Permutations for 1st division play off spots

[legendz]

It's a shame to see the first division in it's current state. It was some division a few years back with 12 clubs, and even more so when the likes of Cork and Derry were playing in the division.


In my view, very much being on the outside of what's going on, GUST should be allowed return on their own. If Mervue and Salthill are still there, what about it? They've become established in the league over the last few years. As long as they are eligible for a licence, while it's not ideal for 3 clubs from the area, just get on with it.

[abcd]

I believe the FAI are looking for a sort of natural wastage to try and take the problem of two divisions out of their hands. If they can contribute to finishing off another 3 clubs they'll be down to a nice 16 team premier division and all will be well with the world again. We are bound to see at least 3 teams going to the wall in the next couple of years.

[legendz]

I believe the FAI are looking for a sort of natural wastage to try and take the problem of two divisions out of their hands. If they can contribute to finishing off another 3 clubs they'll be down to a nice 16 team premier division and all will be well with the world again. We are bound to see at least 3 teams going to the wall in the next couple of years.

Why 16? 18 clubs over 2 series is only one more game than the current 33 games of the Premier Division. Teams will have 17 home games each and it more or less fits into the current schedule. If they consider an intermediary A type league between U19 and Premier Division, 18 clubs split into 3 regions could be a good starting point.

[A face]

Why 16? 18 clubs over 2 series is only one more game than the current 33 games of the Premier Division. Teams will have 17 home games each and it more or less fits into the current schedule. If they consider an intermediary A type league between U19 and Premier Division, 18 clubs split into 3 regions could be a good starting point.

18 clubs definitely makes more sense alright. allow clubs to get a bit more money in and if it were one division there would be no repeat fixtures, and big games would be big.

[gufcfan]

18 clubs definitely makes more sense alright. allow clubs to get a bit more money in and if it were one division there would be no repeat fixtures, and big games would be big.

I completely disagree with this. The point is made time and time again, but attendances will fall off a cliff once teams have nothing to play for.

[Mr A]

The bottom clubs would be presumably playing to avoid re-election. At the top end you could have playoffs for European places to extend interest. As it is there are teams in the premier who've had feck all to play for for some time and the same in the first.

[wonder88]

I am old enough to remember a 1 divison league and fighting relegation does not result in bigger home crowds, compared to a comfotable mid-table position. Could someone from Bray confirm that there (hom support) crowds have increased since they fell into the relegation places, it does not look like it. I mentioned this before, there could be re-election for bottom 2 clubs and a financial penalty/fee to pay, also automatic explusion if a club finishes bottom 3 years in a row; this would get rid of the likes of Salthill for example.
Can't make it to Mervue game tonight, but I think the attendance will be more telling than the actual score of the match.

[nigel-harps1954]

I am old enough to remember a 1 divison league and fighting relegation does not result in bigger home crowds, compared to a comfotable mid-table position. Could someone from Bray confirm that there (hom support) crowds have increased since they fell into the relegation places, it does not look like it. I mentioned this before, there could be re-election for bottom 2 clubs and a financial penalty/fee to pay, also automatic explusion if a club finishes bottom 3 years in a row; this would get rid of the likes of Salthill for example.
Can't make it to Mervue game tonight, but I think the attendance will be more telling than the actual score of the match.

100% agree with this.

Also, this is probably where Fahys Field will now see a record attendance.

[Longfordian]

Couple of hundred LTFC heading to it by the sounds of things. Biggest interest in an away game since we went down 6 years ago. Funny how much more of a buzz there is this year compared to last. One good win has lifted the spirits.

[Longfordian]

1-0 Mervue. Corie Treacy sent off for LTFC, he's just back from a two game ban after getting sent off against Mervue if I remember rightly. FFS.

[Terry]

Couple of hundred LTFC heading to it by the sounds of things. Biggest interest in an away game since we went down 6 years ago. Funny how much more of a buzz there is this year compared to last. One good win has lifted the spirits.

