'Final Deal' Will it be as big as GFA? [Archive]

liam88

07/12/2004, 5:52 PM

Will a final deal in the North over the next couple of weeks be as big and as groundbreaking a move towards peace as the GFA?
As far as I understand it the 3 main factors are restoration of devolution, demiliterisation and decommissioning of IRA arms.
I'm presuming the people to put pen-to-paper will be Bertie, Blair, Adams and Paisley (open to correction-i'm trying to get an overview of it).
Possibility of prisoners being released being dicussend on the other thread-I think an equally imnportant question as should they be released is will they be released.....presumbley that ball rests in the court of Bertie Ahern and FF?
Demiliterisation will bring the troops levels out there to (open to correction) the lowest since 1969.
What I'm a bit confused about is why is there a much bigger pressure on the IRA to disarm than the UDA?

Fair_play_boy

07/12/2004, 9:53 PM

What I'm a bit confused about is why is there a much bigger pressure on the IRA to disarm than the UDA?A ton of semtex is probably the answer to that. The UDA does not have high explosives AFAIK.

dortie

08/12/2004, 9:07 AM

What I'm a bit confused about is why is there a much bigger pressure on the IRA to disarm than the UDA?

Exactly they are still 'armed' to the teeth and are never even mentioned.

Macy

08/12/2004, 9:15 AM

Exactly they are still 'armed' to the teeth and are never even mentioned.
It's one of the great mysteries to me why Sinn Fein don't make more of that fact.

Rovers Fellow!

08/12/2004, 9:54 AM

Hugh Orde, the head of ruc//psni, has recently stated that the UDA are likely to split. That is a very worrying development, but typically its been swept under the carpet. Im sure adams and co bring up the UDA issue in the talks. The UDA have been actively murdering catholics and its own people in recent years and of course behind continuing sectarian attacks on nationalist areas, including the school few years ago. Its sickening that they almost always get away with it. Its well known that many of them are british agents anyway.

drinkfeckarse

08/12/2004, 10:55 AM

It's one of the great mysteries to me why Sinn Fein don't make more of that fact.

Have to say myself, I always wondered why the big deal about the I.R.A. disarming was always mentioned but never the U.D.A etc.

Never really asked in case I had missed something stupid. :o Abviously not.

It's a valid point if you ask me.

liam88

08/12/2004, 3:13 PM

Never really asked in case I had missed something stupid. :o Abviously not.

Exactly!
Well that eejit pa*sley has just fe*ked any hope of deal with his push to "Smash Sinn Fein" and make Republicans "wear sack-cloth and ashes".......what a dick!

Peace and paisley......the two words just on't seem to go together

Aye strange that Cahtolics still being murdered by the UDA in the North and nothing on UK news but ya can bet your last Euro that if a Protestant, RUC Officer or British soldier was murdered by the IRA it's be front-page stuff :mad:

drinkfeckarse

08/12/2004, 3:20 PM

I think Paisley has always been a bit of a laughing stock really although what's worrying is the amount of support he now commands.

I never really had a problem with Trimble as such but Paisley has always been a figure of fun to me.

liam88

08/12/2004, 5:32 PM

9:00 Joint government statement
10:00 IRA statement "All IRA voulentters have been given specific insturctions not to engage in any activity which might thereby endanger the new agreement"
11:00 IICD statement
12:00 DUP statement
13:00 SF statement on policing
14:30 Prime Ministers hold press conference in Belfast (announcing endgame)

That was the plan for today. PEace could have been secured tonight.....put Paisley comes out with his "sack cloth and ashes" crap and screws the deal!
Most people on our island want peace now but it's NEVER going to work with this eejit!

Jon'o

08/12/2004, 6:08 PM

Am I the only one thinking 'why couldn't the IRA manage one fecking photograph'? I mean, if they SAID they were doing it, an old picture wouldn't have been too hard surely? I accept that Paisley is a stumbling block, and a ****** too, but the fact that an illegal organisation continues to hold a lot of guns for the purposes of killing is also relevant - Paisley isn't doing all this for the craic...

yeah but ONE photo would not be enough for paisley, he would prob come out with some sh*te that there were more weapons.... cant win either way he's just there to wreck things GIT :mad:

patsh

08/12/2004, 7:19 PM

Am I the only one thinking 'why couldn't the IRA manage one fecking photograph'? I mean, if they SAID they were doing it, an old picture wouldn't have been too hard surely? I think the same way, but Paisley has asked for a hell of a lot more than a photograph. Whatever, I think deep down that the DUP are not ready yet to accept croppies about the place. I'm disgusted that the IRA couldn't agree to the event being filmed, because I think when it came down to it, Paisley simply would have found some other excuse, and at last the world could see that he is every bit as bad and, to use the current word in vogue, "evil" as the IRA.

sylvo

08/12/2004, 11:30 PM

Have to say myself, I always wondered why the big deal about the I.R.A. disarming was always mentioned but never the U.D.A etc.

