Republic of Ireland V Sweden - Friday, 6th September 2013 - World Cup 2014 Qualifier

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except it'll be nothing to do with that when it eventually gets binned off.
Plus thought you'd "retired from the internet" ??
:rolleyes:

[bennocelt]

I don't agree with Never Felt Better at all. I've seen Eastern European minnows play much better than Sweden. I honestly don't think I have ever seen an international match so lacking even one midfielder on either team capable of doing the midfield basics right. Larsson impressed me in the second half, but I think they just twigged after 30 minutes or so that we had nothing but long balls to offer.

Ha I agree with you Stutts:D Didnt see a whole lot in that Swedish team either, they beat Ireland easy enough without even going into first gear (if they have that ability)

[DannyInvincible]

Just been watching player interviews as well as the studio analysis from RTÉ.ie and thought the sentiment expressed by Robbie from around 02:19 to be worrying: http://www.rte.ie/sport/player/813/472803/

Tony O'Donoghue asks could we have varied the tactics when required but Robbie openly admits that we didn't/don't have an alternative approach to "feeding off scraps" and "try[ing] to get the second balls". Simply put, "that's the way we play... We only know one way". I suppose it shouldn't really come as a surprise - it was obvious we had no alternative to offer - but I don't think it's too much to expect Trap to have some sort of plan B up his sleeve when the plan A is so clearly taking us nowhere.

[DannyInvincible]

1. Concorde Serious overtures should be made to the IFA, by the FAI.

Why should the IFA and their fans be expected to voluntarily give up their history and identity by subsuming their side into ours? Would we or the FAI, on the other hand, be happy to give up our history and identity to be subsumed into the IFA?

[NeverFeltBetter]

The only way we'll have an All-Ireland team and league is if the country is re-united. So, you know, lets not bust out Ireland's Call just yet.

It really is pointless talking about it. The IFA would never, in a million years, go for the idea.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Why should the IFA and their fans be expected to voluntarily give up their history and identity by subsuming their side into ours? Would we or the FAI, on the other hand, be happy to give up our history and identity to be subsumed into the IFA?As if we (or they) should be so 'lucky'.Regardless of what happens in the next decade, both/any future 'united' team face a bleak future...

[third policeman]

Why should the IFA and their fans be expected to voluntarily give up their history and identity by subsuming their side into ours? Would we or the FAI, on the other hand, be happy to give up our history and identity to be subsumed into the IFA?

But our histories already overlap. The FAI broke away from the IFA and so many players turned out for both Associations in the post war decades. The future means more than the past in any case and on current evidence both teams can only view that with trepidation. It's not guaranteed to make a huge difference, but I would like to see it and surprisingly so would many IFA international over the years. What's fundamentally unhealthy about our footballing divisions at the moment is that they are increasingly sectarian and bitter. In the North today the respective shirts have become emblems of sectarian identity. Rugby, cricket, boxing and other sports have proved that sport can straddle political division and can bring people from two states and different traditions together behind a common cause that accommodates and respects their respective identities.

[osarusan]

Please, not this **** again.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Or instead of whining, just ignore the post...
;)

[Eminence Grise]

But our histories already overlap. The FAI broke away from the IFA and so many players turned out for both Associations in the post war decades. The future means more than the past in any case and on current evidence both teams can only view that with trepidation. It's not guaranteed to make a huge difference, but I would like to see it and surprisingly so would many IFA international over the years. What's fundamentally unhealthy about our footballing divisions at the moment is that they are increasingly sectarian and bitter. In the North today the respective shirts have become emblems of sectarian identity. Rugby, cricket, boxing and other sports have proved that sport can straddle political division and can bring people from two states and different traditions together behind a common cause that accommodates and respects their respective identities.

I think I understand this.

Is it about a bicycle?

[DannyInvincible]

But our histories already overlap. The FAI broke away from the IFA and so many players turned out for both Associations in the post war decades. The future means more than the past in any case and on current evidence both teams can only view that with trepidation. It's not guaranteed to make a huge difference, but I would like to see it and surprisingly so would many IFA international over the years. What's fundamentally unhealthy about our footballing divisions at the moment is that they are increasingly sectarian and bitter. In the North today the respective shirts have become emblems of sectarian identity. Rugby, cricket, boxing and other sports have proved that sport can straddle political division and can bring people from two states and different traditions together behind a common cause that accommodates and respects their respective identities.

