Poland V Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 19th November 2013 - Friendly - Poznań

[paul_oshea]

Forde has issues with ball at feet, no doubt. Always has, always will - just isn't comfortable. That's partly why he's always so methodical when kicking or collecting the ball. His focus in possession is absolute. I like that he recognises and tries to combat it.

Westwood doesn't bring as much comfort to the backline or take pressure off defenders. On current evidence they're both decent shot stoppers. I think the likelihood of either making a clanger is about the same. Forde has the jersey, and I think that's fair.

2 hours once a week and 3 weeks of the summer at 33 he should have eradicated this. Place out markers to him, roll the ball back fast and aim for the markers. I cannot understand for the life of me even if he played LOI very long that he can't master this. IT is not an innate ability, its a learned skill.

[tricky_colour]

On the bright side, like many Irish, Forde may never fulfill his potential.

[paul_oshea]

i keep hearing this but in 15 games how many goals were his fault?

Not directly his fault but the 2nd sweden goal he should have done a lot lot better.

[OwlsFan]

A draw in an away game. The Trap era continues.

No Robbie, no goals and the home keeper didn't have one save to make.

Rejuvination of McGeady - way too soon to say that as his crosses were still poor. One swallow does not make a Summer. Seems to be all the trend of the media comments.

Paul Dempsey was almost having an orgasm every time an Irish player closed down the opposition which apparently was unheard of under Trap despite Robbie putting pressure on a centre back and scoring against Slovakia from his weak back-pass.

Good news from that game was we didn't lose and Wilson did the business at centre-half. McCarthy continues to grow in the team.
Bad news - none really except we didn't look like scoring and Walters is not a winger.

Otherwise a game to filed away in the statistics locker.

[jbyrne]

Not directly his fault but the 2nd sweden goal he should have done a lot lot better.

really?
clutching at straws to prove your early prediction that he would be an accident waiting to happen.

[the doc]

I was a bit disappointed in the selection. I just don't like Walters RHM, even though I think he did well enough.

Forde looked as composed as ever. Kicking from the ground a bit suspect, but that was a dreadful pitch - which matters for a keeper.

I thought Wilson and SSL looked decent at CB. I genuinely think we have no worries in that department. I love how SSL, without any club action, just slots in well any time he is asked. Kelly did fine.

I thought ward had his best game for us, he looks reborn, just like McGeady. Green was better than his club status would suggest. I hope people finally give him credit.

McCarthy is maturing and taking charge more, but still has more in his locker.

Long was decent enough, not great but not bad.

Stokes struggled I thought and he sends the fear of God into me when he drops deep for the ball.

As a team I thought we were cohesive and "modern" for about 55 minutes. There was a passage of play on 28/29 minutes that was as accomplished a passing phase as I have ever seen in an Irish team. It was clear that sending it long was to be added to the mix, but was cleraly not the only tactic. They were allowed to mix it, and that's fine by me.

The last 30 mins or so was Trap era away football all over again though. Midfield stopped showing for it and when under pressure we kept sending it long again.

Set pieces were good.

So, overall: decent enough but work still to do. We need to create more chances from open play.

Some good points there, I thought the back four were all over the place for the final 10 or so mins after St Ledger went off.

OShea was lucky to stay on the pitch after his Henry impression.

Early days, but it's looking like OShea at CB with any one of four for the other CB place.

Euro 2016 is the target so let's back whoever plays.

COYBIG

[paul_oshea]

really?
clutching at straws to prove your early prediction that he would be an accident waiting to happen.

No, infact looking back i think he probably could have done a bit better on a few other occassions as well.

Its like the Trap thing, ye all lay in the bunkers with helmets on as if nothing was wrong and waited for the inevitable. And because you still might not have registered that, that his approach was going to lead to us getting tonked and it happened.


Paul Dempsey was almost having an orgasm every time an Irish player closed down the opposition which apparently was unheard of under Trap despite Robbie putting pressure on a centre back and scoring against Slovakia from his weak back-pass

Don't you mean Macedonia?

[DannyInvincible]

Its like the Trap thing, ye all lay in the bunkers with helmets on as if nothing was wrong and waited for the inevitable. And because you still might not have registered that, that his approach was going to lead to us getting tonked and it happened.