Never really asked in case I had missed something stupid. :o Abviously not.

It's a valid point if you ask me.

Not forgetting the ten's of thousands of leagally held firearms held by Unionists, I have not heard anything about them being asked to hand them in or show pictures of them being destroyed. :confused:

A face

08/12/2004, 11:58 PM

It's one of the great mysteries to me why Sinn Fein don't make more of that fact.

I always though it was a "pot calling kettle" thing, in that ... if they go pointing the finger then they'll have to be seen to stopping all activity themselves. They would be committing themselves !!

A face

09/12/2004, 12:03 AM

yeah but ONE photo would not be enough for paisley, he would prob come out with some sh*te that there were more weapons.... cant win either way he's just there to wreck things GIT :mad:

Of course one photo wouldn't be enough. What is wanted/needed to prove that weapons are put beyond use would be a full record of it and some sort of tangible proof. In fairness ... for all his ramblings, Paisley doesn't want pics to look at ... its the whole weapons not ever being used again side of it that he is getting at.

Paisley mouth has always caused trouble, no one is new to that. It just to see who takes the baite and gets all agro over it.

Pat O' Banton

09/12/2004, 4:12 AM

Why does Paisley need photos? Is the word of an international monitoring board not good enough for him? We all know that he wants the photos so he can turn around and say 'look I got this done the UUP couldn't and it was me who humiliaeted the fenians' I don't exactly understand why anyone thinks the IRA are in the business of handing the DUP more votes.

Moreover Paisley knows that this will not be agreed to and lets face it he's getting on, does he really want his political tombstone to say 'i shared power with Sinn Fein'?

dortie

09/12/2004, 9:12 AM

Why should the IRA surrender its arms when the British Army are still heavily present, helicopters, fortifications, mobile patrols. Why should the IRA disarm when the UFF and UVF still have their weapons. Why should the IRA disarm when Unionists have legally held guns ?

Paisley simply wants a complete surrender from the IRA.

fosterdollar

09/12/2004, 9:27 AM

Paisley is just being his usual provocative contrary self. It's such a shame that he's the one holding the majority vote on the UNionist side. IMO Sinn Fein do not want to provide a series of photographs because inevitably they will be used as cavassing material for the DUP in the future and waved in people's faces as the 'monstrous cache from IRA's evil operations'. Fact is, an international committee would oversee the decommissiong along with members of protestant and catholic clergy. Their word should be proof enough that the decommissioning happened. FFS photographs can be doctored and constructed far easier than neutral by-standers. It obvious why the DUP want the photos - and it has absolutely nothing to do with having proof of decommissioning.

liam88

09/12/2004, 9:36 PM

Exactly-the git ADMITTED that he wanted to "humilate" the IRA and Republicans all over........we'll never have peace with him aroind.
Gerry Adams, much as i'm not his biggest fan-i have to say that he had grown up and realised he's to old to be playing soldiers....Paisley is still singing 'no surrender' post-1998 :mad: Someone needs to tell him it's over it's time to end-Gerry Adams admits it's the end of the day and the suns going down on this conflict.......when is Paisley going to accept this?

Éanna

09/12/2004, 9:58 PM

Paisley is still singing 'no surrender' post-1998 :mad:
at least Paisley is being honest. you know where you stand with him. Trimble pretended to be diplomatic and compromising, when in reality he just didn't have the :ball: :ball: to say what he thought. Trimble was as bad as any DUP bigot, as McGuinness said they just "don't want a fenian about the place."

As for the issue of why there's no pressure on the UDA etc to disarm, the argument is totally straightforward as far as I can see. the IRA are linked to Sinn Féin. SF want into government. The deal is that they don't get into government while the IRA has guns. The UDA (or any other loyalist paramilitary group) are not linked to either the DUP or the UUP (at least not in the way SF and the IRA are) so it doesn't come into it. I'm sure if any of the smaller loyalist parties which "represent" loyalist paramilitaries wanted to form part of the government they'd be told the same. It is a valid point in fairness, much as I hate saying it. Of course demilitarisation should happen in tandem with this, and there should NOT be an attempt to humiliate anyone, but I think the time has come for the IRA to take the moral high ground and do whats needed- they'd gain a lot of respect for it.

