Republic of Ireland V Sweden - Friday, 6th September 2013 - World Cup 2014 Qualifier

[osarusan]

Y

That doesn't mean we should just sit on our hands and wait for a similar crop of players though. We are never going to be the best team in international football but what we should be obliged to do is give ourselves the best chance to get the best out of what we have. I don't believe that our approach currently does that (although someone on here might offer a counter-viewpoint).

Agree with this. We need to maximise the potential of all the resources available to us. This may not produce a greater number of top class players, but should produce a greater crop of second level players. With that, and a manager that can harness the resources most effectively, there's not much more we can do.

[mark12345]

Of course there isn't. Which is why the future looks so grim and depressing. What have the FAI done since we were embarrassed by the products of long-term organisation at the Euros last year? In 2002, we were able to compete with Spain in the second round of the World Cup. Spain then put a comprehensive plan in place and, by the time we met again in 2012, they'd left us far behind and had moved on to another footballing planet. The lack of willingness, imagination and foresight for developmental change within the FAI is unfathomable despite the red lights flashing them in the face.

Excellent point. The FAI need to come out and say what their plans are to correct the current situation.

[mark12345]

The difference between rugby and GAA in relation to football is that both are successful in their own right and are home based. For some perverse reason, a football player is only deemed successful when they are playing in England. This is comparing small ponds with a massive lake. This perverse view along with a weak LOI in terms of finance and a limited emphasis on technical ability among junior clubs is at the heart of our problems. There is no obvious solution, the only possible one might if somehow we had teams join the Scottish League which might provide a shot in the arm to Irish football.


I think you're on the right track Gastric. A multi national competition with the Scots, Welsh, lower league English and Sweden, Denmark, Finland, as well as ourselves is the way to go, I would suggest. I know this was discussed a few years back but never came to pass. Our domestic clubs are a million miles away from qualifying for the Champions League, so let's provide a stepping stone towards that progress with a competition such as that described above. There has to be something other than the year in year out LOI which does little to improve our standards.

[SwanVsDalton]

I think you're on the right track Gastric. A multi national competition with the Scots, Welsh, lower league English and Sweden, Denmark, Finland, as well as ourselves is the way to go, I would suggest. I know this was discussed a few years back but never came to pass. Our domestic clubs are a million miles away from qualifying for the Champions League, so let's provide a stepping stone towards that progress with a competition such as that described above. There has to be something other than the year in year out LOI which does little to improve our standards.

That suggestion is distasteful in the extreme to the majority of actual fans of clubs mooted and UEFA would never let it happen anyway.

If LOI standards are so bad, how come there's more LOI reared players in the top ranks, and Irish squad, than ever before? It may have something to do with the globalisation of the English league playing pool, but it's also something to do with local club coaches doing a fairly good job. I'd also say the Champions League - essentially the high-rollers roulette table in the FIFA casino - isn't a realistic measure of how viable a domestic league is or how successful an international team becomes.

There's no reason this root-and-branch reform of the game in Ireland - whether it involves pyramid structures, wholesale importation of coaches or handing out passports to Paddy Suarez et al - would be hindered by a functioning domestic league. There's a few reasons to suspect it would be far more damaged by a North Atlantic Premier League (NAPL).

Far simpler would be to focus on the direction of grassroots football and for people to stop (for goodness sake) viewing the LOI as some barometer of failure and use it as an actual asset in player development.

[Stuttgart88]

Excellent point. The FAI need to come out and say what their plans are to correct the current situation.

The FAI has a good technical plan in place and regional centres etc. but (a) resources are thin (b) the junior clubs ands schools leagues often have other agendas (c) the governance workings of the FAI prevent full ownership of the game and allow these self-interested factions to continue unchallenged, and (d) actual "touch time" with the players is low. Also notwithstanding any argument about the standard of the LOI the reality is that the lack of a fully professional league offering anything other than 40-week contracts to many players, even the best ones, means we'll always lose large numbers of players to England. If they leave at 16 or so it means the FAI is powerless over their continued development.

[DannyInvincible]

North or South. Drinks or on me. Everyone is welcome.

How would you go about convincing unwilling OWCers? Would you entertain someone suggesting we should join a fantasy "British Isles" entity?


One point I would like to make is Seamus Coleman was originally a Gaelic footballer, so you could either blame them or thank them depending on how you see it. Are there others who could switch? Would they want? Would it be right to try and poach them?

Poach them? From voluntary/amateur GAA clubs? :confused:

It's not as if Séamie never played football/association football/soccer in the early period of his life. He played for St. Catherine's in Killybegs before impressing in a pre-season friendly against Sligo and signing for them.


