Poland V Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 19th November 2013 - Friendly - Poznań

[Stuttgart88]

No? I thought he spelt it unusually. My error.

[paul_oshea]

I think the point is being missed how important the keepers agility and ability to makes saves is. It doesn't matter who you have outfield, if your keeper can't make the required saves to keep you in the game. It's not about what he did in Sweden, its about what he didn't do against Sweden at home. A keepers job is all about fractions, look at England, Hart makes great saves and everyone is happy, he makes 1 or 2 mistakes or doesn't makes saves that he should and he is rightfully castigated and dropped. We could be doing really well in a tight game, and the oppossition have identified his lack of ability at getting down low and his reactions, against decent opposition they will be aware, and in a better position to execute and expose the flaw. It has nothing to do with "oh well im expecting something to happen" as SvD pointed out, its based on past experiences of what I have seen of Forde.

I also thought he could have done better for the England goal in wembley actually.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, but he wasn't helped by having a mediocre defence in front of him.
If you have a good/great defence you can often get away with a mediocre keeper. Unfortunately, we have a largely mediocre back 5, whoever plays.

[tetsujin1979]

No? I thought he spelt it unusually. My error.
oddly enough, it's his birthday today!
He's 32

[SwanVsDalton]

Offence taken! :) I don't think you're getting me. I'm going to make one final attempt and leave it at that. I really like Forde and think he has performed superbly for us since his introduction, which was a baptism of fire in a team devoid of any confidence and up against it in most games. I also think it's a wonderful story, making his debut at 31 and he really appears to be loving every minute of it. He clearly has a really good temperament for the big occasion as well which is admirable for a guy of so little big game experience, relatively speaking.

"A mistake waiting to happen".... I can only speak for myself but I mean this in relation to his poor kicking only. It's not a mistake waiting to happen, it's a mistake that happens a couple of times per game depending on how often the ball is passed back to him. It's a mistake waiting to be punished. It also gives the opposition some impetus as it makes us appear nervous and shaky. The majority on here seem to think that it's a flaw that can be overlooked because it either hasn't really been punished yet or the rest of his game makes up for it. I would probably agree if we didn't have another goalkeeper of at least similar ability who doesn't possess this flaw. It wouldn't be as big an issue if we were a team capable of retaining possession and our outfield players didn't use their goalkeeper as an outlet so often, but at the moment they do.

When I mentioned the goals conceded to Greece and Sweden, I wasn't having a go. Neither were criminal. I was only making the point that if we are to overlook his ball to feet inadequacies, the rest of his game should be substantially better than Westwood's. On what I have seen, I don't think it is.

Good explanation but it's pretty much how I read you (even if I exaggerated in the description :))

I just don't see it that way, because I think Forde brings more to the table than you do. He eclipses Westwood in his vocal assertiveness and calmness aided to a commanding control of his area and good shot stopping.

I don't think the kicking flaw should be overlooked, I just hope that if the management deign to make him first choice he a) works on it and b) the team take that into consideration when using him as an outlet. Like I mentioned playing it out short - which Forde is perfectly capable of - should be a used when facing lesser opposition and/or at home and would go some way to mitigating the problem.

I wouldn't have a major problem if the management plumped for Westwood off the back of great Prem form, I'm just not sure as yet.


I also thought he could have done better for the England goal in wembley actually.

Fair enough on your larger point but this is what I mean by forensic. You could make a case for a keeper doing better for a lot of goals, when taken in isolation. Keep this up in a few pages Forde could've done better for every goal! As could Westwood if we wanted to get down to it. But I'm happy to say both have largely not been at fault for goals conceded, albeit Forde could've done better on occasion mitigated by largely strong performances.

This lack of goalie trust is a partly a result of what happens when a truly great custodian goes away like Given. Westwood and Forde need to earn unconditional trust like those before. As has been said, it's a good position to be in and the competition will keep both strong in a way Given failed to be in latter years.