Longfordian

09/12/2004, 10:15 PM

They'd gain a lot of repect from people outside their party/organisation but not from within it by all accounts which would seem to be the major barrier.

dortie

10/12/2004, 7:21 AM

As for the issue of why there's no pressure on the UDA etc to disarm, the argument is totally straightforward as far as I can see. the IRA are linked to Sinn Féin. SF want into government. The deal is that they don't get into government while the IRA has guns. The UDA (or any other loyalist paramilitary group) are not linked to either the DUP or the UUP (at least not in the way SF and the IRA are) so it doesn't come into it. I'm sure if any of the smaller loyalist parties which "represent" loyalist paramilitaries wanted to form part of the government they'd be told the same. It is a valid point in fairness, much as I hate saying it. Of course demilitarisation should happen in tandem with this, and there should NOT be an attempt to humiliate anyone, but I think the time has come for the IRA to take the moral high ground and do whats needed- they'd gain a lot of respect for it.

Try telling that to the Catholics of 1969 who had no weapons to protect themselves when Loyalists burned them all out of their homes. That argument is not viable.

Rovers Fellow!

10/12/2004, 7:39 AM

There is no way Paisley and DUP should be allowed dictate the issue of decommisioning. At the end of the day, they wont even speak directly to Sinn Fein, until recently they wouldnt even be in the same room as them. The photographs issue is ridicoulous. They came up with that simply because they knew it was unrealisitc and that the IRA would never agree to it, then they could throw all the blame for not having a deal on Sinn Fein. Even if the photographs were to happen, the DUP would just say that they want more photos or come up with another silly excuse to stall the process. The IRA by the sounds of it, are willing to dump all its arms by Christmas, and Paisley and Co are jeopardising this simply because they want a few photos to show off to theyre bigotted followers.

Just on the point of weapons. Perhaps the Unionist parties are not linked in the same way as SF and the IRA, but many of the weapons held by Unionist paramilitaries came from the Ulster Resistance movement set up by Paisley. This shows what a hypocrite he is, saying that he would never talk to paramilitaries, yet he set up an armed organisation in the past, also the DUP and UUP have been meeting Unionist paramilitaries all through the troubles and today still talk to them regularly on the Loyalist Commission, which is a group which meets regularly made up of all the different Unionist groups. And the reason Paisley and Co say they wont meet SF is because they are linked to an armed group. What a bunch of bigotted hypocrites they are.

patsh

10/12/2004, 7:57 AM

Just on the point of weapons. Perhaps the Unionist parties are not linked in the same way as SF and the IRA, but many of the weapons held by Unionist paramilitaries came from the Ulster Resistance movement set up by Paisley. This shows what a hypocrite he is, saying that he would never talk to paramilitaries, yet he set up an armed organisation in the past, also the DUP and UUP have been meeting Unionist paramilitaries all through the troubles and today still talk to them regularly on the Loyalist Commission, which is a group which meets regularly made up of all the different Unionist groups.Martin McGuinness said on "Hearts and Minds" last night that he had asked John De Chastelain about these Ulster Resistance weapons and De Chastelain has promised to ask British security forces about this. Willie McCrea and the Paisley pup were/are close confidants of "King Rat" Wright, and the pup has been running a campaign for an independant inquiry into his murder while at the same time bellowing out his opposition to inquiries into the Finucane and (her name is gone out of my head, the female lawyer murdered by a car bomb, Rosemary ?) murders.
The IRA might be unreasonable about the photograph, but lets be honest, the DUP are an utterly bigoted and sectarian organisation. They want their extreme reading of one version of the bible to prevail, anyone who doesn't agree with them is a heretic or "anti-Christ", and that includes Methodists, Baptists and other Protestant denominations, they are vehemently anti-Catholic, they have a middle-ages view of the world, and what they really want is a statelet where there own extreme ideas prevail to the exclusion of any other form of thinking or belief.
It's about time these people were shown up for what they are, not what they claim to be. Remember this is the party that tacitly supported and encouraged the stoning, abuse, harrassment, dowsing with urine, bomb throwing and assault of 4, 5 and 6 year old little girls on their way to school.
The IRA have a large proportion of mudering scum, but the DUP are every bit as disgusting, low and filled with total scumbags, they just present themselvr as being "respectable"....:mad:

liam88

10/12/2004, 8:27 AM

Brilliantly put Patsh!

i was Rosemary Nelson-God bless her soul. If I remember rightly she was killed around the same area as Robert Hammil-God bless his soul.

fosterdollar

10/12/2004, 8:38 AM

The UDA (or any other loyalist paramilitary group) are not linked to either the DUP or the UUP (at least not in the way SF and the IRA are) so it doesn't come into it.
Horsesh!t. Members of the DUP have often shared podiums with loyalist paramilitaries. To say that they have no links is false, even if they are unofficial and slightly tenuous. There is an onus on every unionist/loyalist party to appease the paramilitaries on the 'same side'

