MSL teams. It's tricky either way.

I'm happy to accept Dundalk 6-0 Tralee/Cobh/whoever on the grounds that bringing in new clubs is a medium-term project which would benefit football across the country. Teams pushing each other to improve, more clubs developing players for the national team, etc.

Sadly, I also agree with your pessimism around it ever happening...

[EatYerGreens]

There must be something in a strategy of embarassing the national psyche with how sh!t our football teams and facilities are compared to other nations that we would consider ourselves to be 'better' than.

With the financial crash fading into memory and the Irish economy booming again, we're back to attracting lots of economic migrants and a general belief that we're a pretty successful little place again. Our club football is one of the few consistent non-economic comparitors we have on the international stage (that and Eurovision, which no-one wants to win any more anyway). So the question is - how do we use the state of it to embarass the country into thinking we really should be doing a lot better than we are (and thereby creating pressure on politicians and particularly the FAI, as guardians of something that people will think we're failing on) ? Delaney won't want to be the head of something that is seen as a source of embarrassment for a prospering Ireland.

[pineapple stu]

I think we're headed for another crash again soon tbh, but that's a matter for another thread!

Though in that case, the crisis is that we lose 2 or 3 clubs entirely and suddenly don't have a national league with a second flight, as UEFA I think require.

[David BOHie]

The problem with a pyramid structure in Ireland is that we are not populated enough nor have we enough heavily populated areas to have a pyramid structure. Suppose Rugby had a pyramid system, do you think Cork Con or Blackrock or Marys or CY would ever reach the levels of best in Europe/The world arguably? Not a hope.
What support would they have? Would people from outside of Blackrock identify with a Blackrock team? Absolutely not. So what Rugby did on the conversion to professional from amateur was to go to broader areas such as provinces. That way you could have big teams in existence that could compete at the top.

I know Munster and Leinster already played matches but it was them that went professional, not Cork Con or Marys. I'm not saying we need to go to a provincial system or a system where we merge clubs to create "Dublin FC" or "Louth FC" or anything like it. That would never work.

So fair enough, Athlone don't really add much to the league at present. So the winners of the LSL Premier division gets promoted. So that's St Mochta's based on a quick google search. What would Mochta's bring to the league? They're another Dublin team and they'd be competing with establish LOI clubs with players and new supporters.

So suppose the next year Wexford get relegated and the top team gets promoted. (So let's assume the team that finished second last year then wins it the following year) and now you have Bluebell too. Another South Dublin team. So the Dublin teams within two years would be Bohs, Rovers, Shels, UCD, Cabo, Pats, Mochtas and Bluebell. That's hardly sustainable and it is what will happen with a pyramid system. The heights Dublin teams reach will be limited and ultimately, all jokes aside, that's a bad thing for the league.

So suppose a munster team get relegated, Cobh, and the team that wins it Tralee Dynamos. Great, a Kerry team. But now we go back to the first paragraph. We've essentially a Blackrock or a Cork Con and Tralee won't offer a whole bunch more than Cobh. But suppose we made a Kerry team, which is what is the case in the underage leagues as well as a Mayo team and a Cavan-Monaghan team, then all of a sudden you might have a whole county behind you. Let's say Westport get promoted for Galway for some bizarre reason. Will Westport add anything to the league?

Let's say Westport get 1% of population of Westport at their games. That's 60 people. Suppose Mayo FC can get 1% of the county to go that's 1,300.


Similar let's look at Killarney. Killarney has a population of 14,000, Kerry has a population of 140,000. So I think going for the wider team name opens up potential for much more support.

If Bohs we called Phibsboro or Pat's called Inchicore they'd both be in the LSL. At least here we can try get a few thousand through the gates.

The way forward is to create county-wide teams starting at underage level (13s maybe) then give it a year and you have a 15s team and do that all the way up until you have a senior team with a presence in the community, where the kids in the county grow up wanting to be good enough to make the their LOI team (which has the county's name for new clubs)

Carlow/Kilkenny, Kerry, Mayo and Monaghan/Cavan are currently the teams in the LOI underage leagues without a senior team and you'd think Carlow and Kilkenny could possibly be explored by themselves and not with each other so that would be five county wide teams which would be fantastic to see added to the league. Given time, a Clare, Tipp and maybe Kildare team should be given a good go at underage levels too

[pineapple stu]

But literally every other country in Europe has a pyramid structure. Here's the Georgian structure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Georgia_(country)) - population 3.7m; five levels. Here's the Estonian structure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Estonia) - population 1.3m; six levels. Here's the Luxembourg structure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Luxembourg) - population 600k; five levels. Here's the Icelandic structure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Iceland) - population 300k; five levels.