Both have some way to go - but what I really liked about Forde that I think he took his chance. He was vocal. Commanding. Assertive. He wasn't just solid, he was positive. He influenced games. Westwood did pretty much nothing wrong - but he didn't do as much actively right either. His auditions were more passive. If he has those commanding qualities Forde has displayed, fine - but I want to see them in a green shirt. Get out there and take the jersey back.

[DeLorean]

Both have some way to go

Big time. Westwood's immediate priority will be reclaiming his Sunderland spot first anyway. Probably not a good thing that Mannone has only conceded once in two and a half games since taking over, which included two victories and a clean sheet against Manchester City.

[geysir]

It will be interesting to see if Westwood regains his starting place on the Sunderland team this weekend.

[Drumcondra 69er]

It will be interesting to see if Westwood regains his starting place on the Sunderland team this weekend.

Apparently not, Mannone there on merit at the moment.

[SkStu]

I really despair sometimes at the nature of some debates on here. People just want to argue to the most micro level possible in the knowledge that you can always be considered right at a micro level no matter what side of the debate you are on. Forde and Westwood are good keepers and they will both do a good job if called upon. A flaw is only a flaw if it is comprised of repeated and similar mistakes - see Fordes distribution. A mistake is not a flaw, it's a mistake. Forde and Westwood have both made mistakes in games. So did Given. It's only when they are similar and become repeated that the issue becomes a flaw (Joe Harts judgement). Hart wasn't dropped for making one or two mistakes - he was dropped for making repeated mistakes of a similar nature which displayed a flaw that had developed in his game and was proving costly to City.

To blame Forde for a mistake leading to anything other than one goal since he started with us is ridiculous. Even if we were to acknowledge a second mistake, it would still be a good return for him. He does however need to work on his flaw - his kicking. For the reason that DeLorean identified in #149.

On who should be our #1 - they are both good keepers with different strengths and weaknesses. They will both do a fine job for us. Therefore possession is 9-10ths of the law and Forde should retain it for now in my humble opinion.

[DeLorean]

I'll leave that slide as most of it was aimed at Paul I'm sure :)

As for the possession being 9/10ths, I'm not sure that is the case, or that it should be the case. For a start, Forde was Trap's number one, not O'Neill's. Secondly, Westwood only lost the position in the first place due to a lack of first team football, something we hope he is now getting. Assuming he is now getting it, it's at a higher level to Forde (though I'm not sure it counts for as much with goalkeepers). Thirdly, Forde is about to turn 34 and Westwood has just turned 29. Granted age isn't a major issue with goalkeepers but Forde will be 36 (and a half!!) when the Euros come around.

We'll have a better idea where Westwood stands when we see Sunderland's line-up tomorrow I guess.

[geysir]

Drums 69, our new oracle after a coup de Paul, has already spoken on Westwood's continued demoted status this weekend.
A departure from the previous oracle that would have hedged so many bets, all outcomes would have been covered.

[DeLorean]

He's probably right. I had thought that Westwood was still injured for that City game but apparently not. (http://www.sunderlandecho.com/sport/sunderland-afc/poyet-s-toughest-call-pays-off-as-mannone-s-keeps-clean-sheet-for-sunderland-against-manchester-city-1-6234091)

We'll just have to pray to the good Lord that young Mannone has a horror show.

[geysir]

That sounds more like voodoo, not prayer.
Our goalkeeping situation isn't that desperate.

[DeLorean]

I tried voodoo on Mignolet so going for the aul prayer this time.

[Crosby87]

Our Norwegian keeper, Sean McDermott, will come to the rescue soon.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Forde has been linked this week as replacement for Forster when he eventually leaves Celtic, FFS.

[Junior]

They beat the first man ok, and the second, and the third and the fourth....he obviously has tried to overcompensate on occasions in the Polish game.

A number of overhit crosses? Can't say I noticed that to be honest perhaps you were basing your opinion not on what you saw but what you have previously thought.


