Fixtures 9th - 12th March

[sbgawa]

Ah EZ come on if anyone including me throws out a reference to Rovers your in like Flynn, it used to bother me but now I just expect it.
You do seem strangely interested in Bradser , I'd say in his second full season as a manager he is putting a decent stamp on the team and what the non Rovers fans don't see is the work he does in the Academy with the kids and that is where the long term future of the club is.
Even St Stephen Kenny took a few years to win a trophy.

You could be right it could be the same two teams again but having seen Cork and Dundalk I think Cork look the stronger team having said that its only one match each.

[El-Pietro]

sgbawa is constantly trying to shut down any discussion on here regarding his beloved Rovers and Bradley. If you mention either you are obsessed. Its tiresome. Its a discussion forum, people come here to discuss LOI topics other than just those about thier own clubs.

[sbgawa]

Tiresome is the lack of actual debate rather than just negative abuse, I enjoy discussion, hence my comments above about short time in the job and the work he does around the club to try to explain to non rovers fans why he gets the support he does. He's also on a budget that is less than either Cork or Dundalk..

I'd actually love a constructive debate , above I said I thought Cork looked the stronger of last years top two, what was your opinion of Rovers on Monday compared to our last trip to Cork?
I thought Sadlier was the best player for you guys on the pitch by a mile, what did you think of Kavanagh or Car?

[El-Pietro]

Thought you were very poor. Said as much earlier in the thread. i think Bradley is holding back an otherwise talented squad.

[sbgawa]

I thought we were the better team in the first half and looked the likelier to score (the Irish Times agreed with me so its not just my blinkers :) ) , you guys were far better in the second half and gave us a lot more trouble than Dundalk hence my thinking that you are looking stronger of last years top two.
I don't agree with you on Bradser holding us back but I've seen all of our matches and our performance in Cork particularly in second half was weak compared to other games.
Not sure I could agree with calling us very poor, we lost 1 nil away from home to the Champions to a penalty compared to a 4-1 loss last year but that's my perspective.

[Asterix]

We were the better team up to the peno, which came from corks second attack of the night. Cork started the second half better and got a chance or two from us being sloppy at the back. Not many chances for either team in the game.All the teams at the top will drop a good few points this year.

[El-Pietro]

I would argue it was poor finishing on our part that kept it to 1-0. 3 or 4-0 could have easily happened on another night.
McNamee and Sadlier had very good games and created loads for our attackers.
Cummins didn't get much shrift from the ref either as he had centre halves hanging off him all night but we still did enough to win.

As for Bradley, I don't think hes a very good manager. Hes lost 20 of 55 league games since taking over from Fenlon. Caulfield has lost 20 of 137 games. We lost just 5 games in his first season and have never lost more than 5 in a season under him. When he took us over we had just finished 6th for the second straight season and were going nowhere. I don't think hes taken you forward which I think we have seen from Caufield and Kenny and even Shields at Derry under difficult circumstances.

Since 2014 these are Rovers points tallies. 62,58,62,54. The gap to the league winners in that same span is 12, 20, 15, 22. You were 15 off Dundalk last year. You aren't getting closer to the top two despite Bradleys comments that he thinks you are. Maybe this year is different, the table is still forming but as has been pointed out you are level on points with Limerick, and have taken just 1 point from your two games with the top two teams.

But e keep hearing about this youth project in Tallaght, its ok for Rovers to fall short while they develop players. Admirable I guess. Lets look at Mondays teams:



McNulty
37


McCarthy
19


Barry
25


McLoughlin
21


Griffin
23


McCormack
27


Morrissey
26


Sadlier
23


McNamee
26


Sheppard
27


Cummins
30






Horgan
21


O'Brien
32


Grace
25


Gilchrist
23


Byrne
24


Bone
19


Miele
23


Finn
30


Burke
24


Kavanagh
24


Carr
24



Both field the same amount of teenagers. Cork Citys Average Age is 25.8. Shamrock Rovers is 24.45. We have the edge in experience but take Nults out and our average falls to just 24.7. Who are these players ye are developing? Kevin Horgan certainly isn't one of them. We both have four players under 24 Perhaps thats an arbitrary point, and you have a lot of 24 year olds who in a year or two will be the core of a good side potentially, but by the time that happens Dundlk and Cork City will have continued to replenish our squads from youth/externally. Regardless I don't see this as a UCD level of development which is what the media wants us to believe. Maybe its all about Aaron Bolger? Hes played 26 minutes this season in a 6-0 win over Bray so hes not exactly holding the team back with his development.
Caulfield has undoubtedly developed Sean Maguire, Kevin O'Connor and Brian Lenihan, takingthree unheralded players and turning them into some of the best players in the league. Maguire may have been a star at Waterford but that was a long time previous and many had given up on him. You could also argue he turned Gearoid Morrissey into one of the best players in the league. Twice. Has made Karl Sheppard the most effective wide player in the league. Took a clumsy Mark McNulty and turned him into arguably the best keeper in the league (though we credit Biscuits for that).
Kenny has taken a series of underrated/unheraled players and turned them into the best players in the country.

