'Final Deal' Will it be as big as GFA?

[JohnB]

If the PIRA had the same strategy and tactics as the LVF there would be no protestants left alive.

So, I dont consider them in the same category, if thats what your asking.

What a poor post. Are you really saying that PIRA are some sort of ultra-efficient killing machine that, should they choose to, could kill as many protestants as they want?

As for your second sentence, it's the usual ****e that's trotted out by extremists, apologists and, frankly rather sad individuals on both sides of the divide in NI.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I leave the "smart arse" comebacks to you. Those and continually listing all the bad things the IRA have done, pretty much sums up your entire contribution to this thread.

Actually Patsh if you read back you'll find it was yourself who brought up the IRA. I merely responded to what I felt was an simplistic, unhelpful carricature you painted of the DUP and its support.

I don't think Paisley has offered a shred of leadership to his people down the years. He has been guilty of incitement, has flirted with paramilitarism himself, has scaremongered and is I believe, in his heart, a supremacist who believes his Britishness and Protestantism makes him a better person than his Irish-Nationalist-Catholic neighbours. Though I doubt it's even worth repeating my attitude to him or his party as I'm apparently a DUP/FCP lover because I think the IRA are criminals, thugs and murderers.

As for the IRA I'm glad the likes of Adams and McGuinness have seen the light and are trying to move as much as possible of the organisation away from that behaviour.
I'm glad that the IRA appear to be close to closing down and fcuking off.
I'm glad they are apparently serious about persuing their goals through politics.
That doesn't mean I think they're nice guys, heroes or are even to be applauded for stopping doing something they shouldn't have been doing in the first place.


Maybe if you had witnessed a corrupt police force, the murder of Irish children (never promoted as much as careless IRA activities), and the daily harrassment of your people by sick paratroopers etc you might have had a different opinion on things.

Of course you would have lay down like a good croppie wouldnt you ! Dortie the corrupt police force is gone -and if Sinn Fein would sign up to policing they could help make sure it could never come back.
I acknowledge the hardships endured by my fellow Irish nationalists -but not they nor anyone else has a right to resort to the sick carry on the glorious IRA did in response. And no this croppy would not lie down -I'd like to think I'd have done what John Hume did, what Seamus Mallon did and many more like them who took on a corrupt system with a ballot box in one hand and a manifesto in the other.

[dortie]

Dortie the corrupt police force is gone -and if Sinn Fein would sign up to policing they could help make sure it could never come back.
I acknowledge the hardships endured by my fellow Irish nationalists -but not they nor anyone else has a right to resort to the sick carry on the glorious IRA did in response. And no this croppy would not lie down -I'd like to think I'd have done what John Hume did, what Seamus Mallon did and many more like them who took on a corrupt system with a ballot box in one hand and a manifesto in the other.


Its not gone, the uniform and badge have changed, thats it. The media really does do a great Job on you people.
So tell me, what did the SDLP achieve in terms of the unification of Ireland ?
Theres no doubting John Humes contribution to the economy up here, particularly Derry in terms of attracting employment, but tell me what the SDLP has achieved in Joining the policing board ?

[patsh]

I merely responded to what I felt was an simplistic, unhelpful carricature you painted of the DUP and its support.:rolleyes:
My "carricature" is quite accurate, from both personal experience and the writings, opinions and experience of many others.



I don't think Paisley has offered a shred of leadership to his people down the years. He has been guilty of incitement, has flirted with paramilitarism himself, has scaremongered and is I believe, in his heart, a supremacist who believes his Britishness and Protestantism makes him a better person than his Irish-Nationalist-Catholic neighbours.Well thats quite a simplistic, and very unhelpful carricature you have painted of Mr. Paisley......or maybe not.
Maybe you think your "opinions" are somehow "sophisticated" while others are "simplistic". But then maybe you think phrases like "flirted with paramilitarism" and "scaremongered" are sophisticated, while the simplistic, but completely accurate and true phrases should be, "was heavily involved in the organisation and arming of paramilitaries" and "promoted extreme hate and fear".
Interesting to see you can be so blunt and honest about the IRA, but you adopt the usual media-speak of cloaking Paisley in much softer language and euphemism....:rolleyes:

We can all see yet again, Paisley and his ilk do anything they can to worm out of having to treat "nationalists" or Catholics as equal citizens. It's amazing how this creep can say ANYTHING at all about whomsoever he likes, but NOBODY must dare say anything he decides he doesn't like. Or maybe thats too simplistic an analysis?

[Lionel Ritchie]

Interesting to see you can be so blunt and honest about the IRA, but you adopt the usual media-speak of cloaking Paisley in much softer language and euphemism....

If I'm being so "blunt and honest" about the IRA does that mean you concede that they've butchered their way through the innocent to force a deal? :rolleyes:

As for using softer language with Paisley -the fact is the only thing he's ever been convicted of is a couple of public order offences.
That's not to say I don't agree with much of what you say about him. He's shared many meetings with men with berets, sunglasses and handlebar taches ...couldn't have painted himself as the great victor of the UWC in 74 without them.


We can all see yet again, Paisley and his ilk do anything they can to worm out of having to treat "nationalists" or Catholics as equal citizens. It's amazing how this creep can say ANYTHING at all about whomsoever he likes, but NOBODY must dare say anything he decides he doesn't like. Or maybe thats too simplistic an analysis?
Slightly -though there's an amount of truth in there. His major grief is with sharing power with armed republicans/Sinn Fein as opposed to treating nationalists/catholics as equal citizens. Though I don't believe (and maybe I'm being simplistic) that he or his DUP are serious about or keen on power sharing with anyone.
If you read between the lines with their policies they clearly favour simple, blunt majority rule -and as that's a no-brainer to fail -London rule.


