Rule 42 Discussion

[noby]

Right . . . I'll put it in human terms . . . your parents have a fine big house that has done ye all very well for decades. Mammy and Daddy decide to do up the house and say that they don't mind if you continue to live there when the work is done.
You are big enough and ugly enough to stand on your own two feet, but instead of heading off and getting a mortgage like the rest of your mates and building your own place, you never will because Mammy and Daddy will have you back.
Meanwhile, all your pals have moved on in life and have places of their own. You're happy to sit in Mammy and Daddy's place waiting for them to peg it, but the difference with this story is that in a family you'd get the house. The FAIreland lot don't even own a kettle at Lansdowne Rd.
(Apologies if you live with your parents Silvio) :D


Not quite a true analogy. Aren't the FAI putting up money for the re-development. Not sure how much, and what the final arangement will be, but it's something.


Anyway, "Spanner in the Works Alert" - Bertie still wants to push for abbotstown. So if LR is never re-developed, where does that leave the motion? Null and void?



Also, I agree with Superhoop. While it's a great descision, I would sooner go to Cardiff than be held to ransom.

[gspain]

It is not all cut and dried yet.

Assuming some of the planning issues around CP can be solved, not least of which are the issues relating to the residents and the problems relating to midweek fixtures (lack of parking and direct transport links), there are other huge commercial issues to be finalised, much of which will depend on how much the GAA will charge to hire out CP.

There has been talk of £1m euro per game. If the FAI and IRFU get a better deal than that abroad, and there is talk that the Millenium Stadium would be available for less than half that figure, then they will take it, especially the FAI who are cash strapped at the moment.

The issue you have mentioned regularly about loss to the Irish/Dublin economy if games were played abroad is not one for either the FAI or IRFU. it is strictly a matter for the Govt. If the postion arose where there was extra cost to the FAI or IRFU by using CP over what they would pay if they went abroad, then unless the Govt. was prepared to meet that extra cost, it would be commercial madness for either association to use CP, especially as there are likely to be a few games for each code where they will struggle to get 40000/50000 attendance, a number that will have to be achieved to pay the CP 'rent'.

Finally, yesterday's congress was quite clear that GAA fixtures would always get priority at CP. As far as soccer is concerned, there is always a international date on the week of or the week before the All-Ireland hurling final in Sept. This year for example, we play France at home 4 days before the Hurling Final and we play Israel at home the day before there is a Leinster Football double header scheduled for CP. The ideal surface for hurling/GAA football is not the same as that for playing soccer. Brian Kerr is reported to be concerned about the playing surface of CP and its suitability for soccer.

Personally I would have no problem with there being 6/8 football internationals being played in Cardiff or City of Manchester while Lansdowne is being redeveloped.

Not cut and dried by a long way!

Agreed it is not cut and dried.

The GAA will still be able to charge a premium on the rent as the F.A.I. could not be sure of filling Old Trafford or even Anfield. They will sellout Croke Park no problem.

The real losers if home football and rugby games went to Britain would the greater Dublin economy. The government cannot allow this to happen. The F.A.I. cannot be seen to move abroad and also still expect government funding for Lansdowne.

As for fixtures well it will reduce our negotiating power but we can control our own destiny here. Croke Park is effectively closed for 8 motnhs of the eyar anyway so plenty of scope here to play games.

We do owe a lot of away friendlies anyway. This would have been forseen years ago. Croke Park is not viable for a home friendly v Canada.

No ideas re the surface not being suitable for football however the GAA will need to sort out the surface for their own games.

I'd have no problem going to Liverpool or Manchester (Cardiff is a great stadium but very difficult to get to) for games either but I would have a problem with the revenue and jobs lost to this economy.

[Peadar]

Lets hope the FAI only have to suffer the indignity of using Croke Park for as few games as possible.

It will tak at least 2 years to build Lansdowne Road, Pete, so I'd say you can include an entire qualifying campaign in that.


I really really think UEFA should be asked to make an exception for Ireland and let Hill 16 be used as a terrace.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to make at least some of Hill 16 available to school children.
The're less likely to create a safety or security concern of the type UEFA/FIFA associate with terracing.

[paul_oshea]

There is no way I'd "rather go to Cardiff". We will be a joke in Europe if we can't host matches on our own soil.

well said that man.



I don't think it would be unreasonable to make at least some of Hill 16 available to school children.

i think the point he was making, was for atmosphere alone. so dumping a load of school children in there, nullifies that point.

[roboyle]

Agreed it is not cut and dried.
We do owe a lot of away friendlies anyway. This would have been forseen years ago. Croke Park is not viable for a home friendly v Canada.


I think you're giving the FAI too much credit there ;) - they make more money from home friendlies and Brian Kerr seems to be a fan of them so that why they play them.

As for friendlies at Croker, I'd imagine there will have to be some sort of attendance/fee relationship between the GAA/FAI - if you look at friendlies in recent years, only the big teams (Brazil/Czech Rep) filled Lansdowne and that was on the back of encouraging competitive results... taking Scotland/Canada/USA/China to Croker for a fee based on full house (or almost full house) attendances wouldn't make alot of sense...