We shall exalt the Oracle of All Wisdom! :p

[back of the net]

Its like the Trap thing, ye all lay in the bunkers with helmets on as if nothing was wrong and waited for the inevitable. And because you still might not have registered that, that his approach was going to lead to us getting tonked and it happened.





In fairness Paul - i recall quite alot of posters on Foot been less than happy about trap and his tactical methods and player selection and this was before the euros and that the same posters were calling for a change in his style of play or otherwise it would ultimately lead to a unhappy ending for our team

[DannyInvincible]

In fairness Paul - i recall quite alot of posters on Foot been less than happy about trap and his tactical methods and player selection

They were only copying Paul.

[geysir]

It wasn't much of a game to watch fully the day after and knowing it was a scoreless affair. We had a very disjointed set up. At times it looked 4-3-3, other times I couldn't see who was the designated player to receive the ball in the Polish half, it was a free for all. Amongst the positives was a readiness amongst the players to support each other and when a mistake was made or a player getting boxed in, more often than not there was support available.
Apart from Hoolahan and Reid we don't have much on the football technique side. McCarthy can just about get on the front foot but is more direct with his distribution. Reid and Hoolahan are both in the twilight zone and will not always be injury free. That leaves us waiting for Gibson to return. Playing the ball out of our box, passing it on the ground is still a difficult concept when there is some pressing from the opposition.
When McClean sent that ball across the goalmouth, anybody think it was tailor made for Robbie who might have anticipated the whole move and tapped the ball in?

It won't take a brain surgeon of a coach to figure out that Forde's distribution of the ball under pressure is haphazard and every team we play will be under instructions to put him under maximum pressure. His distribution has been poor since his first cap at Lansdowne (against Poland?) where he had to show just how good of a goalie he was to save the situation.
If he's better than Westwood, then fair enough and I suppose the decision would depend a lot on McDonagh's advice who knows about these things.

[tricky_colour]

Whilst Poland are almost as far down in the ranking as us, teams such as England Portugal Greece and Russia could only manage a draw there in the last two years and they beat Denmark.
So a decent result in that respect, OK we didn't look too great second half but then they never really looked like scoring.
A good exercise in looking at number of players to see what they can't do as well as what the can not do.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Latest blog on the first two games here is anyone's interested.

http://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.ie/2013/11/evolution-not-revolution.html

[paul_oshea]

We shall exalt the Oracle of All Wisdom! :p

Yes ask geysir for your opinion from now on :P

[Junior]

A draw in an away game. The Trap era continues.

No Robbie, no goals and the home keeper didn't have one save to make.

Rejuvination of McGeady - way too soon to say that as his crosses were still poor. One swallow does not make a Summer. Seems to be all the trend of the media comments.

Paul Dempsey was almost having an orgasm every time an Irish player closed down the opposition which apparently was unheard of under Trap despite Robbie putting pressure on a centre back and scoring against Slovakia from his weak back-pass.

Good news from that game was we didn't lose and Wilson did the business at centre-half. McCarthy continues to grow in the team.
Bad news - none really except we didn't look like scoring and Walters is not a winger.

Otherwise a game to filed away in the statistics locker.

I'm not one that actually thinks a rejuvenation is required. McGeady has been good for us imo over the last 4 or 5 years. No doubt he has more in his locker but I am more of a supporter than knocker and think his performances and what he brings to the table have been under appreciated by some/most. Anyway, Ill take the bite - I watched on a fairly crappy stream but I actually thought McGeady put in some decent crosses last night. The Paul Green headed chance was a McG cross. The whipped in cross to Wilson on the edge of the box who flicked it inside and it went just beyond Robbie on the backpost are just two examples I can think of. I certainly cant think of (m)any under hit crosses or crosses that didnt beat the first man etc....

[DeLorean]

There were a couple of really poor free kicks alright but I completely agree with you overall. He's cool on the ball and makes defenders think, sounds basic enough but we don't have any other player who really does that. He's often doubled up on, making his own contribution limited at times but frees up space for others. I'm a big fan overall bar the obvious frustrations.

[DeLorean]

i keep hearing this but in 15 games how many goals were his fault?

So because he has got away with his countless miscues from back passes, so far, we have no reason to worry? My point was that it can't do much to help create a confident defence. I like Forde by the way and I think he has done well for us for the most part but I'd feel safer with Westwood.


I think it was telling that Westwood was given the easier game though. Forde still has it for me.

