Rule 42 Discussion

[blobbyblob]

Offally and Kildare joined the forces of good last night.

[stickyjoe]

GAA have to open it up while Landsdowne is being re-developed. if they dont it would be a suicidal PR disaster

i think their delegates are starting to wake up to that.

its a pity. i wudnt mind a few weekends in liverpool on the lash for ireland matches ;)

[Donal81]

I don't know too much about the leanings of individual counties but it's the ones with heavy voting power that you have to look out for. Also, it's likely that those in favour of it will get the majority but it's getting the two-thirds majority could be the undoing of the whole thing.

[tetsujin1979]

Limerick have said they will re-examine the proposals, and may consider a temporary opening.

[Terry]

Offally and Kildare joined the forces of good last night.

as did Galway at the start of this week :D

[Peadar]

So who are the remaining deviants?
Cork, I presume, is one of them?

[Dawn_Run]

So who are the remaining deviants?
Cork, I presume, is one of them?

Yeah - as far as i know the vote Cork is a biggie.

[blobbyblob]

Yeah - as far as i know the vote Cork is a biggie.


5 out of six in munster were against the original proposal. Kerry were always for. Tipp have changed their mind - huge decision.

I think Ulster will make or break it. Donegal was a massive boost.

[Terry]

So who are the remaining deviants?
Cork, I presume, is one of them?

all 6 counties in the north also, I think :confused:

[Eirambler]

all 6 counties in the north also, I think :confused:

Apart possibly from Down who are to vote on it next week, if they agree then the yes camp must be getting very close to 67%.

Overseas counties like english counties, Scotland and New York also have votes (likely to be in favour) as do the ex-presidents (no chance of them being in favour).

Even if its passed, the decision is then only given to a central council or something. What's the liklihood that they'll get the opportunity to open it and then decide not to?

[Eirambler]

This is the Irish Independants tally on the vote.

224 votes are required to get it through.



----------------------------------------------------

Leinster
In favour: Dublin 11, Meath 11, Wexford 11, Laois 10, Offaly 10, Kildare 9, Wicklow 8, Longford 6, Kilkenny 5, Carlow 5

To decide: Louth 6 (next Monday), Westmeath 6 (next week)

Prediction: 98 for, 0 against


Ulster
In favour: Donegal 7, Cavan 7

Against: Antrim 11, Tyrone 8, Derry 7, Fermanagh 6, Monaghan 6

To decide: Down 8, Armagh 7

Prediction: 14 for, 53 against


Munster
In favour: Waterford 7, Kerry 8, Tipperary 9, Clare 10

Against: Cork 11

To decide: Limerick 11 (next week)

Prediction: 45 for, 11 against


Connacht
In favour: Galway 10, Sligo 6, Roscommon 6, Leitrim 5

Against: Mayo (six votes) initially decided against changing Rule 42 but have given their delegates the facility to decide on the day

Prediction: 27 for, 6 against


Schools/Colleges /Handball
Difficult to assess where votes will go.

Prediction: 3 for, 2 against


Past Presidents
Ten past presidents can vote. Eight, possibly nine, will vote against

Prediction: 1 for, 9 against


Mgmt Committee
The 11 members of Mgmt include the four provincial chairmen of whom three would be in favour

Prediction: 5 for, 6 against


Overseas

Prediction: 36 for, 20 against

TOTAL For 229 Against 107
* The voting strength of a county is dependent on the number of registered clubs. One delegate is appointed for every 10 clubs in the county, subject to a maximum of 10 delegates and a minimum of four. In addition, each county board is also entitled to send their central council delegate

* Some Central Council delegates may not vote the same way as their counties

-----------------------------------------------------------

So basically, it looks set to go through. Just.

[blobbyblob]

TOTAL For 229 Against 107


So basically, it looks set to go through. Just.


Not a lot of latitude there.

[gspain]

Interesting analysis on Rule 42.

It does look promising. That is a big shift in Munster with the likes of Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford. Meath is also a big change although I believe their main nutcase left the county board last year although the guy who took the jersey off Gary Rogers for playing for Drogheda is still there.

Anyone know the past president in favour? I hope they are not naive enough to think it is Quinn.

A few points to consider though

Many of the delegates will personally not approve of their mandate. They may do one of the following as per 2001

1) As per Limerick delegates folllow their conscience, ignore the mandate and vote No

2) Need to visit the toilet urgently just before the vote.

Still it does look positive.