If theres a couple of hundred of ye in it, ye must be outnumbering the home support as there is only around 300-350 at the match

Comon Mervue.

[IrishRossi]

looking at the et updates mervue are all over longford, when is the 2nd playoff match in longford next friday or sat?

[wonder88]

607 the offical attendance

[Longfordian]

Full time 1-0. Could have been a lot worse given the sending off fairly early on. Still in with a shout.

[luiz]

I am old enough to remember a 1 divison league and fighting relegation does not result in bigger home crowds, compared to a comfotable mid-table position. Could someone from Bray confirm that there (hom support) crowds have increased since they fell into the relegation places, it does not look like it. I mentioned this before, there could be re-election for bottom 2 clubs and a financial penalty/fee to pay, also automatic explusion if a club finishes bottom 3 years in a row; this would get rid of the likes of Salthill for example.
Can't make it to Mervue game tonight, but I think the attendance will be more telling than the actual score of the match.

Every country has a different football culture, but in most of leagues I've seen the attendances fall drastically when there's nothing to play for. 70s, 80s, were different times where there were fewer entertainment options and in some cities, all over the world, the sunday football was the only choice available. My team, which usually has average attendances ranging from 3k to 7k falls to a 3-digit figure when it has nothing to play for anymore (usually when it's already relegated, what happens year in year out).
Indeed being in relegation zone might not boost attendances, but we are speaking of a scenario where there's nothing to play for from the day 1. Imagine you are a Bohs or Bray fan, you know the team won't compete for the European spots, and since there's no relegation, why follow the matches at all? Actually, if I were from the board of one of those teams, I would build the cheapest squad I could (possibly an amateur one, and I bet most of other teams would do the same) knowing there is nothing at stake and the public wouldn't be interested, making the gap between those and the 3-4 teams that can afford building a competitive squad even bigger. We could easily have 6 or 7 Salthills.

My opinion is a single-division championship would be a good temporary measure, qualifying the best 10/12/14/16 teams for the next season, leading to a deadly championship with loads of drama and competition to the last minute, while FAI has one year rather than a few weeks to convince well established junior teams to join the league (something it has never done, actually going after the teams and making it more attractive to join, lower the requirements, raise the prizes, better promotion, regional groups, etc, etc, etc). Depending on how much would be able to join, we could see how big the Premier Division could be.

[Neish]

My guess would be that if Mervue win the First Division playoff, the the FAI will just let the 2nd last Premier team (ie Bray or UCD) stay in the premier. Not saying this is correct just what I'd imagine will happen from looking at FAI decisions in the past

[L.T.F.C.]

It may have become personal for the FAI over time, but in the grand scheme of things it's not even about GUST. The only thing certain FAI officials and want is to keep control of whatever joke-shop is happening in Galway. Makes absolutely no difference to them who it is or how good or bad they are, as long as it's their puppet.

It's just that GUST want to fix things and bring everyone that actually wants to help in together and have a FORAS type situation. Ideally what should happen is a co-op with ultimate say over the club would exist, with GUST ceasing to exist.

A proper co-op structure and club like FORAS were allowed to create and were lauded for doing so by the FAI hasn't been allowed because it would take away this control from the FAI.

Sort of back to the topic, Mervue have done a super job this season, but promotion or no, there is no appetite for LOI football among their membership so a couple of more seasons is all I could have seen them competing for. It's just too much of a financial strain where you gates don't even pay the match officials.

I don't think it makes any difference whether Mervue are in the LOI next season or not in terms of Jokeshop FC happening. The whole reason for it is to keep those votes and positions away from the great unwashed. Galway FC would just be a couple of reps from Mervue and Devon showing their faces and keeping the GUSTies from getting any ideas about fixing anything.
Pure nonsense.

[gormacha]

Pure nonsense.

Why's that then?

[cestlavie]

607 the offical attendance


**** poor for a playoff game. The game doesnt make sense unless the FAI are hoping that the can pull off some kind of stunt Re keepings Shels in the Premier league.