You could be right that Forde is No.1 but I'd dispute the logic... is it telling that Coleman or O'Shea started the easier game?

[paul_oshea]

. Amongst the positives was a readiness amongst the players to support each other and when a mistake was made or a player getting boxed in, more often than not there was support available.
Playing the ball out of our box, passing it on the ground is still a difficult concept when there is some pressing from the opposition.

When McClean sent that ball across the goalmouth, anybody think it was tailor made for Robbie who might have anticipated the whole move and tapped the ball in?

It won't take a brain surgeon of a coach to figure out that Forde's distribution of the ball under pressure is haphazard and every team we play will be under instructions to put him under maximum pressure. His distribution has been poor since his first cap at Lansdowne (against Poland?) where he had to show just how good of a goalie he was to save the situation.
If he's better than Westwood, then fair enough and I suppose the decision would depend a lot on McDonagh's advice who knows about these things.

I put in bold the only real things to take from the game, the core difference was that players supported eachother in tight spaces so the necessity to hoof it forward wasn't required - I still don't understand what Trap was playing at here, hoping to catch on the counter-attack with players not suited to that game or not able to play it. We also harried and pressurised rather than sitback which was another positive, obviously against certain opposition who can counter quickly we need to be wary of this, but they were the 2 main positives I took from the game.

I've seen Robbie get too far forward or fall too far behind for as many of those type crosses that he has scored.

I actually think Fordes kicking is awful, but that's not what worries me most about him. I think his positioning(not for high balls) and agility to get down low, fast and quick is quite poor.

[geysir]

I

I actually think Fordes kicking is awful, but that's not what worries me most about him. I think his positioning(not for high balls) and agility to get down low, fast and quick is quite poor.
Forde can get down but you say he can't get down fast enough, regardless of measuring the nanosecond involved, it would be very difficult for an opposition to exploit that one.
Whereas it's relatively straightforward for the opposition to keep pressurising him when he has the ball at his feet in the box, to force him into a mistake.

[SwanVsDalton]

2 hours once a week and 3 weeks of the summer at 33 he should have eradicated this. Place out markers to him, roll the ball back fast and aim for the markers. I cannot understand for the life of me even if he played LOI very long that he can't master this. IT is not an innate ability, its a learned skill.

You don't think Forde - an international goalkeeper - isn't aware of that? Or hasn't had that coached into him? Of course not. He obviously has worked on aspects of this game, and he certainly isn't negligent or lazy as you've suggested. If he hasn't mastered it, it isn't for lack of work or coaching. And, besides, he has gained ability - he was a lot worse with ball at feet in his Derry days. Improved kicking is learned, but eradicating it completely is not.


No, infact looking back i think he probably could have done a bit better on a few other occassions as well.

So could every keeper when you hold a microscope over them. Every player in fact. Not to say you shouldn't get forensic but, in context, Forde's performances put him in credit for me.


His distribution has been poor since his first cap at Lansdowne (against Poland?) where he had to show just how good of a goalie he was to save the situation. If he's better than Westwood, then fair enough and I suppose the decision would depend a lot on McDonagh's advice who knows about these things.

To combine a response to both POS and Geysir: I do think if he's to continue as first choice, management should look to work on this and spur him on. I'd particularly like him to quicken up. Away from home or under the cosh, it's fine to take your time over a kick.

But Forde's actually got a decent throw on him, and occasionally looks to use it - but almost always decides against it, as if it's too risky. Maybe this is a Trap hangover, maybe it's a lack of confidence. But ideally in future we'll look to build play from the back, with defenders/DM's dropping deep to pick up a short pass from the goalie.

This would suit Forde better - at Derry, Kenny looked to play short from the back all the time. But he has to be encouraged to step back from safe long option. And the team has to be dominant enough (most likely at home) to get plenty of time and space in the backline.


So because he has got away with his countless miscues from back passes, so far, we have no reason to worry? My point was that it can't do much to help create a confident defence.

Swings and roundabouts? Forde dominates his area better, I'm sure the centre halves love that and are more confident defending balls into the box because of it.

I think everyone has reason to worry about it, but, likewise, Westwood has had his moments in the past and in context Forde's done well. However bets will be off if Westwood can continue his promising form into next March.

