Dundalk Fined For Palestine Flag at Euro Game

[Mr A]

On the wider point here I think it's wrong to bring politics into football. People have their strongly held beliefs and that's fine, but there will be others there that will have opposing views. What happens if everyone starts bringing their politics to the game? It could get very messy. There's no need to bring it into football, there are plenty of other arenas to do that. At Harps we've always had players, fans and directors from across the communities (there was a website at one stage devoted to Harps and Rangers for example) and I'm glad that we've been able to focus on the club and on football rather than whatever people follow outside of it. Feck knows we find enough to row about without bringing politics in as well.

[White Horse]

Given the huge TV exposure of the Champions League in particular, it is quite reasonable for UEFA to want to avoid games becoming a means of getting exposure for political views. It is questionable whether displaying a national flag of a FIFA member team should be categorised as political. However the SSA have clearly admitted in their idiotic statements that flying the Palestinian flag was intended to be a political statement.

[colonelwest]

Given the huge TV exposure of the Champions League in particular, it is quite reasonable for UEFA to want to avoid games becoming a means of getting exposure for political views. It is questionable whether displaying a national flag of a FIFA member team should be categorised as political. However the SSA have clearly admitted in their idiotic statements that flying the Palestinian flag was intended to be a political statement.

"This was in no way a political statement... then spends the next 4 paragraphs explaining how it was a political statement and woe us is and it's not our fault."

One read of it and you can tell clear as day who wrote it.

[GCdfc]

They haven't, they really haven't.

http://www.farenet.org/news/
for a small taster.


I never heard of FARE before but looking at it, it looks like a place for people to make unproven accusations with no recourse.

[GypsyBlackCat]

They haven't, they really haven't.

http://www.farenet.org/news/
for a small taster.

http://www.farenet.org/news/incidents-reported-fare-july-2014/

July 2014 – UEFA Europa League: Ferencvárosi TC v Sliema Wanderers FCA group of Ferencvárosi TC supporters displayed far-right banners and performed Nazi salutes.
Details of the incident were passed to UEFA for action.
For the incidents in both first and second leg matches (01 and 10 July) against Sliema, UEFA sanctioned Ferencvárosi TC with a partial stadium closure for its next UEFA competitions match and a fine of 20 000€.

[ArdeeBhoy]

They've been at it for years...plenty of others they turn a blind eye to.

[bennocelt]

Ok. I agree. But what does it have to do with football? Why bring politics into football? What has Palestine got to do with Dundalk FC? If it was against an Israeli team I'd understand.

UEFA aren't just picking on Dundalk. Israeli and Ukranian clubs are banned from playing at home. Maribor, Besiktas, Steaua Bucharest and Debrecen have all been fined for the same thing.

Its called showing solidarity with the people of Gaza. And football and politics are intertwined, its very naive to think its not. I could give a long list of clubs and their supporters that show thats the case

[White Horse]

Its called showing solidarity with the people of Gaza. And football and politics are intertwined, its very naive to think its not. I could give a long list of clubs and their supporters that show thats the case

Should Liverpool fans, for instance, display a banner saying vote Labour at Champions League games?

[GypsyBlackCat]

Its called showing solidarity with the people of Gaza. And football and politics are intertwined, its very naive to think its not. I could give a long list of clubs and their supporters that show thats the case


But they shouldn't be interwined. Why only Gaza and not the Kurds, the Yazidi or the Iraqi Christians? There's conflicts going on in Ukraine, South Sudan and Nigeria. It might be PC gone mad or UEFA been over-protective but the SSA broke the rules and now Dundlak FC have to pay the price sadly.

I support same-sex marriage but I don't see the point of bringing a flag showing my support to Dalymount or the SoL. The same way I wouldn't bring a Bohs or SAFC flag to a march or a protest.

[Sheridan]

On the wider point here I think it's wrong to bring politics into football. People have their strongly held beliefs and that's fine, but there will be others there that will have opposing views. What happens if everyone starts bringing their politics to the game? It could get very messy.
Yeah, next thing you know political elites who brutalise their people will be using Champions League clubs to launder their money and reputations, or something mad like that.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But they shouldn't be interwined. Why only Gaza and not the Kurds, the Yazidi or the Iraqi Christians? There's conflicts going on in Ukraine, South Sudan and Nigeria. It might be PC gone mad or UEFA been over-protective but the SSA broke the rules and now Dundlak FC have to pay the price sadly.