[noby]

There is no way I'd "rather go to Cardiff". We will be a joke in Europe if we can't host matches on our own soil.
Some people here have no pride whatsoever. Big day out in Cardiff, yawn.
Have ye no pride in Ireland? I admire the GAA for what they have achieved and I applaud their courageous decision at the weekend. They didn't have to do it, but they did.
Time to start eating big dollops of humble pie lads. Or alternatively, go and book your Sea-Lynx tickets to Fishguard and spend your money in the Welsh economy. :mad:
Apologies for being so passionate about my country.


Paddy, I would love to go see Ireland play in CP as much as I would hate to go abroad for a home match. All I was saying was, if the GAA charge 4 or 5 times the rent of Cardiff, then business-wise, it would be silly not to consider the options.
The FAI have to be seen to hold some of the cards, or else the GAA can charge what they like.

[gspain]

I think you're giving the FAI too much credit there ;) - they make more money from home friendlies and Brian Kerr seems to be a fan of them so that why they play them.

As for friendlies at Croker, I'd imagine there will have to be some sort of attendance/fee relationship between the GAA/FAI - if you look at friendlies in recent years, only the big teams (Brazil/Czech Rep) filled Lansdowne and that was on the back of encouraging competitive results... taking Scotland/Canada/USA/China to Croker for a fee based on full house (or almost full house) attendances wouldn't make alot of sense...

Credit where it is due - we do owe quite a few friendlies - Denmark and I think a few more. Away games can be lucrative too with the match guarantee we command being quite high. We would also bring a decent travelling support.

Croke Park like all large stadia would require a significant attendance to make a game viable. I think the figure is around 35,000. We currently get good crowds because our friendlies are tied into block bookings. Now we could easily sellout a home qualifying campaign with block bookings but tieing in a number of friendlies would make this much more difficult. If our number 1 seed is a Sweden or Czech Republic as opposed to an England or Germany then the block bookings become much less attractive.

[Dawn_Run]

Credit where it is due - we do owe quite a few friendlies - Denmark and I think a few more. Away games can be lucrative too with the match guarantee we command being quite high. We would also bring a decent travelling support.

Croke Park like all large stadia would require a significant attendance to make a game viable. I think the figure is around 35,000. We currently get good crowds because our friendlies are tied into block bookings. Now we could easily sellout a home qualifying campaign with block bookings but tieing in a number of friendlies would make this much more difficult. If our number 1 seed is a Sweden or Czech Republic as opposed to an England or Germany then the block bookings become much less attractive.

I dont think attendances would be a problem in Croke Park - given the length of time that we would be using it and the amount of fixtures likely to happen I can see the use of Croke park being novelty enough for people to get off their ar$es and go, not as likely to get soaked to the bone in Croker either.

[noby]

According to today's Independent, Cardiff charges an average of around 28% of gate receipts for the use of its stadium and a full house at CP would generate about 5 million in gate receipts for soccer or rugby. So 28% of 5 million is 1.4 million euros. There is no chance whatsoever of the GAA charging 4 or 5 times the rent of Cardiff.


I have heard a lot of figures thrown about over the last couple of days. One of them being a €500,000 a match offer from Cardiff. I based my 4 or 5 times on this.
As I said before, I don't want to see them play out of the country, but from a purely business view, the FAI are right not to 'commit' to CP before a price has been negotiated.

[Don Vito]

I see in the papers today Bertie is trying to keep his Abbotstown dream alive, what is he thinking-nobody wants that option. Who wants a stadium in the middle of nowhere? Its all well and good if you have a city with excellent public transport but can you imagine the problems of 60,000 people trying to get to and from Abbotstown? Landsdown and Croke Park are in fantastic locations close to the city centre and I think it would a real shame and atmosphere drain if international games had to move as far out as Abbotstown.

[anto1208]

I see in the papers today Bertie is trying to keep his Abbotstown dream alive, what is he thinking-nobody wants that option. Who wants a stadium in the middle of nowhere? Its all well and good if you have a city with excellent public transport but can you imagine the problems of 60,000 people trying to get to and from Abbotstown? Landsdown and Croke Park are in fantastic locations close to the city centre and I think it would a real shame and atmosphere drain if international games had to move as far out as Abbotstown.


i want it out in abbotstown (not every one lives in Dublin you know :D :D )it would cut out a lot of time getting from cork or limerick , plus you would nt have the problems with the ridiculous traffic and parking in dublin .

[Peadar]

One of them being a €500,000 a match offer from Cardiff.

The FAI currently pay something in the region of €250,000 per game for Lansdowne Road. It would be insane to pay 10 times that figure to the GAA for only double the capacity.
It would mean that we'd be paying a minimum of €50 for a ticket to each game.

[OwlsFan]

While I too rejoice, there are somethings that need to be considered:

The general asking price being bandied about is 2 million a game (the FAI currently pay 200K to the IRFU for the use of Lansdowne). Lets say the FAI currently make 1.4 million a game (35.000 fans x 40 Euros a tick).

If we get say 70k at Croker at Euro 40 a ticket = 2.8 million but this time minus the GAA's huge cut. What this means is that we the fans, who are rejoicing, are going to have to pay double the amount per ticket to make it a viable proposition for the FAI.

It will therefore all come down to economics whether we play in Croker or elsewhere. John Brennan, sports editor from some tabloid, said on Gerry Ryan this am that the FAI will have to pay whatever the GAA asks. I disagree. They can only pay what they can afford, bearing in mind that this is the only source of revenue for Irish soccer.