[DeLorean]

The ability (agility) to get down low quickly is massive. This might be a small bit harsh but even the Greek winner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppGQnuyAni0) against us looked suspect to me. He appeared to have no chance because it was right in the corner and he was a good distance from saving it. That said, if he was a bit sharper and had more agility perhaps he could have made it look a routine save? There wasn't huge force on the shot. The Swedish winner wasn't great on his part either, although it was well struck.


Swings and roundabouts? Forde dominates his area better, I'm sure the centre halves love that and are more confident defending balls into the box because of it.

I think everyone has reason to worry about it, but, likewise, Westwood has had his moments in the past and in context Forde's done well. However bets will be off if Westwood can continue his promising form
into next March.

It's not swings and roundabouts for me on what I have seen. If Westwood was very suspect under crosses then maybe, but I haven't found this to be the case. He did have an awkward moment against Fulham in the first PL game this season but he usually seems assured. In the PL match against United, for example, he dominated his area very well.

It sounds like I'm having a go at Forde, I'm really not and it's great that we have the luxury of a debate concerning two pretty good keepers. From what I have seen though, Westwood seems closer to top quality than Forde for me.

[SwanVsDalton]

It's not swings and roundabouts for me on what I have seen. If Westwood was very suspect under crosses then maybe, but I haven't found this to be the case. He did have an awkward moment against Fulham in the first PL game this season but he usually seems assured. In the PL match against United, for example, he dominated his area very well.

It sounds like I'm having a go at Forde, I'm really not and it's great that we have the luxury of a debate concerning two pretty good keepers. From what I have seen though, Westwood seems closer to top quality than Forde for me.

Admittedly I'm basing it mostly on Irish appearances - but I think it's telling that Forde claims almost everything, while I don't think Westwood is so dominant. Not to say he can't be, or isn't with Sunderland, but it's just not something I've seen so far.

Also, again, are we going to apply similar forensic scrutiny to Westwood's performance against, for example, Germany? If you were feeling harsh you might say he was too attached to his near post for the second, was half-hearted coming off his line for the fourth and slow to react for the sixth. Equally you'd say Reus' second was a great strike, the fourth came after we were shellshocked and the sixth he was probably unsighted.

Likewise I think it's great to have this discussion and, ideally, Westwood will be pulling off heroics for Sunderland for the rest of the season. Best way to convince anyone really.

[Charlie Darwin]

Not sure I agree with the criticism of Forde's agility. Granted, he was very slow getting down for the second Sweden goal but I don't think it's something we should fear becoming a regular occurrence. Certainly, of the two goalkeepers in question, I've seen Forde make more difficult saves in his appearances than Westwood has, and certainly has shown he can make saves that the Shay Given of Euro 2012 and beyond wouldn't.

[Stuttgart88]

In fairness to Forde, he was just back from injury when we played Sweden at home. I think he was superb at Wembley and in Cologne. A year ago I'd have been Westwood all the way, even when he was deputy to Mignolet, but now I'm very much in favour of Forde.

Point taken about his kicking but that pitch was a nightmare for keepers on Tuesday.

DeLorean, I also take your point about the rotation but I think O'Neill wanted his most reliable keeper when he fielded what was probably a weaker outfield. But who knows?!

[paul_oshea]

Forde can get down but you say he can't get down fast enough, regardless of measuring the nanosecond involved, it would be very difficult for an opposition to exploit that one.
Whereas it's relatively straightforward for the opposition to keep pressurising him when he has the ball at his feet in the box, to force him into a mistake.

Of course its important, a kick out, posession he has, or a shot low into the corner, which is more likely to and more often to cause a goal? Its the latter. Analysis has to be microscopic on stuff like this. Greece and the 2nd sweden are clear examples. Someone mentioned about commanding his box and embedding confidence in the defence, Given never commanded his box, but he was still a great keeper, and i'm sure the defence were very confident in his ability, so that argument for his inclusion is not as important as a keepers ability to make saves.

Its a very fine line in Goalkeeping between a good save or a mistake or should have done better. Whilst he made those saves in Germany, thats what I would expect, most of them had he not done so I would have said the same.

[DeLorean]

Also, again, are we going to apply similar forensic scrutiny to Westwood's performance against, for example, Germany? If you were feeling harsh you might say he was too attached to his near post for the second, was half-hearted coming off his line for the fourth and slow to react for the sixth. Equally you'd say Reus' second was a great strike, the fourth came after we were shellshocked and the sixth he was probably unsighted.