I support same-sex marriage but I don't see the point of bringing a flag showing my support to Dalymount or the SoL. The same way I wouldn't bring a Bohs or SAFC flag to a march or a protest.

Yes, but that's you.
Lots of other people feel differently, thankfully.

The other groups you mention, have been persecuted, but not like the Palestinians or for as long.

[bennocelt]

Should Liverpool fans, for instance, display a banner saying vote Labour at Champions League games?


Eh, they can if they want

[bennocelt]

But they shouldn't be interwined. Why only Gaza and not the Kurds, the Yazidi or the Iraqi Christians? There's conflicts going on in Ukraine, South Sudan and Nigeria. It might be PC gone mad or UEFA been over-protective but the SSA broke the rules and now Dundlak FC have to pay the price sadly.

I support same-sex marriage but I don't see the point of bringing a flag showing my support to Dalymount or the SoL. The same way I wouldn't bring a Bohs or SAFC flag to a march or a protest.


You really have to ask that question? :rolleyes:

[NeverFeltBetter]

I'll go with "What is a popular liberal cause/whoever heard of Kurdistan anyway?" for 200 Alex.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm, that only makes limited sense...

[colonelwest]

Hmm, that only makes limited sense...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEghu90QJH4


Dundalk FC statement:

http://www.dundalkfc.com/updated-statement/



Updated Statement



By Dundalk FC (http://www.dundalkfc.com/author/admin/)
• August 25, 2014

Dundalk FC (http://www.dundalkfc.com/author/admin/)


Print (http://www.dundalkfc.com/updated-statement/#)

Dundalk Football Club would like to thank the many supporters who have contacted the club with supportive messages in the last three days. We share their deep concern over this serious incident.
As we stated on Saturday, we did not wish to comment on this matter until after we have received the full written judgement from UEFA. However, due to the unprecedented amount of interest in this issue we feel we need to make this statement.
We strongly encourage all Dundalk supporters to please allow the club to deal with this matter in the correct manner. We are concerned that any statement from any organisation that claims to represent any group of Dundalk supporters may be misinterpreted and could make this situation worse. In particular, we are concerned at any supporter(s) making direct contact with UEFA.
This situation arose because of the refusal of certain individuals to listen to our appeals at the Hajduk Split match to refrain from doing anything that may damage the club. Given that our original appeals were ignored, we would ask these individuals to listen to us now. Please allow us to deal with this matter without the fear that any supporter(s) may do something that could potentially make this worse or damage our chances of a successful appeal.

We share the concern of Dundalk supporters who fear that they are being misrepresented by a small group of individuals, a number of whom have been involved in other issues that have cost the club a lot of money in fines and who have attempted to create divisions between the club and supporters.
We are aware that this small group of people do not speak for Dundalk supporters and have no right to act on their behalf. We also appreciate that a number of fans who have been involved with this group have done so in good faith and have done nothing wrong. A number of supporters who were involved with this group are now distancing themselves from the ringleaders that have been causing on-going problems in Oriel Park.
From Dundalk FC’s point of view, we are distressed that these individuals are embroiling the club with the tragic situation in Gaza. We are football club, a non-political organisation, and we are doing our best to run the club to the best of our ability. Recently during the local elections, we refused to allow any political party to advertise in Oriel Park. However, we are aware that the club does not exist in a vacuum were outside issues have no impact on us all. Despite this, we are shocked that we are releasing a statement that has any connection with this tragic issue.
This long statement is an attempt to explain our problem right now. On one side we are being punished by UEFA. Dundalk FC do not believe that these flags are “political”, “inappropriate” or “illicit”. However, the debate on whether sport and politics is very complex and not one that we feel particularly qualified to make a judgement on. However, UEFA have their rules on this matter. We simply had no choice whatsoever but to respect the wishes of the UEFA delegate on the night who explained to us that due to the conflict that either Palestinian or Israeli flags have a political context and therefore should be removed immediately.
On the other side, we have been punished by the actions of a small group of individuals who ignored our appeals after the serious consequences of these actions were outlined to us by the UEFA delegate.
In fact, the match came within seven minutes of not even kicking-off and then, in the second-half, the game was very nearly stopped after the flags were displayed again on a number of occasions. This was after club officials explained the very serious ramifications of the use of these flags to these individuals. These individuals wilfully and deliberately ignored our appeals and we now find ourselves in this very difficult situation.
A number of supporters have contacted us to disassociate themselves from this group. We agree with the Dundalk supporters who have contacted us to encourage us to revisit our ground regulations and code of conduct to supporters. This has gone far enough.
The club has a lot of work to do in many areas. This issue is serving as a distraction from the many matters that the club’s volunteers and officials are required to deal with on a daily basis. It is now two years since the takeover of the club and we have come a long way and are enjoying a magnificent season. Yet despite our success, a small group of supporters have been continuously trying to undermine us and drive a wedge between the club and the supporters.
The club will await the written verdict from UEFA and then discuss our options with legal advisors. That is all we can do at this stage.
This issue may not be resolved any time soon. So, in the meantime, we want all Dundalk supporters to focus all of your attention on Friday’s match with Bohemians and getting behind our wonderfully dedicated players and staff as we face another tough match.