Lionel Ritchie

10/12/2004, 8:50 AM

Martin McGuinness said on "Hearts and Minds" last night that he had asked John De Chastelain about these Ulster Resistance weapons and De Chastelain has promised to ask British security forces about this. Willie McCrea and the Paisley pup were/are close confidants of "King Rat" Wright, and the pup has been running a campaign for an independant inquiry into his murder while at the same time bellowing out his opposition to inquiries into the Finucane and (her name is gone out of my head, the female lawyer murdered by a car bomb, Rosemary ?) murders.
The IRA might be unreasonable about the photograph, but lets be honest, the DUP are an utterly bigoted and sectarian organisation. They want their extreme reading of one version of the bible to prevail, anyone who doesn't agree with them is a heretic or "anti-Christ", and that includes Methodists, Baptists and other Protestant denominations, they are vehemently anti-Catholic, they have a middle-ages view of the world, and what they really want is a statelet where there own extreme ideas prevail to the exclusion of any other form of thinking or belief.
It's about time these people were shown up for what they are, not what they claim to be. Remember this is the party that tacitly supported and encouraged the stoning, abuse, harrassment, dowsing with urine, bomb throwing and assault of 4, 5 and 6 year old little girls on their way to school.
The IRA have a large proportion of mudering scum, but the DUP are every bit as disgusting, low and filled with total scumbags, they just present themselvr as being "respectable"....:mad:

Sorry mate I can't let that one pass. In calling the DUP (for whom I've no love incidently) a bigoted organisation I think you're smudging the lines between Paisleys party and Paisleys church. your maths are way off for starters. While it's a virtual no brainer that just about all adherents to Paisleys church vote for him in the ballot box (there's about 30,000 Free Presbs in NI) -it's a fact that less than one in ten of those who vote for him or his party (upwards of 300,000) in any election are actually Free Presbyterians. In fact his right hand man - the fragrant Peter (and of course Iris the missus) are Elim Pentecostalists (whatever the fcuk that is :eek: )

I don't have much time for the DUP. I think they've offered little by way of real leadership to their support. But we should n't over emotionalise things in trying to frame they're reasoning.

patsh

10/12/2004, 8:52 AM

dortie

10/12/2004, 9:10 AM

Lionel Ritchie

10/12/2004, 9:53 AM

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, the f*cking assh*le PDs have now decided to get involved in the North, for the first time ever, and decided that they want more committments from the IRA than even the DUP want, and they, the PDs, will NOT AGREE to any deal falling short of their demands! They are demanding an extra condition, i.e. that all IRA "personnel" pledge to not engage in criminal activity. Now this is a total load of horsesh*t, as how is this possible to ensure? They are also declaring that the "McCabe deal is off the table".
PDs are up to two things here
1. They have judged the mood of the people on the McCabe question and see an opportunity to jump on a bandwagon (wrongly) thinking there are votes in it for them.
2. May be looking for a reason to get out of the coalition with FF?

I would love an election now. Mostly because I think we will see that little shower of c*nts get even less than their pathetic 6% of the vote they got the last time, and it would probably spell the end of the Dáil career of Gruppenfuehrer McDowell.

Conor, remember the words of Brian Cowen(?) "When in doubt, leave them out" !

Bejaysis patsh you do have the painters in at the moment don't you.
Just on the PDs 'judging the public mood' -the PDs and everyone else has known for a long time that most people down here don't want to see these murdering fcukers released. Personnally yeah I think they'll have to be released -though it sickens me. Brave soldiers for irelands freedom indeed -robbing Irish peoples savings, dole and pensions from a post office and then butchering a policeman who tried to stop them.

Why incidently do you consider it unreasonable that " all IRA "personnel" pledge to not engage in criminal activity"? are you afraid it'll fcuk up their pension plan? or their post conflict career plans maybe?

The PDs Liz O'Donnell by the way has been talking the most common sense in relation to the IRA for years now. She was the first southern politician outside Sinn Fein who said we should stop harping on about IRA decommisisioning and start leaning on Sinn fein to sign up to the police board instead. SF sign up to policing and all the rest logically follows.

drinkfeckarse

10/12/2004, 10:04 AM

Why incidently do you consider it unreasonable that " all IRA "personnel" pledge to not engage in criminal activity"? are you afraid it'll fcuk up their pension plan? or their post conflict career plans maybe?

I would say it's unreasonable because it's unrealistic and impossible. I mean do they want them to all line up in a televised event and take the "pledge" like the President or something. Show themselves in public! :confused:

And even if they did release a statement saying they pledge not to engage again, who's to say they'd stick to it at the end of the day if things changed? And if some bomb ever went off again, they could easily say that it was new recruits who hadn't taken the pledge. It's laughable.

patsh

10/12/2004, 10:21 AM

Bejaysis patsh you do have the painters in at the moment don't you.:rolleyes: Thats what I like to see, a clear calm and accurate analysis of my post....