I find him a very frustrating player who can give the ball away very easily at times. On the plus side, there is nearly always an air of expectation when he is on the ball and he can make things happen but his end product often does not live up to that expectation. I just have a feeling of unfulfilled potential whenever I see him play. I remember reading rave reviews about him when he first came on the scene: the new Maradona etc. That's not his fault that people were saying that about him and of course Celtic fans would hear no wrong about him (whatever happened to McGeady10 ?)but I just don't think he never became the finished article.

You never sat in Celtic Park when he played there then! The Celtic support were completely divided on McGeady, plenty of goons would whinge and moan about 'twinkle toes' and 'one trick pony'. They miss him now though and I'd imagine most (not all) would have him back in a heartbeat. We got good money for him and it was the right time to sell but the likes of James Forrest have never got near the levels McGeady got to imo.


Well worth a place in the squad and probably also the side but not above criticism. Absolutely not above criticism, I agree, as is the case for all our players. He is frustrating and certainly needs to up his ratio of good final balls and goals. However, he is still our best provider of goals (most assists), still our best outlet pass when we are under the cosh (which is often), still the player most likely to get the fans out of their seats with some individual skill. He's still a first 11 player and the likes of McLean certainly need to show much more if they are to challenge him for that spot - imo of course.

[zero]

mcgeady can be frustrating but i do remember thinking the same about duff for a good part of his ireland career - crossing/finishing not quite what it could be.

it was only in his last few years (and first season ) that i really appreciated him.

[paul_oshea]

I really despair sometimes at the nature of some debates on here. People just want to argue to the most micro level possible in the knowledge that you can always be considered right at a micro level no matter what side of the debate you are on. Forde and Westwood are good keepers and they will both do a good job if called upon. A flaw is only a flaw if it is comprised of repeated and similar mistakes - see Fordes distribution. A mistake is not a flaw, it's a mistake. Forde and Westwood have both made mistakes in games. So did Given. It's only when they are similar and become repeated that the issue becomes a flaw (Joe Harts judgement). Hart wasn't dropped for making one or two mistakes - he was dropped for making repeated mistakes of a similar nature which displayed a flaw that had developed in his game and was proving costly to City.

To blame Forde for a mistake leading to anything other than one goal since he started with us is ridiculous. Even if we were to acknowledge a second mistake, it would still be a good return for him. He does however need to work on his flaw - his kicking. For the reason that DeLorean identified in #149.

On who should be our #1 - they are both good keepers with different strengths and weaknesses. They will both do a fine job for us. Therefore possession is 9-10ths of the law and Forde should retain it for now in my humble opinion.

Ill leave that aside, because I don't go into micrcoscopic analysis, and assume you meant SvD and DeLorean :D Funnily enough I generally don't like big stupid quoted posts that do the same so i take your point.

I think it was SvD who introduced the term microscopic analysis anyway, I dont consider that microscopic analysis.

A GKs essential skills are - not limited to - (first two talking about shot stopping ability, 3rd one more than just shot stopping )agility, speed, positional/spatial awareness, commanding in the air and accuracy from kickouts/passing. If a keeper is lacking basic agility to get down quick and also cover off angles(positional awareness) he is lacking 2 out of 5 essential skills. I think Forde is lacking in 2 of those, not completely inept. It's nothing to do with told you so, but there is a reason why he is 33 at Milwall, and by sounds of it he isn't getting rave reviews there either. There was an example yesterday in the Arsenal game around 70 mins where the keeper got down really quick and pushed a strong hand to keep the ball out of the bottom corner. It was a good save, but it was one you would expect a good keeper to make, I'm pretty sure Forde wouldn't have the ability to get down and keep that kinda shot out. I have given 3 examples where i think he should have done better and more than likely saved us a goal. Its nothing to do with microscopic analysis or told you so. I've always said on here I love being wrong when it comes to predictions about the IRish team or players.

Sometimes I think the posters on here live in some impermeable bubble around Team Ireland. :D Anyone i've spoken to at games or in general offline have the same concerns about Forde.