Glenn Moore of the Independent doesn't wholly agree!

[url]http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/eden-hazard-christian-benteke-and-marouane-fellaini-have-ensured-the-belgians-are-back--but-was-it-down-to-luck-or-good-planning-8799006.html[/url

I actually think he bolsters the notion that the current generation are products of design:


However, there are elements of Belgium's rise that do tally with Dyke's philosophy. A decade ago the Belgian FA delivered a blueprint to clubs on player development which, according to their FA, most have followed. The FA demanded better coaching qualifications and, presumably influenced by the Dutch, determined that national sides at all age-groups should play a high-tempo 4-3-3.

They also pressed, as will Dyke, for improved player release for junior tournaments. This led to a place in the last four of both the European Under-17 finals and Under-21 finals in 2007, and another semi-final with an Under-23 team at the 2008 Beijing Olympics.

It has long been the view of the FA that tournament experience at a young age is hugely beneficial to players development. Many of the current stars were in these teams. In Belgium's case it also helps the national side bond. Fellaini told Esquire: "We have played together for a long time. A lot of us went to the Olympics in Beijing, stayed together in the village, when we were 18, 19, 20, 21, so we got to know each other very well."

By the way, Stutts, I wonder if David Kelly was reading the forum last week. I sensed a lot of bitterness reserved for internet forum-users in his latest piece on Trap's potential replacement: http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/same-old-story-needs-to-have-a-different-ending-29563509.html


Needless to say, the only exotic names being tossed into the managerial race will probably be Dutch, cheap at the price and beloved of self-anointed pseudo intellectuals who spend every waking hour on the internet.

... And why should Irish football swoon at [René Meulensteen] just because faux intellectual soccer types are his cheerleaders?

And didn't the silly fool forget to mention Co Adriaanse!?

[geysir]

It's irrelevant how many waking and sleeping hours I spend on the internet, I would need to have a lobotomy but left with just enough brainpower to use a thesaurus software application which activates random, peculiar and little used alternative words, to be on a par with David effin Kelly.

Probably it's insulting to people who have had lobotomies to associate them with David Kelly.
I do apologise.

[Stuttgart88]

I'd still like Kelly to explain why not paying in Tibilisi was such a treacherous and cowardly act.

Was "faux intellectual soccer types" one or two insults? The way I read it the term "soccer type" was a dig in its own right.

And anyway, I thought Danny was a genuine intellectual.

[EAFC_rdfl]

I hope he reads that :)

[tetsujin1979]

I'd still like Kelly to explain why not paying in Tibilisi was such a treacherous and cowardly act.

Was "faux intellectual soccer types" one or two insults? The way I read it the term "soccer type" was a dig in its own right.

And anyway, I thought Danny was a genuine intellectual.I took offence at the implication I'm a faux intellectual.

[gastric]

That suggestion is distasteful in the extreme to the majority of actual fans of clubs mooted and UEFA would never let it happen anyway.

If LOI standards are so bad, how come there's more LOI reared players in the top ranks, and Irish squad, than ever before? It may have something to do with the globalisation of the English league playing pool, but it's also something to do with local club coaches doing a fairly good job. I'd also say the Champions League - essentially the high-rollers roulette table in the FIFA casino - isn't a realistic measure of how viable a domestic league is or how successful an international team becomes.

There's no reason this root-and-branch reform of the game in Ireland - whether it involves pyramid structures, wholesale importation of coaches or handing out passports to Paddy Suarez et al - would be hindered by a functioning domestic league. There's a few reasons to suspect it would be far more damaged by a North Atlantic Premier League (NAPL).

Far simpler would be to focus on the direction of grassroots football and for people to stop (for goodness sake) viewing the LOI as some barometer of failure and use it as an actual asset in player development.

While my comments might seem distasteful, no offence was meant by them. I am just trying to work out how best we can develop Irish talent, nurture them and offer them the opportunity to stay in Irish football as long as possible keeping in mind that big money will always be available over the pond. My point was that the LOI needs a shot in the arm and that having teams join the Scottish League might be it. While it may not be acceptable to many, I can't think of any other way of developing Irish football in the medium term, but I am very happy to hear others' ideas.
In regards to the comment about UEFA not letting such a proposal happen, Danny posted a link a while ago indicating that UEFA is now seriously considering such proposals which is a massive change in attitude.

[Closed Account 2]

Some people are saying UEFA might have left the door open on this from a legal point of view since they've allowed a joint Benelux women's league. I know there is serious talk of a Russian-Ukrainian joint league, and a mooted ex Yugoslavian combined league, though the latter is still some way off.

