Dundalk Fined For Palestine Flag at Euro Game [Archive] - Page 5

DannyInvincible

12/09/2014, 12:29 PM

The right to express an opinion is not an absolute one. This is especially the case on private property or when a voluntary agreement between the two parties concerned allows for the limitation of "offending" expressions. By entering onto the property of the club, those supporters waived any right they might have had to behave how they liked (not that there is such a right even in public, but you know what I mean) and, at the very least, implicitly agreed to conform to the over-riding stadium regulations. Actually, I'd be surprised if those terms weren't explicitly mentioned on their match tickets. Likewise, by Dundalk's participation in UEFA's competition, the club agreed to adhere to UEFA's governing regulations. Such agreement was a condition of participation. Nobody's right to free speech has been involuntarily stifled or trampled upon. People can't just do what they like on private property nor can clubs breach competition rules to which they've agreed to adhere without consequence.

Edit: I should make clear that I'm not lumping the club and those individuals involved into the same boat. The club have denounced their actions. Even if the supporters had a case, I doubt Dundalk would take it to the ECtHR on their behalf. If those involved think they have a case, they can fire away, but they won't get very far.

Dodge

12/09/2014, 2:48 PM

Which just illustrates how flawed UEFA have become. Maybe Dundalk et al should take their case to the ECHR given people are no longer allowed to even express an opinion.

Brave talk for a man that won't even go to watch his local LOI side play. It's not you that has to put up with the consequences

ArdeeBhoy

12/09/2014, 4:55 PM

Except they're not and never have been my 'local LOI' side...my own team are no longer even in the LOI, since you didn't ask.

But don't let checking the facts get in the way of daft assertions.

ArdeeBhoy

12/09/2014, 4:56 PM

Dundalk to the ECHR?? You can jog on too!

Well, if you don't fight things then people will continue to sh*t on you...
;)

Dodge

12/09/2014, 4:59 PM

Except they're not and never have been my 'local LOI' side...my own team are no longer even in the LOI, since you didn't ask.

But don't let checking the facts get in the way of daft assertions.
The point remains that you have nothing to lose with your "daft assertions" while they very much do

I never said Dundalk were your local side either. You've been fairly adamant about who you do/don't support on these forums

DannyInvincible

12/09/2014, 5:36 PM

Well, if you don't fight things then people will continue to sh*t on you...
;)

What case do the individuals involved or the club have that would justify appealing to the ECtHR though? What is there to fight? Both respective parties, the individuals involved and the club, voluntarily waived certain rights they might have otherwise had by either: attending the game in Oriel Park, private property of the Casey family, and agreeing to adhere to the terms of entry (http://www.dundalkfc.com/club/ground-regulations/), as in the case of the fans; or, by participating in the Europa League and agreeing to conform to the governing regulations as laid down by UEFA, as in the case of the club. The individuals involved were the ones sh*tting on their club and I understand the club have moved to ban them from Oriel Park, as is the club's right. What else can Dundalk do realistically?

ArdeeBhoy

12/09/2014, 5:38 PM

Dodge,
If you say so...gurning about modern football and how the LOI receives a raw deal. Fair enough.
Clearly, you don't realise insipid morons like UEFA are part of the problem...never mind anyone else's 'assertions' !!

bennocelt

12/09/2014, 5:40 PM

They own the UEFA Europa League competition. It's UEFA's competition. Once you agree to enter, you argee to abided by UEFA's rules.

Here's an example. My local night club don't own fun. But if I went in and started dancing on the tables after begin warned not to, I'd be barred. Why? Because it's their club and their rules.

Tsk:rolleyes: Eh, I do know that! But Supporters dont read a list of UEFA directives before they head to the game. Plenty of petty rules do be broken all around the place. Difference between the football competition and the silly bureaucracy (a nice little earner for UEFA).