[NeverFeltBetter]

How could Shels stay in the top tier? Athlone are replacing them.

[East stand hoop]

I like the idea of a playoff for europe but how would it work considering you don't know how many teams qualify via the league until after the cup final. For example if 3rd place beats 4th in the play off 4th place can still qualify for europe depending on who wins the cup.

[nigel-harps1954]

**** poor for a playoff game. The game doesnt make sense unless the FAI are hoping that the can pull off some kind of stunt Re keepings Shels in the Premier league.

It's not going to be much more than that in Longford. Should we be looking to kick them out too?

[White Horse]

A longer season would be no harm, but even with 6 teams left to make up the First Division it would be better for everybody to have 2 divisions.

No relegation is a terrible idea. More games against bigger teams is not a justification for doing it. It doesn't make all the negatives disappear. Games against big teams or not, if you are outside the top few teams, nobody will care if you win or lose.

The big downside to one division is the lack of competition to avoid relegation.

Anyone who plays the bottom four teams at this time of the season knows they will fight for everything. Can the same be said for the few mid-table teams?

[Macy]

I'm not sure fans of premier division teams (or teams outside the league) are really grasping the situation. In an ideal world, there'd be two, competitive divsions. Making the first run with perhaps 6 teams rather than biting the bullet on a single division now, will just mean a smaller single division a few years down the line, as clubs won't survive medium term.

If it's not that bad, why don't we increase relegation/ promotion. Suck in a few mid table teams who apparently going through the motions into the relegation battle. Give those teams left in the 1st more of a chance to get out? 3 down, 3 up, and a play off. If having something to play for is the be all and end all.

[prince20]

This old nugget has arisen again. Rumour has it that some of the top premier sides are going to put a second team into the first division. Thoughts?

[harps1954]

This old nugget has arisen again. Rumour has it that some of the top premier sides are going to put a second team into the first division. Thoughts?

For ****s sake. The First Division is a joke at the moment the way it is, but this will take the biscuit. What are reserve teams going to add to the First Division. The FAI would be better off keeping Salthill and Mervue in the league than having second string sides from the top Division. Also, will these Reserve teams have to pay the league entrance fee? Will players that played in the first team be able to play in the Reserve team?

[Bawnville Hoop]

For ****s sake. The First Division is a joke at the moment the way it is, but this will take the biscuit. What are reserve teams going to add to the First Division. The FAI would be better off keeping Salthill and Mervue in the league than having second string sides from the top Division. Also, will these Reserve teams have to pay the league entrance fee? Will players that played in the first team be able to play in the Reserve team?

I think it's a good thing, certainly if a Shamrock Rovers B team joined it. Home games played on a Saturday, probably attendance of 500+ still and a decent travelling support.

[nigel-harps1954]

I think it's a good thing, certainly if a Shamrock Rovers B team joined it. Home games played on a Saturday, probably attendance of 500+ still and a decent travelling support.

Pure nonsense. Shamrock Rovers first team struggled to get 500 home fans at times in the first division.

Reserve teams would completely destroy the already disgraceful first division. It works somewhere like Spain but it would make a farce of things here.

[Bawnville Hoop]

Pure nonsense. Shamrock Rovers first team struggled to get 500 home fans at times in the first division.

Reserve teams would completely destroy the already disgraceful first division. It works somewhere like Spain but it would make a farce of things here.

We get an average 200 for our under 19's games we would get well over 500.

[harps1954]

We get an average 200 for our under 19's games we would get well over 500.

But what would be in it for the reserve sides. Winning it doesn't mean promotion. And surely you can't have a situation whereby players can switch between reserves/first-team at will. The reserve team would have to be registered with the FAI as a completely seperate club for administration purposes meaning that the transfer window rules would have to operate. If not, you could have a situation whereby the reserve team could play a stacked side in the FD to prevent a club gaining promotion. Picture this scenario (highly unlikely, but could happen).