Every country in Europe has a clear path from the bottom to the top. Except us. And as we're talking about the LoI being a basketcase, it's fairly clear ours isn't a model to follow...

Population and so forth is irrelevant. If a town is too small, the local club will stay in the lower leagues. If a club has ambition, they'll rise through the leagues, hopefully generating interest as they go. If they reach a plateau, fine - but the FAI must give them reasons for ambition.

If their ground is a pitch with a bit of rope, they don't meet licencing and promotion is denied. You ask what St Mochta's would bring to the league - but what do Athlone bring to the league in their current state? Why deny St Mochta's a chance to show what they could bring to the league?

If the league becomes stronger, but more Dublin-based - so what?

This happens in literally every country in Europe. Except one...

It's far a better model than picking a region, dumping them in the First Division, and hoping they'll somehow take off (Dublin City, Kildare County, Wexford Youths, etc, etc, etc)

[Real ale Madrid]

Is there an appetite within the LSL and MSL teams to have a pyramid structure?

[Eminence Grise]

The fundamental problem of the league is governance at national and club level.

Tinkering with pyramids, summer/winter seasons, reducing entry fees, increasing prize money and whatnot addresses symptoms not the disease. The FAI – or a new authority of FAI, clubs and other relevant stakeholders – needs to have powers and sanctions, not just over clubs but over those who own and run them. The FAI must come down like a ton of bricks on chancers who run clubs into the ground. Fines for directors, bans from all football activity, dodgy licence applications accepted only when directors lodge personal funds in advance to cover any possible issues – otherwise back to the drawing board or drop a division. Black and white rules. And clubs should have to accept an FAI nominee from outside football as a non-executive director, acting in much the same capacity as public interest directors appointed by government.

Why start with this? Well, good governance gives a degree of certainty.

It’s hard to attract and retain the talent to help the league develop if word circulates that players might not get paid regularly if at all. Limerick and Bray have damaged every club’s reputation by association this season.

It’s hard to attract new clubs if the feeling prevails that the league makes up the rules as it goes along, and your club could be stitched up or made up depending on who’s in charge. Tralee Dynamos, the Galway DVD, the Athlone betting saga are cases in point.

And finally, having admitted to the larceny of lecturing in PR a few times here over the years, I would categorically advise potential sponsors to avoid the league and any clubs bar a handful. If the sponsored party has a dodgy reputation, it only gets the low revenue it deserves, and even then there’s little to gain for a sponsor – which is why so many sponsorships are more to do with local goodwill than real commercial value, and the national deal is relatively chickenfeed for the market penetration and media coverage secured.

Good governance leads to being trustworthy and respected. That through a series of turns leads to increased revenue and stability.

There’s more but what’s the point? Nobody ****ing listens in the FAI.

[pineapple stu]

Is there an appetite within the LSL and MSL teams to have a pyramid structure?
In the current set-up, I'd put it on a par with Ian Paisley wanting a United Ireland.

Could the clubs be incentivised to step up? You'd have to hope so, I think. Not all of them, for sure, but if you had ten teams between the provinces who could make a decent stab at a Premier set-up - with proper supports, prize money, etc - the league would be a hell of a lot better for it.



The fundamental problem of the league is governance at national and club level.

Tinkering with pyramids, summer/winter seasons, reducing entry fees, increasing prize money and whatnot addresses symptoms not the disease. The FAI – or a new authority of FAI, clubs and other relevant stakeholders – needs to have powers and sanctions, not just over clubs but over those who own and run them. The FAI must come down like a ton of bricks on chancers who run clubs into the ground. Fines for directors, bans from all football activity, dodgy licence applications accepted only when directors lodge personal funds in advance to cover any possible issues – otherwise back to the drawing board or drop a division. Black and white rules. And clubs should have to accept an FAI nominee from outside football as a non-executive director, acting in much the same capacity as public interest directors appointed by government.
I'd agree with all of that, except to note that by giving extra prize money, by creating a pyramid, by generating interest among new clubs - by doing all this, you're giving the FAI extra powers to punish errant clubs. So in Bray's case - drop them back to the fourth tier. Let someone competent up. Happens all the time across Europe. It won't rid the league of dodgily-run clubs, but at least it'd help mitigate against it to some extent. How many clubs have we seen in the past decade going bankrupt and starting in the First Division - just one division below where they were or, worse, the exact same place they were? Daft stuff.