In the interests of forensic fairness I watched those goals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOiAxDUSOn0) again. For the second he had no chance, in fact he was very quick to close off the angle when it became apparent that Reus was going to get a shot in. The fact that he covered his near post so well forced Reus into a perfect execution across his body. If anything it could be compared with how Forde didn't do the same against Sweden and left Svensson with an easier task of putting it in at the near post. The fourth he was again very quick off his line even though it seemed unlikely that Darren O'Dea would be taken out with a fairly run of the mill through ball. That said, maybe he could have done better to get his body in the way of the angled shot. I don't think the last one is really open to forensic analysis, just a perfectly stuck shot which pretty much bent in around him.

I wouldn't have huge fears over Forde's agility either CD, but I would tend to think that Westwood is the more agile of the two. It's not comparing good and bad a such but, in order to level the playing field, Forde's strengths would have to be a nice bit better than Westwood's to redeem his ball to feet malfunctions.

[DeLorean]

DeLorean, I also take your point about the rotation but I think O'Neill wanted his most reliable keeper when he fielded what was probably a weaker outfield. But who knows?!

I wonder will Westwood playing under O'Neill at Sunderland help or hinder him. Obviously O'Neill is going to have a really strong opinion on him as things stand, unlike with Forde.

[SwanVsDalton]

In the interests of forensic fairness I watched those goals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOiAxDUSOn0) again. For the second he had no chance, in fact he was very quick to close off the angle when it became apparent that Reus was going to get a shot in. The fact that he covered his near post so well forced Reus into a perfect execution across his body. If anything it could be compared with how Forde didn't do the same against Sweden and left Svensson with an easier task of putting it in at the near post. The fourth he was again very quick off his line even though it seemed unlikely that Darren O'Dea would be taken out with a fairly run of the mill through ball. That said, maybe he could have done better to get his body in the way of the angled shot. I don't think the last one is really open to forensic analysis, just a perfectly stuck shot which pretty much bent in around him.

You understand my point wasn't to criticise Westwood but just to put forward a similar level of microcriticism as pointed at Forde, in regards to the Greece goal particularly (I think you brought it up a few posts back).

I don't think Westwood was at fault for any of those goals, but his actions certainly were not perfect when put under the microscope. Neither has Forde's been in the past, but I trust him to execute the job as equally as Westwood and he gets the nod because his performances have been better (and, on a couple of occasions, spectacular). Westwood hasn't had a game in an Irish shirt anywhere near Stockholm, London or Cologne for Forde.

If your gut is saying Westwood, then I can't argue with that. But if we took a straw poll for player of the past year, Forde would be in danger of winning the thing - albeit in a field with very few candidates!

[DeLorean]

No, I understood your point but what I meant about Forde (v. Greece) was that maybe he doesn't have the agility to get down low very quickly. This isn't really the same thing as being out of position or making a mistake, slight or otherwise. It could be an actual attribute (or lack thereof) that could set the two goalkeepers apart. I'm not saying for definite this is the case.

It's not so much a gut feeling either with regards my preference for Westwood, it's based on the evidence I've seen of both, for club (very limited) and country. Forde's performance in Sweden was based on a steadiness under crosses more than anything, I wouldn't argue against his competence in this area. In terms of his performance in Germany, I think it may have been a bit overstated (by myself included) because of how busy he was. He did make one or two really outstanding saves, I'm just not convinced that (a) Westwood wouldn't have done the same and (b) had they gone in he wouldn't have been criticised for not saving them. I realise that (a), in particular, is a moot point.

I remember Westwood replacing Given seemlessly in that vital qualifier against Macedonia and looking very assured, and any time I saw him for Sunderland also, which included an incredible double save at Old Trafford at one point. I find it a bit of a contrast having a goalkeeper that your heart skips every time a ball is played back to him, even allowing for his other attributes of which there are plenty.

I accept we've seen relatively little of both, for different reasons, so I guess the jury is still out.