So Bradley isn't improving Rovers in the league, or against the best teams, or even winning cups and so far we haven't really seen him take a player and improve them (Miele was massively rated a couple of years ago and now everyone has sort of forgotten about him) so what exactly is it that makes Rovers fans think hes doing a good job?

I don't understand what Bradleys success are and I don't understand how Bradley isn't under pressure to deliver more given the fact that the top clubs most likely have relatively comparable resources available, perhaps with Dundalk having the edge through Europe/Investment but I hope he remains in charge for a long time.

[micls]

We were the better team up to the peno, which came from corks second attack of the night. Cork started the second half better and got a chance or two from us being sloppy at the back. Not many chances for either team in the game.All the teams at the top will drop a good few points this year.

We had at least 3 absolutely clear cut chances that were disappointing not to be scored, from Cummins and McNamee. Few half chances outside that.

I was surprised at how little rovers offered in attack against a very inexperienced back line. I was convinced yed score a few but the likes of Burke Miele and Carr offered very little.

I expected rovers to be stronger than they were, but I do think ye're a stronger team than last year overall. Our finishing was disappointing, but after a nervy first half hour it was a good performance.

[sbgawa]

We are def stronger but didn't produce enough on Monday, that being said kavanagh was unlucky not to score and Luke hit the bar amongst other chances. Asterix is right points will be dropped this year by all to a greater extent than last year.

[Ezeikial]

Tiresome is the lack of actual debate rather than just negative abuse, I enjoy discussion, hence my comments above about short time in the job and the work he does around the club to try to explain to non rovers fans why he gets the support he does. He's also on a budget that is less than either Cork or Dundalk..

I'd actually love a constructive debate , above I said I thought Cork looked the stronger of last years top two, what was your opinion of Rovers on Monday compared to our last trip to Cork?
I thought Sadlier was the best player for you guys on the pitch by a mile, what did you think of Kavanagh or Car?

It’s very welcome if you are willing to move with a discussion away from accusations of obsession, bitterness, jealousy and other barbs

On the Stephen Bradley subject, the truth is that it is hard to ignore him as a fascinating League of Ireland personality. He is the manager of the largest League of Ireland club in Dublin, and consequently is guaranteed a captive audience from the Dublin-centric sports journos. But he just can't help himself with some of his bizarre comments - he is like a moth to a flame in terms of what he has to say and leaves himself open to ridicule. Many Rovers fans I have spoken to would prefer if he could learn to be more measured in what he says. If he is learning in this regard, it seems to be very slowly.

My personal belief is that he is tactically naïve and is directly responsible for much of the indiscipline that has attracted so many red cards last season.

While you mention the Academy and imply that this is critical to the future well-being of the club – the reality is that there is no guarantee of success or a return on investment here. Irrespective of that, winning an under 13 cup or under 15 league will be of little use to Bradley’s long-term job security, unless he makes it happen at senior level.

In 2015 Rovers finished with 65 points and 12 points off the league winners – In 2016 Bradley led Rovers to 55 points and a whopping 22 points off the top. If 2017 was his first full season, Bradley failed to narrow the gap to the top and actually gathered less points than in either of the previous season.

Any comparison with Stephen Kenny is way off the mark – he took Dundalk to 2nd place in his first season on a shoestring budget and then won the first of 3 in a row in his second season. John Caulfield is another interesting contrast – where he took Cork from nowhere to league challengers before capturing the cup and then league & cup.

With the talent available in the squad, Rovers should be serious challengers for the title this season. In my opinion Stephen Bradley is the main reason why this challenge is unlikely to transpire

[micls]

I'm agreeing with Ezeikial. It feels wrong.

[sbgawa]

It’s very welcome if you are willing to move with a discussion away from accusations of obsession, bitterness, jealousy and other barbs

On the Stephen Bradley subject, the truth is that it is hard to ignore him as a fascinating League of Ireland personality. He is the manager of the largest League of Ireland club in Dublin, and consequently is guaranteed a captive audience from the Dublin-centric sports journos. But he just can't help himself with some of his bizarre comments - he is like a moth to a flame in terms of what he has to say and leaves himself open to ridicule. Many Rovers fans I have spoken to would prefer if he could learn to be more measured in what he says. If he is learning in this regard, it seems to be very slowly.