Just on the PDs 'judging the public mood' -the PDs and everyone else has known for a long time that most people down here don't want to see these murdering fcukers released. Personnally yeah I think they'll have to be released -though it sickens me. Brave soldiers for irelands freedom indeed -robbing Irish peoples savings, dole and pensions from a post office and then butchering a policeman who tried to stop them.

Why incidently do you consider it unreasonable that " all IRA "personnel" pledge to not engage in criminal activity"? are you afraid it'll fcuk up their pension plan? or their post conflict career plans maybe?.1. The PDs have NEVER taken an active interest in the North of this country, outside of the usual mumbled platitudes of IRA bad, Sinn Fein bad blah, blah blah....Say what you like about Ahern, and I usually do, whether you agree with him or not on the issue, to even come out and say that the possibility is there that those killers will be released is in some sense a very brave thing to do, as he knew just how unpopular it would be. Now the opposition have criticised it, but they don't know as much about the situation as the PDs do, yet I didn't see Harney, she who can't keep her mouth shut, open her big gob once to agree with Ahern or even say that she disagress with him. She has been a quite little girl, but now they get all "moral" and gallop off back to the high ground to let "sources" imply that they are unhappy.

2. It's "unreasonable" becuse its impossible to ensure. I will make it simple for you.
IRA leadership says yes we agree to refrain from criminal activity. 1 week later "former" IRA man is arrested for burglary/assault, lets say. So now where are we? Does this mean the whole deal is off again? Are the leadership of Sinn Fein responsible for the actions of everybody who claims to be a "republican" ?

The PDs Liz O'Donnell by the way has been talking the most common sense in relation to the IRA for years now. She was the first southern politician outside Sinn Fein who said we should stop harping on about IRA decommisisioning and start leaning on Sinn fein to sign up to the police board instead. SF sign up to policing and all the rest logically follows.Liz and her leaders are superb at doing just that, talking about it. McDowell talks endlessly about everything, there isn't a topic he can keep his gob shut on, so does Harney and any number of PD "Senators" who can't even get elected. Turn on any radio station and there they will be, talking about something. The PDs have been in Government for years, why didn't they DO something about the North instead of TALKING about it?

patsh

10/12/2004, 10:24 AM

I love it. Shades of Mary Robsinson resigning from the Labour Party because of the supposed failure to consult adequately with the Unionist Party prior to the Anglo Irish Agreement (that HAD to be one of the funniest things ever, as if Mary stamping her foot would change the course of history), or John Bruton's cluckings about protecting the Unionists. Or that ****** Conor Cruise O'Brien going on about how we don't look after our brethern...forgetting about the full scale of democratic, military, political and legal power that they could call on.1. Robinson resigned from the Labour party. She actually DID something about something she disagreed with.
2. CCO'B was a "bloody unionist" anyway.
3. The above episodes are hardly the same thing as a Government party deciding they would stop a peace settlement, unless THEIR demands are met, is it?

Lionel Ritchie

10/12/2004, 10:31 AM

I would say it's unreasonable because it's unrealistic and impossible. I mean do they want them to all line up in a televised event and take the "pledge" like the President or something. Show themselves in public! :confused:

And even if they did release a statement saying they pledge not to engage again, who's to say they'd stick to it at the end of the day if things changed? And if some bomb ever went off again, they could easily say that it was new recruits who hadn't taken the pledge. It's laughable.

That's all fair and true dfa. I agree it'd be impossible to police -but there's nothing wrong in wanting the IRA to issue a 'cease and desist' instruction to it's membership as part of a final wind down rather than accepting it as a given that many of them will move into organised crime full time (which too many of them have done already it should be added).

Just on the photographs thing -while i'd love to see it -or videotape or whatever -I'm not sure it'd be at all helpful. I don't think Paisleys being practical on this and it' symptomatic of his and the DUPs almost autistic inability to percieve a scenario from any angle but their own.

Front page Photos of IRA weapons being dumped off the side of a fishing boat and bubbling down to the bottom of the celtic sea (apparently the mechanism by which the last major act of IRA decommissioning was executed) will have a very negative effect in interface areas, border areas/ West Belfast/Derry and could move people in the direction of fringe nutcases like the IRSP, RSF etc..-regardless of how much of a trophy Paisley can make of it in his Ballymena heartland. He's not after proof -he's after election litrerature.

Noises have been made from republican circles in recent days about the possibility of another witness -could that be a unionist politician perhaps? maybe Paisley himself? DUP supporters have been saying for years that he's never put them wrong and 'if it's good enough for the big man -it's good enough for us'. Now's a chance to put that to the test. Bring the Doc along -and sure he can describe whatever he sees in glorious technicolour to whoever wants to listen to him.

