Dundalk Fined For Palestine Flag at Euro Game

[Charlie Darwin]

The flag waving of Palestinian flags was interpreted as a political message and inappropriate to the game.
Well that's what I think is the problem, UEFA giving themselves the power to interpret the intent behind the display of a national flag. It's not like a swastika or a celtic cross where it's inadmissible in any instance, this is the flag of a country, and a FIFA member at that.

[Charlie Darwin]

That was just cheeky!!

So on the basis of ethnicity the tricolour at Celtic games could be overlooked even if it is provocative. Should have told the delegate that we have a couple of palestinian fans - i doubt he would have asked to meet them and is about as legit as the rangers bluff
I was thinking that's what the SSA should do. Just track down a couple of Palestinians, convert them to the Dundalk cause, and then whether they show up at the match or not, you can say you're paying tribute to a section of the club's support.

[DannyInvincible]

I'd say the fact dundalks stewards actually took down the flags initially may go in their favour on appeal but I'd still imagine a heavy heavy fine at the end of it all

I can't see how that would make a difference. The display of the flags, or the transmission of the message deemed unfit, in other words, was not prevented by the club.


What is especially galling is that the club tried so hard to prevent these flags been flown at the game. This following is a statement by the so called Shed Side Army at the time:

Shedside supporters club are appalled and disgusted at the actions of Dundalk FC officials at the recent Europa league qualifier game on Thursday the 17th of July where Dundalk FC officials tore down Palestinian flags which Shedside supporters club had erected behind the goals (town end).

Shedside supporters club had erected these flags as a show of solidarity with the people of Palestine purely on the basis of humanitarian grounds. The erection of the flags was not a political statement.

There was four flags, one for each of the young children that was coldly murdered on a beach in Gaza in recent days. Many powerful political leaders and nations from around the world have condemned these actions. We the Shedside supporters club wanted to show the families of these four young children and the people of Palestine and Gaza that they are in our hearts, thoughts and prayers. We see no wrong in that.

We heavily condemn the actions of the Dundalk FC officials and call for an immediate statement and apology from Dundalk FC regarding this issue. If the actions of the officials where on the orders from the UEFA official present at the game then we also condemn them and call for and immediate statement and apology.

No one should be silenced or told not to show their support for people who are been coldly murdered. We most certainly will not be silenced!!

The Shedside supporters club would appreciate it if you could share this statement and show us and the people of Palestine our's and your support.

That's a comically stupid "official" statement reeking of buffoonish posturing, mock outrage and plenty of ego. The SSA clearly have little grasp or appreciation of the regulations concerned or of how said regulations might apply to the club they purport to support. Demanding an immediate statement and apology from their hosts - the club - and then, even more embarrassingly, from UEFA?! That actually made me laugh out loud. What planet are they on? Nobody was silencing their right to free speech per se; if they wanted to protest against the bombardment and occupation of Gaza or demonstrate solidarity with the Palestinian people, there was plenty of public space upon which they could have done that outside of Oriel Park and off the property of the football club.

They could even have taken selfies and videos of their flag-waving exploits and posted them off to Gaza first-class just so those many long-suffering Gazans who had been watching the match live and who had, in vain, been looking out for absent Palestine flags would definitely still have known they were in the hearts, thoughts and prayers of those renowned humanitarian heroes, the SSA... The SSA were paying guests of Dundalk FC; if you're a visitor on someone's property, you adhere to the rules and expectations of the house.

And, sweet Jesus, if you're going to make a pretty stupid public statement, at least don't be completely stupid about it; it's "there were four" and not "there was four", "are being coldly murdered" and not "are been coldly murdered", and there should never be an apostrophe in "ours" or a 'h' in "were"! Sorry, but that sort of careless disregard just grates with me in a supposedly-serious public statement. :o


Wouldn't surprise me if this case gets quite a lot of media attention, could even work in dundalks favour

How so? Dundalk tried to prevent the display of the flags as instructed by the UEFA delegate and in accordance with the governing regulations.


And what about the poppy on the jersey thing with England.
Would I be stopped from entering the ground if I had a Palestinian badge on?

I think it would literally fall foul of the rule. I imagine you'd only be stopped, however, if a Dundalk steward, having spotted it, thought it was overt enough to be perceived as transmitting an inappropriate message or if the UEFA delegate noticed it and recommended its removal to the club.