It's the last game of the season. Rovers are struggling at the foot of the Premier Division. Waterford are sitting in top spot in the First Division, a point ahead of Rovers reserve side. Rovers first team are going to be relegated. However, if Rovers reserve side beat Waterford they will win the FD, meaning that they can't be promoted and meaning that their first-team can't be relegated. If no rules in place to prevent players freely moving between first-team and reserve team, Rovers could play all their first team players in the reserves to a) prevent Waterford from getting promoted and b) maintaining their own place in the Premier Division despite finishing last.

I said it in previous posts - the FAI are fast-tracking a one Division league. And it won't be a 16 team Premier. It will be 10 or 12 teams because slowly but surely they are killing the First Division. We are already without two clubs next year, so we have only six guaranteed teams in the First Division. And that Galway FC thing still seems as far away as ever.

Someone said earlier to put everyone into the one Division for a year to decide make-up of league in 2015 and this will give a year to get Junior / Intermediate clubs time to come on board for the FD for 2015. However, we have known for a full year that there was only going to be one club in Galway in 2014 and that there would be a vacancy in the FD for the 2014 season. What have the FAI done to bring in a new club or two since then? **** all.

The LOI ran with a one Division league in this country for 60 odd years. After almost 30 years of a two tier system, it's fair to say that the League has gone backwards during that time (not really because of the two tier system to be fair). However, the product has got worse because Ireland doesn't have the players to support a 22 team senior league.

In the 30 years of the League of Ireland with a two tier league, we have seen all the following come and go:

St. Francis
St. James Gate
Newcastlewest
Monaghan United
Galway United
Dublin City / Home Farm Fingal / Home Farm Everton
Sporting Fingal
Kilkenny City
Kildare County
Derry City (only to be reborn with no debts)
Cork City (only to be reborn with no debts)

and now
Mervue United
Salthill Devon

I'm sure I've missed out on one or two as well.

How many of the above were founder members of the First Divison?

I've also said it before - Waterford United, Finn Harps, Athlone Town and Longford Town all have a lot to offer senior football in this country. All were in the First Division this season and all (bar Longford) were in the League before the First Division was formed. These four, along with the 12 clubs in the Premier Division, would make for a decent one-tier League of Ireland. All right, there would be no relegation. But the league survived for 60 years in this country without relegation. Dead rubber matches. I don't subscribe to that theory. Are you trying to tell me that a Harps team sitting in 10th or 11th place in a one-tier league wouldn't want to beat a Derry or Sligo team pushing for the title? Or a Waterford team trying to do the same to Cork? Try watching the lower reaches of the First Division for dead rubber games.

The League of Ireland it more or less a one team league at the moment in the eyes of the FAI and the media (and, I should add, in the eyes of many supporters of Premier Division teams).

There's many things wrong with the League of Ireland. Putting reserve teams into the First Division will make it worse. You would be better off with one Division trying to keep 16 teams alive in this country without killing off some more to add to the list above. Because, like it or not, that is what is happening.

[Bawnville Hoop]

Division 1 clubs are there for a reason, they are not good enough for the premier. Making one league will have a severe hit on the top league of Ireland clubs. i.e 2 home games against Bohemians or 1 against Bohemians and 1 against Cobh Ramblers. 4 figure difference in the attendance there.

The 1st division will act like the A Championship. Reserve team clubs have no impact on promotion or playoffs. If a Shamrock Rovers reserve team finished first whoever was second effectively finishes 'first' if they can be promoted.

I know I said it was a good idea at first but I meant it as the alternative to keep a first division.

[harps1954]

Division 1 clubs are there for a reason, they are not good enough for the premier. Making one league will have a severe hit on the top league of Ireland clubs. i.e 2 home games against Bohemians or 1 against Bohemians and 1 against Cobh Ramblers. 4 figure difference in the attendance there.

Works the other way too. Instead of Cobh having two home games against Wexford, they will have one against Wexford and one against Shamrock Rovers. Huge difference there too from a Cobh point of view.