Nice to see only 3 counties in the Republic actually oppose our national football team playing in Croke Park.

This would be aseismic shift in GAA thinking.

[gspain]

Interesting article in today's Indo.

If it turns out to be the case this would be completely comical. The clear implication is that many delegates won't like their mandate and will "find a way" to defeat the proposal.

If down have voted No as well it would mean all 6 countie sin Northern Ireland have voted NO and only 3 of the 26 counties in the Republic are not voting Yes.


Confusion over motions could scupper move to open Croker

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THE tide may be turning towards a relaxation of Rule 42, but confusion at Congress over a number of issues could still scupper the proponents of change.

As Kildare and Offaly swelled the ranks of counties now favourably disposed to transferring power over the use of Croke Park from Congress to Central Council on a temporary basis while Lansdowne Road is being redeveloped, questions have arisen over which motion the counties have been mandated to back.

Of the seven motions on the Congress clár relating to Croke Park, three of them - from Longford, Kerry and Cavan - call for permanent change to Rule 42.

Roscommon are seeking a three-year suspension and a review in 2008 with immediate effect, while the Clare, Sligo and Wicklow motions all specifically mention change for the duration of the re-development of Lansdowne Road.

It appears that counties which have voted in favour of change are backing one of the motions that incorporate the redevelopment of the IRFU's headquarters.

But some have already voted to back the Roscommon motion which seeks a three-year derogation.

If counties are mandated to back a particular motion like Roscommon's, does that mean that they can oppose the other Rule 42 motions if they choose?

If they are bound by that commitment, the 'yes' vote could conceivably fall between two stools.

These predicaments are known to be of concern to some of the counties which have succeeded in putting motions relating to Croke Park on the agenda and there is a suggestion now that these 'pro' counties will meet in advance of the Congress vote on Saturday week to explore the best strategy for overcoming this problem.

The other vexed question which is sure to be raised in advance of Congress or on the day is whether the Central Council delegates are committed to voting the same way as the counties they represent if a mandate is in place.

The Central Council delegates represent the views of their counties at Central Council meetings, but whether that follows on to Congress is open to interpretation.

Many Central Council delegates are of the view that they represent their counties at Central Council level, but at Congress they represent the Central Council and therefore have their own voting rights.

Congress has a history of Central Council delegates voting differently on issues to their county representatives and there would be no shortage of strong-minded men who would follow their own instincts.

A third issue that also threatens emotive debate on the day of Congress is the system of voting.

A semi secret ballot, where delegates would write down their votes which would then be verified by the relevant county chairman to ensure the mandate has been adhered to, has been suggested. However, the pro change counties are likely to push for an open show of hands for ultimate transparency.

The 'yes' votes may be piling in, but the counties favouring change will hardly sense a victory yet because of these issues.

Tyrone became the latest Ulster county on Tuesday night to approve a recommendation that Rule 42 should remain unchanged.

Down were due to discuss the issue last night, but there will be no vote among the club delegates. The County Board's executive will decide on what stance to take after taking "soundings" from the clubs during the meeting.

Derry are also due to discuss the opening of Croke Park to rugby and soccer tonight, while Armagh will debate the issue next Wednesday night when clubs will be given their say.

A firm 'no' is predicted from all three counties, meaning that seven of the nine Ulster counties will be in the 'no' camp.

Interestingly, the Cork County Board are also due to debate the issue on Tuesday night, while there is a feeling that Mayo, who originally opted against change, may bow to pressure from clubs to re-open the debate next week and look at backing one of the temporary motions.

The crucial eight New York votes are also due to be decided on tonight, while all of the British Boards are due to vote early next week.

Meanwhile, the Allianz NFL finals on April 24 will definitely go ahead in Croke Park, according to the stadium director Peter McKenna. McKenna said that two thirds of the 'blanket' covering the pitch during the reseeding process had now been removed.

He accepted that the surface would not be in absolute mint condition however. "I don't think we can expect to see it at its best until early to mid May," he said.

The GAC were due to decide on the venues for the NFL semi-finals at a meeting last night and an announcement will be made today.

[Dawn_Run]

Down have voted NO. The motion was defeated by 21 votes to 20.

Edit:
<from rte.ie> Seven of the Ulster counties are now in opposition to Roscommon's and Sligo's motions for change.

All 12 Leinster counties want Croke Park to be opened.

Cork are the only dissenting county in Munster, however, Limerick have yet to decide on their stance.