I d agree with Mark and Gastric though that something drastic such as a merger needs to happen, the domestic game hasn't really kicked on, this year's European results were shocking and not ever having a team in the CL group stage is a massive indictment of it.

[kennedmc]

Two things we need to do above all else:
1. Appoint a coach who can get more than the sum of its parts out of the national team
2. Focus on developing technique of ALL our young players aged between 8 and 14 - it's about raising the average technical standard of all our club players.


Forget about tactics and systems, keeping player in the national league, all our national teams playing the same system, blaming the English game etc.


no. 1 is something that can be fixed in the short term
number 2 will take longer but needs the FAI, school boy clubs etc all on the same page I doubt they can see past their own agendas and will probably bring out some water downed bullsh!t plan that looks good in a press release

[barney]

Two things we need to do above all else:
1. Appoint a coach who can get more than the sum of its parts out of the national team
2. Focus on developing technique of ALL our young players aged between 8 and 14 - it's about raising the average technical standard of all our club players.


Forget about tactics and systems, keeping player in the national league, all our national teams playing the same system, blaming the English game etc.


no. 1 is something that can be fixed in the short term
number 2 will take longer but needs the FAI, school boy clubs etc all on the same page I doubt they can see past their own agendas and will probably bring out some water downed bullsh!t plan that looks good in a press release

To be fair though, your post is something no one can disagree with but that doesn't really say much at all.

There is never a guarantee on a coach either. Mourinho is arguably the greatest manager in the world yet you wouldn't say he had Madrid playing to more than the sum of its parts last year.

[kennedmc]

To be fair though, your post is something no one can disagree with but that doesn't really say much at all.

There is never a guarantee on a coach either. Mourinho is arguably the greatest manager in the world yet you wouldn't say he had Madrid playing to more than the sum of its parts last year.

I'm not a huge fan of Martin O'Neill as a club manager but I think he would a great job as Ireland manager.

The other point I'm making is because we have limited resources, the only thing we should focus on is developing the technique of young players from 8-14. We need a national blueprint. It's very easy to do a little bit of everthing and nothing actually gets done or its all so watered down there is no impact.

We don't need schools of excellence, wasting money on tactical coaches to get all our youth team playing the one way etc.

I want to see 12 year olds who are comfortable with the ball at the their feet can do the basics really well and want to pass the football.

[Yard of Pace]

The other point I'm making is because we have limited resources, the only thing we should focus on is developing the technique of young players from 8-14. We need a national blueprint. .

When I was that age, I was going to Joey's in Sallynoggin for their "Saturday Morning Programme". All skills, technique, small games, passing etc. This was the late 80s early 90s. It was fantastic.

Does coaching like that not go on anymore? I haven't been involved with or seen any kids coaching for 20 years or so. And the only player I can think of that came from St. Joseph's to international level is the rather agricultural Paul McShane. And possibly Alan O'Brien, currently residing in the "where is he now?" file.

[barney]

I'm not a huge fan of Martin O'Neill as a club manager but I think he would a great job as Ireland manager.

The other point I'm making is because we have limited resources, the only thing we should focus on is developing the technique of young players from 8-14. We need a national blueprint. It's very easy to do a little bit of everthing and nothing actually gets done or its all so watered down there is no impact.

We don't need schools of excellence, wasting money on tactical coaches to get all our youth team playing the one way etc.

I want to see 12 year olds who are comfortable with the ball at the their feet can do the basics really well and want to pass the football.

Not a fan of O'Neill either but I suppose I haven't seen a better suggestion so far.

What would that look like though? What would we do to make the kids better? I saw a post that said that Spain have a massive amount of qualified coaches (1 for every 17 players) whereas England have 1 for every 800 (no doubt we'd be even worse). Are qualified coaches the way to go?

I often hear people say, "stop kids playing competitively until they are 12-14. Get them focussed on learing technique." Is that the way? My question would be why can't they do both. Is hoofball going to triumph over tikka-takka (I'm using these absolute terms in the absence of better ones) until kids reach a certain age? If so, why? I think competition is healthy for kids and I reckon if we removed it, it would be cited as a reason for us not having a winning mentality at some stage.

One that seems like a no-brainer to me is having kids play on full sized pitches. Can anyone offer an argument in favour of that or at the very least provide rationale why it hasn't changed? To me, it's absolutely brainless having an 11 year old kid stand in a full sized goal and a bunch of other 11 year olds running the full length of a proper pitch.