My personal belief is that he is tactically naïve and is directly responsible for much of the indiscipline that has attracted so many red cards last season.

While you mention the Academy and imply that this is critical to the future well-being of the club – the reality is that there is no guarantee of success or a return on investment here. Irrespective of that, winning an under 13 cup or under 15 league will be of little use to Bradley’s long-term job security, unless he makes it happen at senior level.

In 2015 Rovers finished with 65 points and 12 points off the league winners – In 2016 Bradley led Rovers to 55 points and a whopping 22 points off the top. If 2017 was his first full season, Bradley failed to narrow the gap to the top and actually gathered less points than in either of the previous season.

Any comparison with Stephen Kenny is way off the mark – he took Dundalk to 2nd place in his first season on a shoestring budget and then won the first of 3 in a row in his second season. John Caulfield is another interesting contrast – where he took Cork from nowhere to league challengers before capturing the cup and then league & cup.

With the talent available in the squad, Rovers should be serious challengers for the title this season. In my opinion Stephen Bradley is the main reason why this challenge is unlikely to transpire

the whole Bradley quotes thing you constantly bang on about is overdone, part of the problem of being as you say the biggest club in Dublin with journalists hanging on his every word is that they need to make headlines...he is hardly Roddy Collins or even Kenny Sheils + even your beloved Stephen Kenny is capable of massive gaffs ...please give us a penalty,,,,Karl Sheppard are two that spring to mind.

The points per season you talk about are facts but this is his second full season Stephen Kenny may have won the league in his second season with Dundalk but that was his 17th season as a LOI manager lets compare apples with apples.

I sincerely hope that Dundalk as a club do not believe there is no point in investing in young players as there is "no guarantee of a return on investment" as it would be a shocking indictment and not great news for young players in the North East Rovers believe in investing in young players and as a supporter I believe in this too.

You were saying the same things about Bradley last year in his first full year as a manager , if you can't see how ridiculous that is I can't help you but lets stop pretending you are prepared to be objective unless anyone thinks his fiirst full year is enough to judge a manager on

[Ezeikial]

Tiresome is the lack of actual debate rather than just negative abuse, I enjoy discussion, hence my comments above about short time in the job and the work he does around the club to try to explain to non rovers fans why he gets the support he does. He's also on a budget that is less than either Cork or Dundalk..

I'd actually love a constructive debate , above I said I thought Cork looked the stronger of last years top two, what was your opinion of Rovers on Monday compared to our last trip to Cork?
I thought Sadlier was the best player for you guys on the pitch by a mile, what did you think of Kavanagh or Car?

Come on sbgawa - you claim that you would like constructive debate without negative abuse and then you pepper your post with prods and whataboutery.



the whole Bradley quotes thing you constantly bang on about is overdone, part of the problem of being as you say the biggest club in Dublin with journalists hanging on his every word is that they need to make headlines...he is hardly Roddy Collins or even Kenny Sheils + even your beloved Stephen Kenny is capable of massive gaffs ...please give us a penalty,,,,Karl Sheppard are two that spring to mind.

The points per season you talk about are facts but this is his second full season Stephen Kenny may have won the league in his second season with Dundalk but that was his 17th season as a LOI manager lets compare apples with apples.

I sincerely hope that Dundalk as a club do not believe there is no point in investing in young players as there is "no guarantee of a return on investment" as it would be a shocking indictment and not great news for young players in the North East Rovers believe in investing in young players and as a supporter I believe in this too.


Whataboutery -
#1 - Whether Stephen Kenny or Kenny Shiels speak well or poorly is hardly relevant to the question raised about Stephen Bradley
#2 - The attitude of Dundalk FC on ROI on youth investment is somewhat moot and your "shocking indictment" statement is totally hypothetical. I presume you also realise that I do not represent the views of Dundalk FC? Nor have I even offered an opinion on this as regards the club I support!



You were saying the same things about Bradley last year in his first full year as a manager , if you can't see how ridiculous that is I can't help you but lets stop pretending you are prepared to be objective.

I have had doubts about Bradley's coaching and management ability from an early stage, but his comments have been consistently entertaining since he was appointed.

I am not sure how you can suggest that me being consistent in my views is in some way ridiculous. I don't pretend to be impartial or objective, but my views on Bradley are genuine. I am a passionate fan of my local football club and being detached or non-partisan does not come easily to me. Pretty much like most LoI fans!

[sbgawa]

Ok
We agree that kennys poor media performance is not relevant to Bradley's.
You agree you are not objective, fair enough but instead are a "passionate " loi fan.....this doesn't prevent you having a sensible view on things by the way...