ArdeeBhoy

12/09/2014, 5:41 PM

What case do the individuals involved or the club have that would justify appealing to the ECtHR though? What is there to fight? Both respective parties, the individuals involved and the club, voluntarily waived certain rights they might have otherwise had by either: attending the game in Oriel Park, private property of the Casey family, and agreeing to adhere to the terms of entry (http://www.dundalkfc.com/club/ground-regulations/), as in the case of the fans; or, by participating in the Europa League and agreeing to conform to the governing regulations as laid down by UEFA, as in the case of the club. The individuals involved were the ones sh*tting on their club and I understand the club have moved to ban them from Oriel Park, as is the club's right. What else can Dundalk do realistically?
I know, but more fool them. Accepting undemocratic organisations interference. As is the case with most other clubs.

UEFA are a sanitised shower who exist in their own corporate bubble and deserve to be challenged whenever possible...there's a point of principle and feck the consequences.

DannyInvincible

12/09/2014, 6:53 PM

Tsk:rolleyes: Eh, I do know that! But Supporters dont read a list of UEFA directives before they head to the game. Plenty of petty rules do be broken all around the place. Difference between the football competition and the silly bureaucracy (a nice little earner for UEFA).

Whether they read them or not, the supporters agreed to adhere to Dundalk's ground regulations simply by their entry into the stadium. The regulations state the following:

All persons entering this stadium are admitted only subject to the following ground rules and regulations of Dundalk FC. Entry to the stadium shall be deemed to constitute unqualified acceptance of these rules and regulations.

It's not a petty matter though; this has needlessly cost Dundalk €18,000. Participation in the competition cannot be distinguished from the governing regulations either. Acceptance of the rules is a condition of participation.

I know, but more fool them. Accepting undemocratic organisations interference. As is the case with most other clubs.

What's the alternative? Opting out of UEFA competition? Why would or should Dundalk do that? Is there another democratic body that organises football in Europe to whom Dundalk can instead align themselves? The club are happy to adhere to UEFA's regulations, like all other clubs participating in UEFA competition around Europe. Are there clubs around Europe that shun UEFA's authority? Is there some way how Dundalk might have participated in UEFA's competition without having to conform to the competition rules?

UEFA are a sanitised shower who exist in their own corporate bubble and deserve to be challenged whenever possible...there's a point of principle and feck the consequences.

What is the principle though? I don't disagree with your opinion of UEFA, but how should Dundalk just ignore the consequences? How should they challenge UEFA? It's easy to say that, but how would Dundalk go about putting this into action? What would it involve? If Dundalk decided to just dismiss the consequences, they'd be banned from Europe and the FAI would probably suffer some form of penalty too. It's simply not realistic to tell Dundalk, "F*ck the consequences!"

ArdeeBhoy

12/09/2014, 8:36 PM

Hmm, you're way too rational Danny!
Remember plenty of protests at both home and elsewhere, which make a few flags look very tame.

It's not just down to Dundalk/LOI/Ireland, but up to as many people as possible to challenge UEFA's interfering and hypocrisy.
Though these days we're probably waiting for some nerd to start a petition or Facebook page...
FFS.

DannyInvincible

12/09/2014, 8:48 PM

That's all well and good, but what use is it to Dundalk in the here and now? What can Dundalk do to challenge UEFA, even if they wanted to?

Eminence Grise

12/09/2014, 9:02 PM

Plenty of petty rules do be broken all around the place.

Not the least of which are grammar, it seems.;)

In fairness, Benno, that little transgression is Shakesperian compare to the toe-curling tripe the banned banner band have produced!

ArdeeBhoy

12/09/2014, 10:01 PM

Rumours doing the rounds earlier on social media of a Pats fan getting arrested earlier, in a OTT manner, for wanting to bring a Palestinian flag into Richmond, don't know if true?

ArdeeBhoy

12/09/2014, 10:03 PM

That's all well and good, but what use is it to Dundalk in the here and now? What can Dundalk do to challenge UEFA, even if they wanted to?
Kick up the biggest possible stink about it possible. Fans should write at the very least to their MEP's to highlight the issue.

wonder88

12/09/2014, 10:14 PM

outspoken

12/09/2014, 11:42 PM

My mate saw the guy getting arrested was just over by the chipper van, a lot of gardai involved and very aggressive according to him.