Interestingly, Aberystwyth had poppies on their jerseys when the played Derry. Will I report them or will you? :p


I think the rule around political messages is a progressive one.

Article 16 - Order and security at UEFA competition matches
(e) 'the use of gestures, words, objects or any other means to transmit any message that is not fit for a sports event, particularly messages that are of apolitical, ideological, religious, offensive or provocative nature;'

But this was anything but apolitical! :p


If you want all right wing, racist, fascist symbols/flags be banned from football grounds then Uefa rightfully has to ban all expressions that do not fit at a sporting event.
Uefa can't have a bias. Also the fine can't be just porportional depending on sympathies with one wing or another.
Robbie Fowler got fined for his show of support at one game for the Liverpool dockers.

...

Overall, it's a rational price to pay in order to rid football grounds of expressions of hate and racism.

I'd say the rule is more self-interested than progressive; UEFA seek to promote as neutral and apolitical an image and governing arena as possible, lest potentially-provocative imagery were to deter sponsors and investment. Offend nobody; be everyone's friend; that's the mantra. As for my own opinion of the rule, it's a terribly numbing and sanitising one that neuters football crowds and disarms them of their human sentiments, character, qualities and emotions. What are football teams really if not channels through which the human identities of their fans can be expressed? Since when did a football match have to be such a blandly cordial affair? What is and isn't objectively fit for a sporting event anyway? In an ideal world, waving Palestine flags at a Europa League qualifier would be no problem, even if orchestrated by clueless, ignorant idiots with little knowledge of the Middle Eastern conflict. I say, let fans display what they want and if something falls foul of the law of the land, then the law of the land can deal with it. It's a regressive UEFA law, that is; it stunts and chokes expression within stadia to a degree that not even the law of the land does. Need UEFA really make it their business? Is that practical?

[outspoken]

Danny - I think the fact the club tried to remove the flags will go in their favour for a smaller fine but as you said they failed to remove them and the club will face sanctions over that as for the media comment with the Palestine case being such a strongly supported one here you'd imagine a small Irish club showing their support for Gaza only to be punished would grab quite a lot of Media attention which in turn may put UEFA under pressure as unlikely as it is.

[dundalkfc10]

The flag waving of Palestinian flags was interpreted as a political message and inappropriate to the game.
There is no hard and fast, rigid interpretation of the statute and Uefa have their own standards of reasonable proof.
If this was a regular enough event at a Dundalk game, Dundalk fans with Palestine ethnicity who are also promoting their ethnicity, then that would be grounds for an explanation to the Uefa observer or if it went further - solid grounds for an appeal.
Offhand I can think of old Rangers fc who successfully appealed a Uefa fine, their fans getting with giving fascist salutes to Israeli fans, something to do with the old tradition of the red hand of ulster defence, pulled out of nowhere.

It is, Their is a flag that has been at games in Oriel and away games for years that has a Palestine flag on it

https://www.google.ie/search?q=dundalk+celtic+flag&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=O7D5U67oIsXG7Ab5oICQDw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=709#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=lALt5dKSknI4BM%253A%3BHXS_fMusn1f38M%3Bhttp% 253A%252F%252Fimg5.imageshack.us%252Fimg5%252F4347 %252F29326245.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.orielwe b.com%252Fdundalktalk%252Fviewtopic.php%253Ff%253D 1%2526t%253D6248%2526start%253D15%3B309%3B154

[White Horse]

It is, Their is a flag that has been at games in Oriel and away games for years that has a Palestine flag on it

https://www.google.ie/search?q=dundalk+celtic+flag&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=O7D5U67oIsXG7Ab5oICQDw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=709#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=lALt5dKSknI4BM%253A%3BHXS_fMusn1f38M%3Bhttp% 253A%252F%252Fimg5.imageshack.us%252Fimg5%252F4347 %252F29326245.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.orielwe b.com%252Fdundalktalk%252Fviewtopic.php%253Ff%253D 1%2526t%253D6248%2526start%253D15%3B309%3B154

Was there a controversy over this flag a few years ago?

[dundalkfc10]

Was there a controversy over this flag a few years ago?