[OwlsFan]

I'm not one that actually thinks a rejuvenation is required. McGeady has been good for us imo over the last 4 or 5 years. No doubt he has more in his locker but I am more of a supporter than knocker and think his performances and what he brings to the table have been under appreciated by some/most. Anyway, Ill take the bite - I watched on a fairly crappy stream but I actually thought McGeady put in some decent crosses last night. The Paul Green headed chance was a McG cross. The whipped in cross to Wilson on the edge of the box who flicked it inside and it went just beyond Robbie on the backpost are just two examples I can think of. I certainly cant think of (m)any under hit crosses or crosses that didnt beat the first man etc....

They beat the first man ok, and the second, and the third and the fourth....he obviously has tried to overcompensate on occasions in the Polish game.

I find him a very frustrating player who can give the ball away very easily at times. On the plus side, there is nearly always an air of expectation when he is on the ball and he can make things happen but his end product often does not live up to that expectation. I just have a feeling of unfulfilled potential whenever I see him play. I remember reading rave reviews about him when he first came on the scene: the new Maradona etc. That's not his fault that people were saying that about him and of course Celtic fans would hear no wrong about him (whatever happened to McGeady10 ?) but I just don't think he never became the finished article. Well worth a place in the squad and probably also the side but not above criticism.

[geysir]

A fit and available Westwood was the first choice of Kelly until he wasn't available due to fitness or him not getting first team football, now that both are available I'd be reasonably confident that a goalkeeping coach like McDonagh can figure out which is our nr 1.

[paul_oshea]

Neither has Forde's been in the past, but I trust him to execute the job as equally as Westwood and he gets the nod because his performances

I'm not sure what you are basing this on, I think the word microscopic is a bit strong, its a fundamental attribute of a good/very good keeper, to have agility and speed of hand in this case getting down to the ground and getting a hand towards the ball as quickly as possible, I don't even think we talking nanoseconds here than milliseconds, which is a significant number in the lifecyle of a keeper making a save. Put simply, based on making saves, which is the most important factor, and the consequences of not doing enough to make those saves(Sweden and Greece)*, I would have Westwood ahead, and I think we will see O'Neill do the same, unless Forde improves and Westwood goes backwards.

I remember thinking that to lose 6-1 the keeper must have done something wrong in at least one or 2 goals, I can remember thinking for 2 Westwood could have done better, but I'm not really sure he could have, and I'm pretty sure that Forde wouldn't have. But in the scheme of things it didnt really matter, we got tonked, same as Fordes saves against Germany away, where it did really really matter was Sweden, and a close game like the Greek one, he didnt deliver and perhaps could have been the difference between a score.

[SwanVsDalton]

I'm not sure what you are basing this on, I think the word microscopic is a bit strong, its a fundamental attribute of a good/very good keeper, to have agility and speed of hand in this case getting down to the ground and getting a hand towards the ball as quickly as possible, I don't even think we talking nanoseconds here than milliseconds, which is a significant number in the lifecyle of a keeper making a save.

The reason I'm describing it as 'microscopic' is because the criticisms appear to disregard Forde's strong points and high calibre performances (of which there has been three) to focus on two goals - against Sweden and Greece. The Sweden goal, for me, was a mistake but not an uncommon one for a goalie. The Greece one I don't see much in personally. Either way what we're talking about is question the agility and hand speed of a guy who has made some seriously world class saves for us over the past year. That is microscopic criticism, when it appears to lapse the context. No offence but the tenor of your and DeLorean's argument is 'Forde is a mistake waiting to happen' which doesn't tell the story of his tenure in goal so far.

For the record I don't think he's anywhere near as slow as that.


Put simply, based on making saves, which is the most important factor, and the consequences of not doing enough to make those saves(Sweden and Greece)*, I would have Westwood ahead, and I think we will see O'Neill do the same, unless Forde improves and Westwood goes backwards...

...But in the scheme of things it didnt really matter, we got tonked, same as Fordes saves against Germany away, where it did really really matter was Sweden, and a close game like the Greek one, he didnt deliver and perhaps could have been the difference between a score.

I just don't see how you can base that on 'making saves' or 'not making them'. Forde's cleaned out Westwood in terms of shot-stopping for Ireland. Westwood had plenty of saves to make against to Germany - he didn't make them. Not entirely his fault but still. Forde had some screamers aimed at him against Germany but he kept them out.

As for games that matter or don't - Sweden away featured about three crucial saves to guarantee a point. England away likewise in the second half (if we're counting friendlies). By your reckoning the game in Germany was more meaningless (so the saves less relevant), but then where does that leave Westwood he couldn't pull it out at home when it mattered?