It is therefore a double edged sword. God help the rugby punters -they already pay an arm and a leg for their tickets (80 euros).

And now Bertie is back tracking on Lansdowne. Sigh.

[Cowboy]

And now Bertie is back tracking on Lansdowne. Sigh.

Can you elaborate on this please?

[eirebhoy]

While I too rejoice, there are somethings that need to be considered:

The general asking price being bandied about is 2 million a game (the FAI currently pay 200K to the IRFU for the use of Lansdowne). Lets say the FAI currently make 1.4 million a game (35.000 fans x 40 Euros a tick).

If we get say 70k at Croker at Euro 40 a ticket = 2.8 million but this time minus the GAA's huge cut. What this means is that we the fans, who are rejoicing, are going to have to pay double the amount per ticket to make it a viable proposition for the FAI.

It will therefore all come down to economics whether we play in Croker or elsewhere. John Brennan, sports editor from some tabloid, said on Gerry Ryan this am that the FAI will have to pay whatever the GAA asks. I disagree. They can only pay what they can afford, bearing in mind that this is the only source of revenue for Irish soccer.

It is therefore a double edged sword. God help the rugby punters -they already pay an arm and a leg for their tickets (80 euros).
TBF, if we had to travel to England to see the team play it would cost a lot more than €70. :)

[Dotsy]

As far as the government is concerned the redevelopment of LR is a done deal. It's what has been approved at Cabinet. Bertie was severely embarrased at having to back down regarding the National Stadium at Abbotstown. There is no way he's going to put himself in that position again. IT would be a PR disaster. The PD's would never agree to it anyway.

On the issue of Croke Park it's great that the GAA have decided to make it available but I don't think the FAI will choose it if it doesn't make financial sense for them. I could see Bertie making some additional grants available to the GAA or the FAI (or both) in order for the finances to make sense for both parties to have the games played in CP. They government will not want the bad PR that would be generated around the time of the next election of the games being played in the UK.

[stojkovic]

The FAI should pay the same amount for Croker as for Lansdowne - 250k but maybe abit extra as the costs are higher - say 400k. They should keep their 'normal' profit that they would make for a game at Lansdowne.

The difference, possibly 1m will then go towards clearing the GAA debts of 36m but this money must go via the Govt. by way of a grant.

Everyones a winner
Apres moi la deluge.

[roboyle]

It's a bit early to second-guess what haggling will go on between the FAI and the GAA over the next year or two and what fees will be asked/offered. I think the statement on the FAI's website here (http://www.fai.ie/article.asp?hlid=270475&Title=FAI+welcome+for+GAA+decision+on+Croke+Park&lid=Main+News&sub=FAI+welcome+for+GAA+decision+on+Croke+Park&navlid=&sublid=) is about right in tone and content. Given that there won't be matches at Croke Park until the other side of 2006, the negotiations will be drawn out and given the parties involved, details will seep out into the media.
Ultimately I think a deal will be struck which benefits both organisations and things will settle down but I'd say there will be a few arguments between then and now to keep us 'entertained' in the mean time! :rolleyes:

[Dawn_Run]

How long is lansdown likely to be closed for does anyone know? One Year? two maybe? How does that compare with Wembly, a much smaller project i would have thought.

[OwlsFan]

The FAI should of course try to get the best deal possible, but the decision on whether or not to use CP or play the 'home' games in Britain should definitely not be made on economics alone. The FAI is going to receive a large chunk of taxpayers money to redevelop Lansdowne, so they have no right to then just turn around and go off to Britain. Wouldn't surprise me though if that is what they did.

Hmmm, not sure the FAI is getting taxpayers money to develop Lansdowne which is owned by the IRFU !! The FAI will benefit by using a redeveloped Lansdowne but it is owned by the IRFU and there will probably be a greater charge for using it.

[NeilMcD]

The whole idea of money is a smokescreen like any negotiations you state your opening offer and if its done through the press there is even more bravado. LIke union negotions or political ones its all the same. Even if there was a problem with the money sought after by the Gaa and money sought after by the Fai or Irfu, do you not think that the Govt could pick up the 500,000 or whaterver it is shortfall, They woudl get it back by keeping the match in Ireland anyway. Rugby and Soccer will be played in Croke Park and it will happen for the next qualifiers and for the Six Nations in 2007.

[Peadar]

The FAI will benefit by using a redeveloped Lansdowne but it is owned by the IRFU and there will probably be a greater charge for using it.

Think you need to read this (http://www.lrsdc.ie/home/default.asp) before you comment further.

[Superhoops]

The GAA will still be able to charge a premium on the rent as the F.A.I. could not be sure of filling Old Trafford or even Anfield. They will sellout Croke Park no problem..
I am not sure that even with Block Booking CP would be sold out for every game. We're talking about 70,000? (82000 less 12000 for the Hill). Maybe for the top 4 or 5 teams (Germany, Italy, Spain, Holland and you have to include England) yes you would, but we would be lucky to get 50,000 for the likes of Cyprus, Georgia and Faroes, at least one or two teams will be in that category.


