Rule 42 Discussion

[gspain]

Limerick met last night and voted YES
Cork didnt meet last night but have decided to vote NO. Dont know how they came to that decision.

Although I am 110% for the opening of Croker, having listened to the Cork Representative on the news yesterday he made some valid points, one in particular I have some sympathy with. He says that Cork have received nothing from the GAA as to how the opening of Croke Park will benefit clubs at county level. No indication has been given as to how/if the funds made from opening up will be dispersed.

A valid point but still its only an excuse for their narrowmindedness IMO.

And the Welsh Rugby Union presumably provided 500 page dossiers to all clubs on the benefits of playing the FA Cup final there when the rugby season is over. :confused:

My favourite bit of the RTE Voxpop was the guy from St. Vincents in Cork - " We'd be against it. Just up the road here we had guys murdered by the Black and Tans. It was a horrible death too. We commemorate it every Easter nothing political mind. As I said we are a staunch Republican club so we'd be against it" tyou couldn't make this stuff up could you?

Cork is one man one vote. Frank Murphy is the man and he has the vote. No surpirses there.

[monutdfc]

There are 7 motions being put forward; but the one that almost certainly will be voted on is the one that would allow Croke Park to be opened up to other sports during the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road.
I think the actual decision to do so would be made by Central Council (not 100% sure on that), but it is highly unlikely they would not do so if Congress voted 2:1 in favour.

[Cowboy]

I disagree as to its validity and I think its a red herring from this guy. Its too early to say how the money would dispersed as this would ne a matter for the board of management when/if they become enpowered to do do.

I think this guy is opposed in any scenario and is plucking at straws. He sounded like a child wanting to be led by the hand.





Although I am 110% for the opening of Croker, having listened to the Cork Representative on the news yesterday he made some valid points, one in particular I have some sympathy with. He says that Cork have received nothing from the GAA as to how the opening of Croke Park will benefit clubs at county level. No indication has been given as to how/if the funds made from opening up will be dispersed.

A valid point but still its only an excuse for their narrowmindedness IMO.

[drummerboy]

Don't you guys know that these people are more Irish that you lot

[Dawn_Run]

Suppose the vote goes through, does this mean Croke Park will definitely be opened or is the vote just to give the power to Central Council to open it?


Nope - the vote - if passed - will only allow the opening of croke park to be discussed officially.

[gspain]

Don't you guys know that these people are more Irish that you lot

Absolutely. I can't believe Ronan O'Gara has never apologised for the Black and Tans in 1922. And it is well known that Roy Keane is a direct descendant of Oliver Cromwell. :D

In fairness though with Mayo giving a free vote only Monaghan and Cork in the Republic are against opening up Croke Park.

[gspain]

Nope - the vote - if passed - will only allow the opening of croke park to be discussed officially.

true but it is very unlikely that Central Council would refuse.

[Peadar]

Taken from an article in the Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com) today.

Jim O’Sullivan writes

The staging of international soccer and rugby games in Croke Park could necessitate the expenditure of €20m by the GAA.

Full story here... (http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/sport/Full_Story/did-sgAD6rmxu-Xd-sgdq-nXlDAyFE.asp)

[monutdfc]

In fairness though with Mayo giving a free vote only Monaghan and Cork in the Republic are against opening up Croke Park.
Well thank goodness ourselves and the Corkmen are standing alongside our Northern Brethern :D :D

Seriously though, does that mean that if all the county delgates vote they way they are supposed to then the 2/3rds will almost certainly be achieved?

[Dawn_Run]

Taken from an article in the Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com) today.

Jim O’Sullivan writes


Full story here... (http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/sport/Full_Story/did-sgAD6rmxu-Xd-sgdq-nXlDAyFE.asp)

Thats an interesting article Peadar, the main concerns here are segregation of fans and floodlighting. Floodlighting, IMO, could be incorporated into any deal signed between FAI, GAA and IRFU. Segregation is a different story. Obviously there are UEFA regulations as to how opposing fans should be segregated. I doubt that temporary measures are acceptable here. How does it currently work in Lansdown? I'm a South Bucket die hard - not too au fait on what happens on the North end.
I knew knocking the Nally was going to come back to haunt us! :D

[blobbyblob]

Seriously though, does that mean that if all the county delgates vote they way they are supposed to then the 2/3rds will almost certainly be achieved?