Not too my knowledge mate. Il ask around in the pub later but Cant think of anything

[White Horse]

Not too my knowledge mate. Il ask around in the pub later but Cant think of anything

I found the story. It was from a few years ago:

FAI brand Palestinian flag as "racist"
by Keith Wallace
Wed, Apr 08 2009
Dundalk FC have been reported and will face a fine over the display of a Palestinian flag by their supporters during last weekend's 3-1 win at Sligo Rovers, after the FAI branded the flag as "racist". However, last night, the Louth club challenged the FAI, stating they are treating the matter "very seriously" and "considering making an official complaint".

Offending banner
"Our fans were very well behaved and did themselves proud [in Sligo]," club secretary Kevin Holland wrote in the Dundalk FC Magazine for the visit of Shamrock Rovers to Oriel Park on Tuesday night. "But during the game the FAI match delegate summoned our Chairman and informed him that he would be reporting Dundalk FC for the display of a racist banner. What was the offending banner? The Dundalk flag that we have seen in Oriel Park for many, many years that features a Palestinian flag. Now, I do not profess to be an expert in these matters - but how can a flag that features an internationally recognised flag be deemed as racist?

Official complaint
"The Palestinian flag is flying outside the United Nations building in New York," he added. "Also, members of the Gardai were standing in front of the flag during the game and didn't have any problem with it. This accusation may be ridiculous but I am treating it very seriously. The Board of Dundalk will be considering making an official complaint against the FAI over this incident. Darren Mansaram was the victim of racist abuse against Drogheda and there was also some racist abuse chanted his way by Sligo fans near where I was sitting in Sligo. To equate a flag to these incidents is disgusting and downright offensive."

[disgruntled]

One of the concerns I have is the inconsistency of these fines.
Dundalk being fined €20000 for displaying the flag of a FIFA member state Palestine while Bayern Munich were fined only €10000 for their fans displaying the flag of Kosovo who are not FIFA members.

[Nesta99]

There's a bit of a appeals case here already - precedence of palestinian flag in Oriel many years before the Split match. The size of the fine given to Bayern Munich considereing the difference in the exposure that a political statement would get compared to Dundalk. Now all we need to do is get that Palestinian Dundalk FC Supporters club going ...... what fine! It will be interesting to see what proportion the flag incident makes up of the total fine.

[bennocelt]

Still nothing official on their site
http://www.uefa.org/disciplinary/index.html

[DannyInvincible]

Danny - I think the fact the club tried to remove the flags will go in their favour for a smaller fine but as you said they failed to remove them and the club will face sanctions over that as for the media comment with the Palestine case being such a strongly supported one here you'd imagine a small Irish club showing their support for Gaza only to be punished would grab quite a lot of Media attention which in turn may put UEFA under pressure as unlikely as it is.

Is that how the appeals process actually works though or are you just speculating? I'm not sure how it works myself, so I can't say with certainty that UEFA will look upon the stewards' fruitless attempt to remove the flags with favour or as a mitigating circumstance, if you will. Will they definitely consider it? All I know is that as far as the relevant regulation is concerned, Dundalk still failed in their ultimate responsibility of preventing the display of the flags inside Oriel Park, whether they made efforts to remove them or not. If the club can somehow prove the flags' display was appropriate to the match, they'll have a case, but that's a different matter.

The club didn't show their support for Gaza though (not that I'm assuming it's indicative of any personal positions held with regard to the conflict by those who run the club); they tried to prevent the display of the flags of a group of supporters upon the recommendation of the UEFA delegate and in accordance with the regulations. I don't see how UEFA will feel pressured by it; they've been more than happy to fine clubs/players for displays or gestures that would be widely construed as being in support of good causes before, even when happy to admit the punishments might "seem strange and even unfair": http://libcom.org/library/robbie-fowler-fined-supporting-liverpool-dockers


One of the concerns I have is the inconsistency of these fines.
Dundalk being fined €20000 for displaying the flag of a FIFA member state Palestine while Bayern Munich were fined only €10000 for their fans displaying the flag of Kosovo who are not FIFA members.

Aye, but weren't the Bayern fans sitting down that time? :p

[osarusan]

Don't see how the flag-wavers would be legally liable, to be honest. The flag-wavers, although inconsiderate of their club's obligations, weren't breaking any law, to the best of my knowledge. Unless they were in breach of some specific terms of entry... It was Dundalk's sole responsibility under UEFA's rules to ensure that no such display occurred inside the stadium though. The club failed to ensure that.