[Stuttgart88]

barney, I have posted a link to this guy's website before but I think it's great reading. There's a lot of legacy information on the site that you may have to go searching for. Stuff on his philosophy, other countries' methods, dysfunctional politics at schoolboy level etc.

http://www.thecoachdiary.com/about/

Also, by all accounts leagues like the NDSL have turned the traditional approach upside down and are reaping great rewards in terms of producing technical players. South Dublin is still resisting change I believe, all down to political inertia.


I was at 2 seminars on this topic recently (December in London and March in Dublin, the latter hosted by the coach diary guy) and what I took from it was that there IS a sizeable and growing contingent of "enlightened" coaches in Ireland eager to change the coaching ethos. I suspect that in time their views will prevail.

[SwanVsDalton]

While my comments might seem distasteful, no offence was meant by them. I am just trying to work out how best we can develop Irish talent, nurture them and offer them the opportunity to stay in Irish football as long as possible keeping in mind that big money will always be available over the pond. My point was that the LOI needs a shot in the arm and that having teams join the Scottish League might be it. While it may not be acceptable to many, I can't think of any other way of developing Irish football in the medium term, but I am very happy to hear others' ideas.

No offence was taken. Just pointing out such a concept would be anathema to the people with the biggest stake - actual club fans.

I'm not sure what the big deal is about 'big money across the pond'. Ireland could join forces with however number of international small fry they want and the EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga et al will still cherry pick the best they have to offer.

People then say, well, these other leagues are doing a better job of developing players. But tell that to David Forde, Seamus Coleman, James McClean, Wes Hoolahan, Connor Sammon, Shane Long etc etc. Or particularly look at someone like Keith Fahey whose career only took off after he returned to the LOI. Considering how under resourced and, quite frankly, ignored the LOI has been, it's not doing such a bad job of developing decent players.

Could it better? Sure. Of course. But why does that have to involve pie-in-the-sky amalgamations instead of focusing on tangible medium-term goals, like, a marketing budget, improved facilities, a proper pyramid and co-operations between domestic and junior football? To my view those are more realistic, achievable and desirable aims than the North Atlantic Premier League.


In regards to the comment about UEFA not letting such a proposal happen, Danny posted a link a while ago indicating that UEFA is now seriously considering such proposals which is a massive change in attitude.


Some people are saying UEFA might have left the door open on this from a legal point of view since they've allowed a joint Benelux women's league. I know there is serious talk of a Russian-Ukrainian joint league, and a mooted ex Yugoslavian combined league, though the latter is still some way off.

I saw the link posted but haven't had a chance to look at it (assume it's a few pages back?). However I'll believe it when I see it. The women's game is different for obvious reasons. For UEFA to make leagues of this nature happen it would take buy-in from hundreds of clubs, junior clubs, FA representatives and getting on to millions of fans. It's just not realistic.

Individual FAs would have kittens at the prospect of their autonomy being threatened, not to mention having to split places in Europe. How could CSKA, Zenit and Spartak feel about having to compete with Shakhtar for Champions League places. Never mind a club like Dynamo Kiev, a powerful dynasty in the Ukraine who - if it happened tomorrow - would be blown out of the water in such an arrangement.

Big clubs in small ponds like to keep it that way. It would be very, very difficult for relevant FAs and UEFA to overcome these obstacles, even if they really, really, really wanted to (and I'm not convinced they are).


I d agree with Mark and Gastric though that something drastic such as a merger needs to happen, the domestic game hasn't really kicked on, this year's European results were shocking and not ever having a team in the CL group stage is a massive indictment of it.

A massive indictment? On what planet do clubs with an average of less than 2,000 fans, crumbling stadia and budgets cut to the bone get to the group stages of the Champions League?

Moreover since when was that a relevant or reasonable measure. Does a sugar-daddied Romanian or Greek team making the group stage reflect on the quality of their league or national team? Does an English or German team full of foreigners winning the thing mean anything?

Those looking at drastic measures need to chill it down a bit. It's obvious Irish football needs a reform - top to bottom - but instead of going through the decades-in-the-making legal equivalent of shoving a camel through the needle's eye by forming a joint North Atlantic Football Extravaganza, how about we focus on just investing more time in our domestic game and encouraging players to stay local where good coaching and resources are being developed?

Surely we try plans A and B before going nuclear?

[Stuttgart88]

Joining up the game and allowing a properly accountable FAI to take full ownership of it, kicking vested interests into touch, is the most important step.

Let's put aside the emotional or moral debate about a cross-border league.