The real losers if home football and rugby games went to Britain would the greater Dublin economy. The government cannot allow this to happen. The F.A.I. cannot be seen to move abroad and also still expect government funding for Lansdowne...
Nothing to do will football/rugby. The FAI/IRFU cannot be expected to 'do the right thing' if the sums don't add up. There are only two choices (i) the Govt. 'subsidises' the rental of CP to protect the economy or (ii) the FAI hike the ticket prices and we the fans pay to protect the economy. Not as much an issue for rugby, as ticket prices are usually much higher anyway. But I for one would not be happy to see my 36 euro ticket going up to 60 or 70 euro just to ensure the FAI take the moral high ground and grab the hand of friendship that has been offered (or stuck out to grab as much as it can!)


As for fixtures well it will reduce our negotiating power but we can control our own destiny here. Croke Park is effectively closed for 8 motnhs of the eyar anyway so plenty of scope here to play games.
As I said before, likely to be mainly midweek and unless it is against some of the big boys, we would be lucky to make 35/40000.


....Cardiff is a great stadium but very difficult to get to......
FFS Gary, this is Wales we are talking about. An unbelievable comment from a man that has travelled to every ar**hole country and town in Europe and beyond!

[Superhoops]

..The whole idea of money is a smokescreen ..
Not for the GAA it isn't. Let's assume the Central Council agree to open CP up. There will also be an expectation from within the GAA, especially from those who opposed opening it up, that if they do open it up then at least let it be worthwhile and if the FAI or IRFU want to use it then they (or someone else, the Govt.) must pay or else what will have been the point.

The Central Council members are not as liberal as the rank and file to whom the County Boards are answerable, therefore their interest will no longer be based on whether or not it is right to open CP up, but what is the price that is attractive enough to satisfy the commercial aspects of the FAI and IRFU and to prove to the 'hardcore' that financially it was worthwhile.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Not for the GAA it isn't. Let's assume the Central Council agree to open CP up. There will also be an expectation from within the GAA, especially from those who opposed opening it up, that if they do open it up then at least let it be worthwhile and if the FAI or IRFU want to use it then they (or someone else, the Govt.) must pay or else what will have been the point.

The Central Council members are not as liberal as the rank and file to whom the County Boards are answerable, therefore their interest will no longer be based on whether or not it is right to open CP up, but what is the price that is attractive enough to satisfy the commercial aspects of the FAI and IRFU and to prove to the 'hardcore' that financially it was worthwhile.

This vote has been a PR coup for the GAA for the Central Council to Torpedo it would be shooting themselves in the foot!

[Dotsy]

I'll predict now that whatever is agreed between the FAI and the GAA, the fee for using CP will be based on a percentage of the gate receipts. A flat fee makes no sense financially for the FAI given that there will be many games where they will not fill CP. However, I wouldn't rule out the Government making a contribution to ensure the GAA is guaranteed a particular revenue from each match regardless of the attendance.

[gspain]

I am not sure that even with Block Booking CP would be sold out for every game. We're talking about 70,000? (82000 less 12000 for the Hill). Maybe for the top 4 or 5 teams (Germany, Italy, Spain, Holland and you have to include England) yes you would, but we would be lucky to get 50,000 for the likes of Cyprus, Georgia and Faroes, at least one or two teams will be in that category.


Nothing to do will football/rugby. The FAI/IRFU cannot be expected to 'do the right thing' if the sums don't add up. There are only two choices (i) the Govt. 'subsidises' the rental of CP to protect the economy or (ii) the FAI hike the ticket prices and we the fans pay to protect the economy. Not as much an issue for rugby, as ticket prices are usually much higher anyway. But I for one would not be happy to see my 36 euro ticket going up to 60 or 70 euro just to ensure the FAI take the moral high ground and grab the hand of friendship that has been offered (or stuck out to grab as much as it can!)


As I said before, likely to be mainly midweek and unless it is against some of the big boys, we would be lucky to make 35/40000.


FFS Gary, this is Wales we are talking about. An unbelievable comment from a man that has travelled to every ar**hole country and town in Europe and beyond!

Big games in all major sports in this country will sellout many times over. We would have little difficulty selling out a big match and by setting up a competitive block booking system we could sellout all home qualifiers in CP. Ditto all the 6 nations games will sellout even if Italy has to be tied to wales and even Wales + Scotland.

I expect the GAA will either get a premium on the rent or get a government grant for floodlights etc as a sweetener.

Cardiff is not easily accessible from Dublin. Limited flights (small airport) and the ferry takes time and is cancelled much more often than the Holyhead route. Manchester/Liverpool are much better serviced as indeed is London. anyway Wales will be at home there and we would need to alternate fixtures. It was a travel nightmare when Munster played the HC Final there. Contrast with Anfield in 95.

There is too much money at stake for the economy for these games to leave Dublin now. The big obstacle has been overcome and it will get worked out.

The F.A.I. need the government on board too to build Lansdowne.

[OwlsFan]

Think you need to read this (http://www.lrsdc.ie/home/default.asp) before you comment further.

Thanks for that. The interesting part reads: "As part of the announcement a new company, Lansdowne Road Stadium Development Company (LRSDC) was formed by the IRFU and FAI. The company, which is chaired by Philip Browne, chief executive of the IRFU, will be responsible for the construction and management of the proposed new stadium".

The FAI are helping the IRFU to redevelop the new stadium but surely the IRFU are not sharing their ownership of the ground with the FAI. Prime real estate in Dublin !! Anyone know the answer to that ?