Yeah, I imagined that the individuals in question would only be liable if there was a criminal act of some kind. Still, it would be nice to think that there is some fine print regarding ticket purchase or steward warning that gives Dundalk the right to chase them for the money.

Also, do Dundalk fans (or anybody else) know what, if anything, will happen to the members of this group? Are they going to be banned?

[Mr_Parker]

Still nothing official on their site
http://www.uefa.org/disciplinary/index.html

There are numerous disciplinary cases & fines that never appear on their website.

[DannyInvincible]

Yeah, I imagined that the individuals in question would only be liable if there was a criminal act of some kind. Still, it would be nice to think that there is some fine print regarding ticket purchase or steward warning that gives Dundalk the right to chase them for the money.

It's an interesting one and I know EG mentioned it too. Are there any precedents or examples in other fields where attendees also have obligations or duties of care by virtue of their attendance at a paid ticket event?

It's not directly relevant, but I did find it interesting; a few days ago, I was seeking clarification on the jurisdiction or competence of the Court of Arbitration for Sport and was reading a case involving UEFA and Fenerbahçe where UEFA had punished the appellant with a fine and competition ban on the basis of their alleged supporters having disrupted a game with parachute fireworks: http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/7234/5048/0/Award20313920FINAL.pdf


On 21 February 2013, during an UEFA Europa League match played behind closed doors between the Club and FC Bate Borisov, several fireworks were launched, allegedly by supporters of the Club, from outside the stadium. Several of these items landed inside the stadium, one of them causing a small fire, another landed near the Club’s substitutes’ bench and a third one landed on the field of play, causing the game to be interrupted for about one minute.

I skimmed through it fairly quickly, but what I thought was unusual was that the fireworks had actually come from outside the stadium and had been fired in over the stands, yet UEFA insisted that those who fired the fireworks were to be deemed supporters for whose actions the club were to be held responsible. This was argued because, despite said individuals being opposed to the club's current president, the club had previously admitted that the individuals concerned were known regular attendees of Fenerbahçe matches. It was also alleged that they had been "near the stadium" during the match being played behind closed doors, which implied a direct connection. Fenerbahçe argued that UEFA could not prove the individuals concerned were supporters and further insisted that they could not be held responsible for the "perpetrators [who] did not conduct their actions in the match venue or around the stadium or in its vicinity". UEFA deemed it necessary to point out that "the term 'at a match' used in the UEFA Disciplinary Regulations implies any incident that takes place during a match, irrespective of where the misconduct originated, provided that the incident occurs in the course of the match or is linked to the match in question, the criteria in this respect applying to before, during and after the match".

The club's argument on this matter was further summarised as follows:


"More specifically, the Club finds that the violations did not took place 'at the match' as provided for in Article 6(1) UEFA DR or 'around the stadium' as provided for in Article 6(2) UEFA DR. Pursuant to the general legal principle of nulla poena sine lege no disciplinary measures may be imposed on the Club for the unforeseeable actions of the perpetrators as the Club bears no default, also because the dense settlement structure around the match venue takes it impossible to control the area and to prevent actions of this kind."

Regardless, CAS rejected their appeal and, in deeming UEFA's punishment proportionate, let the competition ban and fine stand.

The following paragraphs (indeed, containing some elements possibly relevant to the thread at hand) explain the conclusion of CAS:


"81. For the avoidance of doubt, the Panel reiterates that it is of no avail to the Club that the actions of the perpetrators might have been unforeseeable, that the area around the stadium might have been hard to control due to its location and that the parachute flares were allegedly launched from a distance of 800m from the stadium. As set out supra, the fact that the Club made efforts to prevent any disturbances, such as providing for the presence of 796 security personnel (600 mobile striking force personnel and 196 permanent staff) inside and around the stadium and the security measures taken at the entrance doors of the stadium and its surroundings, are of no avail to the Club as these are only circumstances that can possibly be taken into account in respect of the proportionality of the sanction, but are not circumstances that can serve as a ground for excuse or exculpation of the Club, as the strict liability rule
as provided for by Article 6(1) of the UEFA DR applies.