If a cross-border league was to be created the rationale would have to be financial improvement. Financial improvement = better wages and facilities = retention of better players / less reliance on the lower tiers of English football. As said earlier in another thread, League One players in England earn upwards of GBP 60k a year, so EUR 75k or thereabouts. We'd need to see some improvement to be able to pay Irish-based players anything like this across the board.

Where would the money come frome?
* TV: it'd have to be a very attractive TV product with a big potential audience. I don't see any kind of Celtic League solution here.
* Corporate: the Irish market isn't big enough. I doubt other peripheral countries' markets are either
* Gates: regular crowds of upwards of 10k would be required to contribute financially to a self-sustaining professional league. Again, the "product improvement" would have to be quite substantial.


I've often thought UEFA could do more to include smaller laegues. Perhaps a third-tier European competition, lower than the Europa League and funded by distributions from the other UEFA competitions.

Better still, configuring the Europa League on a regional basis and geared to include a couple of teams from leagues of our standard. In fact, exactly our standard. Anyone lower can eff off :)

The problem here is that if a LOI club cracked it just once they'd become a monopoly domestically so redistribution rules would need to be set.

Another alternative, if the FAI could afford it, would be to offer central contracts to a number of domestic players - potential future internationals most at risk of leaving to League One equivalent clubs.

[Spudulika]

Joining up the game and allowing a properly accountable FAI to take full ownership of it, kicking vested interests into touch, is the most important step.

Let's put aside the emotional or moral debate about a cross-border league.

If a cross-border league was to be created the rationale would have to be financial improvement. Financial improvement = better wages and facilities = retention of better players / less reliance on the lower tiers of English football. As said earlier in another thread, League One players in England earn upwards of GBP 60k a year, so EUR 75k or thereabouts. We'd need to see some improvement to be able to pay Irish-based players anything like this across the board.

Where would the money come frome?
* TV: it'd have to be a very attractive TV product with a big potential audience. I don't see any kind of Celtic League solution here.
* Corporate: the Irish market isn't big enough. I doubt other peripheral countries' markets are either
* Gates: regular crowds of upwards of 10k would be required to contribute financially to a self-sustaining professional league. Again, the "product improvement" would have to be quite substantial.


I've often thought UEFA could do more to include smaller laegues. Perhaps a third-tier European competition, lower than the Europa League and funded by distributions from the other UEFA competitions.

Better still, configuring the Europa League on a regional basis and geared to include a couple of teams from leagues of our standard. In fact, exactly our standard. Anyone lower can eff off :)

The problem here is that if a LOI club cracked it just once they'd become a monopoly domestically so redistribution rules would need to be set.

Another alternative, if the FAI could afford it, would be to offer central contracts to a number of domestic players - potential future internationals most at risk of leaving to League One equivalent clubs.

Do you follow the LOI? Shamrock Rovers...........

I agree on central contracts, though clubs would never go for it.

[Bungle]

Two things we need to do above all else:
1. Appoint a coach who can get more than the sum of its parts out of the national team
2. Focus on developing technique of ALL our young players aged between 8 and 14 - it's about raising the average technical standard of all our club players.


Forget about tactics and systems, keeping player in the national league, all our national teams playing the same system, blaming the English game etc.


no. 1 is something that can be fixed in the short term
number 2 will take longer but needs the FAI, school boy clubs etc all on the same page I doubt they can see past their own agendas and will probably bring out some water downed bullsh!t plan that looks good in a press release

I feel that a co-ordinated system of coaching directed from the very top is the way forward. There is no harm in identifying a system of trying to play - the Danes are copying the Dutch, hence why so many of their players go to Holland, while I understand the Kazakhs have hired a number of top German coaches. The Danes are already a very decent international team with a good pedigree, while the Kazakhs recognise what needs to be done and are taking the required measures - maybe in 10/15 years to come they'll be outplaying and out-thinking our lads home and away.

ArdeeBhoy noted that the North have far more coaches than we have. This is both depressing and worrying and needs immediate action. There are very top level players being produced by Britain and Ireland and we are almost shooting a Hail Mary up in the air if we think that we will produce more than one in any decade until this is dealt with.

Stuttgart rightly notes that there are some dynamic and brilliant people involved in youth football and even entire local leagues are taking great action (NDSL), but that this isn't something that is followed in other leagues. I've heard of the brilliant work being done at Kevin's, Crumlin, Templeogue and Malahide United, while clubs like Cherry Orchard, St Joey's and Home Farm don't seem to be producing the talent they used to. I do think that regional leagues such as the DDSL have too much power and we need the FAI to step in and lay down the marker for what needs to be done across the board, up and down the country.