EDIT: just seen the video online looks very very OTT

The Donie Forde

13/09/2014, 7:43 AM

Seemingly, the Israelis have threatened to occupy any LOI ground displaying Palestinian flags. I wouldn't be too harsh on our own authorities for trying to avoid this.

nigel-harps1954

13/09/2014, 9:06 AM

Seemingly, the Israelis have threatened to occupy any LOI ground displaying Palestinian flags. I wouldn't be too harsh on our own authorities for trying to avoid this.

Well, if it puts extra bums on seats it might be worth a go..

Dodge

13/09/2014, 9:21 AM

It was a Bohs fan according to twitter. Maybe the Pats owner has a policy of not allowing Palestine flags into his ground. Still I am very surprised if someone could be arrested for having a flag. Time to get R Sadlier's view I think.
He was arrested because he refused to allow Gardai search his bag, and then pushed a Guard

It was nothing to do with a flag. Nor can Pats owner ask for someone to be arrested, but then you know that

ArdeeBhoy

13/09/2014, 11:15 AM

Is this the video?
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=717131195002341

DannyInvincible

13/09/2014, 11:18 AM

Kick up the biggest possible stink about it possible. Fans should write at the very least to their MEP's to highlight the issue.

What might kicking up a stink achieve though? Even if local MEPs did care about the matter - a minority of supporters wronging their club without any consideration for the consequences - MEPs don't have the authority to make UEFA's punishment disappear. The fact remains that Dundalk were in breach of agreed competition regulations as a result of the conduct of some of their supporters who were themselves in breach of ground regulations to which they'd agreed to adhere by virtue of their presence in Oriel Park. The legality of the punishment is not in question and there is no issue insofar as nobody has been mistreated. The decent thing would be for the supporters to accept responsibility and somehow cover the fine they cost their club.

Dodge

13/09/2014, 11:34 AM

He was arrested because he refused to allow Gardai search his bag, and then pushed a Guard

I should point out Bohs fans think this is (very) wrong. I wasn't there and the earlier post was based on what others told me

ArdeeBhoy

13/09/2014, 11:35 AM

Hear what you say DI, but vehemently disagree. Have UEFA ever even been challenged by MEP's?

Change only comes from challenging the established order. Including the clowns in UEFA.

DannyInvincible

13/09/2014, 12:15 PM

Hear what you say DI, but vehemently disagree. Have UEFA ever even been challenged by MEP's?

Change only comes from challenging the established order. Including the clowns in UEFA.

UEFA are no saints, but in this instance, and as unfortunate a situation as it is for Dundalk, they've not actually wronged anyone. What would an MEP challenge them on? How would they go about forcing change? UEFA are a private organisation, membership of which is voluntary and conditional upon acceptance of the organisation's regulations. Nobody is compelled to join. As a member association, however, the FAI voluntarily adhere to these regulations, as do Dundalk, in turn, as they're aligned with the FAI as members of the LOI. You either conform to the rules - some of which may indeed be pretty stupid - or you don't take part in the party. You either accept all or nothing. There's no middle ground or picking and choosing which rules you would like to apply to you. UEFA aren't a public body over which MEPs can wield political influence. Regardless, all this talk of getting local MEPs involved still ignoring the immediate fact that Dundalk have still had €18,000 deducted from their competition bonus because of the conduct of a minority of irresponsible supporters. Why shouldn't these supporters be held responsible for their actions? By their entry into the stadium, they agreed without qualification to adhere to the ground regulations in effect. One of those regulations demands that persons in attendance comply with the instructions of the stewards. By breaching those regulations, they broke what you could call a legal promise to their club.

White Horse

13/09/2014, 1:52 PM

He was arrested because he refused to allow Gardai search his bag, and then pushed a Guard

It was nothing to do with a flag. Nor can Pats owner ask for someone to be arrested, but then you know that

It is very unhelpful to post hearsay as fact.