82. Consequently, the Panel finds that the perpetrators are supporters of the Club and that the Club is directly responsible for the misbehaviour of its supporters based on Article 6(1) of the UEFA DR. The Club however challenges the application of the strict liability principle enshrined in Article 6 of the UEFA DR. Therefore, the Panel will subsequently assess the validity of this principle before determining whether the Club is liable for the behaviour of its supporters and should be sanctioned accordingly."

This also might be illuminating with regard to a club's responsibility:


"UEFA member associations and football clubs are responsible, even if they are not at fault, for the improper conduct of their supporters, including racist acts, which expressly breach the Disciplinary Regulations. Clubs are automatically held responsible once such an act has been established. The object of this rule is very clearly to ensure that clubs that host football matches shoulder the responsibility for their supporters’ conduct, which must comply with UEFA’s objectives. It should be noted that UEFA has no direct disciplinary authority over a club’s supporters, but only over European football associations and clubs. The latter are responsible for conforming to the standards and spirit of the UEFA regulations. If clubs were able to extricate themselves from any responsibility by claiming that they had taken all measures they could reasonably be expected to take to prevent any breach of the UEFA rules, and if supporters still manage to commit such an act, there would be no way of penalising that behaviour, even though it constituted a fault in itself. UEFA’s rules of conduct would therefore be nothing more than vague obligations, since they would be devoid of any sanctions. By penalising a club for the behaviour of its supporters, it is in fact the latter who are targeted and who, as supporters, will be liable to pay the penalty imposed on their club. This is the only way in which UEFA has any chance of achieving its objectives. Without such an indirect sanction, UEFA would be literally powerless to deal with supporters’ misconduct if a club refused to take responsibility for such behaviour."

It appears CAS would be prepared to acknowledge a club having taken measures to prevent the occurrence of a detrimental incident as a mitigating circumstance, so perhaps UEFA's disciplinary body would too upon an appeal to them:


"126. The Panel finds that the only mitigating circumstances that can be taken into account are that the Club took certain security measures and arranged the presence of approximately 800 security staff inside and outside the stadium and that the Club immediately took action against the perpetrators in co-operation with the relevant authorities and penalized them with a stadium ban. The other alleged mitigating circumstances are in fact aggravating, not relevant or contrary to the facts as established by the Panel."

In this case though, CAS found that the other aggravating circumstances had the broad effect of negating the aforementioned extenuating ones.

[Nesta99]

You are a nerd Danny:p

Do club colours constitute as a valid reason to fly a particular flag?

[DannyInvincible]

Ha, they might do, but you'd need to make sure UEFA's Disciplinary Committee don't hear wind of the SSA's public statement.

Have yous ever had a bit of green on your jerseys, by the way?

[Nesta99]

Green 3rd kit few years back but no. Then neither was yellow and blue...

[Charlie Darwin]

Green 3rd kit few years back but no. Then neither was yellow and blue...
Was the yellow away strip brought in because of bananas?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Dundalk should refuse to pay, end of.

[Dunny]

Was the yellow away strip brought in because of bananas?
Complete coincidence.

[jinxy lilywhite]

I think the fine gets deducted from the total prize money received so we don't have a choice in the matter.
The club should appeal this to UEFA and then to the CAS. In the interim they should ban the flag bearers for life and the ringleaders.

This season alone fines of around 22k incl this one and last season also your probably talking about close to 30k worth of fines that can be attributed to the SSA.

[Charlie Darwin]

How much would an appeal to UEFA and the CAS cost?

[dundalkfc10]

How much would an appeal to UEFA and the CAS cost?

Have read that the appeals are not very costly at all so all clubs will have a chance to appeal if they want.

Be intresting too see when the break down of the €18000 comes from

Think we have seen the end of the Petrol FAI man in Oriel finally Thank God, so some good has come out of it

[White Horse]

Think we have seen the end of the Petrol FAI man in Oriel finally Thank God, so some good has come out of it

The early season boycott, the stupidity of defying UEFA's Palestinaian flag ban, and the silent protest at the Galway match. Constant disruption to a club and a team that is going places.

Some individuals don't know the meaning of the word "supporter".

[NeverFeltBetter]

How badly are all these fines going to affect Dundalk going into next season?