[Eminence Grise]

I completely agree with the pyramid as an eventual model, and dropping several tiers is proper regulation and punishment, but it's one season of jaw-jaw, one of framing the process, and one more at least to get clubs ready before it can come in, starting today. In the meantime let's start by making life hard for directors so that they have to get their houses in order so the pyramid starts with a clean base and good governance is the norm not the exception.

[pineapple stu]

Yep, agree completely with that. I think the PCA document talks about a 5-year timeline for example.

The question then is how do you punish a club that has nothing, is presumably perilously near the edge both financially and volunteer-wise, that the FAI can't afford to lose? I don't know what the answer to that is; that's why I think the current sanctions are actually reasonable.

There's surely only so many investor mates Fran Gavin has.

[Eminence Grise]

Until a pyramid comes in? Suspended relegation. Let's say the 2023 season is when the tier becomes operational. A club receives the sanction in 2019, and knows that unless it meets designated criteria every year thereafter it will be relegated to Tier 4 in 2023. The further down the line a suspended relegation is handed out the less time a club has to turn things around - which is motivation enough for early, consistent good governance to become ingrained. Two sanctions, though, and relegation becomes automatic - even if the club won the 2022 league.

Punishment now? Like I've been saying, go after the directors not the club. Banning them from all football activity (there must be something in the rule book about bringing the game into disrepute or something similarly broad) allows for their speedy removal and a new board to come in who the FAI then work with to resolve the issues.

Short term there needs to be changes to the rule book allowing the FAI to appoint an interim board of independent directors or a commissioner who then run the club independent of all outside interference. But above all stop accepting BS licencing applications.

[disgruntled]

Is there an appetite within the LSL and MSL teams to have a pyramid structure?

The Munster Senior League themselves would never go for it & that's controlled by the Munster Senior League clubs themselves. So I guess that's a no :o
I'm sure other regional association clubs might have a similar opinion ?

In an attempt to give players to old for under 19's a game Cork City applied for membership of the Munster Senior League a few years ago.
Even though City fulfilled all the criteria for membership their application was refused on the grounds that it would be unfair to the other teams.
They appealed the decision. The appeal was heard by the same people who refused their application in the first place.
They could have appealed to the Munster Football Association but that appeal would have also been heard by the same people.
In the end City just gave up on the idea because it was obvious that no matter what they did they would never be accepted.



Though in that case, the crisis is that we lose 2 or 3 clubs entirely and suddenly don't have a national league with a second flight, as UEFA I think require.

I thought that as well until I asked someone who I would expect would know the facts. He assured me that we didn't need a second division.
What we needed was a league that wasn't closed to new entrants.
I'm still not convinced but I haven't been able to find the relevant information anywhere.
Perhaps someone else can come up with it ?

[pineapple stu]

The Munster Senior League themselves would never go for it & that's controlled by the Munster Senior League clubs themselves. So I guess that's a no :o
I'm sure other regional association clubs might have a similar opinion ?
Quite probably alright. So it's the FAI's task to bring them around, by hook or by crook. It's not an easy task, but governing the game in its overall best interests is what they're paid to do.


I thought that as well until I asked someone who I would expect would know the facts. He assured me that we didn't need a second division.
What we needed was a league that wasn't closed to new entrants.
I'm still not convinced but I haven't been able to find the relevant information anywhere.
Perhaps someone else can come up with it ?
That's interesting - it could very well be a foot.ie truism! Possibly the UEFA statues (https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/General/02/56/20/45/2562045_DOWNLOAD.pdf) (pdf download) would be the place to start, but they make no mention of such a requirement.

It is a UEFA requirement (https://footballgibraltar.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/premier-division-to-expand-to-eight-teams-for-201314-season/) that the top flight must contain a minimum of seven teams apparently - but whether we could have a top flight of 7 and a second tier of 5, I don't know.

That said, two divisions of eight teams should obviously spell crisis for the FAI.

[The Donie Forde]

That's the kind of 'big-picture' ambitious thinking our league could desperately do with more of.

One 50-seater bus would cost somewhere in the region of €400-500k? [guessing]
Great idea, if the FAI had a spare €8-10 million lying around. And even if they had, they wouldn't be buying buses for LOI clubs.

The two main problems with creating a sustainable/professional league are population and the GAA, and not in that order.