Not nessesarily. Some counties are more powerful than others. 1 vote for every 10 clubs in your county.

Hertfordshire has voted against it last night because of the fear of hooligans.

[gspain]

Thats an interesting article Peadar, the main concerns here are segregation of fans and floodlighting. Floodlighting, IMO, could be incorporated into any deal signed between FAI, GAA and IRFU. Segregation is a different story. Obviously there are UEFA regulations as to how opposing fans should be segregated. I doubt that temporary measures are acceptable here. How does it currently work in Lansdown? I'm a South Bucket die hard - not too au fait on what happens on the North end.
I knew knocking the Nally was going to come back to haunt us! :D

Currently segregation is done on the North Terrace by a line of stewards. Same thing in Israel recently. I went into the home end to get the free T shirt and came back - no problems. As for stade de France.........

Floodlights are not needed. Games can be played during the day. Obviously if the F.A.I. or IRFU wanted floodlights they'd have to pay for them.

The pathetic attempts at the "No" camp to hide their bigotry behind stupid reasons laughable.

[Dotsy]

THis is probably very naieve but given that individual delegates can vote against getting rid of Rule 42 even if they were mandated to vote for the motion what are the chances of them voting for it where the county has madated a vote against.

[Peadar]

Floodlights are not needed. Games can be played during the day.


Floodlights are required for afternoon or later games in the winter.
What might look to you and I from the terrace, doesn't show up well on TV without sufficient lighting.

I know that the eL clubs have to comply with the minimum average lux level specified in the relevant UEFA club competitions regulations.

It's not a problem though because the stadium structure can accommodate lighting and the cost would, of course, be met by the individual sporting body.

[eirebhoy]

I've said this many times but Cork people have a lot more effection for Cork than they do for Ireland. That isn't the case in most Leinster/other counties and it does effect the voting.

Sonia O'Sullivan, Roy Keane and Denis Irwin are Corkmen/women. Damien Duff, Robbie Keane and Jonny Giles are Irishmen.

[Peadar]

I've said this many times but Cork people have a lot more effection for Cork than they do for Ireland.

It's quite easy for Dublin people to say they're "Irish first" because, essentially, the country revolves around the seat of government, the heads of sporting bodies, the national broadcaster and so on and so forth, which all happen to be in Dublin.

By actively promoting issues in the name of "Ireland", you're effectively further empowering and enhancing Dublin.

There is an Ireland outside of Dublin.
An Ireland which fights hard for economic survival.
The €15m or so generated from each major sporting event, is barely seen anywhere beyond the pail.

[monutdfc]

Not nessesarily. Some counties are more powerful than others. 1 vote for every 10 clubs in your county.



Yes, but on the basis of the counties that have declared their intention to support the motion, is there enough delegates for the 2/3rds?

[noby]

Did Cork not meet lastnight?
They had a whole piece on the news lastnight, showing people walking into Pairc ui Chaoimh.
Or did they just not discuss it?

[gspain]

Floodlights are required for afternoon or later games in the winter.
What might look to you and I from the terrace, doesn't show up well on TV without sufficient lighting.

I know that the eL clubs have to comply with the minimum average lux level specified in the relevant UEFA club competitions regulations.

It's not a problem though because the stadium structure can accommodate lighting and the cost would, of course, be met by the individual sporting body.

Simply not true. Yes UEFA have all sorts of regulations and rightly so re the lux but you have enough daylight hours to play any home game at any time of the year without lights. OK it can mean a 1pm kickoff on a wednesday in November aka England 1990 in Lansdowne but you don't need floodlights.

Now Croek Park is wored for lights and the GAA may decide to get the F.A.I. and/or government to pay for them or a chunk of them and there is a business decision to be made then as Sky and advertisers would much prefer a kickoff time outside normal working hours.

Remember Estonia were forced into a daytime kickoff v Scotland when their lights didn't pass the test and the mess that followed.