[GypsyBlackCat]

Some people just can't seem to grasp the problem.

UEFA are very strict on political, religious and race issues at their games. The SSA were clearly making a political statement. They were asked to remove the flags and refused and costing their club big time. Dundalk FC have no links with Palestine. That's the difference with Ajax and Spurs. They both have links with Judism (not a religious link). Celtic have links with Ireland. Celtic have been fined by UEFA over political statements several times. UEFA even tried to block England from wearing the Poppy during international matches. IIRC UEFA asked Glentoran to remove the Jesus advestising board from the Oval. You can't even bring a John 3:16 sign into a stadium anymore. Crazy as it is but them the rules!

Anyway, politics and sport should never mix. Would you bring a Dundalk flag to a Free Gaza rally? No, because it has no place there. Then why bring a Palestinian flag to a Dundalk match in protest to something that has nothing to do with the club or football? What about all the other conflicts around the world?

[White Horse]

How badly are all these fines going to affect Dundalk going into next season?

My understanding is that planning the budget for next season is at an advanced stage. It is anticipated that any revenue from prize money and surplus revenue from the Europa League games would be invested in improving the facilities at Oriel Park. The disabled section, the away terrace, and toilet facilities being the priority. The UEFA fine will reduce the amount available for these improvements.

[CityRebel]

My understanding is that planning the budget for next season is at an advanced stage. It is anticipated that any revenue from prize money and surplus revenue from the Europa League games would be invested in improving the facilities at Oriel Park. The disabled section, the away terrace, and toilet facilities being the priority. The UEFA fine will reduce the amount available for these improvements.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b3XTj5G_SA

[ArdeeBhoy]

Some people just can't seem to grasp the problem.

UEFA are very strict on political, religious and race issues at their games. The SSA were clearly making a political statement. They were asked to remove the flags and refused and costing their club big time. Dundalk FC have no links with Palestine. That's the difference with Ajax and Spurs. They both have links with Judism (not a religious link). Celtic have links with Ireland. Celtic have been fined by UEFA over political statements several times. UEFA even tried to block England from wearing the Poppy during international matches. IIRC UEFA asked Glentoran to remove the Jesus advestising board from the Oval. You can't even bring a John 3:16 sign into a stadium anymore. Crazy as it is but them the rules!

Anyway, politics and sport should never mix. Would you bring a Dundalk flag to a Free Gaza rally? No, because it has no place there. Then why bring a Palestinian flag to a Dundalk match in protest to something that has nothing to do with the club or football? What about all the other conflicts around the world?
Except UEFA/FIFA are idiots, detached from reality. There is more to the world than their precious rules.
As for sport and politics not 'mixing', good luck with that...

[Dodge]

4
How badly are all these fines going to affect Dundalk going into next season?
Shoudln't effect them at all. They'll get €250k from their 2 euroepan games and they'll likely win the league giving them another €100k. while €18k is huge for a LOI club, Dundalk are in a position to pay it this year (I'd imagine the money will just be deducted from their UEFA payments)


Except UEFA/FIFA are idiots, detached from reality. There is more to the world than their precious rules.
As for sport and politics not 'mixing', good luck with that...

they're detached from Reality and yet you want Dundalk to not pay it. "End of."? You're a big fan of the ROI national team, do you think it's a good idea for the FAI to ignore UEFA?

Geysir has already pointed out the rule. You can point to national flags all you want, but every single person knows why that flag was being flown. The fact that the UEFA delegate instructed Dundalk to take them down, and Dundalk complied with that, shows that Dundalk acknowledge it as a political thing. They should have removed the flags completely and not allowed fans the chance to fly them at a later stage of the game. That's effectively what they've been sanctioned for; the ego of 1/2 fans that thought they could do what they liked.

The fans standing thing isn't merely for standing but for occupying an area of the ground that can't be used (behind the goal in oriel). Bit of naivety there maybe from Dundalk stewards/officials.

[ArdeeBhoy]

they're detached from Reality and yet you want Dundalk to not pay it. "End of."?
You're a big fan of the ROI national team, do you think it's a good idea for the FAI to ignore UEFA?

If only they would. And hope Palestinian flags get brought to every Ireland game, indefinitely.