[DannyInvincible]

UEFA might have left the door open on this from a legal point of view

UEFA/FIFA may be bound by their own rules, but they can also legislate however they like (within the law of the land). Precedent won't get in the way of something that might prove lucrative for them.


I d agree with Mark and Gastric though that something drastic such as a merger needs to happen, the domestic game hasn't really kicked on, this year's European results were shocking and not ever having a team in the CL group stage is a massive indictment of it.

To be fair, this year's LOI European results weren't shocking; they were generally to be expected. Had an Irish team progressed from any of their ties, it would have been an upset. Not that that's any consolation given what is a pretty depressing situation.

Pat's, being seeded, were, of course, the exception and it's not as if they embarrassed either. They were drawn against one of the stronger (the strongest?) unseeded sides in the draw.

[DannyInvincible]

Better still, configuring the Europa League on a regional basis and geared to include a couple of teams from leagues of our standard. In fact, exactly our standard. Anyone lower can eff off :)

That's a nice idea. I'm a fan. Have you ever encountered anyone in an official capacity pushing UEFA for this?

[Charlie Darwin]

Do you follow the LOI? Shamrock Rovers...........
Yeah, the Europa League was a big windfall for Rovers but it was still only about 50% of normal revenue. A huge amount but far from enough to enforce a monopoly.

[geysir]

Good money wasted on a club who couldn't use it properly.

[Stuttgart88]

That's a nice idea. I'm a fan. Have you ever encountered anyone in an official capacity pushing UEFA for this?
I did mention it to Kentaro, the TV rights brokers. They didn't think it was a good idea. One of the guys I am watching the game with tonight is well connected in UEFA so I might bring it up with him.

[Charlie Darwin]

Good money wasted on a club who couldn't use it properly.
They'd hardly be the first LOI club to waste a couple of hundred grand. Sure Dundalk burned half a million-plus last season between McCaffrey, his staff, playing budget and losing 1000 fans.

[Stuttgart88]

Do you follow the LOI? Shamrock Rovers...........Yes, I do. Rovers didn't exactly "crack it" though, did they? Yes they qualified but they left a lot of money on the table too by getting null points.

[geysir]

They'd hardly be the first LOI club to waste a couple of hundred grand. Sure Dundalk burned half a million-plus last season between McCaffrey, his staff, playing budget and losing 1000 fans.

Poor attempt at whataboutery and vain attempt to deflect. The evidence for any point of view on this matter is to be seen on the pitch this season, not in the bluster of your typical footie faux intellectual :)

[Charlie Darwin]

Poor attempt at whataboutery and vain attempt to deflect. The evidence for any point of view on this matter is to be seen on the pitch this season, not in the bluster of your typical footie faux intellectual :)
It's not whataboutery. You implied that other clubs could or would have done better.

[geysir]

It's not whataboutery. You implied that other clubs could or would have done better.
I implied that other clubs could have gotten as far as the Europa league group stage, earned a 1 million on top and would have used it better than Shamrock Rovers??
I suppose one could possibly draw that implication if I was being serious and not flippant, but my thinking did not stretch that far towards an implication, conscious or subconscious.
So Shamrock Rovers did waste the Europa league money?? I just knew that would happen.
Tell me about it :)

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't know what the European money has been spent on because the Rovers' board are secretive about financial matters. The temporary stand in Tallaght would have taken out a couple of hundred grand from the budget and Kenny another substantial sum while it's pretty clear there has been a modest increase in the playing budget, however it seems the club's budget has remained roughly the same. The Europa League exposure has opened up a new world of sponsorship opportunities for the club but I don't know the specific amounts involved, but suffice to say they have expanded revenues that way. Overall, I'm sure there is still plenty of money sitting in a bank somewhere as would befit a club who have learned their lesson from bitter financial meltdown.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fascinating though this is, what's the relevance to Ireland playing poorly v.Sweden.
Regardless of the state of the LOI, we don't have players currently.
There or elsewhere...

[Charlie Darwin]

It doesn't have any relevance, AB. It's called a conversation - sometimes the topic changes.

[DannyInvincible]

Isn't the LOI-related discussion rooted in the notion (of which I'm a proponent) that a strong, organised and connected domestic league can only serve to benefit the national team? Trap's comment on the poor or virtually non-existent state of the league sparked it. Indeed, we don't have the players now, nor is there any "conveyor belt" of talent on its way, which is why we desperately need to plan for the future by overhauling Irish football. It is a bit of a pipe-dream though, I admit.

[geysir]

Fascinating though this is, what's the relevance to Ireland playing poorly v.Sweden.
Regardless of the state of the LOI, we don't have players currently.
There or elsewhere...
Yes indeed, the manager, any manager, does have a next to impossible job with the Intl team, considering there are no players (worth their salt) in Ireland or elsewhere.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So we agree...