[gspain]

Did Cork not meet lastnight?
They had a whole piece on the news lastnight, showing people walking into Pairc ui Chaoimh.
Or did they just not discuss it?

Franco Murphy decided not to have a vote and just mandated their delegates to vote against.

Actually a positive sign as he must at least have been concerned enough that it might have failed.

[gspain]

Yes, but on the basis of the counties that have declared their intention to support the motion, is there enough delegates for the 2/3rds?

Based on declarations there are enough votes but only just.

However

1) Delegates may break mandate

2) Delegates may only vote in favour of one of the 7 motions and vote against the other 6 - tactical voting by delegates madated to vote for but personally against could scupper it here if they pick different motions to support. This may be scuppered by withdrawing 6 of the 7 motions but then delegates could claim their mandated motion was withdrawn and now they have a free vote to go against.

3) Delegates may find an urgent need to visit the toilet as they did in 2001 and not be able to vote.

The problem is that the opening up of Croke Park is a minor issue for those in favour and they are probably more concerned with getting teams out, price of hurleys etc (fair enough obviously - when Shels gave Tolka for Rugby League I doubt if their fans gave it a 2nd thought ) but it is a life or death matter for many of the diehards opposed to it - 1916, black and tans, foreign games, union jacks.......

Paddy Power now has it 4/6 to open up and 11/10 against so that is a big swing from 3/1 a year or so ago.

[pete]

I think the undemocratic attempts by the GAA powers that be to ensure rule 42 stays put is pathetic. If they going to stop it then why not do so democractically. There will probably some situation where multiple issues to vote on to split vote & ensure is delayed for another year.

€20m to upgrade what the GAA claim is one best stadiums in Europe is also pathetic. Lansdowne has feck all segregation i.e. no fences or similar. IMO floodlights is also a non-issue as the FAI for example can arrange to play most home games at weekends when early start is possible.

:rolleyes:

[Cowboy]

€20m to upgrade what the GAA claim is one best stadiums in Europe is also pathetic. Lansdowne has feck all segregation i.e. no fences or similar. IMO floodlights is also a non-issue as the FAI for example can arrange to play most home games at weekends when early start is possible.

:rolleyes:

Diversionary tactics I feel, these guys are in a corner and know it

[Dawn_Run]

What the Cork county board have done here is a disgrace. What are the grass roots going to do about this fiasco? In this day and age, democracy should rule. Anyone that doesnt think along these lines has no business making decisions that are of public importance. I have no problem with the county voting no, but please, let the people decide. These bigots should not be supported.

[Dawn_Run]

Armagh - NO
Westmeath - YES

[Kingdom]

One of the problems GAA people had with Croker being opened was the potential of a Union Jack being flown. I'm nearly sure anyway.

Surely though, when Australia play in the International Rules matches, the Union Jack is on display as part of the Australian flag.

Just a thought, albeit slightly off current topic.

KOL

[Ash]

I was in Melbourne at the Comprimised Rules thingy and there was
a gang of Aussies beside us who covered the union jack part of their
flags with black gaffer tape.

Another crowd had a tri-colour sewn in over the union jack :)

[Dawn_Run]

If thats true, its pathetic. Surely there were a few Union Jacks present during the special olympics?

Does anyone know if there was as much hulabaloo when it was suggested that Croke Park be open for Compromised Rules, Concerts, Special Olympics?

[tetsujin1979]

If (big if) Croke Park is opened, at least one England team is going to play one game there in the 6 nations, if we draw England in the next set of qualifiers for Euro 2008, then that'll be 2 England teams playing here. Will they allow the Union Jack / St George's cross to be flown and GSTQ to be played?

[Peadar]

One of the problems GAA people had with Croker being opened was the potential of a Union Jack being flown.


What sport would that be then and indeed, what team?
The England rugby team?
The England football team?

[Peadar]

Here's (http://www.rebelgaa.com/rebelview/article.asp?AID=192) a article to stirr the debate a bit more and here's (http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/Full_Story/did-sgQQsTdVasRLQsgdq-nXlDAyFE.asp) some information on the British votes.