I'm relieved you don't represent dundalk views on investment in youth as I would expect the biggest club in the north east to have an interest in the youth in the north east.
Glad we cleared all that up I won't waste my time arguing anymore with someone who's not capable of objective reasoning

[El-Pietro]

Caufield took a team that finished 6th two years in a row to second in his first loi. Bradley isn't even in the same league
If Rovers believe in young players where are they? They haven't been playing much this season. I addressed that in my last post.

[sbgawa]

Didn't realise giving a guy a couple of years as a manager would be so controversial. Maybe I'm wrong but obviously bradser should have won the league in his first full year in charge. Sounds reasonable.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Maybe this year is different, the table is still forming but as has been pointed out you are level on points with Limerick, and have taken just 1 point from your two games with the top two teams.
It has also been pointed out that the draw was while missing 3 players considered among the best in the league, and the loss was away to the defending champions. Hardly comparable to limericks results.


But e keep hearing about this youth project in Tallaght, its ok for Rovers to fall short while they develop players. Admirable I guess.
It's not, its understandable to make slower progress than normally expected, not to fall short, big difference between the two.


Both field the same amount of teenagers. Cork Citys Average Age is 25.8. Shamrock Rovers is 24.45. We have the edge in experience but take Nults out and our average falls to just 24.7.
Lets compare apples with apples here, take out O'Brien and Rovers average drops to 23.7. Matchday teams change weekly anyway, lets compare squads:
Rovers: 23.9
Cork: 25.2
Dundalk: 25.48
So over a year in difference between Rovers and the other two.


Who are these players ye are developing?
Bone, Bolger, Clarke, Boyd, Dillon, Dobbs who's out on loan, plus Horgan who doesn't count for some reason have all played underage for the club. If caufield "undoubtedly" developed Maguire then the likes of Horgan, Miele and Burke definitely count too


by the time that happens Dundlk and Cork City will have continued to replenish our squads from youth/externally.
Can you actually name the last Dundalk player to go from being on an underage team to being a first team regular? No doubt cork have developed players but Dundalk haven't brought through a player to be a regular in years.


Regardless I don't see this as a UCD level of development which is what the media wants us to believe. Maybe its all about Aaron Bolger? Hes played 26 minutes this season in a 6-0 win over Bray so hes not exactly holding the team back with his development.
The youth push has only really been going the last 2/3 years, youth academys dont give an immediate return, i thought that was obvious but clearly not.


So Bradley isn't improving Rovers in the league, or against the best teams, or even winning cups and so far we haven't really seen him take a player and improve them (Miele was massively rated a couple of years ago and now everyone has sort of forgotten about him) so what exactly is it that makes Rovers fans think hes doing a good job? First round last season Rovers lost to both Dundalk and Cork, second round we beat Dundalk, lost to Cork, third round we beat Dundalk and Cork, but no improvement there clearly. Rovers fans still think Mieles brilliant he's just changed his game slightly so stands out a bit less and isn't flavour of the month anymore for reporters


I don't understand what Bradleys success are and I don't understand how Bradley isn't under pressure to deliver more given the fact that the top clubs most likely have relatively comparable resources available, perhaps with Dundalk having the edge through Europe/Investment but I hope he remains in charge for a long time.
Bradley's success is were actually playing exciting football more often than before and the players actually give a **** now and it shows, thats what gets fans on board too, not just scraping boring 1-0's every week.

[Nesta99]

Cant be that easy for Bradley to have similar aged coaches with the profile of Duff and McPhail at the club. They may get on well as individuals but surely some of the brass in Tallaght are already thinking of the additional profile that these coaches could offer as first team coach especially when there is no obvious development to the current team. Another few poor results....

[bennocelt]

I have had doubts about Bradley's coaching and management ability from an early stage, but his comments have been consistently entertaining since he was appointed.

I am not sure how you can suggest that me being consistent in my views is in some way ridiculous. I don't pretend to be impartial or objective, but my views on Bradley are genuine. I am a passionate fan of my local football club and being detached or non-partisan does not come easily to me. Pretty much like most LoI fans!


Me too, the man is a clown. I do wonder that a lot of Shamrock Rovers fans have bought into this youth development thing that they cant admit they are wrong about Bradley. They will be wrong when he gets the boot at the end of the season for sure, and as a betting man Id love to wager on that!

Think there should be a poll on this, who thinks he is really doing a great job. I would hazard a guess that its only shamrock rovers fans who think he is.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Cant be that easy for Bradley to have similar aged coaches with the profile of Duff and McPhail at the club. They may get on well as individuals but surely some of the brass in Tallaght are already thinking of the additional profile that these coaches could offer as first team coach especially when there is no obvious development to the current team. Another few poor results....