The FAI were initially established with the intention of replacing the IFA as the island's association but were only granted admission to FIFA based upon the 26-county jurisdiction of the Irish Free State.

Anyhow, even if it was legally possible, which it isn't, in accordance with the present governing regulations, who would budge and relinquish the privilege of official succession?

[Charlie Darwin]

This change the manager lark is typical home nations media fodder.... if it's not sacking the manager it's manager wants a new contract e.g. Coleman at Wales, feck do u think Coleman should be rewarded for losing to Macedonia last night? But I digress....
Coleman is a bit of a special case. He basically admitted he wouldn't contemplate playing his best player in a must-win World Cup qualifier in order to foster a good relationship with the player's club. He's a complete and utter patsy. Of all the criticisms you could level at Trap, bending to clubs' interests isn't one of them.

[DannyInvincible]

Coleman is a bit of a special case. He basically admitted he wouldn't contemplate playing his best player in a must-win World Cup qualifier in order to foster a good relationship with the player's club. He's a complete and utter patsy. Of all the criticisms you could level at Trap, bending to clubs' interests isn't one of them.

Just reading the transcript of Coleman's post-Macedonia press conference: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/chris-coleman-defensive-over-gareth-5851388

It's extraordinarily hostile and arrogant.

[mark12345]

Mark, read what I wrote. You don't need to daydream about having an all-Ireland team in 20 years time. You have one already.

Oh yeah right. My mistake. That was the reserves playing against Portugal at Windsor Park on Friday night.

[mark12345]

Eh I dunno. Let me think now. Maybe because we have an all Ireland team in Rugby and Boxing and one or two smaller sports I believe. Good folk all of them and able to get on with one another like brothers. And much better teams for it. But who am I to have crazy notions like the soccer lads joining forces.

[mark12345]

Has Trap organised every other team he has managed in such restrictive and uninventive fashion or is it just ourselves he sees as uniquely limited so as to necessitate it? It will be interesting to see how he approaches Tuesday night.

Just heard interviews with Giles, Brady, Dunphy and the one with Robbie. Excellent points made by the pundits and echoed in his own way by Robbie who said in not so many words that the team is set out to play the long ball game. The lads in the studio mentioned Trap winning leagues and titles with Juventus, Bayern Munich and also coaching Italy. But Giles made a very good point in that you have to work with the players you have, even if they are sub standard like our lads. In that respect Trap has been an abysmal failure because he has failed to coach the players to play the proper game (a la Italy, Juve, Bayern). Sure, it would have been work for him to do it, hard work, but it appears he never even gave it a try. So at the end of the day, you or I could have coached Juve, Bayern or Italy and done well with those exceptional players. But the real acid test of a coach is what he can do with inferior players. Ireland are going to have to knuckle down and change their game 180 degrees to emulate the better teams of Europe. It has to happen and if we spend two / three years in the wilderness in the process so be it. But it has to happen. It does produce results - just look at Belgium.

[DannyInvincible]

Eh I dunno. Let me think now. Maybe because we have an all Ireland team in Rugby and Boxing and one or two smaller sports I believe. Good folk all of them and able to get on with one another like brothers.

Does the unionist tradition in Ireland really enjoy that much recognition by the IRFU though?


And much better teams for it.

How can you say with any certainty? It's impossible to say whether those teams/sports are better for it or not as you have nothing in terms of "split" teams against which to measure their success or lack thereof.


But who am I to have crazy notions like the soccer lads joining forces.

You're essentially asking another association to disband and agree to fall under your fantasy umbrella. It's all fine and dandy for some, but can't you see why that might be problematic for others who hold dear their association's history and tradition? It's both ignorant and inflammatory in that sense. If they'd rather not dilute or give up their identity, let them be; why troll them, especially when we have an all-island side ourselves and all our nationals, irrespective of where on the island they have been born, are fully entitled to play for us if they so wish?