ArdeeBhoy

13/09/2014, 2:20 PM

UEFA are no saints, but in this instance, and as unfortunate a situation as it is for Dundalk, they've not actually wronged anyone. What would an MEP challenge them on? How would they go about forcing change? UEFA are a private organisation, membership of which is voluntary and conditional upon acceptance of the organisation's regulations. Nobody is compelled to join or conform. As a member association, the FAI voluntarily adhere to these regulations, as do Dundalk, in turn, as they're aligned with the FAI as members of the LOI. You either conform to the rules - some of which are indeed pretty stupid - or you don't take part in the party. You either accept all or nothing. There's no middle ground or picking and choosing which rules you would like to apply to you. UEFA aren't a public body over which MEPs can wield political influence. Regardless, all this talk of getting local MEPs involved still ignoring the immediate fact that Dundalk have still had €18,000 deducted from their competition bonus because of the conduct of a minority of irresponsible supporters. Why shouldn't these supporters be held responsible for their actions? By their entry into the stadium, they agreed without qualification to adhere to the ground regulations in effect. One of those regulations demands that persons in attendance comply with the instructions of the stewards. By breaching those regulations, they broke what you could call a legal promise to their club.
Aye, probably, even more reason for them to be challenged then!

DannyInvincible

13/09/2014, 2:24 PM

But challenged how? Via what process?

Martinho II

13/09/2014, 4:16 PM

Is this the video?
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=717131195002341

correct! as Outspoken said I was at the pats game and happened to just walk away from that chipper after ordering my food! as I was walking by all hell broke out loose and I turned around and seen a fan lying on the ground in handcuffs and three cops around him! his mates goin hell for leather why he was arrested! I had no idea who it was-whether it was Bohs or Shels as he had no jersey or scarf on him! I went quickly back to my seat!

ArdeeBhoy

13/09/2014, 5:40 PM

But challenged how? Via what process?
More flags, direct action/protests...
C'mon Danny, you're a Doire man. Should know how these things work.

Charlie Darwin

13/09/2014, 5:47 PM

I should point out Bohs fans think this is (very) wrong. I wasn't there and the earlier post was based on what others told me
You should edit that into your original post. If people only see that they could assume you were reporting what you saw yourself.

DannyInvincible

13/09/2014, 8:23 PM

More flags, direct action/protests...
C'mon Danny, you're a Doire man. Should know how these things work.

I'm not sure how such measures would actually work though. More flags where? At European games next year? That would simply provoke further fines, would it not? What sort of direct action against UEFA? What form would the protest take? What would it achieve and who exactly is going to protest? None of this will change the fact that Dundalk have been fined due to the behaviour of an irresponsible few of their supporters acting against the best interests of their club. League of Ireland clubs don't have loose money to be flushing down the drain. If a small group of fans are going to breach their club's ground regulations and cost their club €18,000 for further breach of competition regulations as a direct result of their conduct, the very least they could do would be to take responsibility for their actions. It's a very reasonable expectation. I understand that Shamrock Rovers supporters, for example, acknowledge responsibility for their actions and cover any FAI fines their club incurs as a result of their use of flares and smoke bombs. That's a reasonable and decent position.

Sheridan

13/09/2014, 10:03 PM

You should edit that into your original post. If people only see that they could assume you were reporting what you saw yourself.
Indeed, there's far too much pointy-headed the-law-is-the-law-is-the-law crap in this thread already.

ArdeeBhoy

13/09/2014, 11:09 PM

I'm not sure how such measures would actually work though. More flags where? At European games next year? That would simply provoke further fines, would it not? What sort of direct action against UEFA? What form would the protest take? What would it achieve and who exactly is going to protest? None of this will change the fact that Dundalk have been fined due to the behaviour of an irresponsible few of their supporters acting against the best interests of their club. League of Ireland clubs don't have loose money to be flushing down the drain. If a small group of fans are going to breach their club's ground regulations and cost their club €18,000 for further breach of competition regulations as a direct result of their conduct, the very least they could do would be to take responsibility for their actions. It's a very reasonable expectation. I understand that Shamrock Rovers supporters, for example, acknowledge responsibility for their actions and cover any FAI fines their club incurs as a result of their use of flares and smoke bombs. That's a reasonable and decent position.