Mcphail is Director of Football and Duffer is U15's coach and they have those jobs instead of being manager of the first team for pretty obvious reasons.

[Ezeikial]

Since 2014 these are Rovers points tallies. 62,58,62,54. The gap to the league winners in that same span is 12, 20, 15, 22. You were 15 off Dundalk last year. You aren't getting closer to the top two despite Bradleys comments that he thinks you are.

I think the points gained by Rovers over those years are actually worse that you outlined

2014 - 62 (12 points off the Champions)
2015 - 65 (13 points off the Champions)
2016 - 55 (22 points off the Champions)
2017 - 54 (22 points off the Champions)

The decline in results since Bradley took over is pretty clear.

[Ezeikial]

Ok
We agree that kennys poor media performance is not relevant to Bradley's.
You agree you are not objective, fair enough but instead are a "passionate " loi fan.....this doesn't prevent you having a sensible view on things by the way...

I'm relieved you don't represent dundalk views on investment in youth as I would expect the biggest club in the north east to have an interest in the youth in the north east.
Glad we cleared all that up I won't waste my time arguing anymore with someone who's not capable of objective reasoning

It's pretty clear you are not interested in "constructive debate" as you claimed.

[Ezeikial]

Didn't realise giving a guy a couple of years as a manager would be so controversial. Maybe I'm wrong but obviously bradser should have won the league in his first full year in charge. Sounds reasonable.

You really don't get it - it is not at all controversial; most non-Rovers supporters appear to be pleased because of his limitations as a manager/coach and his farcical interviews. A new long term contract for Bradser would actually be excellent news.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I think the points gained by Rovers over those years are actually worse that you outlined

2014 - 62 (12 points off the Champions)
2015 - 65 (13 points off the Champions)
2016 - 55 (22 points off the Champions)
2017 - 54 (22 points off the Champions)

The decline in results since Bradley took over is pretty clear.

Kidding me right? What an idiotic statement. He's had one season, literally impossible for there to be a decline in points totals under him and as for actual results there has been a marked improvement under his reign, but lets not let the facts get in the way, never stopped you before why start now?

[Ezeikial]

Kidding me right? What an idiotic statement. He's had one season, literally impossible for there to be a decline in points totals under him and as for actual results there has been a marked improvement under his reign, but lets not let the facts get in the way, never stopped you before why start now?

He was appointed as caretaker manager in July 2016. That season Rovers finished 10 points worse off than the previous season, with Fenlons team

He was appointed permanently in November of that year and set about building his own squad. In his first full season in charge Rovers finished 11 points worse off than 2015 or 1 point worse off than 2016. If there is something factually incorrect there, by all means point it out.

It is too early to reach any conclusion yet this season, but the early signs are not promising

[RathfarnhamHoop]

He was appointed as caretaker manager in July 2016. That season Rovers finished 10 points worse off than the previous season, with Fenlons team

He was appointed permanently in November of that year and set about building his own squad. In his first full season in charge Rovers finished 11 points worse off than 2015 or 1 point worse off than 2016. If there is something factually incorrect there, by all means point it out.

It is too early to reach any conclusion yet this season, but the early signs are not promising

The facts are you used points from before he was in charge to show a decline under him, that is wrong. He was a caretaker with no transfer window, final position pretty much decided, hardly a season you can judge him on. Then he has had one season so far where there was a clear improvement as the season went on, It is impossible for there to be a decline in a data set of 1, end of.

Early signs? So beating Derry 6-1, drawing with Dundalk while missing 3 key players, and only narrowly losing to the champions are not promising? Coming from the supporter of the club who drew 0-0 with Bray?

[Ezeikial]

The facts are you used points from before he was in charge to show a decline under him, that is wrong. He was a caretaker with no transfer window, final position pretty much decided, hardly a season you can judge him on. Then he has had one season so far where there was a clear improvement as the season went on, It is impossible for there to be a decline in a data set of 1, end of.



Actually I responded to correct El-Pietro points totals which included 2014.

If you take 2015 as a starting point, 2016 shows a decline in points won and 2017 shows a further decline. If you want to focus on 2017 only (not unreasonable) there was clearly no improvement in overall results - Rovers again finished 22 points off the champions and got 54 points compared with 55 points the previous season.



Early signs? So beating Derry 6-1, drawing with Dundalk while missing 3 key players, and only narrowly losing to the champions are not promising? Coming from the supporter of the club who drew 0-0 with Bray?

More whataboutery - but for what it is worth, I agree that the Dundalk draws with Bray, Rovers and St Pats were poor and well below expectations.