In Connacht, Mayo and Leitrim have also yet to vote, with the remaming counties in favour of an amendment.

Congress votes on the matter on April 16, with a two-thirds majority needed to pass a motion.

[eirebhoy]

Why are all the N.Irish counties voting no? Is it because they're mainly opening it for the Republic to play there and if N.Ireland had no Winsdor Park, Croker wouldn't be open? Just a suggestion. :)

[Lionel Ritchie]

As appealing as the notion of our team running out in a stadium that befits them is-as does one of the calibre of "headquarters" -I've decided I don't want the GAA to benefit from Irelands football games.

I'm pretty certain they'll rustle up enough rednecks to oppose it any event or, as someone suggested, to nip out to the jacks at an inopportune moment.

I also think this is an opportune time to pay back the loyalty of all our UK based Irish. So lets play a campaign -or two even -out of Highbury, Anfield, Old trafford ...wherever.

I know it means a lot of pubs and B&Bs in and around Dublin lose out but how bad. Not our fault.

[Stuttgart88]

Having to play our home games in the UK would be a national embarassment, but might just be the lesat bad outcome..

Currently having to play our home games in a delapidated crock like Lansdowne is a national embarrassment.

The attitude of most in the GAA is a national embarrassment.

Not having the foresight to build a normal national sports stadium during the boom years, or even before, is a disgrace, and guess what, a national embarrassment.

The whole bloody thing is an embarrassment. :(

The GAA doing the right thing would only give a false impression of the whole fiasco. This issue should have been addressed years ago. The Bertie Bowl was never feasible. Eircom Park was closer to the mark IMO but my memory of the whole political nonsense has faded now.

[elroy]

I have to slightly agree. Although I think it is a huge shame that it has come to this, I can see nothing but trouble with rugby and football being played in croker. No doubt they'll charge ridiculous rents and as well as that we all know what a stubborn bunch the gaa can be.
Plus I think if the internationals are played abroad for a year or two, it will put pressure on the gov/fai/irfu/construction company to have the stadium completed as quick as possible. If the games are being played in croker, such pressure will not exist.

[elroy]

Having to play our home games in the UK would be a national embarassment, but might just be the lesat bad outcome..

Currently having to play our home games in a delapidated crock like Lansdowne is a national embarrassment.

The attitude of most in the GAA is a national embarrassment.

Not having the foresight to build a normal national sports stadium during the boom years, or even before, is a disgrace, and guess what, a national embarrassment.

The whole bloody thing is an embarrassment. :(

The GAA doing the right thing would only give a false impression of the whole fiasco. This issue should have been addressed years ago. The Bertie Bowl was never feasible. Eircom Park was closer to the mark IMO but my memory of the whole political nonsense has faded now.


I think financially EP would have had the fai on its knees, but with the situation as it is now, they couldve being taking rents off the IRFU and the gov would prob helped them out too. After all plenty of funds were given the gaas way. The whole thing was abandoned due to the huge false promises made by Bertie Ahern.

[Littlest Hobo]

Having to play our home games in the UK would be a national embarassment, but might just be the lesat bad outcome..

Currently having to play our home games in a delapidated crock like Lansdowne is a national embarrassment.

The attitude of most in the GAA is a national embarrassment.

Not having the foresight to build a normal national sports stadium during the boom years, or even before, is a disgrace, and guess what, a national embarrassment.

The whole bloody thing is an embarrassment. :(

The GAA doing the right thing would only give a false impression of the whole fiasco. This issue should have been addressed years ago. The Bertie Bowl was never feasible. Eircom Park was closer to the mark IMO but my memory of the whole political nonsense has faded now.

Agree with you there...we''ll be a laughing stock, if it means playing our home games in anfield, etc..

The whole thing stinks of utter incompetence on the part of FAI/Gov :mad: . Bertie and his fcuking bowl :rolleyes:

Hope the fools at GAA vote in our favour. Who are we waiting on for crucial votes...cork :confused:

[blobbyblob]

The attitude of most in the GAA is a national embarrassment.

I'll have to take issue with that. Most of the GAA(more than 50%) are in favour of opening Croke Park. The obstacle that we are faced with is we need to reach >66%.

Dont tar them all with the same brush.

[pete]

I won't tell the GAA want to do cos have no right but...