[Eire06]

Here's (http://www.rebelgaa.com/rebelview/article.asp?AID=192) a article to stirr the debate a bit more and here's (http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/Full_Story/did-sgQQsTdVasRLQsgdq-nXlDAyFE.asp) some information on the British votes.

Them Cork and British ones are all the same..... :rolleyes:
We should banish the lot of them

[Peadar]

We should banish the lot of them

No, please no, don't send us to Connaught!
I'd rather go to hell! :D

[Dotsy]

I can't beleive that these overseas delegates going to vote no :( . Somebody correct me if I am wrong but don't many of their teams play their games on pitches that belong to rugby and soccer clubs.

Didn't the GAA play an All Ireland football final in the 40's or 50's in the New York Polo grounds ( a baseball ground if I'm not mistaken).

Hypocrites the lot of them :mad:

[Cowboy]

No, please no, don't send us to Connaught!
I'd rather go to hell! :D

well you get to vote in Connaught, dont think hell has any votes in Congress unless the no camp invent a new delegate

[blobbyblob]

Rule 42 - The GAA will not be bullied! by Rebel14
http://www.rebelgaa.com/rebelview/article.asp?AID=192

I could well be mistaken, but I was under the impression that if somebody bought and paid for something, then it was theirs to do with what they pleased. The way some people are talking these days - I often do think that I may well be very seriously mistaken.

We knows this. This is not being debated.


In 1908 Frank Dineen purchased a 14-acre site from Maurice Butterly for the sum of £3,250. When the GAA subsequently bought the site from Dineen in 1913, Croke Park was born. Now, unless I've been so inane as to miss something along the way, I would be of the opinion that Croke Park is the property of the GAA. Yet, once again I may well be mistaken, as so many people insist that those outside the GAA have a right to the use of Croke Park. Many of these people hail from the FAI and IRFU, two organisations who had no hand in the purchasing of the 14-acre site in 1913. The development of the humble 14-acre site to one of Europe's finest stadiums was also done without the aid of the FAI or IRFU - or so fact and history would lead us to believe.

Neither the IRFU or FAI have ask for or bullied anyone. Croke Park is belonged to the GAA and the people of Ireland who have made it what it is.


These groups, or external onlookers as I like to call them, that are calling for the GAA to open the doors to its largest asset seem to have forgotten that Croke Park is not owned by the state. No, and I am fairly certain, that the GAA's headquarters belongs solely to, wait for it - the GAA! Now, as I said before, I may be mistaken - but the fact that the GAA owns Croke Park would lead me to believe that the GAA can do what they like with Croke Park.

What the GAA will do with Croke Park is another matter, and in my view a very drawn out one at this stage, but why they do it is very important indeed. The sooner the external onlookers who have no association with the GAA learn that Ireland's greatest sporting body will not be bullied the better. Indeed, the GAA and its members will not be bullied by those who have never picked up a sliotar in their life. Now I don't mean supporters of the FAI or IRFU who or also members of the GAA, I am specifically referring to those amongst us who have no time for the GAA unless the matter at hand is that of the debate over Rule 42.

The opening of Croke Park is a matter for the members of the GAA. Why? Let me tell you why - and I'll try not to be mistaken.

These externals are the people who play GAA and have voted (when allowed to vote) unanimously for the opening of Croke Park.


Croke Park was not built by taxpayer's money - but once again certain groups may not accept fact and history as legitimate grounds to base a point on. National lottery funding, revenue created by the Association itself, funds that the GAA were entitled to from the Government, and a huge reduction in expenditure due to amateurism are what paid for the development of Croke Park. The external onlookers are now wondering what I meant when I said funds that the GAA are entitled to from the Government. Without getting into the samey figures, the GAA is in my opinion entitled to Government grants on the grounds that they oblige the Irish Sports Council, are the stronghold of Irish identity and culture, and that they do not squander funding on ?golden handshakes? that only enrich those within their own administrative circles. Besides, the money that the Government granted the GAA to develop Croke Park flinches in the face of the ?292,000,000 that they are granting for the re-development of L

The GAA are entitled to Government funding the same as any organisation. The fact remains that Government funding comes from the taxpayers pocket. The ground has also being funded by the people of Ireland who pay at the gates of every GAA ground in the country year in year out. These are the same people who are calling for the opening of Croke Park