[Donal81]

Thanks for that. The interesting part reads: "As part of the announcement a new company, Lansdowne Road Stadium Development Company (LRSDC) was formed by the IRFU and FAI. The company, which is chaired by Philip Browne, chief executive of the IRFU, will be responsible for the construction and management of the proposed new stadium".

The FAI are helping the IRFU to redevelop the new stadium but surely the IRFU are not sharing their ownership of the ground with the FAI. Prime real estate in Dublin !! Anyone know the answer to that ?

The Lansdowne Road Stadium Development Company will manage the new stadium. This will rent it from the IRFU. It's a bit confusing in that the LRSDC will most likely have members of the IRFU, the FAI and the Govt. on its board. As far as I know, the FAI and the IRFU are both investing in this new company, with the government making up the rest of the development money (a sh!teload of the money, in fact). So, the IRFU will continue to own it but the FAI and the IRFU will both have a stake in the company that manages it.

[DeLorean]

But the real issue here is that in a county of half a million people the biggest soccer stadium only holds 7500 people.

Whatever about the other aspects of the debate, is there really a need for a soccer stadium in Cork with a capacity of >7,500? It's more than adequate to meet demand 99.999% of the time. I certainly don't see that as being the real issue.

[osarusan]

But the real issue here is that in a county of half a million people the biggest soccer stadium only holds 7500 people. The GAA have got their **** together in a way the FAI and LOI clubs have failed to do. The simple fact is that the GAA have built that stadium and football is a rival sport. Why should they hand over the keys?
While we can debate the extent to which the lack of a football stadium is indicative of FAI failure or whatever, the real issue for me is that right now, there is a charity match coming up, and demand has exceeded expectations and the capacity of the football stadium originally slated to hold it.

The GAA can deem it a rival sport and stick to their constitution and keep their doors closed, or they can accept it as a charity event, open up the doors, and generate more money to be sent in the direction of the family, and hospice, that are set to benefit.

Although I'm no fan of the GAA, I can understand why they are somewhat hesitant about it (although it seems Cork GAA have no issue with it), I think this is a terrible situation to use to make a point.

EDIT: There is also the issue of 30 million in government grants to refurbish Pairc Ui Chaoimh (from a total of 80 million) being approved by the EU on condition that the ground “will be open to various users on a non-discriminatory and transparent basis”.

[mark12345]

I've an awful lot of time for Damien Duff. He is clearly both intelligent and articulate in equal measure. I think he does a great job on rte and what he is doing in coaching is wonderful for Irish football.

But I think he has laid it on a bit thick here.

He is obviously angry and I understand why. Liam Miller was clearly a friend of his and what happened was a tragedy.

But the real issue here is that in a county of half a million people the biggest soccer stadium only holds 7500 people. The GAA have got their **** together in a way the FAI and LOI clubs have failed to do. The simple fact is that the GAA have built that stadium and football is a rival sport. Why should they hand over the keys?

They don't have to hand over the keys. They don't have to do anything but put their trousers on in the morning. But don't you think they should.? Duff played a sport where the mixed use of facilities was commonplace. He obviously sees the rank stupidity of an organization which has the attention of the nation for a good portion of the year, but likes to separate themselves from other sports. From a PR perspective, Duff is right. It is a nightmare for the GAA. Does the organization not stop to think that the people who support Cork hurlers and footballers would be quite fond of Liam Miller also. And those same fans would like to see right done by his surviving family

[samhaydenjr]

Whatever about the other aspects of the debate, is there really a need for a soccer stadium in Cork with a capacity of >7,500? It's more than adequate to meet demand 99.999% of the time. I certainly don't see that as being the real issue.

There isn't, but there should be (although City have tested the capacity on quite a few occasions over the last three years). Perhaps efforts should be made with the IRFU to develop Musgrave Park into a 12-15,000 capacity stadium and play more Munster games along with the bigger Cork City games there (European ties, big league games, glamour friendlies) and perhaps some National side friendlies.

Ultimately the aim should be to get more people going to games - the FORAS people at City deserve a lot of credit for getting crowd averages to 4500 within a few years of taking over a bankrupt club but there is surely still more room for growth in a city of 200,000 with a Metro area of more than 300,000 - for example, Ipswich has a city population of 130,000 and a Metro area population of 180,000 - the Trotters' average attendance last season was over 16,000 and that was considered a bad year.

And the picture looks terribly bleak when you compare our capital with Britain's - if all the League Clubs in London (a city of 8.5m people) played at home, you could expect 300,000 to be in attendance, whereas if all the League Clubs in Dublin (urban pop. 1.3m) played at home, you'd be hard pressed to get 6000 out.

And having a stable, fully professional league could be a vital part in ensuring future success for our National Side - over the next couple of years, when we ask ourselves if and how a country of Ireland's size can make an impact in major tournaments, we should constantly refer ourselves to the Croatian experience - I've already mentioned it myself already. One component of that is having a professional league that can keep talent at home longer - almost all of the Croatian squad played multiple seasons in the Croatian league before moving on to bigger, nay, the biggest clubs. And it's not like the attendance levels of the Croatian First League are unattainable - average for the league is under 3000 and, while Dinamo Zagreb and Hajduk Split do get big crowds, second-placed Rijeka had an average attendance last season only a few hundred more than Cork City.