Geysir has already pointed out the rule. You can point to national flags all you want, but every single person knows why that flag was being flown. The fact that the UEFA delegate instructed Dundalk to take them down, and Dundalk complied with that, shows that Dundalk acknowledge it as a political thing. They should have removed the flags completely and not allowed fans the chance to fly them at a later stage of the game. That's effectively what they've been sanctioned for; the ego of 1/2 fans that thought they could do what they liked.


Except the rule is wrong. And gross hypocrisy...by the gnomes of Zurich.

If only the same authorities clamped down with equal fervour on Israeli/Zionist emblems, who incidentally aren't even in Europe...
Or other fascist regalia displayed right across the continent.

[GypsyBlackCat]

Except UEFA/FIFA are idiots, detached from reality. There is more to the world than their precious rules.
As for sport and politics not 'mixing', good luck with that...

Well I can manage to keep the two seperated and a lot of clubs and supporters do too. It's terrible what is going on in the Middle East but what has it got to do with football? And why only Palestine? Why not bring Kurdistan flags? What is going on with the ISIS is a lot worse than what is going on in Israel/Gaza. Why not protest against things happen ing Ireland? For a lot of people football is a escape from the world around them and not everyone is bother about current affairs.

[GypsyBlackCat]

If only they would. And hope Palestinian flags get brought to every Ireland game, indefinitely.



Except the rule is wrong. And gross hypocrisy...by the gnomes of Zurich.

If only the same authorities clamped down with equal fervour on Israeli/Zionist emblems, who incidentally aren't even in Europe...
Or other fascist regalia displayed right across the continent.

I'll bring my Irish flag to Ireland games because I'm there to support the Irish national team not a political cause. What has the Palestinian flag got to do with ROI? What about any Jewish or pro-Israel fans? Can they bring their flags? What Iona Institude?

As I explained, the Star of David flags are to do with Ajax and Spurs Jewish roots, not support for Israel. A bit like the tricolour with Celtic. And UEFA have down of teams who display far-right flags and displays at matches. Russia were fined during Euro 2012 for a nationalist flag and a Croatian player was banned for saying a quote from a fascist Croatian leader.

[nigel-harps1954]

It's getting even better.


In recent weeks Dundalk FC fans (In common with many other fans throughout sport in general and the UEFA area in particular) have displayed flags of Palestine in solidarity with 4 children murdered playing football on a beach in Palestine. Palestine is a FIFA affiliated nation and the flag is the flag of a sovereign nation. In Ireland citizens have a Constitutional right of freedom of expression. This right does not vanish at a football turnstile. There are unsubstantiated reports that UEFA are seeking to victimise this small club for displaying these flags with a gigantic 18,000 euro fine. Dundalk fans involved have sought and got legal advice on this matter and a number of fans have now pledged to fight any UEFA infringement of their fundamental Constitutional right to free expression should it materialise.

Dundalk fans involved also call upon fans of other clubs to make their views on this matter known to UEFA and to defend the basic rights of fellow fans to express their rights within the bounds of the law in this way.

If football is to remain a game of the people this alleged threatened bullying of a small club by UEFA must be faced down and Dundalk fans involved pledge to do so at whatever personal cost.

SSA-Shed Side Army.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except no-one says you have to wave any flag...as for the Palestinian cause people are acknowledging decades of persecution but have no problems myself with the Kurdish or similar, flags.

And plenty of fascist regalia, especially in, but not exclusively, E.Europe. Including ironically, 'support' for Israel!!!

[GypsyBlackCat]

Except no-one says you have to wave any flag...as for the Palestinian cause people are acknowledging decades of persecution but have no problems myself with the Kurdish or similar, flags.

And plenty of fascist regalia, especially in, but not exclusively, E.Europe. Including ironically, 'support' for Israel!!!

At an UEFA organised match?

But again, what has this got to do with football?

[GypsyBlackCat]

It's getting even better.

To right. The SSA should pay the fine not Dundalk FC. ;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

At an UEFA organised match?

But again, what has this got to do with football?

The real world is bigger than any sport. Some of us live in it...

[colonelwest]

The real world is bigger than any sport. Some of us live in it...