[Gather round]

Eh I dunno. Let me think now. Maybe because we have an all Ireland team in Rugby and Boxing and one or two smaller sports I believe. Good folk all of them and able to get on with one another like brothers. And much better teams for it. But who am I to have crazy notions like the soccer lads joining forces

You're a bit behind the times Mark. Yes, there are also all-Ireland teams in (among others) rowing, table tennis, cycling, cricket and hockey. Yet NI's top performers in all of them play in British teams. That's not because they're unable to get on with their Southern brothers, it's that they're from a different country. NI's top boxers also take part in the Commonwealth Games.

Oh and spare us the witless sarcasm. If you want to be someone's reserve team and qualify more often, call England or Germany.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Huh??

Never mind 'witless', as opposed to the same GR 'point' being made pompously 'ad nauseum'...

[Grafter]

I find it a bit rich to see Steven Reid appointed to some sort of wise international sage by Independent Newspaper. The guy had an unfulfilled international career for one reason or another and (like Sadlier) really doesn't command authority in my view.
The day after Sweden game he was on front of Newspaper giving the lazy line "where are our world class players coming through?" 2 points to this in my view:

A) We're in no different a position playerwise than we were in the past. Good players come through and step up in their own time eg. Who would have predicted Coleman? Who's to say Robbie Brady isn't developing into a top player etc It's just lazy to say "I can't see where our players are going to come from".

B) My second point is how the hell does Reid compose this article between the match ending at 9.30pm and print going to press that same night? Does he have a positive and negative article ready in advance depending on result? Even with a ghost writer....

[Charlie Darwin]

It takes **** all time to write an article, especially when it's ghost written. Reid takes 5-10 minutes to make his case to the journo who then vomits it onto a page. There's a shell written out beforehand since it's largely fairly predictable, and most of it can be written during the match. The Indo goes to press later than that, around 11-11.30 I think. They possibly even hold the press on the night of an international since that'll be a big part of their sales the next day.

[DannyInvincible]

The day after Sweden game he was on front of Newspaper giving the lazy line "where are our world class players coming through?" 2 points to this in my view:

A) We're in no different a position playerwise than we were in the past. Good players come through and step up in their own time eg. Who would have predicted Coleman? Who's to say Robbie Brady isn't developing into a top player etc It's just lazy to say "I can't see where our players are going to come from".

So, what's your point here exactly? Leave things the way they are, or largely to chance, in other words? Where are our top players going to come from? We have no infrastructure in place to ensure a certain stream of top-class talent coming through.

[Charlie Darwin]

I also find it slightly strange that a man who grew up in England is asking where our players are coming through. In no way am I diminishing the Irishness of the diaspora but we really can't rely on them forever - English clubs are struggling to produce English players, let alone Irish players.

[Grafter]

So, what's your point here exactly? Leave things the way they are, or largely to chance, in other words? Where are our top players going to come from? We have no infrastructure in place to ensure a certain stream of top-class talent coming through.

My point is that we are not that badly served at present and that once or twice every generation it has been proved that we produce a world class talent. Nobody can predict as Trap would say "the next future".

[mark12345]

A lot of bluster and banter here for a very simple idea which has worked for Rugby, Boxing and Cricket. It could work for football.

[mark12345]

Actually, no I don't want someone's reserve team. It was sarcasm on my part as you correctly point out. All I want is for all the players on the island to be brought together and put into one team and see what comes out of it. A damn site better than the Republic on their own or the North on their own could produce. More the merrier concept - you know. And come on down to the South, I'll buy you a drink and we can sit and watch a game or two and have a bit of fun. You might even like it.

[Charlie Darwin]

It's not an idea that has worked well for other sports because those sports have always been operated on an all-Ireland basis and, as Gather Round mentioned, many of the best still opt to represent the UK. There's no precedent for an ROI and NI team joining together in recent times.

And the point you're missing is that the NI team represents a distinct community and they seemingly don't want to subsume their identity into the ROI. Any pan-national football team would require both NI and ROI sacrifice their unique identity and I don't think either side is prepared to do that, especially when the carrot is only a marginally better football team that still won't qualify for many competitions.

[DannyInvincible]

All I want is for all the players on the island to be brought together and put into one team and see what comes out of it. A damn site better than the Republic on their own or the North on their own could produce. More the merrier concept - you know.