edit, bolding the clubs in the original statement, not my own

[ArdeeBhoy]

Still doesn't explain the last part of NFB's post though.

Nor UEFA's continual double standards/hypocrisy. Dundalk should make representations to the CAS on that basis.

[Nesta99]

The appeal will be to UEFA, it is a long way from CAS yet for any representations to be made. I dont think it will go as far as CAS. The statement from the club indicates to me that they are waiting for details of the fine and presumebly the breakdown for the different issues. Then decide on what to do.

[Mr_Parker]

Dundalk have little or no chance of winning this on appeal, imo. The best they can hope for is for the fine to be reduced. I would assumes that the fine for the flag(s) is 10k out the 18k.

[wonder88]

How the people of Gaza which is being bombed to bits tonight would wish their cause/plight was popular.

[Nesta99]

Dundalk little or know chance of winning this on appeal, imo. The best they can hope for is for the fine to be reduced. I would assumes that the fine for the flag(s) is 10k out the 18k.

Thats it really, I doubt anyone expects the fine to be overturned but hopefully reduced. If reduced for the flag element it may not make a significant difference to the amount of the fine as the fine has 3 elements to it(i think).

[White Horse]

This is getting embarrassing.


"Republican Network for Unity have organised a picket to show their solidarity with Dundalk F.C and to display disgust for UEFA.

Assemble at Derryhale hotel, opposite the entrance to the Football ground. Friday 29th August. 7PM. All welcome."

http://www.republicanunity.org/rnu-dundalk-call-for-no-payment-on-uefa-fine/

These political parasites are NOT welcome any where near Oriel Park.

[Mr A]

Bloody hell. It'll be the Judean People's Front turning up next.

[White Horse]

Bloody hell. It'll be the Judean People's Front turning up next.

Well Bohs will be in town, which means the Guards will have their dogs, horses, and the armed response unit at Oriel Park.

[DannyInvincible]

I think the fine gets deducted from the total prize money received so we don't have a choice in the matter.
The club should appeal this to UEFA and then to the CAS.

To be honest, if the case ever was to go to CAS, the panel might even see it as an "aggravating circumstance" that the stewards were alerted to the flags' display (along with their alleged-inappropriate nature by the UEFA delegate) and, even though they clearly knew where the flags were situated and had easy access to them, as demonstrated by their initial request to the flag-wavers, they failed to confiscate them and prevent their further display. That the flags would be waved again because they were left in the hands of the known perpetrators was very much foreseeable and avoidable. UEFA might well view matters similarly if Dundalk were to lodge an appeal with them.

UEFA are savvy and familiar with the process of how CAS operates; their disciplinary and legal affairs divisions won't often make careless mistakes and silly errors of judgment. If you were going to take them on in the court, you'd need to be pretty sure of your case. Besides, you'd have to appeal to UEFA first and they'd have to reject that appeal (on dubious grounds). The whole process would also be pretty expensive. Possibly even more costly than the fine itself?


Dundalk FC have no links with Palestine. That's the difference with Ajax and Spurs. They both have links with Judism (not a religious link). Celtic have links with Ireland.

How do you objectively quantify or measure these "links" though? If you can acknowledge that the rule is as fluffy and nebulous as your posts on the matter seemingly imply, so as to be bordering on inherently-conflicting and ultimately-meaningless, why shouldn't or can't Dundalk argue that the SSE have humanitarian "links" to Palestine? They may have supporters who identify with cultural Judaism, but do Ajax and Spurs have official links (or even informal links, for that matter) with the state of Israel? Even if all Ajax and all Spurs fans were indeed Jewish anyway (and they're not), Judaism and Zionism are not one and the same.