Division 1 clubs are there for a reason - they are not good enough for the premier. There's clubs in the premier that aren't good enough to be there (Shels, Bray and Bohs have all been poor this season and Waterford, Longford and Athlone would probably have done as well as the three mentioned). Where do you draw the line at who is good enough and who isn't?

[harps1954]

The Genesis Report into the running of the League of Ireland recommended the 'A' League and two Divisions of 10 teams each. Just five our six years later, the FAI has disregarded the 'A' League and the 10 team Premier Division lasted two or three years.

The two Divisions should be run in a similar fashion. However, we have one Division that plays teams three times each while another plays each other four times each. We had 20 senior clubs in Ireland this year, but we had the farcical situation of one league having 12 teams and another having 8 teams. Only in Ireland would we have something like this. If there is 20 senior teams, we should have two leagues of 10 teams each. Who cares if everyone plays one another 4 times. How do you solve this - simple, have more teams in a Division. If this means a 16 team top flight (playing 30 games) so be it and bring back the 'A' League.

[Bawnville Hoop]

Works the other way too. Instead of Cobh having two home games against Wexford, they will have one against Wexford and one against Shamrock Rovers. Huge difference there too from a Cobh point of view.

Division 1 clubs are there for a reason - they are not good enough for the premier. There's clubs in the premier that aren't good enough to be there (Shels, Bray and Bohs have all been poor this season and Waterford, Longford and Athlone would probably have done as well as the three mentioned). Where do you draw the line at who is good enough and who isn't?

Cobh shouldn't be dragging down premier division clubs revenue, they need to be promoted like every team in a lower division across the world.

The line is drawn by the team who finishes top of the 1st division and the team finishing last in the premier. Athlone walked the league and Roddy admitted he'll need to improve the squad by a long margin to stand any chance of competing in the premier division.

[adamd164]

Given the FAI's statement confirming that Mervue will definitely not be in next year's premier, I really hope Longford can do us all a favour, turn this around and relegate Bray.

[gufcfan]

Pure nonsense.

Care to make a point instead of being ignorant?

[Trainee]

MNS said FAI confirmed if Mervue beat Longford and qualify for playoff final, The playoff final wont be going ahead

[Darklordsbane]

Typical, Pat Devlin trying to pull another rabbit out of the hat!!!!
nothing of course to do with him being mates with all the Fai (wasn't he on the staff a few years ago with Brian Kerr or Steve Staunton,)
Come on De Town beat Mervue and Bray that way the playoff will work as it was intended not the farce that will be caused by a Mervue victory,
I think it's a disgrace that even if Mervue beat Longford (which well they might) they will not be allowed into the playoff,
if the Fai had any balls they would have voided the Mervue points once the weren't 1st or 2nd in the league and given the playoff birth to Waterford, at least that way both teams would have had something to play for,
This now will (I believe) mean Mervue will be even more fired up for the 2nd leg on Friday to stick it to the Fai

[legendz]

This old nugget has arisen again. Rumour has it that some of the top premier sides are going to put a second team into the first division. Thoughts?
Are there many premier clubs who would field a second team? Premier clubs wanted the A championship scrapped a few years ago due to costs.

I could only see about 3 or 4 clubs at most fielding a B team. It would offer a solution for some clubs who want to develop players out of the U19 squad. B teams, and even C teams, play in other levels of the game. I wouldn't be against the idea. If it does happen, it'll send out a signal the FAI want two tiers as opposed to one. While I'm not against a one tier premier division, it is important that there is a level between U19 and premier.

[nigel-harps1954]

Cobh shouldn't be dragging down premier division clubs revenue, they need to be promoted like every team in a lower division across the world.