So, I think it's fair to say, unless I am inoperably mistaken, that Croke does actually belong to the GAA. The question that remains is - who are the members of the GAA, and who are the external onlookers that seem determined to bully the owners of Croke Park? Those of us who have GAA membership cards are obviously members of the GAA, as are those of us who go to nine matches a week, train four days under fading floodlights, work tirelessly to ensure that the club's Fé13 team shows up for their match, spends thousands of euro to support and keep our children playing Gaelic games, and, finally, those of us who know the difference between being a part of the Association and living for the Association. Those amongst us who go to the odd high profile Championship game, play when the lads need a fifteenth man, or buy a jersey because you like the colour are not members of the GAA.

Once again - Nobody is bullying. The GAA have an oppurtunity to make money to help make the GAA clubs of Ireland lives a little easier albeit helping out 'foreign' sports along the way. In this time of peace and reconcilliation, the GAA can push out the hand of friendship. It is no coincidence that most of Ulster is against the notion of soccer and/or rugby being displayed on the foreign turf.


All the GAA can do at this point is to ignore those who think they can bully it into making a decision that suits the external onlookers. Whether we should or shouldn't change Rule 42 is a matter for the GAA to decide - and no one from outside the Association will influence our decision on that.

God help us all. Some people cant see the wood from the trees. When all is said and done, i doubt if the FAI and IRFU will be marching on the GAA congress this weekend to bully anyone. The doors will be shut and the GAA will have the option to show how patriotic they really are.

[Metrostars]

I can't beleive that these overseas delegates going to vote no :( . Somebody correct me if I am wrong but don't many of their teams play their games on pitches that belong to rugby and soccer clubs.

Didn't the GAA play an All Ireland football final in the 40's or 50's in the New York Polo grounds ( a baseball ground if I'm not mistaken).

Hypocrites the lot of them :mad:


New York, who will be voting against the motions play at Gaelic Park in the Bronx which is owned by Manhattan College. Ironically the NY board is supposed to be developing a new facility at Randall's Island and they will also accomodate rugby (and probably soccer) on some of their fields there:


The design of the Sports Comples includes a covered stadium, seating for 10,000 spectators, regulation Gaelic foorball, hurling and rugby fields

http://rzaps.com/projects/gaelic_complex.htm?fp=4
So, I'm baffled by these guys down in New York. You're right, a bunch of f-king hypocrites.

[pete]

The GAA tend to only have 1 club per parish so all interest & funds get plowed into just 1 facility.

Football (FIFA variety) has probably too many clubs so facilities spread across much wider net. Football is had got probably 50 years to catch up.

Its interesting that the county that the GAA has the best stadium - Dublin & Croke Park is one - of the weaker playing counties which may suggest that the GAA need to reserve their facility for their own games to retain their own followers.

Would be interesting to see if the sight of irish international rugby & football teams playing home games in the UK would have any lasting backlash against the GAA from the average man/woman on the street. I for one will balme the current FF/PD government.

[gspain]

I think the undemocratic attempts by the GAA powers that be to ensure rule 42 stays put is pathetic. If they going to stop it then why not do so democractically. There will probably some situation where multiple issues to vote on to split vote & ensure is delayed for another year.

€20m to upgrade what the GAA claim is one best stadiums in Europe is also pathetic. Lansdowne has feck all segregation i.e. no fences or similar. IMO floodlights is also a non-issue as the FAI for example can arrange to play most home games at weekends when early start is possible.

:rolleyes:

I think it is very clear now why the past presidents tried to block the vote. They would be more in touch with the organisation and could clearly forsee there would be the current groundswell of support to open it up. Ditto for the Cork county board as they faced the prospect of losing the vote.

These people will justify their actions by knowing in their hearts what is best for the GAA

[dublinred]

Its looking like its going to need government intervention to get it through.

[Dawn_Run]

Its looking like its going to need government intervention to get it through.

I dunno - Bartholomew said yesterday that it is not the governments place to interfere in such matters. He did say that it would be bad if Irish internationals had to be played in the UK.

Despite being told to vote NO - I wonder will any of Corks delegates (or delegates from other NO counties) stand up and be counted and vote YES tomorrow?