[geysir]

Ill leave that aside, because I don't go into micrcoscopic analysis, and assume you meant SvD and DeLorean :D Funnily enough I generally don't like big stupid quoted posts that do the same so i take your point.

I think it was SvD who introduced the term microscopic analysis anyway, I dont consider that microscopic analysis.

A GKs essential skills are - not limited to - (first two talking about shot stopping ability, 3rd one more than just shot stopping )agility, speed, positional/spatial awareness, commanding in the air and accuracy from kickouts/passing. If a keeper is lacking basic agility to get down quick and also cover off angles(positional awareness) he is lacking 2 out of 5 essential skills. I think Forde is lacking in 2 of those, not completely inept. It's nothing to do with told you so, but there is a reason why he is 33 at Milwall, and by sounds of it he isn't getting rave reviews there either.
What sounds are you listening to? He came 2nd in the Millwall poty awards for last season.
The main reservation on Millwall discussion boards that I have come across, from supporters who may or may not have a clue, is that Forde does not command his area, a criticism which I found strange. Possibly Forde has a multi personality goalkeeping disorder. In a Millwall shirt he's all continental in the air but recovers with good footwork and acceptable agility :)

There was an example yesterday in the Arsenal game around 70 mins where the keeper got down really quick and pushed a strong hand to keep the ball out of the bottom corner. It was a good save, but it was one you would expect a good keeper to make, I'm pretty sure Forde wouldn't have the ability to get down and keep that kinda shot out.
In the EPL highlights, I saw 3 goals scored against 3 different goalkeepers, that I'd expect Forde would have saved.

I have given 3 examples where i think he should have done better and more than likely saved us a goal. Its nothing to do with microscopic analysis or told you so. I've always said on here I love being wrong when it comes to predictions about the IRish team or players.
Possibly I'd say you have a case for Forde being at fault for one of those goals, even that one is debatable.
Sometimes I think the posters on here live in some impermeable bubble around Team Ireland. :D Anyone i've spoken to at games or in general offline have the same concerns about Forde.
The concerns I have are that the best in-form goalkeeper is used from the available choices. The choice atm is between Westwood, Forde and Randolph. From what i've seen, there's much of a muchness between Westwood and Forde. That's the bubble I live in, it's an opinion based on the quality of the available choices.

[SkStu]

I agree with Geysir fully here.

Paul, my issue is with you apportioning blame to Forde for 3 goals where (for two of those instances anyway) there is very flimsy support for your assertion other than the ball hit the net. Essentially, it seems you are trying to support your overall assessment of him or bias against him ("33 and only playing for Milwall") by fabricating fault or at least exaggerating the level of culpability in his play (through microanalysis). He is far from perfect, no one is arguing that, but he is a good keeper and deserving of his place in the squad and team. He makes mistakes (all keepers do). His flaw is his kicking/distribution (it wont get much better). Everything else is - from what I have seen, read and heard - well above average.

[SwanVsDalton]

Ill leave that aside, because I don't go into micrcoscopic analysis, and assume you meant SvD and DeLorean Funnily enough I generally don't like big stupid quoted posts that do the same so i take your point.

Even though it was your picky analysis that was gradually leading to Forde being to blame for every goal since the Charlton era? Good one.


Sometimes I think the posters on here live in some impermeable bubble around Team Ireland. :D Anyone i've spoken to at games or in general offline have the same concerns about Forde.

Read everyone's posts back. Think everyone shares those concerns. It's just some of us believe Forde has actual strengths as well and won't resort to pointing out non-existent errors. Patently obvious a lot of Ireland fans feel the same way.

[paul_oshea]

I was joking there but didn't expect your nerdy sense to get that :P

No every fan I spoke to at the match felt forde should habe done better for their second goal. And anyone I spoke to at the time about the greece goal.

They are not errors in the form of dropping the ball or mistining or misreading but they are still mistakes that could have saved us a goal or two.

[DeLorean]

Bumping thread.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LisfqRGR7k

[DeLorean]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-jAg7cyVKY

[DeLorean]

Closed thread.