Absolute pile of sh!te. By your logic we're better off letting a club rot in the First Division than drag down the revenue of a top Premier side? Disgraceful attitude for a League of Ireland fan to have, particularly that of a Shamrock Rovers fan who were bailed out by other clubs not too long ago.
I recall a collection done by Harps fans for Rovers when they almost went to the wall about 10 years ago. I'd be fairly certain there wouldn't be a quarter of that money raised had we all known the high and mighty attitude the Rovers fans would be having in the future.
You should be thoroughly ashamed.

[NeverFeltBetter]

MNS said FAI confirmed if Mervue beat Longford and qualify for playoff final, The playoff final wont be going ahead

If FAI had actual balls they would have refused Mervue access to the play-off structure. Too cowardly for that of course, and just hoping the Galway club don't continue to make them look bad now.

[TheBoss]

I believe that Mervue have grounds to appeal and will win.

As far as I know the association can not change the rules during the season. The rules at start of the season must be adhered to as all teams have signed the participation agreement.

I remember in Georgia, the league changed the rules near the end of the season, which meant that Rustavi won the league but Zestafoni appealed it and were successful in overturning the decision.

[gufc2000]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/daniel-mcdonnell-mervue-could-land-fai-in-mess-29676374.html

McDonnell fairly sticking it to the FAI with this article. Good on him.

[gufc2000]

Typical, Pat Devlin trying to pull another rabbit out of the hat!!!!
nothing of course to do with him being mates with all the Fai (wasn't he on the staff a few years ago with Brian Kerr or Steve Staunton,)
Come on De Town beat Mervue and Bray that way the playoff will work as it was intended not the farce that will be caused by a Mervue victory,
I think it's a disgrace that even if Mervue beat Longford (which well they might) they will not be allowed into the playoff,
if the Fai had any balls they would have voided the Mervue points once the weren't 1st or 2nd in the league and given the playoff birth to Waterford, at least that way both teams would have had something to play for,
This now will (I believe) mean Mervue will be even more fired up for the 2nd leg on Friday to stick it to the Fai
It's hardly Pat Devlin's doing now in fairness, very petty excuse.

[Macy]

If FAI had actual balls they would have refused Mervue access to the play-off structure. Too cowardly for that of course, and just hoping the Galway club don't continue to make them look bad now.
It suits the FAI, why would they do the right thing? Whoever ends up in the playoff spot, there'd be question marks about whether they'd survive the relegation. The FAI dodge this bullet if Mervue win the play off with Town. You could also say that if Mervue were committed to Galway FC, they'd have withdrawn themselves and let Waterford into the play off.


I believe that Mervue have grounds to appeal and will win.
The FAI will just use licencing to refuse entry to the premier.

[Longfordian]

I believe that Mervue have grounds to appeal and will win.

As far as I know the association can not change the rules during the season. The rules at start of the season must be adhered to as all teams have signed the participation agreement.

I remember in Georgia, the league changed the rules near the end of the season, which meant that Rustavi won the league but Zestafoni appealed it and were successful in overturning the decision.

Assuming that the powers that be in Mervue would be willing to appeal any such decision and potentially put some noses out of joint in Abbotstown. The players and manager want to play LOI but it seems the committee don't.

[MiniMourinho]

Mervue may get promoted on merit. But can the premier division afford to have another UCD in terms of finances? It would potentially de-stable a lot of teams finances in the premier division. I dont see how Mervue are better off than the Monaghan promotion scenario. Look how that ended.

[Mr A]

Woah- that's a big leap. Monaghan went on a spending spree on the back of sponsorship that didn't materialise. There's no reason to say Mervue would do the same. There hasn't been so much as a rumour of financial issues with them since they entered the league.

And if a premier club is destabilised by Mervue replacing Bray then they're probably screwed anyhow.

[osarusan]

Mervue may get promoted on merit. But can the premier division afford to have another UCD in terms of finances? It would potentially de-stable a lot of teams finances in the premier division.

Silly comment. How their support and appeal (or lack thereof) affects other teams' home attendances is no concern of theirs. You can't (or shouldn't, at least) be looking to promote teams based on that criterion.

[Darklordsbane]

Good man Nigel,