Idea of democracy in the GAA is laughable. AFAIK counties vote on issue & send their delegates to congress to vote on the matter. My understanding of delegates is that they are supposed to express the views of their voters (from their county) yet the GAA allow delegates vote in a secret ballot. This can mean that delegates can vote whichever what they choose in opposition to opinion of their county.

IMO the GAA have completely stuffed up. By opening Croke Park for 2 years they are basically helping rugby & football get their own stadium. The GAA could have opened Croke Park a few years ago & locked the FAI & IRFU into permanent tenancy & made 5-10m per year + maybe a once off government "grant" which would mean could upgrade their shabby regional stadiums.

So funny that the GAA see everything different as a threat when Rugby League in Australia rented out their stadiums for rugby union World Cup - perfect examples for threats to each other.

Corks continuation of opposing opening Croke Park is embarishing.

[Peadar]

Who are we waiting on for crucial votes...cork :confused:


We're not waiting on Cork, we already know they've voted against it.
All the information you need is somewhere on this thread.

[elroy]

Thats cos cork are the perfect example of the gaa 'democracy'. Frank murphy has being at the helm there for years and no sign of a change. He's not elected to the position either. The vast majority of members and people in cork want croker opened, says alot about the gaa

[gspain]

I'll have to take issue with that. Most of the GAA(more than 50%) are in favour of opening Croke Park. The obstacle that we are faced with is we need to reach >66%.

Dont tar them all with the same brush.

I'm sure it is 90%+ in the GAA particularly in the Republic (looks like only 3 of 26 opposed and Mayo may still move after pressure from clubs) when you talk about ordinary members.

However it is a majority of thos ein power who oppose change. At least 9 of the 10 past presidents (still can't find out who the other potential non bigot is apart from current president Kelly), many of the delegates will personally oppose opening it up despite their mandate and an Open Vote will be needed and maybe wait for a few guys who need to visit the toilet urgently to come back.

Now I understand why the past presidents were so keen to block the vote. Being in the organisation and particularly those in the Republic could clearly see the groundswell towards progress which is there.

They will have some tricks up their sleeves. The obvious one is a meeting of the "conservative2 delegates with a mandate and to organise them to all strictly interpret their mandate - vote in favour on different motions and then vote against all the others.

As for Cork well they've been the same for years - Frank Murphy rules the roost and he makes Osama Bin Laden look like a modern moderate.

[Peadar]

As for Cork well they've been the same for years - Frank Murphy rules the roost and he makes Osama Bin Laden look like a modern moderate.


As Limerick have yet to vote, you still live in a "glass house." Careful where you throw them stones now.

[Littlest Hobo]

We're not waiting on Cork, we already know they've voted against it.
All the information you need is somewhere on this thread.

Ta for that ;)
Bit of a conscientious wee fellow...arn't we there peadar lad.

Anyway, Hows the brylecream holding up son ;)

[Peadar]

Anyway, Hows the brylecream holding up son ;)


Get yourself into Covent Garden tonight and you'll see for yourself. ;)

[Littlest Hobo]

Get yourself into Covent Garden tonight and you'll see for yourself. ;)

An old post i picked up from somewhere....
Mr Peadar strutting is stuff ere :rolleyes:
Forget Covent Garden lad....Soho is the only place for the likes of you ;)


Peadar
Seasoned Pro Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Reading, Berkshire, England
Posts: 4,148

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccfcman
Peadar is a different case he's in UK so be weary of his tips


Oi! I'm only over here on a mission.
Teaching Landaners a thing or two about style.
__________________
Have Boot Disk, will travel

[thejollyrodger]

I hope the GAA do decide to open Croke Park on a temporary basis. Its good for the GAA and good for ireland.

The foreign vote has to come in and they will probably vote yes seeing that they use soccer pitches abroad.

It should be opened providing the yes vote gets its vote in gear and have one motion that everyone can agree on.

Rugby would be brilliant in Croker, soccer might not be as great but still better than going abroad.

[gspain]

As Limerick have yet to vote, you still live in a "glass house." Careful where you throw them stones now.

No double standards here. We have our lunatics in Limerick too. Limerick were mandated to vote in favour in 2001 and voted 3-1 against. Limerick are also reconsidering their original decision to vote against perhaps with a little pressure from a gentleman with an interest in Man Utd and Limerick hurling. Same gentleman offered to bankroll a whole stadium if they'd allow in Football and rugby "thanks but no thanks" was the reply. So yes we have so absolute nutjobs in Limerick too as well as reasonable GAA folk. - throwing 17 yearolds out of a car halfway between Limerick and Ennis for playing for Fairview, organising and succeeding in cancelling a planned school halfday when realising it would allow the kids to see an Irish game on tv. Limerick will vote in favour although a few delegates may have weak bladders when it comes to the vote at congress.