Lionel Ritchie

10/12/2004, 10:47 AM

Liz and her leaders are superb at doing just that, talking about it. McDowell talks endlessly about everything, there isn't a topic he can keep his gob shut on, so does Harney and any number of PD "Senators" who can't even get elected. Turn on any radio station and there they will be, talking about something. The PDs have been in Government for years, why didn't they DO something about the North instead of TALKING about it?

So first their wrong coz they don't talk about the north and then they're wrong because they do. What would you like them to "do" about the north? Invade it maybe? Maybe it's what they "do" about the north that you don't like. like maybe highlighting the fact that Sinn Fein and their IRA buddies (and in too many cases alter egos) aren't playing by the same rules as the rest. By highlighting that the IRA has been, continues to be and has no intention of ceasing being up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity -the proceeds of which find their way into SFs election coffers when there's a few bob left after finishing their Donegal holiday homes.

dortie

10/12/2004, 10:55 AM

highlighting the fact that Sinn Fein and their IRA buddies (and in too many cases alter egos) aren't playing by the same rules as the rest. By highlighting that the IRA has been, continues to be and has no intention of ceasing being up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity -the proceeds of which find their way into SFs election coffers when there's a few bob left after finishing their Donegal holiday homes.

Can i ask you a question, when you refer to Sinn Fein and their IRA buddies as you term it, do you ever take time to think they represent around 55% of the Catholic vote up here, and thats not including the 10% or so of republicans who are against the Belfast agreement and dont vote. Your classification in terms of criminality would not be appreciated. Are you a democrat ?

Lionel Ritchie

10/12/2004, 11:16 AM

Can i ask you a question, when you refer to Sinn Fein and their IRA buddies as you term it, do you ever take time to think they represent around 55% of the Catholic vote up here, and thats not including the 10% or so of republicans who are against the Belfast agreement and dont vote. Your classification in terms of criminality would not be appreciated. Are you a democrat ?

Yes I am a democrat ...and an Irish nationalist incidently. I acknowledge that something like the figures you mention vote for Sinn Fein and I respect SFs mandate. that doesn't mean I don't regret that those people who voted for them chose to turn a blind eye or are oblivious to what lies behind/beneath/within Sinn Fein. That those people might not like my "classification in terms of criminality" is something I can do little about and care about less.
Ask yourself something ...why have people crossed over from SDLP to Sinn Fein in sizeable numbers?(cue speech from someone about "dynamic vision for an Ireland of equals") Could it be thatvpeople know that the SDLP don't have the same how shall i put it -leverage as Sinn fein when it comes to negotiations? and hence the SDLP -even if they represented the entire nationalist population of the north -don't have the same bargaining chips as Sinn fein.

patsh

10/12/2004, 11:16 AM

So first their wrong coz they don't talk about the north and then they're wrong because they do. What would you like them to "do" about the north? Invade it maybe? Maybe it's what they "do" about the north that you don't like. like maybe highlighting the fact that Sinn Fein and their IRA buddies (and in too many cases alter egos) aren't playing by the same rules as the rest. By highlighting that the IRA has been, continues to be and has no intention of ceasing being up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity -the proceeds of which find their way into SFs election coffers when there's a few bob left after finishing their Donegal holiday homes.1.They are only talking about the North when it suits them.
2. The PD HAVE DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the North of this country. Where are the plans, ideas, propositions, proposals, meetings? They just TALK about it, so people like you can be impressed by the verbiage.
3. You say that the PDs keep highlighting the "FACT" that Sinn Fein is "up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity". Well the Minister for Justice is a PD, why doesn't he present all his FACTS to An Garda Siochana and have all these people arrested?
They keep flinging accusations left, right and centre, but as usual, DO NOTHING, just talk about them.
4.I see you spout the usual nonsensical type of "argument" when you have a "debate". Just keep posting about how bad the IRA is and how evil they are, and thats supposed to prove some point you are trying make.

dortie

10/12/2004, 11:27 AM

Yes I am a democrat ...and an Irish nationalist incidently. I acknowledge that something like the figures you mention vote for Sinn Fein and I respect SFs mandate. that doesn't mean I don't regret that those people who voted for them chose to turn a blind eye or are oblivious to what lies behind/beneath/within Sinn Fein. That those people might not like my "classification in terms of criminality" is something I can do little about and care about less.
Ask yourself something ...why have people crossed over from SDLP to Sinn Fein in sizeable numbers?(cue speech from someone about "dynamic vision for an Ireland of equals") Could it be thatvpeople know that the SDLP don't have the same how shall i put it -leverage as Sinn fein when it comes to negotiations? and hence the SDLP -even if they represented the entire nationalist population of the north -don't have the same bargaining chips as Sinn fein.