[geysir]

So we agree...
Sure AB, on occasion i can make absolutely idiotic contradictory statements, just as well as the next man. And on those rare occasions, we can come together for a union of like minds.

[Stuttgart88]

we don't have players currently.to do what though? To beat Spain? To defend a lead at home to both Sweden and Austria? To get more than 14 points in a qualification group containing nobody special apart from Germany?

Even the Faroes gave Germany a game at home.

[ArdeeBhoy]

To win a raffle...

[DannyInvincible]

Do we genuinely have the ability to consistently compete with the more technically-proficient sides though? A team like Croatia will always be favourites in a game between themselves and ourselves. Qualification will always be more likely for them than it is for us. I use them as a standard or as an example of where we could be with some astute organisation as we share similar populations but they make such a better job of the resources they have available to them.

I suppose what I'm saying is that things could be a lot better than how they are now where we're talking about merely competing with second or third-seeded teams. Can't we hope of consistently beating them some day? It sounds a bit clichéd, but last time we beat a team ranked above us in a competitive game?...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Slovakia, 2007.
Or Fr*nce over 90 mins in '09...

[Charlie Darwin]

Slovakia, 2007.
Or Fr*nce over 90 mins in '09...
Slovakia were ranked below us in 2007 I'm fairly sure. The last time we beat a team ranked above us in a competitive game was France in 2001, or France in 2009 if that counts.

[Irwin3]

Slovakia were ranked below us in 2007 I'm fairly sure. The last time we beat a team ranked above us in a competitive game was France in 2001, or France in 2009 if that counts.

Slovakia were both ranked and seeded above us when we beat them in 2007. I believe the France result goes down as a draw in the record books.

[Charlie Darwin]

Slovakia were both ranked and seeded above us when we beat them in 2007. I believe the France result goes down as a draw in the record books.
Having done my research, they were indeed seeded above us! Not sure if they were ranked above us at the time of the game but I'm inclined to think you're right on that too.

[Fixer82]

Slovakia were ranked below us in 2007 I'm fairly sure. The last time we beat a team ranked above us in a competitive game was France in 2001, or France in 2009 if that counts.

don't remember that?

[Charlie Darwin]

Holland even

[Fixer82]

Holland even

ah right.
yeah that was our last proper win. I never really count France as i always think of it as a draw but I guess over 90 minutes it was a win

[Closed Account 2]

I saw the link posted but haven't had a chance to look at it (assume it's a few pages back?). However I'll believe it when I see it. The women's game is different for obvious reasons. For UEFA to make leagues of this nature happen it would take buy-in from hundreds of clubs, junior clubs, FA representatives and getting on to millions of fans. It's just not realistic.?

Legally is the women's game that different. If UEFA allow merged leagues for women, it would be legally difficult to ban them for men if enough of the clubs want it, to a degree a precident has been set.


Individual FAs would have kittens at the prospect of their autonomy being threatened, not to mention having to split places in Europe. How could CSKA, Zenit and Spartak feel about having to compete with Shakhtar for Champions League places. Never mind a club like Dynamo Kiev, a powerful dynasty in the Ukraine who - if it happened tomorrow - would be blown out of the water in such an arrangement.

At the moment both Russia and Ukraine have 1 CL group entrant and 1 CL playoff entrant. If a combined league had a slightly higher coefficient, and it seems inevitable it would, there would (like Portugal and France) be two automatic group stage teams and one playoff team. If it had a much higher coefficient it could even have 3 automatic and 1 play off place, although I have my doubts it would get this strong and overtake 1 of England, Germany or Spain. I don't see the number of CL teams being that much of an issue. The chairmen interested in the combined league are also trying to negotiate staggered CL qualification. So for the first 2-3 seasons the current status (top Russian team to group stage, second Russian team to play-off; and top Ukrainian team to group stage, second Ukrainian team to play-off) persists even if the top 10 teams are Russian, as this would give the top teams time to adapt. You mention Dynamo Kiev and say, rather dramatically, that they would be blown out of the water in a combined league. But, to continue your aquatic metaphor, they are sinking anyway, in the last 7 years they've only won it twice, every other year it's been Shakhtar, furthermore, in the last 5 years they've missed out on CL group stage football three times. Tellingly last year they finished third not only behind Shakhtar but also Metalist, so they didnt even make the CL qualifiers but are instead just in the EL. Already with 9 games gone this season they are 9 points off the top (Metalist) and down in 6th place.