I do think Frank and to a less extent Con Murphy are special though. We had members of the Cork County board trying to outdo each other last time in their opposition - Dan hoare on about not letting them into the carpark and John Motherway talking about the spirit of 1916 etc etc. One of our travelling party to both Paris and Tel Aviv is a county board officer and they would no longer be a county board officer if Frank Murphy ever found out where they were. However he wouldn't even be aware of the games.

[Stuttgart88]

Same gentleman offered to bankroll a whole stadium if they'd allow in Football and rugby "thanks but no thanks" was the reply.

Can you give a bit more detail on that please? Again, my recollection is only very vague.

I know it's totally naive, but I've always felt that Ireland's uber-rich (Smurfit, O'Reilly...) could have done something. The only things that I can see them ever having "given back" are vulgar, narcissistic monuments to their own success (K-Club, eponymous business schools...).

Maybe I'm wrong, esp about O'Reilly, though I doubt it in Smurfit's case.

[Donal81]

Can you give a bit more detail on that please? Again, my recollection is only very vague.

I know it's totally naive, but I've always felt that Ireland's uber-rich (Smurfit, O'Reilly...) could have done something. The only things that I can see them ever having "given back" are vulgar, narcissistic monuments to their own success (K-Club, eponymous business schools...).

Maybe I'm wrong, esp about O'Reilly, though I doubt it in Smurfit's case.

There's a library in DCU named after O'Reilly's parents. One of the Man Utd pair, can't remember which but I think it's Magnier, has a scholarship and things like that in his old school. I think I remember someone offering to build a national stadium, only rumours, though.

[gspain]

Can you give a bit more detail on that please? Again, my recollection is only very vague.

I know it's totally naive, but I've always felt that Ireland's uber-rich (Smurfit, O'Reilly...) could have done something. The only things that I can see them ever having "given back" are vulgar, narcissistic monuments to their own success (K-Club, eponymous business schools...).

Maybe I'm wrong, esp about O'Reilly, though I doubt it in Smurfit's case.

I don't think this ever went public but it is from a very reliable source.

JP McManus was approached by the Limerick county board a few years back to make a donation towards the revamp of the Gaelic Grounds. He offered to bankroll the whole thing if they'd let Munster rugby and Limerick FC use it too and make it a proper sports stadium for Limerick.

His first love is hurling and I believe South Liberties facilities are second to none and he eventually did donate €5 million to the GG project anyway.

[Peadar]

I think that when Campus Ireland was being discussed, J.P. McManus offered a "gift" of IR£50,000,000 (EUR€63,486,902)
That's probably what you're thinking of?

[Donal81]

I think that when Campus Ireland was being discussed, J.P. McManus offered a "gift" of IR£50,000,000 (EUR€63,486,902)
That's probably what you're thinking of?

That must be it. That McManus story in Limerick is quite sad, really. When is this conference on again, this week?

[gspain]

I think that when Campus Ireland was being discussed, J.P. McManus offered a "gift" of IR£50,000,000 (EUR€63,486,902)
That's probably what you're thinking of?

That is a different offer. That was purely for a national stadium and a public offer.

The other offer was private and could have been done within GAA rules if there was a will there. However when you are dealing with people who will openly go against a mandare from their own county what do you expect?

[NeilMcD]

The oul GAA club where we sported and played is not unusual in that it finds itself spending more money in a week than it comes across in a fortnight. So fundraising is an ongoing fact of life and bank heists are a possibility.



The latest wheeze is a forum for elite athletes to be held next Saturday in DCU at the same time as the GAA Congress unfolds with all its scintillating speechifying just down the road in Croker.

The ironies of course are heavy enough even for a sports journalist to notice. Depending on which way you walk, St Vincent's is probably the nearest GAA ground to Croke Park. We get a nice view of the stadium and often when I'm sitting in the press box in that same stadium I look over and locate the club by means of its graceful (but very expensive to run) floodlights.

While the GAA debates whether to keep Croke Park for itself next Saturday, a golfer (Padraig Harrington), a rower (Sam Lynch), a sailor (Aaron O'Grady) and a runner (Catherina McKiernan) as well as Kieran McGeeney and Henry Shefflin will be giving their time to help a GAA club keep going.