It's getting even better.

...

SSA: "In Ireland citizens have a Constitutional right of freedom of expression. This right does not vanish at a football turnstile."

Jesus, the cries of oppression... Actually, it does vanish. With rights come responsibilities. On the other side of that turnstile is what's known as private property. Freedom of speech can be restricted when it conflicts with the rights and reputations of others. If you're to remain welcome on someone else's private property, there is, at the very least, an implicit agreement that you play by their rules; you don't have any absolute right to express yourself contrary to their interests and wishes. If they want you to pipe down, they have no obligation to listen to you and can legally restrict you or throw you out. Being shunned as an unwelcome trespasser isn't a denial of freedom to express oneself. There's plenty of public space upon which expressions can be freely made. Freedom of expression is something that the state bestows upon its citizens in order to protect them from a potentially overbearing or all-powerful government.

I see Dundalk's statement mentioned the club's "ground regulations and code of conduct". I'm not quite sure how, and I'd imagine, if it was possible, clubs all around Europe would already have thought of it, but could there be some way a club could argue that the supporters concerned, rather than the club itself, should be held liable for misconduct or breach of ground regulations that have caused material loss for the club?


There are unsubstantiated reports that UEFA are seeking to victimise this small club for displaying these flags with a gigantic 18,000 euro fine.

Unsubstantiated?...

I don't have much time for the bluster and show-boating of a bunch of vain intransigents who've cost their club a significant deal of money through their stubborn irresponsibility, but, at the same time, if UEFA had their way, football would be a very sterile place. I have no issue with political expressions at football matches per se - I don't think football and politics can be separated; we're political beings by nature - and I've already given my opinion on the regulation in question - it's daft and arbitrary - but it exists and that's the reality whether we like it or not, so if a group of supporters are going to engage in outlawed activity at significant cost to their club, they should at least do the decent thing; take responsibility and cover the fine.


On the wider point here I think it's wrong to bring politics into football. People have their strongly held beliefs and that's fine, but there will be others there that will have opposing views. What happens if everyone starts bringing their politics to the game? It could get very messy. There's no need to bring it into football, there are plenty of other arenas to do that. At Harps we've always had players, fans and directors from across the communities (there was a website at one stage devoted to Harps and Rangers for example) and I'm glad that we've been able to focus on the club and on football rather than whatever people follow outside of it. Feck knows we find enough to row about without bringing politics in as well.

I hope you realise that, whether you mean for it to be perceived as such or not, what you express above is an inherently political view. :)

It is undeniably a contentious point of view that relates to how you believe other humans should act or behave in a particular situation and would arouse great disagreement with those who wish to see and use their community's club as a vehicle for wider communal expression, as is so common around Europe. Football clubs have traditionally been channels through which their supporters have expressed their communal identities; be they ethnic, national, cultural, religious, political or whatever. I don't think it's possible to remove these elements from football because the supporters and their intrinsic identities are an integral part of the game. To pretend that politics and football are separate and mutually exclusive entities is to impossibly try and deny the human nature of the game's adherents.

For what it's worth, if there was a choice in the matter, I wouldn't like to see these elements removed from the world of football anyway. I loathe football grounds that have more in common with a clinic. The game would be soulless and terribly bland without the emotion and humanity its supporters bring to it with their various baggage.


How the people of Gaza which is being bombed to bits tonight would wish their cause/plight was popular.

So you keep saying and I doubt anyone here would actually disagree with that; their plight is a tragedy of unspeakable proportions. It's a moral outrage what the Israeli state is doing and has been doing this past half-century. In an ideal world, we'd all be able to say what we liked, wherever we liked. Or, even better, there would be no Israeli occupation and bombardment of Palestine for us to get disgusted with. But that doesn't really deal with the (admittedly much more trivial) issue at hand; what is your solution to this present predicament in which Dundalk find themselves exactly? It's an insignificant one in the grand and worldly scheme of things, but it's still a rather sh*tty problem that Dundalk have to deal with. This is Dundalk's reality and it doesn't pale into non-existence simply because it's not as important an issue as Gaza. Is it right that Dundalk have been involuntarily dragged into this humanitarian matter through a combination of stupid UEFA regulations and irresponsible flag-wavers? UEFA might have a fairly rotten and unsavoury core, but it still doesn't change the fact that Dundalk are down quite a lot of money due to the irresponsible posturing of some of their supporters. Will those supporters cough up the fine?...