Are you happy with Rovers start to the season?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Actually I responded to correct El-Pietro points totals which included 2014.

If you take 2015 as a starting point, 2016 shows a decline in points won and 2017 shows a further decline. If you want to focus on 2017 only (not unreasonable) there was clearly no improvement in overall results - Rovers again finished 22 points off the champions and got 54 points compared with 55 points the previous season.



More whataboutery - but for what it is worth, I agree that the Dundalk draws with Bray, Rovers and St Pats were poor and well below expectations.

Are you happy with Rovers start to the season?
you used those results to then say "The decline in results since Bradley took over is pretty clear." which you cant do as he's only responsible for the last points total. In his only season Rovers round one was 4:1:6 round two 7:1:3 round 3 6:1:4 so once the team gelled the was a marked improvement in results under Bradley.
Happy? no. Satisfied? yes. The loss to Bohs was disappointing but it was a derby and all bets go out the window for them, the draw to Dundalk considering who was missing was good, the Bray result was expected but the performance in getting it was good, the Derry result was brilliant, the Cork result was disappointing but they're the champions for a reason so a 1-0 loss in their back garden isn't something to get upset about.

[sbgawa]

RH we are arguing with someone who wrote a manager off in his first season , thinks investing in youth is a questionable decision and admits he is not objective and best of all suggests a manager isn't improving a team by putting up points totals for 4 seasons of which the manager was in charge for 1 full season .....at some point you have to stop banging your head off the same wall :) .

[Ezeikial]

Last attempt at an objective analysis of statistical facts in a 3 part Q & A -


Q. Did Bradley improve the Rovers results during his time as Caretaker Manager from July 2016?

A. No
Up to Pat Fenlon getting sacked, Rovers league record for the 2016 season was Played 16, Won 9, Drew 2, Lost 5, Points 29. Bradley was in charge for 17 league games - Played 17, Won 7, Drew 5, Lost 5, Points 26. Rovers were also knocked out at home in both major cup competitions: 3-1 by St Pats in the EA Cup and 5-0 by Cork in the FAI Cup under Bradley’s guidance

Summary of league points acheived in 2016
Fenlon achieved 1.81 points per game
Bradley achieved 1.53 points per game

Q Did Bradley improve the Rovers league results compared to previous seasons, after assembling his own squad for the 2017 season?

A No.
Although the level of decline in results depends on what you choose to measure it against

2015 - 33-18-11-04-65 (Played-Won-Drew-Lost-Points) – Fenlon as manager
2016 - 33-16-07-10-55 (Played-Won-Drew-Lost-Points) – Fenlon 16 matches, Bradley 17 matches
2017 - 33-17-03-13-54 (Played-Won-Drew-Lost-Points) – Bradley as manager

Average points per league game
1.97 - 2015
1.67 - 2016
1.64 - 2017

Q How do the 2018 results measure up so far?

A It is too early to make like-for-like comparisons, but after 5 league match Rovers have a 1.4 points per game average

[Ezeikial]

Average points per league game
1.97 - 2015
1.67 - 2016
1.64 - 2017

Q How do the 2018 results measure up so far?

A It is too early to make like-for-like comparisons, but after 5 league match Rovers have a 1.4 points per game average

To add some additional context to this average points stuff, the league winners in 2016 achieved an average of 2.33 points per game with the runners-up coming in at 2.12 points per game

2017 is pretty similar with the champions on 2.30 points, the runners-up on 2.09

League Winners average points per game
2.36 - 2015
2.33 - 2016
2.30 - 2017


Although it has limited relevance after so few games, the current top two in the league are running at 2.4 points per game.

[sbgawa]

Last attempt at an objective analysis of statistical facts in a 3 part Q & A -


Q. Did Bradley improve the Rovers results during his time as Caretaker Manager from July 2016?

A. No
Up to Pat Fenlon getting sacked, Rovers league record for the 2016 season was Played 16, Won 9, Drew 2, Lost 5, Points 29. Bradley was in charge for 17 league games - Played 17, Won 7, Drew 5, Lost 5, Points 26. Rovers were also knocked out at home in both major cup competitions: 3-1 by St Pats in the EA Cup and 5-0 by Cork in the FAI Cup under Bradley’s guidance

Summary of league points acheived in 2016
Fenlon achieved 1.81 points per game
Bradley achieved 1.53 points per game

Q Did Bradley improve the Rovers league results compared to previous seasons, after assembling his own squad for the 2017 season?