I was told elsewhere that the major source of revenue for Irish clubs is now European money and transfer fees, but that shouldn't be the case - you can't run a professional football club on the basis of half a million in European prize money and a couple of hundred thousand in transfer fees, as John Caulfield pointed out (https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/cork-city-manager-john-caulfield-12846637) - attendances and merchandising are still the backbone for LOI clubs - again kudos to the CCFC team who have got revenues to a healthy 2.7m in 2017 (https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/priming-cork-city-for-the-future-466551.html)

So why don't Irish people go to LOI games more? Competition from the GAA? Not on a Friday night. Poor quality football? Well it's not EPL but it's not exactly the hoofball of the early '90s either - there are numerous ex and future internationals in the league at any given time. Prohibitive costs? 15 euros every couple of weeks (or once a month if you only go to every second home game)? Come on... I'm going to say the most controversial thing I've said on this site ever. The main reason Irish people aren't going to football games is that the centre of Irish entertainment is still the pub.

Sorry, went off on a bit of a tangent there, but I see the wonderful success of the Croatian team, not just this year, and I see no inherent reason why Ireland can't emulate everything they've done - and we're not that far off, we just need to improve a few things - better coaching of the kids and a pathway to professionalism, which the FAI does seem to be trying to do, at least, and a viable professional league that can attract and keep better players for longer, allowing teams to go further in Europe and demand higher transfer fees, which allows them to keep and attract more 'marquee' players, increasing attendances further, allowing them to go further in Europe etc etc.

[Eminence Grise]

The GAA have no problem shilling out Croke Park to the made-up mockery that has become Compromise Rules, or American football. If it's precedent they want, how about rodeo in Croker during the 1924 Tailteann Games? https://books.google.ie/books?id=jC8lDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA106&dq=a+rodeo+exhibition+in+croke+park+in+1924&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7lL3L57jcAhXDgVwKHTU_AxAQ6AEIJzAA#v=on epage&q=a%20rodeo%20exhibition%20in%20croke%20park%20in% 201924&f=false

Old-fashioned chauvinism, pure and simple. They can do it when they want. Duff is only saying what others are thinking.

[backstothewall]

The GAA have no problem shilling out Croke Park to the made-up mockery that has become Compromise Rules, or American football. If it's precedent they want, how about rodeo in Croker during the 1924 Tailteann Games? https://books.google.ie/books?id=jC8lDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA106&dq=a+rodeo+exhibition+in+croke+park+in+1924&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7lL3L57jcAhXDgVwKHTU_AxAQ6AEIJzAA#v=on epage&q=a%20rodeo%20exhibition%20in%20croke%20park%20in% 201924&f=false

Old-fashioned chauvinism, pure and simple. They can do it when they want. Duff is only saying what others are thinking.

This is all entirely true. But they own it. It's entirely at their own discretion who they rent it out to, and who they don't.

I'd imagine that the #newbridgeornowhere situation means they are about to set off on a course of building at least one 15k+ capacity stadium in all 32 counties. Shamrock Rovers aside, Football is still nowhere.

To those who say the demand isn't there to justify soccer teams building stadiums like that, ask yourself how often Croke Park is full. As a random example i googled the for a game held there recently and came up with the Leinster Hurling final. The attendance was 40,703, less than half the capacity of the place. They can only ever guarantee to fill it for the 2 finals. They might fill it for a particularly interesting clash at the latter stages of the championship, or a big game for the Dubs. But it's still the jewel in their crown.

To those who want to complain about how much grant money they get out of the government, why not ask why football can't match that? Football is a massive sport, with friends in high places (from the Aras down) and as much capacity to influence those who hold the purse strings. I read today that St. Pats have had their stadium plans rejected. This line stood out from the article on RTE


Today, Minister for Housing Eoghan Murphy confirmed that instead 472 housing units will be constructed - 330 of them cost-rental and the remainder social housing. https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2018/0723/980542-st-pats-refuse-to-give-up-on-stadium-plan/


Eoghan Murphy represents Dublin Bay South, which is a neighbouring constituency to Dublin South-Central where Richmond Park is. A large number of St Pats fans are voters in the constituency of the minister who made the decision. This would never have happened to a reasonably sized GAC, never mind a county board, for the very simple reason that there would be political consequences if it did. But in a country where a couple of hundred votes make a huge difference at election time, League of Ireland clubs like St. Pats can be **** upon from a great height because the likes of Eoghan Murphy know there isn't a damn thing anybody is going to do about it.

A city the size of Cork should have a stadium capable of hosting 18k-20k people for football and rugby etc. If designed with a decent amount of forethought there is no reason why there couldn't be further temporary seating added for big events such as this one

[DeLorean]

There isn't, but there should be (although City have tested the capacity on quite a few occasions over the last three years). Perhaps efforts should be made with the IRFU to develop Musgrave Park into a 12-15,000 capacity stadium and play more Munster games along with the bigger Cork City games there (European ties, big league games, glamour friendlies) and perhaps some National side friendlies.

Maybe Musgrave Park having a capacity of 4-7,000 more would be desirable on occasion but I'm not sold on the genuine need, as things stand. Munster are still going to play the majority of their games at Thomond Park and City at Turner's Cross. Increasing crowds in the medium to long-term is another debate really and certainly if the capacity at the Cross, at some point, is struggling to accommodate demand that would be a completely different situation, but it's hardly a case of 'if you build it, they will come'.