[DannyInvincible]

Bloody hell. It'll be the Judean People's Front turning up next.

There could be trouble; the Palestinian People's Front and the People's Front of Palestine are already down to attend.

[GCdfc]

This is getting embarrassing.


"Republican Network for Unity have organised a picket to show their solidarity with Dundalk F.C and to display disgust for UEFA.

Assemble at Derryhale hotel, opposite the entrance to the Football ground. Friday 29th August. 7PM. All welcome."

http://www.republicanunity.org/rnu-dundalk-call-for-no-payment-on-uefa-fine/

These political parasites are NOT welcome any where near Oriel Park.


Funny that. I believe that some of SSA's leaders are affiliated strongly to groups that are affiliated to RNU.

[Macy]

Should Liverpool fans, for instance, display a banner saying vote Labour at Champions League games?
What about Justice for the 96 banners and flags - is that not a political campaign?

[GypsyBlackCat]

How do you objectively quantify or measure these "links" though? If you can acknowledge that the rule is as fluffy and nebulous as your posts on the matter seemingly imply, so as to be bordering on inherently-conflicting and ultimately-meaningless, why shouldn't or can't Dundalk argue that the SSE have humanitarian "links" to Palestine? They may have supporters who identify with cultural Judaism, but do Ajax and Spurs have official links (or even informal links, for that matter) with the state of Israel? Even if all Ajax and all Spurs fans were indeed Jewish anyway (and they're not), Judaism and Zionism are not one and the same.

..

I got this from an Ajax website:


For Ajax, the image of being a Jewish club comes from the fact that Amsterdam was called the "Jerusalem of the West" before World War II. Some 80,000 Jews are said to have lived in the city at that time, and many were Ajax fans. The De Meer Stadium, where the team played home games until the 1990s, was in eastern Amsterdam, where most of the city's Jews lived at the time.
"When Ajax played teams from more provincial regions, the guest fans would take streetcars to the stadium from the main train station and go through the Jewish quarter. That's how many people saw Jews for the first time in their lives," says Hans Knoop, a Jewish journalist and spokesperson for a foundation that addresses anti-Semitism in Dutch football (http://foot.ie/international/topic/football/).
After World War II, Ajax also had some prominent Jewish leaders, among them Jaap van Prag and his son Michael, who both served as club president, along with Uri Coronel, who also served in that position. Among the players on the club's celebrated teams in the 1960s and early 1970s were Jews Bennie Muller and Sjaak Swaart, not to mention Salo Muller, a physiotherapist loved by players and fans alike.
During and after the 1970s, Ajax was repeatedly subjected to anti-Semitic hostility in the Dutch national league. To fight back, the hooligan group "F Side" demonstratively took on a Jewish image in 1976. The group is still active today, though its members aren't particularly interested in solidarity with Israel or Judaism, says journalist Knoop. "Some 90 percent of Ajax fans don't even know where Israel is," he tells SPIEGEL ONLINE. "When they yell 'Jews, Jews!' or 'Super Jews,' it's about firing up the team and nothing else."


Alot of Ajax fans and Jews don't like the link and wish Ajax would drop it. Also in England, the Jewish community, Peter Herbert and Kick It Out have asked Spurs fans to stop the Y-d chants as it's offence.

[GypsyBlackCat]

What about Justice for the 96 banners and flags - is that not a political campaign?


It's has a lot to do with football. LFC are looking for justice for their fans. So there's the link. Robbie Fowler was fined for wearing a t-shirt showing support for the dockers. It was a stupid fine but them the rules UEFA go by.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yes, but their rules are moronic and should be challenged at every opportunity.

[GypsyBlackCat]

Yes, but their rules are moronic and should be challenged at every opportunity.


Like the one when a team got kicked out of Europe for fielding a player who was ineligible two minutes from time in a tie that was already over. And then there was the FC Sion affair.

[ArdeeBhoy]

And your point is...

[colonelwest]

Funny that. I believe that some of SSA's leaders are affiliated strongly to groups that are affiliated to RNU.

One of the "co chairman" :rolleyes:/ whatever you want to call him has recently got out of prison and is associated big time with that other shower.