A pity then none of them and presumably yourself gave a euro or two to the red cross appeal or protested outside the Israeli embassy there a few weeks back and got actively involved in legitimate ways to protest. Sure we'll wave a flag at a football match, that'll show them.

edit, knowing Maxi he probably expects an invitation to chair the Israel/ Palestine peace talks, after that he can move on to Syria and Iraq, possibly the Ukraine then as well if he has the time in his hectic schedule.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except I have chief. Never make assumptions...though protest at any sporting event is legitimate.
:rolleyes:

[colonelwest]

Except I have chief. Never make assumptions...though protest at any sporting event is legitimate.
:rolleyes:

Fair play to you then so, I was there myself, those in question sure as hell weren't and haven't. But sure waving a flag at a match under the jurisdiction of an apolitical organisation that outright states in its rules that football is not to be politicised and have a history of fining/ banning clubs and countries for doing that exact thing, makes all the difference doesn't it?

[ArdeeBhoy]

In this case, yes. Look at how it's made the news and UEFA look like the shower of ***** we all knew they always were.

[GypsyBlackCat]

The real world is bigger than any sport. Some of us live in it...

Ok. I agree. But what does it have to do with football? Why bring politics into football? What has Palestine got to do with Dundalk FC? If it was against an Israeli team I'd understand.

UEFA aren't just picking on Dundalk. Israeli and Ukranian clubs are banned from playing at home. Maribor, Besiktas, Steaua Bucharest and Debrecen have all been fined for the same thing.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Why not? The real world is bigger than any sport.

And just because UEFA have fined other clubs, doesn't make it right either. When they clamp down on fascist regalia will take them more seriously. Until then, they can GTF.

[wonder88]

So the opinion now seems to be that those in Dundalk, Sligo and Derry who expressed their horror of the slaughter of children by Israel in Gazza was down to ego and poor education. Maybe, but I am old enough to remember when South Africa was an apartheid state and the most effective action in Ireland at the time was taken by shop girls who worked in Dunnes. The ANC was a terrorist organisation and many well educated people at the time did not agree with a boycott and saw the situation as more complicated than a simple struggle for human rights for the native black people. Just like the actions of Israel many at the time saw some justification for apartheid.
Again have a look at the Norris piece on youtube.
Agree with dodge the 18k fine is not a big deal for Dundalk, it is only two and half weeks wages for the FAI CEO, but I still hope they appeal and maybe cause some discomfort to those who want to turn a blind eye to the plight of the people in Gazza.

[GypsyBlackCat]

So the opinion now seems to be that those in Dundalk, Sligo and Derry who expressed their horror of the slaughter of children by Israel in Gazza was down to ego and poor education. Maybe, but I am old enough to remember when South Africa was an apartheid state and the most effective action in Ireland at the time was taken by shop girls who worked in Dunnes. The ANC was a terrorist organisation and many well educated people at the time did not agree with a boycott and saw the situation as more complicated than a simple struggle for human rights for the native black people. Just like the actions of Israel many at the time saw some justification for apartheid.
Again have a look at the Norris piece on youtube.
Agree with dodge the 18k fine is not a big deal for Dundalk, it is only two and half weeks wages for the FAI CEO, but I still hope they appeal and maybe cause some discomfort to those who want to turn a blind eye to the plight of the people in Gazza.

No one is turning a blind eye to Gaza. There's a time and place for protests. Thousands marched all over Europe in support of Gaza. But UEFA do think a football stadium is the right place for politicial protest.

[GypsyBlackCat]

Why not? The real world is bigger than any sport.

And just because UEFA have fined other clubs, doesn't make it right either. When they clamp down on fascist regalia will take them more seriously. Until then, they can GTF.

UEFA have clamped down on fascist regalia. Clubs know before the competitions start that there is a code of conduct that they have to follow.

[Mr A]

Agree with dodge the 18k fine is not a big deal for Dundalk, it is only two and half weeks wages for the FAI CEO, but I still hope they appeal and maybe cause some discomfort to those who want to turn a blind eye to the plight of the people in Gazza.

This is one of my all time favourite typos.

No wonder he's looking rough if he has people living in him.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03014/Gas_3014834b.jpg

[ArdeeBhoy]

UEFA have clamped down on fascist regalia. Clubs know before the competitions start that there is a code of conduct that they have to follow.
They haven't, they really haven't.

http://www.farenet.org/news/
for a small taster.