Its not gone, the uniform and badge have changed, thats it. The media really does do a great Job on you people.
So tell me, what did the SDLP achieve in terms of the unification of Ireland ?
Dortie -it's far from perfect and not nearly enough of Patten was taken up. but it's a bloody decent start. They couldn't just fire 13,000 people and start again. The SDLP internationalised the problem -helped bring the USA and it's presidents (who the UK didn't want within an asses roar of it) into the equation, by dragging SF in from their pop-guns and fertiliser and by getting people talking to each other. Now what did the IRA achieve in terms of the unification of Ireland? (beyond making sure it'll be unlikely to happen in our life time)

Theres no doubting John Humes contribution to the economy up here, particularly Derry in terms of attracting employment, but tell me what the SDLP has achieved in Joining the policing board ?
Applications to the PSNI from the nationalist community are making up about a quarter (and rising) of all applications. Still too little but progress by any measure.

[patsh]

If I'm being so "blunt and honest" about the IRA does that mean you concede that they've butchered their way through the innocent to force a deal? :rolleyes:
Apparently you are still not reading posts...
WHERE have I defended the IRA, their actions, their history or their members?

[liam88]

what did the IRA achieve in terms of the unification of Ireland? (beyond making sure it'll be unlikely to happen in our life time)


Not defending them in anyway but i hardly think that their murders slowed it down at all.....the loyalists were doing a good enough job of that before the IRA came on the London scene

[liam88]

Yeah fair balls Conor I didn't get that across right.......stupid post :rolleyes:

[dortie]

Ever hear of the B-specials, Shankill Butchers, Brian Nelson, Mad Dog adair, Ulster Resistance. Billy Wright, the parachute regiment, A Protestant State for a Protestant people, Conor Cruise O'Brian...


Nah, they all think the IRA grew out of somebodies imagination.

[patsh]

Ever hear of the B-specials, Shankill Butchers, Brian Nelson, Mad Dog adair, Ulster Resistance. Billy Wright, the parachute regiment, A Protestant State for a Protestant people, Conor Cruise O'Brian...Is it at all possible that people who contribute to threads like this realise one thing? I'm pretty sure that it can be taken for granted that posters know just how bad the IRA/UDA/UVF etc are, and all about their past deeds. Surely it's not really necessary to list them as some sort of "proof"?

[JohnB]

I'm pretty sure that it can be taken for granted that posters know just how bad the IRA/UDA/UVF etc are, and all about their past deeds.

That is not the case Pat. Dortie defends the IRA and thinks that their murders are different to those carried out by other paramilitary groups.

[exile]

murder is murder wether its the paras uvf uda or scum fein/ira its murder and terrorism and they should be dealt with as terrorists no matter what side they are on.

[exile]

So I take it, if you're consistant in your arguement, that you woud have locked up Michael Collins during the Geurilla campaign of 1921 and thrown away the key then...

different era called for different means also i dont remember collins killing innocent childeren or smuggling drugs :rolleyes:

[exile]

Do I smell a cop out in the air. I ask once again would you have locked up Michael Collins for orchestrating his killing campaign in ireland during 1921..?

A simple yes or no will suffice...;)

no of course not as i said different era different means.
so i take it you support
scum feins/ira killing of innocent civilians over the years oh do you support their criminal activitys as well a simple yes or no will suffice :rolleyes:

[exile]

You're attempts at wriggling off this hook is amusing to observe...:D

For the record i can categorically state that I condemn the killing of all innocent civillians by the Provsional IRA, British State Forces and loyalist death squads.

A pity you aren't so clear in your own thinking...;)

you really are a half wit arent you i told you straight up what i thought :rolleyes:

[exile]

I therefore take it that you accept my condemnation of the killing of innocent civillians...;)

wholeheartly ;)

[dortie]

That is not the case Pat. Dortie defends the IRA and thinks that their murders are different to those carried out by other paramilitary groups.

Your actually correct. Loyalist paramilitaries directed (still do) a war against Catholics. The IRA directed a war against Crown Forces.

Although Ive never defended the killing of Innocent civilians.

[JohnB]

Your actually correct. Loyalist paramilitaries directed (still do) a war against Catholics. The IRA directed a war against Crown Forces.

Although Ive never defended the killing of Innocent civilians.

Both the IRA and their loyalist brothers and sisters have, and will, murder anyone if they think it will further their cause.

If, as you say, the IRA didn't want to kill shoppers and by standers, why did they repeatedly plant bombs in the middle of them? You'd think they would have learnt after the first atrocity.

And, if they only waged a war against the police and armed forces, how come fully one quarter of the IRA's victims were from the nationalist community?

And what about the murder of building contractors who were identified as targets by the warped logic of the extremist. Your own logic.

I could go on.

[dortie]

If, as you say, the IRA didn't want to kill shoppers and by standers, why did they repeatedly plant bombs in the middle of them? You'd think they would have learnt after the first atrocity.

And, if they only waged a war against the police and armed forces, how come fully one quarter of the IRA's victims were from the nationalist community?

And what about the murder of building contractors who were identified as targets by the warped logic of the extremist. Your own logic.

I could go on.

Anyone who studied the conflict will tell you that those particular bombings were intended as commercial. To inflict serious financial damage. If the Intention was to murder shoppers (Against all republican ideology) there would have been 10 times the casualties/deaths. Im simply trying to point out to you that 'I' believe those tragedys were not Intentional.
Again, I do not speak on behalf of the IRA, but everyone up here knows (from all their statements through the years) that contractors are seen by them as legitamate targets as they are supporting the British presence in Ireland by their work.