How would you respond to someone suggesting we should lump ourselves into a "British Isles"/UK team or some similar entity?


And come on down to the South, I'll buy you a drink and we can sit and watch a game or two and have a bit of fun. You might even like it.

I'm guessing this is directed at GR, which gives me a chuckle.

Where are you from yourself, Mark? Perhaps, it's you who'd be best advised taking yourself up to Belfast for a drink with the locals.

[DannyInvincible]

My point is that we are not that badly served at present and that once or twice every generation it has been proved that we produce a world class talent. Nobody can predict as Trap would say "the next future".

You've just admitted in another thread that we're permanently in the doldrums (http://foot.ie/threads/157804-Trappatoni-who-would-you-replace-him-with?p=1708269&viewfull=1#post1708269). Why do you think this is and how do you suggest we tackle this problem, assuming you see it as such? Or are you content enough to leave the "production" of world-class talent to chance rather than design? Why settle for one or two lucky bright sparks in a generation? We should be looking at what countries like Belgium or Croatia are doing right at the minute. Belgium put a plan of action in place a decade ago and are reaping the rewards now. The current Belgian "golden generation" is by no means a product of chance.

[Grafter]

You've just admitted in another thread that we're permanently in the doldrums (http://foot.ie/threads/157804-Trappatoni-who-would-you-replace-him-with?p=1708269&viewfull=1#post1708269). Why do you think this is and how do you suggest we tackle this problem, assuming you see it as such? Or are you content enough to leave the "production" of world-class talent to chance rather than design? Why settle for one or two lucky bright sparks in a generation? We should be looking at what countries like Belgium or Croatia are doing right at the minute. Belgium put a plan of action in place a decade ago and are reaping the rewards now. The current Belgian "golden generation" is by no means a product of chance.

Do Belgium and Croatia have to contend with the religion of GAA in most parishes (and increasingly rugby) for the hearts and minds of their youth?

[DannyInvincible]

I'm sure there are plenty of alternative distractions for Belgian and Croatian youth as well; basketball, handball, tennis, cycling, the PlayStation, whatever...

Are we going to blame the GAA and rugby for our problems now? Let's get on with it and take some responsibility.

[Grafter]

Hey look I know it is getting embarrassing that most of our better players now are either English, Scottish or NI born now.... I'd just question whether there's a genuine will or capability out there to change things....

[DannyInvincible]

Hey look I know it is getting embarrassing that most of our better players now are either English, Scottish or NI born now.... I'd just question whether there's a genuine will or capability out there to change things....

Of course there isn't. Which is why the future looks so grim and depressing. What have the FAI done since we were embarrassed by the products of long-term organisation at the Euros last year? In 2002, we were able to compete with Spain in the second round of the World Cup. Spain then put a comprehensive plan in place and, by the time we met again in 2012, they'd left us far behind and had moved on to another footballing planet. The lack of willingness, imagination and foresight for developmental change within the FAI is unfathomable despite the red lights flashing them in the face.

[mark12345]

How would you respond to someone suggesting we should lump ourselves into a "British Isles"/UK team or some similar entity?



I'm guessing this is directed at GR, which gives me a chuckle.

Where are you from yourself, Mark? Perhaps, it's you who'd be best advised taking yourself up to Belfast for a drink with the locals.

North or South. Drinks or on me. Everyone is welcome.

[gastric]

The difference between rugby and GAA in relation to football is that both are successful in their own right and are home based. For some perverse reason, a football player is only deemed successful when they are playing in England. This is comparing small ponds with a massive lake. This perverse view along with a weak LOI in terms of finance and a limited emphasis on technical ability among junior clubs is at the heart of our problems. There is no obvious solution, the only possible one might if somehow we had teams join the Scottish League which might provide a shot in the arm to Irish football.

[tricky_colour]

I'm sure there are plenty of alternative distractions for Belgian and Croatian youth as well; basketball, handball, tennis, cycling, the PlayStation, whatever...

Are we going to blame the GAA and rugby for our problems now? Let's get on with it and take some responsibility.