A No.
Although the level of decline in results depends on what you choose to measure it against

2015 - 33-18-11-04-65 (Played-Won-Drew-Lost-Points) – Fenlon as manager
2016 - 33-16-07-10-55 (Played-Won-Drew-Lost-Points) – Fenlon 16 matches, Bradley 17 matches
2017 - 33-17-03-13-54 (Played-Won-Drew-Lost-Points) – Bradley as manager

Average points per league game
1.97 - 2015
1.67 - 2016
1.64 - 2017

Q How do the 2018 results measure up so far?

A It is too early to make like-for-like comparisons, but after 5 league match Rovers have a 1.4 points per game average

My last attempt ...even though I should just go and bang my head on a wall as the wall is more likely to listen
Is Bradley in his second full season ? YES
Is his second full season likely to be better then his first ? at this point to early to call
Is investing in Academy's a good idea? Absolutely as I am sure the Cork lads would agree. Kids grow up and become supporters or players
Is someone who decides in a mangers FIRST year in the job that he is no good and then constantly quotes and writes about him worth listening to ? NO although to your credit you do admit to finding objectivity and impartiality difficult so there is some hope that your dark side might lose out one day and see the light.
COME INTO THE LIGHT !

[Ezeikial]

although to your credit you do admit to finding objectivity and impartiality difficult

In matters LoI, I rarely try to be impartial. IMO being objective is difficult for most LoI supporters, who tend to see things through the prism of their own experience (here's looking at you sbgawa and others).

Maybe we might find common ground on one aspect of this subject - a wish for Bradser to get a new long-term contract with Rovers.

I would cheer a new five year contract extension for the man - would you?

[El-Pietro]

But where are the results? He lost to Cork City with one teenager in the team. You are saying that the Academy is worth it. Who has come from the academy? What relevance does the academy have on Bradleys performance as manager?
Bolger has played 26 minutes so far this season, Sean Boyd has played 22 minutes. Trevor Clarke has played regularly and so has Sam Bone but thats about it. Kevin Horgan too but hes useless. When I said Caulfield had developed Maguire it was because he took a player who was struggling and turned him into the best player in the league. Which players has Bradley developed?

[placid casual]

Holy $hit, some people have got too much time on their hands!! And I include the Rovers lads in this.
The reality is that yes, Rovers fans are happy with Bradley.
If opposition fans are also happy that Bradley's in charge( but for different reasons) than hey look, everybody's happy!!
And you can't ask for much more than that..

[sbgawa]

But where are the results? He lost to Cork City with one teenager in the team. You are saying that the Academy is worth it. Who has come from the academy? What relevance does the academy have on Bradleys performance as manager?
Bolger has played 26 minutes so far this season, Sean Boyd has played 22 minutes. Trevor Clarke has played regularly and so has Sam Bone but thats about it. Kevin Horgan too but hes useless. When I said Caulfield had developed Maguire it was because he took a player who was struggling and turned him into the best player in the league. Which players has Bradley developed?

Results are not there yet because the academy is only up and running for about 4 years and they started with young kids but they won't come through for a few years yet.
The best of the kids seem to be the ones who started getting coached properly at 8 and are now 12 and 13.
The young kids in the first team setup will all get game time given the number of matches this year have mostly come from other clubs and joined us at 16 or 17 although we have a couple in this years 17's that joined us a few years ago.
Our 11's 12's and 13's are regularly playing in tournaments abroad and also flying over to take on UK academy teams and doing well.
Its a long term investment that won't pay off for several years to come but I'm following Rovers a long time and hope to be around to see it.


Do Cork not have an Academy ? I thought you did , or is it just the 15's 17's 19's

[sbgawa]

Holy $hit, some people have got too much time on their hands!! And I include the Rovers lads in this.
The reality is that yes, Rovers fans are happy with Bradley.
If opposition fans are also happy that Bradley's in charge( but for different reasons) than hey look, everybody's happy!!
And you can't ask for much more than that..

Your right I'm going to bang my head on a wall instead , hopefully Pats will get us back on track on Friday

[El-Pietro]

Results are not there yet because the academy is only up and running for about 4 years and they started with young kids but they won't come through for a few years yet.
The best of the kids seem to be the ones who started getting coached properly at 8 and are now 12 and 13.
The young kids in the first team setup will all get game time given the number of matches this year have mostly come from other clubs and joined us at 16 or 17 although we have a couple in this years 17's that joined us a few years ago.
Our 11's 12's and 13's are regularly playing in tournaments abroad and also flying over to take on UK academy teams and doing well.
Its a long term investment that won't pay off for several years to come but I'm following Rovers a long time and hope to be around to see it.


Do Cork not have an Academy ? I thought you did , or is it just the 15's 17's 19's
So basically the Academy has nothing to do with Bradleys performance then? So where is Bradleys success?