Anyway, in the context of the Liam Miller match, it's hardly a stick to beat the FAI with? I presume this (or another) saga would have still broken out even if they had a stake in a 12-15,000 capacity Musgrave Park, given it would still be 30,000 less than Páirc Uí Chaoimh.

[osarusan]

This is all entirely true. But they own it. It's entirely at their own discretion who they rent it out to, and who they don't.

Again, I'll point out that the €30 milion grant for refurbishment was approved by the EU on condition that the stadium be made available to other sports and interests in a non-discriminatory and transparent basis. The Irish government was instructed by the EU to monitor the situation for 15 years to ensure that this was indeed happening.

So I would not be sure that it is entirely at their discretion, or, at least, I am not sure they can simply take the attitude that they don't want to hand over the keys to a rival sport.

[osarusan]

Anyway, in the context of the Liam Miller match, it's hardly a stick to beat the FAI with? I presume this (or another) saga would have still broken out even if they had a stake in a 12-15,000 capacity Musgrave Park, given it would still be 30,000 less than Páirc Uí Chaoimh.
It all depends on the demand I suppose, and to a certain extent, that depends on the number of tickets available, which depends on the venue.

I would have thought that 12-15,000 would be enough, but as there isn't any venue with that capacity, the need to look for a bigger one.

[backstothewall]

It all depends on the demand I suppose, and to a certain extent, that depends on the number of tickets available, which depends on the venue.

I would have thought that 12-15,000 would be enough, but as there isn't any venue with that capacity, the need to look for a bigger one.

The key is building something adaptable. The stadium the Russians built for the World Cup in Yeketerinberg was an extreme example but it shows what can be done with temporary seating if you leave space for it.

Once they take the temporary stands away it will become a modern facility with a modest enough capacity of 23,000. A little big for Cork City but it shows what is possible.


Again, I'll point out that the €30 milion grant for refurbishment was approved by the EU on condition that the stadium be made available to other sports and interests in a non-discriminatory and transparent basis. The Irish government was instructed by the EU to monitor the situation for 15 years to ensure that this was indeed happening.

So I would not be sure that it is entirely at their discretion, or, at least, I am not sure they can simply take the attitude that they don't want to hand over the keys to a rival sport.

I don't think any of us a really qualified to say if the GAA are breaking EU state aid rules here. They have made the venue available to the likes of Ed Sheeran so It isn't like they are applying a blanket ban on other users, and it wouldn't be hard to make an argument that they are protecting their own commercial interests rather than discriminating against anyone. It's not like they are refusing to rent it out because they don't want protestants running about on their pitch.

[Real ale Madrid]

A city the size of Cork should have a stadium capable of hosting 18k-20k people for football and rugby etc. If designed with a decent amount of forethought there is no reason why there couldn't be further temporary seating added for big events such as this one

It already does. Why does it need another one?

The public coffers have put €30 million into that one ( slap bang in the middle of a recession) , gave the GAA another chunk of that land beside it ( worth God knows) , while they flouted planning laws, and are now looking for the Cork city Council to stump up for another close to 1m for local amenities inc improved lighting which were promised at the start of the build.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2016/0105/ireland/gaa-and-council-under-fire-over-pairc-ui-chaoimh-demolition-374377.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cork-park-purchase-order-welcomed-1.1195239
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/row-over-gaas-bill-for-lighting-around-pairc-ui-chaoimh-466384.html

People are literally saying we now need ANOTHER stadium in Cork to play soccer and Rugby despite the inordinate amount public funding that has gone into the big stadium that is there. People must think we are awash with money! We can't even fund a half decent events centre in the City - the only way of getting a decent mid size concert to the City is to erect a giant tent for 2 months every summer. How on earth are we able to afford to second large sporting arena.

Meanwhile CCFC are left in the lurch currently for €5m to get a COMMUNITY training facility off the ground.

I agree that comments like Duff's are unhelpful, but when you see the carry on from the GAA in places like Cork - the way they act with seeming impunity, the way Thomas Davis carried on up in Dublin being another fine example, then its not hard to understand the bitterness in come circles - notwithstanding the utter incompetence that is the FAI.

There is a simple solution to all this - politicians show some backbone and say to the GAA - no more public money until your facilities are open to use by the public.

[NeverFeltBetter]

The simple fact is that the huge amount of public money used to refurbish the stadium should mean the GAA shouldn't get to solely dictate what should or shouldn't be played there. The idea that a stadium that big should be used just for gaelic and hurling alone is nonsense, and that goes for every other GAA stadium in the country too, considering how much in grants they get. I'm not suggesting CCFC should move-in, but once-off events like the proposed testimonial, maybe European games, even an Ireland friendly, should be facilitated, as a matter of common and financial sense.

[DeLorean]

It all depends on the demand I suppose, and to a certain extent, that depends on the number of tickets available, which depends on the venue.

I would have thought that 12-15,000 would be enough, but as there isn't any venue with that capacity, the need to look for a bigger one.

Hard to know, they sold 7,000 tickets in less than ten minutes I believe so I'd assume the attendance will be upwards on 20,000 anyway. Even if it's not, I don't think this very specific event is a reason to give our about the FAI not having a bigger football stadium located in Cork. In the main, they simply don't need one, and neither do the IRFU.