One point I would like to make is Seamus Coleman was originally a Gaelic footballer, so you could either blame them or thank them depending on how you see it. Are there others who could switch? Would they want? Would it be right to try and poach them?

[Stuttgart88]

The current Belgian "golden generation" is by no means a product of chance.

Glenn Moore of the Independent doesn't wholly agree!

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/eden-hazard-christian-benteke-and-marouane-fellaini-have-ensured-the-belgians-are-back--but-was-it-down-to-luck-or-good-planning-8799006.html


I think we develop very good players up to 15 or 16 and people like Niall Harrison are doing a great job with limited resources and limited time with his players. After 16 though its in the lap of the gods. We can plan and reconfigure all we like but basic economics are a hard hurdle to clear.

[barney]

You've just admitted in another thread that we're permanently in the doldrums (http://foot.ie/threads/157804-Trappatoni-who-would-you-replace-him-with?p=1708269&viewfull=1#post1708269). Why do you think this is and how do you suggest we tackle this problem, assuming you see it as such? Or are you content enough to leave the "production" of world-class talent to chance rather than design? Why settle for one or two lucky bright sparks in a generation? We should be looking at what countries like Belgium or Croatia are doing right at the minute. Belgium put a plan of action in place a decade ago and are reaping the rewards now. The current Belgian "golden generation" is by no means a product of chance.

What was the plan that the Belgians put in place?

[peadar1987]

What was the plan that the Belgians put in place?

As much as it pains me to link to the Daily Fail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2411916/A-BELGIAN-BLUEPRINT-Story-Michel-Sablon-changed-Belgium-team-today.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

So the same as people have been suggesting on here since the site was set up, youth, league and national side all pulling in the same direction, with strong and purposeful leadership from the top.

The chances of the FAI ever doing something that makes this much sense: zero.

[jbyrne]

tactics lost in translation...

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/marc-wilson-suggests-giovanni-trapattoni-s-plans-can-be-lost-in-translation-1.1520102

it cant help when the paid translator is on the pitch being interviewed at HT rather than in the dressing room. you couldnt make it up

[barney]

As much as it pains me to link to the Daily Fail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2411916/A-BELGIAN-BLUEPRINT-Story-Michel-Sablon-changed-Belgium-team-today.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

So the same as people have been suggesting on here since the site was set up, youth, league and national side all pulling in the same direction, with strong and purposeful leadership from the top.

The chances of the FAI ever doing something that makes this much sense: zero.

Thank you. Would love to read more about this. Must try and dig online for it. Will be interesting to see if this really has worked for the Belgians. Once in a while, countries like Belgium get a good generation of players. If they produce more over the next 10 years then I think they can undoubtedly point to what they've done.

Either way, at least they took some positive action.

[bennocelt]

Do Belgium and Croatia have to contend with the religion of GAA in most parishes (and increasingly rugby) for the hearts and minds of their youth?

They only play football in these countries, wow:confused:
I didnt know you had to have a lot of skill to play bog ball

[bennocelt]

Correct me if I am wrong but arent Belgian club teams doing well this season?

[osarusan]

Here's the line-up from 1991 against england at Wembley:


1 Patrick Bonner
2 Denis Irwin
3 Steve Staunton
4 David Anthony O'Leary
5 Kevin Moran
6 Andrew Townsend
7 Paul McGrath
8 Raymond Houghton
9 Niall Quinn
10 John William Aldridge
11 Kevin Sheedy

Substitutes

12 Anthony Cascarino
13 Christopher Hughton
14 John Sheridan
15 Alan McLoughlin
16 Gerald Peyton

One of the strngest teams we've ever had. Not in any way the result of any academy of root and branch reform of the setup.

For Ireland to be really good, we're always going to rely on an element of luck (like Belgium).

[peadar1987]

Here's the line-up from 1991 against england at Wembley:



One of the strngest teams we've ever had. Not in any way the result of any academy of root and branch reform of the setup.

For Ireland to be really good, we're always going to rely on an element of luck (like Belgium).

The difference is, now other countries are implementing root and branch reform. In 1990, football was a completely different game, and if we keep sitting around hoping for another crop of players like that just to emerge, we're going to be left behind.

That team was wonderful in its day, but would be played off the park by Spain 2008-2012.