Sadlier on RTE last night about it if it's not been posted yet, absolutely bang on with what he said:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sGQ8iCGksw

Also just to say as well that the SSA was originally set up by a couple of young fellas who are for want of a better term "proper" supporters. Instead of hanging around street corners or acting the maggot etc; they put their time, effort and money into making flags, tifos, displays and helping out around the club.

They're a credit to the club, themselves, their parents etc and it's an absolute shame that all their good work has been sullied and co-opted by a couple of middle aged auld fellas with axes to grind and delusions of grandeur who want to cause ructions and be the pied piper to the rest who are only there for the cans and the wannabe green street experience, not to mention bullying anyone and everyone who doesn't do what they say.

[GypsyBlackCat]

And your point is...

IMO, Legia shouldn't have been kicked out of the Champions League as the player had no impact on the game. It wasn't cheating, it was an administive mistake. But UEFA rules say if an ineligible plays for his team the game is void. Legia have plenty of grounds to appeal (like Dundalk have) but the rules are there in black and white.

[bennocelt]

Seems to me that Dundalk FC have had issues with their support now for a while yet they dont look like they are willing to resolve it in anyway. Just blaming supporters for everything wont solve anything, and leads to mad situations like this.

[White Horse]

Also just to say as well that the SSA was originally set up by a couple of young fellas who are for want of a better term "proper" supporters. Instead of hanging around street corners or acting the maggot etc; they put their time, effort and money into making flags, tifos, displays and helping out around the club.

They're a credit to the club, themselves, their parents etc and it's an absolute shame that all their good work has been sullied and co-opted by a couple of middle aged auld fellas with axes to grind and delusions of grandeur who want to cause ructions and be the pied piper to the rest who are only there for the cans and the wannabe green street experience, not to mention bullying anyone and everyone who doesn't do what they say.

This is a very important point and I would hate for these young lads to think that they are looked down upon by the rest of the fans.

The problem, and it is a substantial ome, rests with one or two older individuals.

[White Horse]

Seems to me that Dundalk FC have had issues with their support now for a while yet they dont look like they are willing to resolve it in anyway. Just blaming supporters for everything wont solve anything, and leads to mad situations like this.

Dundalk FC have had great support, home and away. There is an issue with one or two individuals and their attempt to steer impressionable young lads into areas that cause problems for the club.

[Dodge]

Dundalk FC have had great support, home and away. There is an issue with one or two individuals and their attempt to steer impressionable young lads into areas that cause problems for the club.
Definitely seems like an ego thing from a couple of fans alright.

1) Told numerous times to take the flag down. Did it anyway
2) Sought "legal advice" and contacted UEFA directly

No one with an ounce of self-awareness would do either of these

[ArdeeBhoy]

IMO, Legia shouldn't have been kicked out of the Champions League as the player had no impact on the game. It wasn't cheating, it was an administive mistake. But UEFA rules say if an ineligible plays for his team the game is void. Legia have plenty of grounds to appeal (like Dundalk have) but the rules are there in black and white.

They appealed even to the CAS, who have a lot more credibility than UEFA currently. And it was rejected. It's hardly as if it's not happened before.

[DannyInvincible]

CAS turned away Legia's initial request "that [the club] be provisionally admitted to participate in UEFA Champions League matches until the CAS renders its final arbitral award" in order to confirm that the Maribor-Celtic tie could go ahead without Celtic having to worry that Legia might be reinstated at their expense, but Legia are still proceeding with a case for compensation anyway, however ill-advised that might be. It's not as if progress guaranteed them Champions League qualification anyway. They still would have had to navigate through another qualifying round, so it would be hard to quantify any potential loss anyway, even if they did have a legitimate case (which they don't).


I got this from an Ajax website:



Alot of Ajax fans and Jews don't like the link and wish Ajax would drop it. Also in England, the Jewish community, Peter Herbert and Kick It Out have asked Spurs fans to stop the Y-d chants as it's offence.

I recall that, aye, but it wasn't the clubs' Jewish links (which are somewhat dubious anyway) that I was questioning. I was questioning why they'd be allowed to display flags of Israel. Is it actually the case that UEFA allow them to wave Israel flags? Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing. Whilst Judaism is a cultural/religious identity, Zionism is very much a political force.