The people who moved over to SF are all fully aware of SF and indeed the IRA through the years, but suppose you still consider them as 'led down the garden path'....

The SDLP never had Irish Unity as a priority through the years SF did, there is your biggest reason for the change in vote. Plus the younger generation of catholics are not prepared to sit back and be dominated by Unionists anymore. Who will voice their opinions without backing down ? The answer was in the vote.

Lionel Ritchie

10/12/2004, 11:39 AM

1.They are only talking about the North when it suits them.
2. The PD HAVE DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the North of this country. Where are the plans, ideas, propositions, proposals, meetings? They just TALK about it, so people like you can be impressed by the verbiage.
3. You say that the PDs keep highlighting the "FACT" that Sinn Fein is "up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity". Well the Minister for Justice is a PD, why doesn't he present all his FACTS to An Garda Siochana and have all these people arrested?
They keep flinging accusations left, right and centre, but as usual, DO NOTHING, just talk about them.
4.I see you spout the usual nonsensical type of "argument" when you have a "debate". Just keep posting about how bad the IRA is and how evil they are, and thats supposed to prove some point you are trying make.

Oh here we go -so people "like me" can be impressed by the verbiage -what? like people "like you" can be impressed by sinn feins big bang gunshot boom boom noises?

If you read my post I said the IRA is up to it's eyeballs in criminal activity and that the funds are finding their way to sinn fein -with whom of course it shares some members.

the Minister for Justice got his information from the garda siochana so there's little point in him telling them something they know only too well.

And as for your claim that I spout the "usual nonsensical" argument about the IRA being evil and bad -well I've never actually done that but as you mention it -yeah -blowing up children, murdering civilians, torturing victims, executing unarmed mothers, killing farmers who called the cops when they found weapons in their barnyard, "disapearring" people, intimidation, extorion, racketeering, smuggling and generally being parasitic gypstains on the underpants of the country makes them a shower of evil, bad *******s from where I'm standing.

Colm

10/12/2004, 11:42 AM

3. You say that the PDs keep highlighting the "FACT" that Sinn Fein is "up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity". Well the Minister for Justice is a PD, why doesn't he present all his FACTS to An Garda Siochana and have all these people arrested?
They keep flinging accusations left, right and centre, but as usual, DO NOTHING, just talk about them.

I think you're spot on. Firstly, I don't doubt for a second that they are involved in criminal activities and I'm not a fan of either Sinn Fein or the IRA but that's not the point. The point is that McDowell is making these accusations without any proof whatsoever, if he had any evidence he'd have done something about it. The man is a bumbling buffoon and a facist clown, this is just one example of his carry on and imo FF would be a lot better off if they weren't in coalition with McDowell and his PD cronies.

patsh

10/12/2004, 12:50 PM

Oh here we go -so people "like me" can be impressed by the verbiage -what? like people "like you" can be impressed by sinn feins big bang gunshot boom boom noises?.Of course I am, I always get taken in by the group who talk the loudest and longest...:rolleyes:

If you read my post I said the IRA is up to it's eyeballs in criminal activity and that the funds are finding their way to sinn fein -with whom of course it shares some members.

the Minister for Justice got his information from the garda siochana so there's little point in him telling them something they know only too well.I DID read your post, it's a pity you don't pay the same attention to what is posted yourself.
Now I'll say it in plain simple English again.
YOUR quote: "highlighting that the IRA has been, continues to be and has no intention of ceasing being up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity"
You are telling me that the Minister for Justice knows AND the Gardai know about these "facts". They are doing NOTHING about this, so the logical conclusion of your claim is that the Justice minister and the Gardai are tolerating criminal activity.
My claim is that the PDs talk but do nothing, and your claim proves me right.

Lionel Ritchie

10/12/2004, 1:00 PM

Of course I am, I always get taken in by the group who talk the loudest and longest...:rolleyes:

I DID read your post, it's a pity you don't pay the same attention to what is posted yourself.
Now I'll say it in plain simple English again.
YOUR quote: "highlighting that the IRA has been, continues to be and has no intention of ceasing being up to it's fcukin' eyeballs in criminal activity"
You are telling me that the Minister for Justice knows AND the Gardai know about these "facts". They are doing NOTHING about this, so the logical conclusion of your claim is that the Justice minister and the Gardai are tolerating criminal activity.
My claim is that the PDs talk but do nothing, and your claim proves me right.
Bull**** Patsh!!!! and well you know it. It's one thing to know full well that these people are blackguarding. it's quite another to gather a book of evidence that'll secure convictions against them. that's because our state rightly offers protections to those accused of criminality and ensures the burden of proof lies with the prosecutor. Unlike the IRA -who issue summary justice down darkened back alleys where they are judge, jury and executioner.