Just Google 'direct action'...
There's yer answer!
;)

As for the clubs or fans, just hope as many as possible protest to highlight UEFA's sanctimony and double standards...

DannyInvincible

13/09/2014, 11:16 PM

Indeed, there's far too much pointy-headed the-law-is-the-law-is-the-law crap in this thread already.

The point I'm making is not that the law is the law is the law. If someone wants to break the rules (on someone else's property), that's their choice, but they should at least take responsibility for the consequences of their actions rather than leave someone else up sh*t creek to suffer the results. What's so "crap" about that?

DannyInvincible

13/09/2014, 11:40 PM

Just Google 'direct action'...
There's yer answer!
;)

As for the clubs or fans, just hope as many as possible protest to highlight UEFA's sanctimony and double standards...

But what about that €18,000 Dundalk were fined? Who is or should be responsible for that?

ArdeeBhoy

14/09/2014, 1:23 AM

As far as I'm concerned they shouldn't pay. But it's up to them. They probably will just get it deducted from prize money...

jinxy lilywhite

14/09/2014, 8:39 AM

The club is in no position to pay. It will be deducted from our prize money. I can't see the fine being rescinded either.

I love the non Dundalkfc supporter saying we should do this and that, they should really just get over themselves and give it a rest.

The issue is not the rule, it is that a certain group of supporters flew the flags, where asked to remove them and told of the implications for the club, yet they still did it. They should of been turfed out of OP and told not too come back.

ArdeeBhoy

14/09/2014, 9:29 AM

Except that I'd say it about any club whose fans supported the Palestinians...not just Dundalk...

DannyInvincible

14/09/2014, 12:08 PM

As far as I'm concerned they shouldn't pay. But it's up to them. They probably will just get it deducted from prize money...

The club have no choice in the matter though. Even if they did have such an option, refusing to pay a fine would only result in much more serious consequences for both the club and, I would imagine, the FAI. Maintaining such a stance would be impractical and unrealistic. So, the question remains really as to who should be held responsible. In my mind, it's pretty simple really; if a group of individuals want to breach stadium and competition regulations, they have the choice to do that - that's up to them - but, at the very least, they should accept moral responsibility for the repercussions of their actions rather than have an innocent other (the club) suffer instead. No LOI club has money to be throwing away at avoidable fines. If the individuals concerned are not prepared to take responsibility for their actions - it's an entirely reasonable expectation to hold of any mature adult to accept responsibility for his actions - and fork out for the €18,000 they've cost their club, then they simply shouldn't have breached the terms of their entry in the first place and should have ceased waving the flags as soon as they were instructed by the stewards to stop. It's as simple as that.

DannyInvincible

14/09/2014, 12:34 PM

Except that I'd say it about any club whose fans supported the Palestinians...not just Dundalk...

It's easy to say that though when you don't have to worry about the repercussions.

Here's a quick analogy thought up purely for the sake of argument, as I'm not sure what the actual law on the matter may be, but, say, you have a guest around your house and he starts up a bit of a racket, shouting "Free Palestine!" slogans through a megaphone, waving Palestine flags out your windows and the like. He's got bongo drums and all; the full works. He's kicked up such a racket that the police have been called by your neighbours. You might well agree with your guest's cause, but you tell him to maybe give it a rest for a bit as he's attracting unwanted attention from the authorities. He persists, however, and beats his drums/shouts even louder. As a result, you're landed with a hefty fine for nuisance/disturbance as a result of the noise emanating from your property. Meanwhile, he gets off scot-free. What is your feeling on the matter? Would you pay the fine even though it was his fault or would you refuse to pay the fine and risk further more serious punishment by the law? Would you harbour resentment towards him and feel that he is possibly indebted to you in some way? Would you welcome him back again if it was something he persistently threatened to do?