[backstothewall]

The simple fact is that the huge amount of public money used to refurbish the stadium should mean the GAA shouldn't get to solely dictate what should or shouldn't be played there.

That's not a fact. It's an opinion.


Hard to know, they sold 7,000 tickets in less than ten minutes I believe so I'd assume the attendance will be upwards on 20,000 anyway. Even if it's not, I don't think this very specific event is a reason to give our about the FAI not having a bigger football stadium located in Cork. In the main, they simply don't need one, and neither do the IRFU.

Clearly the people who hand out Rubgy World Cup hosting rights didn't agree with you.

[DeLorean]

To those who say the demand isn't there to justify soccer teams building stadiums like that, ask yourself how often Croke Park is full. As a random example i googled the for a game held there recently and came up with the Leinster Hurling final. The attendance was 40,703, less than half the capacity of the place. They can only ever guarantee to fill it for the 2 finals. They might fill it for a particularly interesting clash at the latter stages of the championship, or a big game for the Dubs. But it's still the jewel in their crown.

Croke Park is more comparable to Lansdowne Road, as the main stadium for its association(s). Lansdowne Road isn't full very often either, only guaranteed for a few rugby internationals. I accept they still require a certain capacity to facilitate their biggest occasions, if that's the point you're making. These may be infrequent but hardly comparable the very rare occasions Cork City would require a larger capacity, for example.


Clearly the people who hand out Rubgy World Cup hosting rights didn't agree with you.

I'm not sure what you mean, wasn't PUC put forward as the Cork venue and the main reason the Government pumped so much into it in the first place?

[backstothewall]

There is a simple solution to all this - politicians show some backbone and say to the GAA - no more public money until your facilities are open to use by the public.

This just isn't going to happen folks. Until football is as well organised as GAA It's going to be a case of crumbs from the GAA table.

There is no point blaming politicians. It's always been the way, and It's the same in every democracy in the world.

No point blaming the GAA either. They are doing the best they can for their sport. The negative implications about the grant money they get is nothing but begrudgery. The money is there and football would get it's fair share if politicians were as afraid of football as they are of GAA.

[Real ale Madrid]

There is no point blaming politicians. It's always been the way, and It's the same in every democracy in the world.


Absolute and utter rubbish. To say " its always been the way" without any justification whatsoever is exactly the reason why politics is so parish pump messed up in the first place.

Again to re-iterate - I don't agree with with Duff's comments on the issue as they are unhelpful, but I sure as hell understand them. The GAA do what they like and the rest of the people can go scratch - that's just wrong. To justify it with "thats just the way it is" compounds the problem further.

[osarusan]

I don't think any of us a really qualified to say if the GAA are breaking EU state aid rules here.
Agreed. But equally, nobody here is qualified to say that GAA have sole discretion on who uses that pitch or not, considering the funding received and conditions that came with the funding.

Anyway, regardless of whether it would get them in hot water or not, I think that this charity match would, from a publicity perspective, be an absolutely terrible choice of event for the GAA to make a stand on.

[backstothewall]

Absolute and utter rubbish. To say " its always been the way" without any justification whatsoever is exactly the reason why politics is so parish pump messed up in the first place.

Again to re-iterate - I don't agree with with Duff's comments on the issue as they are unhelpful, but I sure as hell understand them. The GAA do what they like and the rest of the people can go scratch - that's just wrong. To justify it with "thats just the way it is" compounds the problem further.

I just don't have the time today to reply to everyone so I picked out this one.

The Oakland Raiders are moving to Las Vegas in 2020. Their new 65,000 capacity stadium is being built at a cost of $1.8bn, which will be paid in its entirety by the city. The Raiders originally selected the location and will pay rent of $1, for which they will control the naming rights for both the stadium and the road outside.

The British government paid a huge amount of money towards rebuilding Wembley, which the English FA are on the verge of selling at a huge profit.

Man City pay a laughable rent towards the Etihad, which they also control the naming rights to.

The funding the GAA receive has nothing to do with parish pump politics. It is completely normal, and rather modest compared to what goes on in the US. What is abnormal in Ireland is the lack of funding football receives. Going back to the St. Pats decision, if that happened to the local football club this close to an election the local elected reps would be brushing up their CV in most other countries.

[Fixer82]

Apologies if mentioned before but has anyone else thought that the organisers seemed a bit disorganised about this?
I'm only outside looking in and, coming from a GAA background perhaps I have GAA-tinted glasses, but it seemed as if the organisers didn't give the GAA much time (I know the game is in September) and just barrelled ahead and then gave out that they didn't get Páirc Uí Chaoimh.
Like they didn't include the GAA in the planning of it and then assumed it would be available.

Am I wrong?

Now, don't get me wrong, the game should definitely be allowed go ahead in PUC. But it just smacked of the GAA saying 'incompetence from the soccer crowd again' for me.

As if they assumed it would be fine to use the stadium.

I am open to correction on everything here.

But the GAA is very well organised. And they have their rules and regulations because of that and vice versa.
in this case, of course, the rule needs to be broken and looked at more intensely for the future.

I think sense will prevail as every sportsperson on the island wants the match played in PUC.

[tetsujin1979]

From what I can tell, they did approach the GAA, and were turned down, and when the details of the match were announced everyone asked, "why not Pairc Ui Chaoimh", and that's when the outrage started.