Again if Westwood's your number one choice fine, but I don't see a consistent approach in how these two are being evaluated. And it's just plain skewed to castigate two arguable errors (possibly the only two) and totally dismiss some really, really fantastic goalkeeping because of the opposition or 'games that matter'.

[Stuttgart88]

I though Forde was very good away to Sweden too. A super save in injury time. He made some smart stops against England too, including getting down quickly at his near post to defy Walcott. I think he is good in the air and the best under a high ball since Bonner in the late 80s, in fact probably better.

I watched all 3 keepers up close in Gdansk during the extensive pre match warm ups 30 mins before KO. Westwood had the quickest reactions, Given had acquired a bizarre technique of fisting everything straight at him (which cost us a goal in the game) and Forde looked to have the slowest reactions. Thats all well and good though. A good goalie reads games well and I think Forde does this better than Westwood. I also think Westwood gets caught under high balls at club level, but I still think he is re-acquiring confidence and isn't yet the same keeper that was outstanding at Old Trafford.

I like both keepers and think Forde deserves to stay in the jersey on merit. I like his composure and presence and I think his presence makes up for some minor flaws.

[DannyInvincible]

A comical string of Lewandowski-related tweets courtesy of an assortment of idiots last Tuesday night:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/50e69e124ae6d057082e50741dd8c232/tumblr_mwj4xeYouY1qboytzo2_500.png
http://31.media.tumblr.com/50f4324d40e06a229b6c3d8f3f341e93/tumblr_mwj4xeYouY1qboytzo3_500.png
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That's not our Jonathan Douglas, is it?!

[Charlie Darwin]

Given had acquired a bizarre technique of fisting everything straight at him (which cost us a goal in the game)
Chest/shoulder injury?


A comical string of Lewandowski-related tweets courtesy of an assortment of idiots last Tuesday night:

That's not our Jonathan Douglas, is it?!
Unless our Jonathan has suddenly become an underage Gah player for Offaly, I'd say it's probably not.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm, Forde and Westwood?
Two bald men fighting over a comb...

Both mediocre at best, but don't care who plays, more about how we set up in midfield and what our back four is. Even everyone's 'best' selection is never going to be overly inspiring.

[Charlie Darwin]

That's actually a ridiculous thing to say about Forde and Westwood. They might not be elite goalkeepers but both are very good and we're in a lot better position than we were when Given's absence meant we were panicking about the second line of defence. After Alan Kelly retired, we were blessed that Given maintained his fitness so long and seemed to time his injuries for when we didn't have competitive games.

[SkStu]

A comical string of Lewandowski-related tweets courtesy of an assortment of idiots last Tuesday night:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/50e69e124ae6d057082e50741dd8c232/tumblr_mwj4xeYouY1qboytzo2_500.png
http://31.media.tumblr.com/50f4324d40e06a229b6c3d8f3f341e93/tumblr_mwj4xeYouY1qboytzo3_500.png

That's not our Jonathan Douglas, is it?!

Why didn't he start for Germany though? Fair question
















;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's actually a ridiculous thing to say about Forde and Westwood. They might not be elite goalkeepers but both are very good and we're in a lot better position than we were when Given's absence meant we were panicking about the second line of defence. After Alan Kelly retired, we were blessed that Given maintained his fitness so long and seemed to time his injuries for when we didn't have competitive games.
It's not really. Neither are Given at his peak, nor will be ever anything like...

Not the difference between winning and losing a game, both just competent. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's far more about how we're set up on the field that will dictate results.

[Charlie Darwin]

It's not really. Neither are Given at his peak, nor will be ever anything like...

Not the difference between winning and losing a game, both just competent. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's far more about how we're set up on the field that will dictate results.
That's an insane comparison. Given is the best goalkeeper this country has ever produced. By that logic, Tevez and Aguero would be two bald men fighting over a comb when compared to Maradona, but nobody to make such a moronic analogy. Westwood and Forde are of a similar standard, and I for one am glad we have them rather than Paddy Kenny and Wayne Henderson. You might prefer to play ten men and no goalkeeper in the absence of Given in his prime, but I'm going to take the common sense approach and hope Martin O'Neill picks a goalkeeper in his team, and luckily for us it looks like he will select one of the aforementioned twosome.