We do not have an academy.

[sbgawa]

OMG where is his success?
he is in his second year and no he didn't win the league or cup last year. Should be fired pronto.
A team from the South did win a league and a cup last year with a manager who was more than two years in the job......don't know how he survived.

I give up

[El-Pietro]

That manager took a team that finished sixth two years in a row to second with a much smaller budget than his competitors. Stephen Kenny did similar when he took over at Dundalk. Bradley and Rovers have not progressed. They are still 15-20 points from first. They are still the third/fourth best team in the country.
Remember, Bradley and Rovers lost more games than Galway last year and have lost 2 already this season.

[sbgawa]

head bang
head bang

[El-Pietro]

So no debate then? You are doing what you always do, shutting down discussion, on a discussion forum.

[sbgawa]

im happy to have a discussion El P but if you can't accept that giving a manager at least two full seasons before judging him a success or a failure what's the point?
In fact I'm pretty sure but can't be bothered to go checking you were saying the same last year when he was one year in the job..

Rovers supporters who go to the games (attendances up well last year) would say they see big improvements on the pitch and are hopeful of better things to come and appreciate the work he does around the whole club..

Bradser will be judged on results like all managers in the end but by people who are prepared to give him a chance not by rival supporters with entrenched views..

[Ezeikial]

So basically the Academy has nothing to do with Bradleys performance then? So where is Bradleys success?


My impression is that Rovers supporters are a little confused about this academy stuff and its relevance to Stephen Bradley and the first team performance.

Many are justifiably proud of the effort and resources Rovers have put in to try to develop this academy experiment - the narrative appears to be that slow senior progress is acceptable as long as there is a hope of good times to come in the future.

To be fair to sbgawa and others, he has not claimed that Bradley is the driving force the Academy, but seems to have bought in to the narrative above by giving him credit for unseen work he allegedly does with the kids. I'm not sure what that is exactly, although I do recall him setting poor example of personal indiscipline being involved in an incident as a spectator at an underage game previously.



I'd say in his second full season as a manager he is putting a decent stamp on the team and what the non Rovers fans don't see is the work he does in the Academy with the kids and that is where the long term future of the club is.


I enjoy discussion, hence my comments above about short time in the job and the work he does around the club to try to explain to non rovers fans why he gets the support he does.

[El-Pietro]

I probably was saying similar last summer when he reached 33 games in charge. I saw no progress over the course of one seasons worth of games and I see no progress in the 20ish games since then. You think there is progress but can't actually describe it in anything other than in terms of "better football" which is impossible to quantify.

If he is judged on results then he should be judged poorly as he isn't getting them.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I probably was saying similar last summer when he reached 33 games in charge. I saw no progress over the course of one seasons worth of games and I see no progress in the 20ish games since then. You think there is progress but can't actually describe it in anything other than in terms of "better football" which is impossible to quantify.

If he is judged on results then he should be judged poorly as he isn't getting them.

I actually posted the statistics showing the improvement over the course of last season earlier

[El-Pietro]

I actually posted the statistics showing the improvement over the course of last season earlier

I assume you are referring to the following:


First round last season Rovers lost to both Dundalk and Cork, second round we beat Dundalk, lost to Cork, third round we beat Dundalk and Cork, but no improvement there clearly.

First round of 2018 you lost to Cork City and drew with Dundalk. So going backwards again based on your logic. Also beating Cork City in the third series last year is hardly an achievement, everyone beat us.

[sullanefc]

John Caulfield:

2014 2nd
2015 2nd
2016 2nd
2017 1st

JC improved us in 2014 but made no progress in 2015 and 2016. Im fact there was a lower points total in 2015 iirc. Many called for his head and El-P was of the opinion he should remain in charge (rightly).

I'm no fan of Bradley, he comes out with an awful lot of guff and is a **** IMO, but criticism now is silly and a little hypocritical in some quarters.

[sbgawa]

Time will tell boys the jury of normal people will judge in time.
I've given up on expecting anything other than negativity from you two but you are entitled to your opinions which you clearly have.

EZ I love your line "unseen work he allegedly does in the academy" in response to my "He coaches kids in the Academy" is it that you don't believe me he coaches the kids?

[Ezeikial]

EZ I love your line "unseen work he allegedly does in the academy" in response to my "He coaches kids in the Academy" is it that you don't believe me he coaches the kids?

This is what you said (and is quoted above also)


I'd say in his second full season as a manager he is putting a decent stamp on the team and what the non Rovers fans don't see is the work he does in the Academy with the kids and that is where the long term future of the club is.

Do you think they are they different in meaning?