[GypsyBlackCat]

They appealed even to the CAS, who have a lot more credibility than UEFA currently. And it was rejected. It's hardly as if it's not happened before.

But it was harsh on Legia, just like this fine is harsh on Dundalk. It was a mistake and a misunderstanding of the rules. If we go by DFC statement, it's even harsher because Dundalk were going by the rules and some idiots broke them.

[DannyInvincible]

Seems to me that Dundalk FC have had issues with their support now for a while yet they dont look like they are willing to resolve it in anyway. Just blaming supporters for everything wont solve anything, and leads to mad situations like this.

What else can Dundalk do though? It's a no-win for them; they're seen as either silencing their supporters' voices on the day of the game if they fulfill their obligation as requested by the UEFA delegate or they're seen as blaming the supporters for pointing out that it was these individuals' actions that got the club fined. The only other option is to refuse to recognise UEFA's authority and opt out of UEFA competition.

[GypsyBlackCat]

CAS turned away Legia's initial request "that [the club] be provisionally admitted to participate in UEFA Champions League matches until the CAS renders its final arbitral award" in order to confirm that the Maribor-Celtic tie could go ahead without Celtic having to worry that Legia might be reinstated at their expense, but Legia are still proceeding with a case for compensation anyway, however ill-advised that might be. It's not as if progress guaranteed them Champions League qualification anyway. They still would have had to navigate through another qualifying round, so it would be hard to quantify any potential loss anyway, even if they did have a legitimate case (which they don't).



I recall that, aye, but it wasn't the clubs' Jewish links (which are somewhat dubious anyway) that I was questioning. I was questioning why they'd be allowed to display flags of Israel. Is it actually the case that UEFA allow them to wave Israel flags? Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing. Whilst Judaism is a cultural/religious identity, Zionism is very much a political force.

I understand what you mean. As I understand UEFA feel both Palestinian/Israeli flags will be seen to be as a political statements because of the current conflict. So we have to want and see if Ajax and Spurs will be fined if they use Israeli flags. It's difficult to call with Ajax and Spurs but Rangers and Linfield have displayed Israeli flags at European games in the past which is a political statement.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But it was harsh on Legia, just like this fine is harsh on Dundalk. It was a mistake and a misunderstanding of the rules. If we go by DFC statement, it's even harsher because Dundalk were going by the rules and some idiots broke them.
Except that the CAS decided this and Legia even admitted they were in the wrong eventually...


As I understand UEFA feel both Palestinian/Israeli flags will be seen to be as a political statements because of the current conflict. So we have to want and see if Ajax and Spurs will be fined if they use Israeli flags. It's difficult to call with Ajax and Spurs but Rangers and Linfield have displayed Israeli flags at European games in the past which is a political statement.

All four, including the Zombies and their baby cousin have had Israeli flags on show this season, albeit at least one of them aren't going to play in a UEFA-designated competition for a while?

[GypsyBlackCat]

Except that the CAS decided this and Legia even admitted they were in the wrong eventually...



All four, including the Zombies and their baby cousin have had Israeli flags on show this season, albeit at least one of them aren't going to play in a UEFA-designated competition for a while?

Well Ajax haven't played in Europe yet and I think I covered Spurs. I haven't seen any of Linfield's European games this season so I'll take your word for it.

[bennocelt]

What else can Dundalk do though? It's a no-win for them; they're seen as either silencing their supporters' voices on the day of the game if they fulfill their obligation as requested by the UEFA delegate or they're seen as blaming the supporters for pointing out that it was these individuals' actions that got the club fined. The only other option is to refuse to recognise UEFA's authority and opt out of UEFA competition.

True, but it seems from previous fines they willfully accept them (Unless I am wrong). And if they accept this fine then why are they even bothering appealing it?

[GypsyBlackCat]

Well it looks like this whole saga has taken some kind effect in Israel and Palestine. A long-term ceasefire has being announced and Israel will ease the Gaza blockcade. They mustn't have thought the fine was a bit too much for Dundalk to pay?!

[White Horse]

Well it looks like this whole saga has taken some kind effect in Israel and Palestine. A long-term ceasefire has being announced and Israel will ease the Gaza blockcade. They mustn't have thought the fine was a bit too much for Dundalk to pay?!

Apparently, the proposed ceasefire is contingent on an agreement between the SSA and UEFA.

[Charlie Darwin]

Does this mean SSA will get their apology from UEFA now?