Although, you never know, O'Neill might call up Alan Kelly, Sr in his prime next week, or maybe even Pat Jennings circa 1982. We can always hope. They were team mates after all.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except Tevez and Aguero are both capable of changing a result, a bit like Maradona back in his day.
Forde/Westwood aren't and never will be. And Kenny/Henderson are marginally 'worse', but again probably aren't ever going to affect a result either way.
So all this navel gazing is irrelevant. Unless we discover a better keeper.

As for moronic analogies, well that's Kelly & Jennings being put into the equation when they're probably both just glad to still be alive...

[Charlie Darwin]

No, you're wrong. Forde won us a point in Sweden.

[ArdeeBhoy]

As opposed to Westwood, who didn't play.

And that, tbf, was more about how Trap set up the team to cancel out the Swedes. Oh and that Zlatan wasn't that interested either, possibly the two are related?

[Charlie Darwin]

OK, so Zlatan wasn't interested. He was interested for the games against Germany, Austria, Kazakhstan, the Faroes and Portugal, but for some reason he wasn't interested against a very beatable team that could have won his side qualification for his last World Cup. Perhaps he had a headache, or perhaps he's just a keen critic of David Forde and wanted to provoke a few extra pages of debate on foot.ie.

Forde made several great saves to earn us a point. Westwood I remember making a great save to win us three points against Macedonia. The fact is Ireland are a side where we need our goalkeeper to make saves to get us results. Argentina have the opposite problem - they need their strikers to win them games where the opposition is set up to defend. They're important players for different reasons.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Forde played his part, but though I was no fan of Trap in that last campaign, that was entirely about he set up the Ireland side, in which the keeper was just an incidental piece.

Failure to grasp this, is a failure to grasp the fundamentals of football tactics. This was one time recently Trap got it 'right'. Bravo?


Something for MO'N & co. to build on, away from home.

[geysir]

Trap's formation in Stockholm to neutralise the Swedish threat, stunned Zlatan into a state of apathy,
and therefore our goalie wasn't exposed to more shots? Some Crocodile Dundee type jinx?
We were fortunate that Trap had a little bit of black magic up his sleeve, seeing how his renowned lucky streak had dried up.

[Stuttgart88]

Just FYI, "our" player was Jonathon Douglas!

And Charlie D, no I don't think Given's punching was anything to do with injury. I don't know, but I reckon he was being coached into copying the European style of goalkeeping. These were hard, crisp shots straight at his chest. Bread and butter stuff for even amateur goalkeepers.

[DeLorean]

No offence but the tenor of your and DeLorean's argument is 'Forde is a mistake waiting to happen' which doesn't tell the story of his tenure in goal so far.

Offence taken! :) I don't think you're getting me. I'm going to make one final attempt and leave it at that. I really like Forde and think he has performed superbly for us since his introduction, which was a baptism of fire in a team devoid of any confidence and up against it in most games. I also think it's a wonderful story, making his debut at 31 and he really appears to be loving every minute of it. He clearly has a really good temperament for the big occasion as well which is admirable for a guy of so little big game experience, relatively speaking.

"A mistake waiting to happen".... I can only speak for myself but I mean this in relation to his poor kicking only. It's not a mistake waiting to happen, it's a mistake that happens a couple of times per game depending on how often the ball is passed back to him. It's a mistake waiting to be punished. It also gives the opposition some impetus as it makes us appear nervous and shaky. The majority on here seem to think that it's a flaw that can be overlooked because it either hasn't really been punished yet or the rest of his game makes up for it. I would probably agree if we didn't have another goalkeeper of at least similar ability who doesn't possess this flaw. It wouldn't be as big an issue if we were a team capable of retaining possession and our outfield players didn't use their goalkeeper as an outlet so often, but at the moment they do.

When I mentioned the goals conceded to Greece and Sweden, I wasn't having a go. Neither were criminal. I was only making the point that if we are to overlook his ball to feet inadequacies, the rest of his game should be substantially better than Westwood's. On what I have seen, I don't think it is.

[tetsujin1979]

A comical string of Lewandowski-related tweets courtesy of an assortment of idiots last Tuesday night:
That's not our Jonathan Douglas, is it?!
no, this is his twitter account: https://twitter.com/dougieno8


Just FYI, "our" player was Jonathon Douglas!

that's not how he spells it!