[jbyrne]

That team was wonderful in its day, but would be played off the park by Spain 2008-2012.

i doubt it really. Jacks teams up until post wc 94 regularly competed brilliantly with the top teams in the world.
id say the current spain team would have felt they had been run over by a bus after 90 mins against that Irish '91 team

[barney]

Here's the line-up from 1991 against england at Wembley:



One of the strngest teams we've ever had. Not in any way the result of any academy of root and branch reform of the setup.

For Ireland to be really good, we're always going to rely on an element of luck (like Belgium).

Yeah twas a pretty strong team and you're right that it wasn't the result of anything Ireland did particularly right in it's approch to coaching.

That doesn't mean we should just sit on our hands and wait for a similar crop of players though. We are never going to be the best team in international football but what we should be obliged to do is give ourselves the best chance to get the best out of what we have. I don't believe that our approach currently does that (although someone on here might offer a counter-viewpoint).

I'm not someone who believes that we should just pass-pass-pass and that'll cure the world's ills. Stu made a good post earlier saying that there is room for mixing it up and alternative styles and I agree. A lot of the time the other night, we did hoof it and although Robbie and Long were never going to win it, we did pick up the second ball. However, some of the stuff the other night was heartbreaking and is rooted in how we teach people to play. We clearly don't teach about space and movement. To pass-pass-pass, it's not the fella on the ball who is the most important, it's the three or four players who should be giving him options. Any professional footballer worth his salt can pass the ball 5-10 yards but if he has no-one to pass to then he's screwed.

I saw Cox the other night looking for the ball from Coleman but he was tucked in behind two Swedish players. Rather than pull wide, where there was space and an angle for a pass, he stood behind the two Swedes shouting for the ball. I have no problem with Cox, quite like him in fact, but it was so dumb. Coleman had a 1% chance of pulling off that pass.

I also remember us getting a free kick and everyone just got in the box waiting for the inevitable long ball. Not a sinner on the wings. No-one had the inclination to pull wide and, if nothing else, pull a Swede with them to leave a bit more space in an overcrowded box. At least give them something to think about.

Watching those kids at half time also didn't fill me with any hope that we are trying to change things for the better. I'd love someone to come on and offer an alternative viewpoint on how we coach though because I'm just being a hurler on the ditch to an extent and don't coach kids so I'm making assumptions based on not a lot of evidence.

[Stuttgart88]

We're not going to change our style over night and you're right to say that a change to tikka takka is impossible. Mixing it up is the way to improve things. This needn't even be a tactical change as such, although a 3 man midfield might accommodate better ball players, improving retention etc.

Either way, the immediate solution is to have a midfielder who wants the ball and is always looking for it. The CBs and FBs can have someone to give it to, as will everyone. It becomes infectious and sets the tone. I said after Wembley that the lack of retention and consequent hoofball was almost all down to Whelan's inability to demand the ball and use it well. Using it well can also mean using it simply. Meyler isn't the answer. Green could partner McCarthy more effectively as per Stockholm, allowing McCarthy a bit more opportunity to be composed. I'm sure we've all seen that youtube highlights footage of Hoolahan against Georgia. That's what we need. Whelan just takes too much out of it. It's like slow ball from half-backs in rugby.

Trap doesn't even need to instruct the players to play more football. If he just picked a natural ball user we'd be better. Simple as.

Wilson into midfield, with McCarthy and Gibson could be an interesting midfield set up once Trap departs but that'd be too radical for now, and Gibson's absence is hurting us.

[shakermaker1982]

Playing the head height rule when all the lads join up for training camp would be my first recommendation. People might then learn the benefits of making movements off the ball.

If England lose to the Ukraine on Tuesday night they'll be going through the same soul searching as us on here. They have it after every major tournament and there is a great debate about how to fix things for 2 weeks and it's then forgotten about. WE (the FAI, fans, coaches etc) need to make sure something this issue doesn't disappear off the agenda. It's a bloody difficult task, maybe even impossible but if there is a way to improve our football team (at all levels) then the FAI need to ensure they are on the case.

[osarusan]

When I read wilson's comments about Trap wanting them to play more through the middle, it's annoying. Why pick Whelan then?