patsh

10/12/2004, 1:13 PM

Bull**** Patsh!!!! and well you know it. It's one thing to know full well that these people are blackguarding. it's quite another to gather a book of evidence that'll secure convictions against them. that's because our state rightly offers protections to those accused of criminality and ensures the burden of proof lies with the prosecutor. Aha, so you don't believe in due legal process then?
It's perfectly OK for the Minister for Justice and self-proclaimed Greatest World Expert on the Law, EVER to ignore the innocent until proven guilty maxim, and bandy about accustions like snuff at a wedding.
Mr. PD obviously believes that its to better to publicly claim loudly they are guilty and imply he knows this becuase of information he has, so getting people to believe his guff, rather than test this same info in a court of Law.
Of course, he being the Expert he is, his novel idea of Justice is bound to catch on.

Unlike the IRA -who issue summary justice down darkened back alleys where they are judge, jury and executioner.I'm glad you posted yet another bad thing about the IRA, I don't really know much about them and the things they do.........

Lionel Ritchie

10/12/2004, 3:09 PM

I'm not going to argue that he is technically in the wrong for saying these things openly -for starters it could damage a prosecution and he should know better -BUT the gardai have pointed out that since McDowell flagged this up the RA, those brave heroes of Ireland, have drawn in their horns and lowered their profile considerably around dublin port. Don't want to be embarrassing Sinn fein at a crucial juncture maybe? :rolleyes:

I have to say by the way I find it hilariously ironic if it weren't so sickening to be lectured on 'due legal process' by someone who finds so little to be disgusted by in what the IRA have been up to for years in all our names.

I note by the way you'd no real smart arse comeback for my far from complete list of activities that could legitimatly earn the IRA a tag of being 'Bad' and 'Evil' so I'll give you a second opportunity to retort...

blowing up children, murdering civilians, torturing victims, executing unarmed mothers, killing farmers who called the cops when they found weapons in their barnyard, "disapearring" people, intimidation, extorion, racketeering, smuggling and generally being parasitic gypstains on the underpants of the country

patsh

10/12/2004, 4:50 PM

people "like you" can be impressed by sinn feins big bang gunshot boom boom noises

I have to say by the way I find it hilariously ironic if it weren't so sickening to be lectured on 'due legal process' by someone who finds so little to be disgusted by in what the IRA have been up to for years in all our names.
I have to say by the way I find it hilariously ironic that, in your anxiety to spew out your whatever it is you claim to be trying to say, you don't actually read posts you are supposedly replying to. I also find your pop-psychology analysis of what I find disgusting/not disgusting or just who impresses me to be side-splittingly funny

I note by the way you'd no real smart arse comeback for my far from complete list of activities that could legitimatly earn the IRA a tag of being 'Bad' and 'Evil' so I'll give you a second opportunity to retort... I leave the "smart arse" comebacks to you. Those and continually listing all the bad things the IRA have done, pretty much sums up your entire contribution to this thread.

dortie

11/12/2004, 10:27 AM

I note by the way you'd no real smart arse comeback for my far from complete list of activities that could legitimatly earn the IRA a tag of being 'Bad' and 'Evil' so I'll give you a second opportunity to retort...

All depends where your from and what youve witnessed. You have witnessed feck all in terms of 'British State' Brutality and Loyalist death squads, so your perception of the IRA will always be one as potrayed by the biased media.

Maybe if you had witnessed a corrupt police force, the murder of Irish children (never promoted as much as careless IRA activities), and the daily harrassment of your people by sick paratroopers etc you might have had a different opinion on things.

Of course you would have lay down like a good croppie wouldnt you !

JohnB

11/12/2004, 4:41 PM

All depends where your from and what youve witnessed.

In common with the other paramilitary organistions that blight Northern Ireland, PIRA/Sinn Fein are a murderous bunch of criminals. Where you are from or what you have witnessed has little to do with it.

Making excuses for killers leads you down a very dodgy road. Were the LVF defending Ulster from republicans when they ordered taxis from catholic taxi firms and then shot the driver in the back of the head?

liam88

11/12/2004, 9:03 PM

Making excuses for killers leads you down a very dodgy road. Were the LVF defending Ulster from republicans when they ordered taxis from catholic taxi firms and then shot the driver in the back of the head?

totally sick......just like Holy Cross........or murdering Robet Hmmil.......or Pat Finucaine in front of his family.......innocent human rights lawyer..........mourners at a funeral...

Then again the IRA blew up a banstand, a bustling Christmas shopping center and pubs in Birmingham among others...

All terrible stuff (and RIP ALL the victims).....all terrible stuff that could soon have come to an end.........but oh no.....Mr. P*isley's name pops up again!

No more murders-no more Paisley