Funny thing is that not one of those contacted to take part needed more than a phone call to persuade them. Even the sixth-best golfer in the world just said, "Yeah, no problem," with such serene grace that we kept waiting for him to call back to say he'd made a dreadful mistake.

Luminaries from rugby and soccer were invited too but next Saturday is a busy day in the professional games and they declined regretfully. Nobody threw Rule 42 into the discussion. Nobody accused us of having necks harder than Ruby Walsh's backside. All did what they could. It is sport after all.

While the blazered chieftains gather in Croker next Saturday to discuss the future uses of their big field, St Vincent's of Marino won't be the only GAA club fundraising. Up and down the country clubs will be peddling lottos and bingos and quiz nights and céilí nights and golf classics and race nights and fumbling in the greasy till for just about anything that can be used to buy a few sliotars and footballs.

A few years ago in Vincent's we marked the juvenile pitch out in squares and inserted a huge brown cow who waddled around the grid for the afternoon while wagers were made on where Daisy would dump. Many people said the cow's lack of pace, poor positional sense and failure to deliver brought them back to the days when I played full forward for the junior Bs.

Anyway, night fell before the stage-struck animal delivered anything hot and steamy. We gave thanks, decommissioned Daisy and thought of Archbishop Croke and wondered if this counted as an occasion of sin.

The constipated cow was Irish and so was the grass she digested. We could not then be accused of ". . . daily importing from England not only her manufactured goods, which we cannot help doing, since she practically strangled our own manufacturing appliances, but together with her fashions, her accents, her vicious literature, her music, her dances, and her manifold mannerisms, her games also and her pastimes, to the utter discredit of our own grand national sports, and to the sore humiliation, as I believe, of every genuine son of the old land."

Phew! It was s**t on our field but it wasn't soccer (sure, sure, as a Leeds fan I sometimes find it hard to know the difference, but that's a lament for another day.) We all owe a lot to Archbishop Croke and his rousing letter exhorting the populace to return to such racy pursuits as "leaping in various ways", "top pegging" and "top in the hop" (sorry, Bish, I'm just not that sort of gal), but that charter belonged to a different, more tremulous time. As did the Ban, which entered the GAA's rule book a century ago this year. As did Michael Collins, who was firm in his wish to protect the Gael from the evils of soccer and believed it was the intention of the Crown to destroy Irish culture. "The peaceful penetration of Ireland," as the big fella called it.

Left to our own devices we've done a grand wrecking-ball job on Irish culture ourselves but football and hurling survive and prosper and it's time to place a little confidence in their innate durability. The end of the Ban didn't consume the games.

Television didn't kill them. Sponsorship and advertising didn't wither them. Ireland playing in three soccer World Cups didn't make them go away. Renting the field out to Neil Diamond didn't smite them.

Irish people watching rugby or soccer in Croke Park won't damage the games either. (And of course originality not being any concern of this column, it's worth saying that if they don't watch those games in Croke Park the cunning divils will watch them someplace else anyway.) What it might do is provide some funds for the games, for the coaching of the games, for the evangelisation. Two-thirds of any rental windfall should be put aside just for the employment of hurling coaches. The other third for football coaches. Chuck some money at camogie and women's football too. The potential for growth there is only starting to be tapped.

What happens in Croke Park next Saturday is about the GAA's confidence in its own standing within the culture. It can continue to be an organisation ever tolerant of the vices of itself and the virtues of others or it can change with the confidence that Croke and Cusack and the boys would have wished for it 100 years on.

A century past from the institution of the Ban do we believe we have nurtured an oak or an orchid? The stadium in which the vote will take place is a brick-and-mortar symbol of a certain confidence. Using that stadium for the fullest benefit of the broad GAA community would be a flesh-and-blood sign of deep confidence from the blazers.

By now all the other arguments are redundant. The patriotism angle is a bust. The "public purse contribution" business is a canard. Frank Brazil Dineen bought Jones' Road for the GAA a century ago for £3,250 and since that bold move those few acres have given more to the Irish people than the Irish people have given to Croke Park.

The threat to open up all GAA grounds isn't a starter. I don't know of a club ground which isn't overused already.

There's no value either in sifting through the entrails of the various unfortunate events which reduce the FAI and the IRFU (rugby's blazers are, incidentally, almost blameless in the husbandry of their resources) to scouring the For Rent ads.