If a combined league happened, a stuttering Dynamo would be in a better position financially - not only would they get more income from better league sponsorship (a combined Russian and Ukrainian league would have much more pulling power than Ukraine on it's own), but they would also take more in terms of gate receipts from the higher profile matches (Zenit, CSKA, Dinamo Moscow, Lokomotiv) which would probably replace less attended Ukrainian teams (Zaporizhya, Lutsk and Uzghorod)


Big clubs in small ponds like to keep it that way.

Does that not depend on the nature of the "pond" they might move to. Let's take Celtic as an example, yes in the current SPL they would want to biggest team and would be very worried if say (somehow) Aberdeen or one of the Edinburgh clubs challenged them. But I'm fairly certain Celtic would jump at the chance to join the English Premier League (maybe even the Championship) from their point of view I think they would prefer to be a medium fish in a much larger pond. In any case the high profile Russian and Ukrainian clubs have already participated in a joint tournament this summer, Zenit, Spartak, Shakhtar and Dinamo all played in the United Tornament this summer, they all fielded generally their strongest teams and the tournament was fairly well attended - the Ukrainian home matches all had over 20,000 fans and the last match Dinamo vs Zenit had over 50000. The Russian clubs home matches looked, at face value, to be poorly attended but that is because Zenit moved their home matches to Kiev (stadium being rebuilt) and Spartak had to play at Torpedo's stadium (13,000 seater) due to the Luzhniki having the Summer Athletics. Yes it's a pre-season tournament, but it's telling that the clubs took it very seriously (say compared to a Premier League club going to the far East and putting out a reserve team) and it was well attended by domestic fans despite competitive league football taking place a few weeks later.



A massive indictment? On what planet do clubs with an average of less than 2,000 fans, crumbling stadia and budgets cut to the bone get to the group stages of the Champions League?


Here's a list of clubs who have made it to the CL group stage, and have similar domestic attendances to the top 2-3 teams in the LoI.

Club --- Country --- Avg att last year
MSK Zelina --- Slovakia --- 2022
Kosice --- Slovakia --- 2358
Unirea --- Romania --- 2,706
Cork City --- Ireland --- 2,764
Maribor --- Slovenia --- 2833
Sligo --- Ireland --- 3007
Shamrock --- Ireland --- 3022
Dinamo Zagreb --- Croatia --- 3063

Obviously I've included Shamrock Rovers, Sligo and Cork in the list even though they havent made the CL groups to give you an indication of where LoI teams are in terms of attendance. Attendances are from here (http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/). There is also Artmedia Petrzalka who qaulified for the group stage almost a decade ago, at the time their stadium (now demolished had a capacity of 7000 and it seems their domestic average attendance was around 3000). Beyond this there is a whole raft of teams who have an average domestic attendance of considerably less than 10,000 yet have still made the CL group stage. Debrecen, HJK Helsinki, Otelul Galati, Cluj, Widzew Lodz, Thun, Ant Famagusta, Levski Sofia, Norsjelland, Ferencvaros, Lierse, Aalborg, Salzburg, Hapoel Tel Aviv, Molde, - that (with the previously mentioned teams) is around 20 teams and how many of those are so called "sugar daddy" clubs? There is only one club in there (HJK) who you would say are usual cast iron favourites to win their league.



Those looking at drastic measures need to chill it down a bit. It's obvious Irish football needs a reform - top to bottom - but instead of going through the decades-in-the-making legal equivalent of shoving a camel through the needle's eye by forming a joint North Atlantic Football Extravaganza, how about we focus on just investing more time in our domestic game and encouraging players to stay local where good coaching and resources are being developed?

Surely we try plans A and B before going nuclear?

It's been 20-30 years of dismal performances by LoI club sides in Europe, look down the list of European countries by population and we are the largest (population) that has yet to have CL group football, aside from Kazakhstan (who have only been in UEFA since 2002/3). At least other countries who havent had CL group stage football have valid reasons. Bosnia, Macedonia have only fielded teams in UEFA competitions for half that time. Others have populations much smaller than Ireland, Estonia and Iceland have populations around a third and less than a tenth of Ireland, yet ironically both the Icelandic and the Estonian CL clubs were nearer to making the group stage than Sligo, both got a round further and both went out to eventual group stage teams (Viktoria Plzen and Austria Vienna). Sligo lost to Molde, who were then eliminated by Legia, who themselves were eliminated by Steaua Bucharest. What are plans A and B? And how long are we meant to eek along those paths for? Another 20-30 years ? I think it's time to look at other more drastic options, be it a more county/province based approach (say like GAA or Rugby) or going for some sort of combined league.