[fosterdollar]

I'd be more concerned about whether the ballot is public or not. If it's private could have people reversing their support for opening when they don't have to justify it.

Either way, if a democratic vote maintains the rule, then the GAA will have gone down a path of exclusion thus alienating even more people. Their support in urban areas will further decline and elsewhere their decisions will be hard forgotten.

I never was a massive fan of the organisation and of the sports, hurling is the only one i would pay to see and get excited about watching. I would have no problem boycotting (for what little effect it would have) the GAA should they decide to continue applying this insane rule. However, by the same token, I would be against pushing the issue. I really don't like the apparent control over other sports being switched over to them. If they close their ground now then that's it. Rugby, Football, and all other orgainsations and supporters should concentrate on progressing without the GAA.

[Peadar]

I for one will balme the current FF/PD government.

This problem predates the current government and is some ways, every government since the state was formed.
Apportioning blame isn't going to achieve progress!
Let’s not get into an argument about who's at fault.
There is a strong sense of anti British ness in Ireland for primarily historical reasons. History belongs in books!
We need to lose this notion that we're still victims of a British tyranny.

The GAA has facilities which were funded and built by the people of Ireland. These facilities could be made available to other associations as a business opportunity but also as a sporting and social co-operation, for the benefit of the people of Ireland. The very people who play and attend GAA games, but also have interests in other sporting codes.

If the GAA believes that all its members are locked in some sort of a monogamous devotion to their games then they're sadly mistaken.
Sports lovers, love sport. Big balls, small balls, odd shaped balls, we love them all. It's not sinful and it's not going to change because of a long outdated rule.



Despite being told to vote NO - I wonder will any of Corks delegates (or delegates from other NO counties) stand up and be counted and vote YES tomorrow?


It's a secret ballot tomorrow. ;)

[gspain]

Despite being told to vote NO - I wonder will any of Corks delegates (or delegates from other NO counties) stand up and be counted and vote YES tomorrow?

No chance.

1) It is a far far bigger issue for the No campaign than the Yes campaign. Imagine if Clontarf RFC asked Shels today for use of Tolka Ollie would bite their hand off, Shels fans wouldn't even care or notice. Nice we get some money while the ground is lying empty but hey we're playing Bohs friday night and lets hope Glenn Crowe sticks one in. The Yes camp in the GAA see it as a good business proposition, ok don't like the bigots giving the whole organisation a bad name but it's not a life or death matter. The media are normally soft enough on the GAA anyway and won't be too harsh. Now for the No camp - it is attacking the whole Nationalist ethos of the GAA, 1916, Bloody sunday, Black and Tans, UJ flying over Croke Park ya de ya de ya......Guess who are most likely to break a democratic mandate.

2) The clubs have forced the hand of the county boards in many cases

3) It would be suicide in Cork to vote in favour and break Frano Murphy's line. See point 1 even if a delegate was in favour they are hardly likely to be that strongly in favour.

4) Last time Limerick broke mandate and voted by a 3/1 margin against. Approx 40 delgates rushed for the toilets presumably mandated Yes voters. there were no consequences for any of them.

[Terry]

I heard a limerick board member on the radio this morning saying "that the GAA would mad to open up croke park and leave the possability of seeing violence break out like that seen in milan during the week" :rolleyes:

[Macy]

This problem predates the current government and is some ways, every government since the state was formed.
The FF/PD coalitions record...

Failure to support eircom park, failure to build the Bertie Bowl, handing over money the night before the last chance of the rule getting changed influencing the decision, continued handing over of money with no strings attached.....

Of course they're blameless, or has Conor stolen your username?

[monutdfc]

...or has Conor stolen your username?
lol :D

[blobbyblob]

With the possible prospect of the motion not being carried, what kind of backlash would you expect?

[Eire06]

With the possible prospect of the motion not being carried, what kind of backlash would you expect?
It'll be like the MCCarthy Keane thing again but bigger ( Both soccer and GAA people involved )...
:eek:

[Dawn_Run]

With the possible prospect of the motion not being carried, what kind of backlash would you expect?

The birth of hurl.ie