We're all in the state we are in for better or worse and if the past matters so much that it shackles and hobbles the GAA, well than the GAA has failed. In the 100 years since the Ban was formally slipped into the rule book as an expression of what was perhaps a necessary protectionist mentality, the GAA will have managed to erase the Ban only from the rule book not from its mind.

The association can cower behind the door like an oul wan peering out with the latch chain on. Or the stadium can be placed on the world map. The games and the plain people who play them and love them are owed the latter. It's time for the GAA to stand up and refuse to cut its noses off to spite its face.

It's so simple. Abolish Rule 42 and if the new Lansdowne Road is ever built (this column isn't alone in doubting he'll live to see it) international rugby and soccer will slip back across the river, leaving the GAA wealthier and with a central, undisputed and unbegrudged place at the centre of Irish life.

Or the GAA can slip back a century or so. The association can point out that it's no business of the GAA if soccer and rugby fans must pass near a locked Croke Park on their way to the North Wall to catch the boat to see national teams play in Blighty. The GAA can keep pleading that what other associations do is no business of any true Gael. There's a certain stubborn logic in that stance. The same logic which presents us with a view of a clump of ostrich arse when the bird buries its head in the sand.

Next Saturday can be a confident step forward or a shameful shuffle backward.It can be glasnost or it can be ghastly. What happens in Croke Park will affect how a lot of people feel about the GAA for years to come. The GAA has the chance to confound its critics, to step up and sing. More than that it has the opportunity to remove forever the need for columnists to blatantly plug club fundraisers right at the end of their column.

[blobbyblob]

Funny and Fact - Stand up and take a bow that man.

[Dawn_Run]

Latest Voting:

Antrim-NO
Louth, Kilkenny, Leitrim,-YES

Crunch time tonight as Cork and Limerick county boards vote.

[Peadar]

Crunch time tonight as Cork and Limerick county boards vote.

Limerick are having a secret ballot, for a change, which might allow people to vote without feeling peer pressure.

[Peadar]

How many yes votes will result in Croke Park opening to soccer??

Don't you mean, "how many yes votes will result in Croke Park opening up, being discussed?"

One step at a time TP. ;)

[Dawn_Run]

As far as I can see - all of the votes that are going on at the moment will mean sweet FA if the GAA decide to have a secret ballot at the GAA Congress next saturday. In secret, representatives will be able to vote as they wish and in effect ignore the mandate. This is surely not democracy

[Macy]

Wouldn't get too carried away with all the yes votes. Apparently many delegates likely to vote no, despite their county boards decisions. Good old GAA style democracy...

[Peadar]

all of the votes that are going on at the moment will mean sweet FA if the GAA decide to have a secret ballot at the GAA Congress next saturday.

That's pretty much been suggested towards the end of this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/northern_ireland/gaelic_games/4435607.stm) too.

[Donal81]

Right, I haven't the time to read everything on this . . . so can someone sum up the state of play please? How many yes votes will result in Croke Park opening to soccer??

From the BBC article above, "The overall amount of votes at Congress will be 335 which will leave 224 as the figure needed to endorse change given the two-thirds requirement."

[Dawn_Run]

Limerick met last night and voted YES
Cork didnt meet last night but have decided to vote NO. Dont know how they came to that decision.

Although I am 110% for the opening of Croker, having listened to the Cork Representative on the news yesterday he made some valid points, one in particular I have some sympathy with. He says that Cork have received nothing from the GAA as to how the opening of Croke Park will benefit clubs at county level. No indication has been given as to how/if the funds made from opening up will be dispersed.

A valid point but still its only an excuse for their narrowmindedness IMO.

[Don Vito]

Someone out there mite be better on GAA politics than me:

Suppose the vote goes through, does this mean Croke Park will definitely be opened or is the vote just to give the power to Central Council to open it?

And will it remain shut until Lansdown shuts in 2006 or could it be available for the autumn?

[cullenswood]

Someone out there mite be better on GAA politics than me:

Suppose the vote goes through, does this mean Croke Park will definitely be opened or is the vote just to give the power to Central Council to open it?

And will it remain shut until Lansdown shuts in 2006 or could it be available for the autumn?

As far as I know it will mean that it will be allowed (under the GAA rules) to be opened up. Whether it is or not will be up to the FAI or IRFU actually asking to use it, and then agreeing terms with the GAA. This may or may not happen.