Waterford winding up order

[Dodge]

Waterford have a high court date of July 15th relating to money owed to former manager.

It's in a couple of papers today.

Clearly not good news, is there any chance of them pulling through? at this stage they must really be banking on that Man U friendly

[fionnsci]

I'd be surprised (admittedly not knowing the facts or much about winding-up orders in general) if they went under due to money owed to one person. Clubs have come through much worse than that.

[Partizan]

Court date for the petition for a winding up order to be issued will be on 15th July in the High Court. The total amount of monies owed are €50,000.

[Longfordian]

Just comes down to the creditor's willingness to do a deal with them. Forces the club to stop ignoring their requests (I'm not saying they were I'm just saying generally). Not much chance of the person getting paid if they're wound up though, they don't have any assets.

[The Lilywhites]

http://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/ex-waterford-united-boss-stephen-1964685

Where's madblaa now??

[White Horse]

Sad to see, but on the basis of that article the prospects appear poor.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I'd be surprised (admittedly not knowing the facts or much about winding-up orders in general) if they went under due to money owed to one person. Clubs have come through much worse than that.

Don't they owe money to a few players too? There was a story about medical expenses or something right? Gary Dunphy?

There have been warning signs of this nature since before the end of last season.

[Straightstory]

Berserk! Would be some story if a sacked manager ended up putting the club out of business. Judging from this, Henderson seems to be in the right. All rather shoddy from Waterford's end.

[Partizan]

Tweet from Brendan White of extratime.ie


Brendan White ‏@whitebrendan 33m

Just to clarify, a wind-up order has not been made against Waterford United. A petition has been made which the court will decide.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I assume that Waterford are simply not in a position to pay Henderson?

[Dodge]

Court date for the petition for a winding up order to be issued will be on 15th July in the High Court. The total amount of monies owed are €50,000.

How long left had he on his contract? That's an unreal amount. Seems like things are piling up for Waterford. Fingers crossed they pull through.

From my little knowledge of this type of owed money if they can come to a payment deal, I think they'll be OK. That it's got to this stage for Henderson (who'd clearly prefer anything but this) suggests it's not tht straight forward

[Jofspring]

Waterford have had 6 months to pay or even start making some kind of payments so it seems Henderson has ever right to go about it the way he has. If Waterford can pay players then they surely can pay some money to Henderson or at least cut loose some of the bigger earners to allow for the money to go to Henderson. It's a sacrifice Waterford would have to make but it needs to be made.

What happened the money from the Seanie Maguire move? I thought that was supposed to pay off what was owed to Henderson.

[Partizan]

Waterford have had 6 months to pay or even start making some kind of payments so it seems Henderson has ever right to go about it the way he has. If Waterford can pay players then they surely can pay some money to Henderson or at least cut loose some of the bigger earners to allow for the money to go to Henderson. It's a sacrifice Waterford would have to make but it needs to be made.

What happened the money from the Seanie Maguire move? I thought that was supposed to pay off what was owed to Henderson.

Legal proceedings were wrapped up at the end of March but yes questions must be answered why it was let get to this stage.

[Jofspring]

Legal proceedings were wrapped up at the end of March but yes questions must be answered why it was let get to this stage.

My mistake so, I thought it was since December.

[gormacha]

Going from memory, and I'm open to correction on this, I think he had a year and a half left on his contract.

[NeverFeltBetter]

What happened the money from the Seanie Maguire move? I thought that was supposed to pay off what was owed to Henderson.

The fee was never disclosed was it?

[adamd164]

Question that should be asked is why he was sacked in the first place!!

Hope they pull through, wouldn't like to see them go under.

[MariborKev]

What happened the money from the Seanie Maguire move? I thought that was supposed to pay off what was owed to Henderson.

Deals with English clubs are rarely lump sums up front these days, at least in my experience.

As for the club not going under due to the one person, one only has to cast a glance north to Newry City for a very relevant recent example.

[GCdfc]

The court ordered Waterford United to pay Henderson a five figure sum plus costs – but he has yet to receive a cent.

Waterford then appealed that ruling only to withdraw it days after league licences for this season were issued.

Am I the only one that thinks that the quoted text above implies that they conned the licence system. They appealed it so that they wouldn't have outstanding debt to former staff? They then withdrew the appeal once they got their licence....

[MariborKev]

Am I the only one that thinks that the quoted text above implies that they conned the licence system. They appealed it so that they wouldn't have outstanding debt to former staff? They then withdrew the appeal once they got their licence....

Depends, but could be read that way.

It would fall under IAS37, which is an accounting standard relating to provision. Dependent on what legal advice was etc, they may have thought it prudent to "provide" for this in their annual accounts, looks like they didn't.

[Bosco]

I'd presume a good chunk of that 50k owed is from his Defamtion claim rather then breach of contract as the compensation awarded in defamtion cases are usually substantial.

What is the situation with Waterford's other creditors?I know in cases like this where it's a single creditor who brings a petition, the Court is usually unwilling to grant the order if the other creditors don't wish for it to be wound up.

[DRDoc]

Am I the only one that thinks that the quoted text above implies that they conned the licence system. They appealed it so that they wouldn't have outstanding debt to former staff? They then withdrew the appeal once they got their licence....

Yep looks like that doesnt it

[Partizan]

Statement from Waterford Chairman John O'Sullivan contradicts what Henderson said today in the papers.

http://www.beat102103.com/news-and-sport/south-east-first-division-club-could-be-in-crisis


Stephen Henderson says he's sad to see things come to this.

He claims the club has not engaged in negotiations, leaving him with no other option:

"Simply put, lack of communication I suppose, that's pretty much where were are at the moment. Nobody wants to go down this road. I certainly don't. I'm as disappointed, disgusted, and broken hearted that it's come to this stage to be brutally honest with you. All we needed to do was have a conversation, and these conversations never took place."


Meanwhile Waterford United Chairman John O'Sullivan has been speaking ahead of an emergency board meeting tonight, he says the club simply can't afford to pay:

"Excuse me, there was negotiations. The main reason is that the club don't have the money, number one, and everybody knows that no league of Ireland club will have the guts of fifty thousand in their back pocket so, what we have to try and do is organise to raise the money to try and get it. There's over 26 people employed by the club so, if it happens and they go, what a shame that would be so, we're gonna do our best to try and keep it going."

[Mr A]

Mad situation. Looks bleak but then these things always do. Hope Waterford pull through.

[A face]

Question that should be asked is why he was sacked in the first place!!

But people are looking for Tommy Dunne to be sacked from City and Henderson was in a much worse state than Dunne is right now. I thought it was a knee-jerk reaction at the time but it was looking bleak for the Blaahs at that time if you were a glass half empty type person. Its hard to say really, given the board at the time would have far more visibility than we would but in this case in particular i thought they were robbed in a load of games, narrowly missing out on points that could have changed things, certainly didn't seem to be a total 'doomed' situation that would warrant a sacked so early in the season.

[disgruntled]

Statement from Waterford Chairman John O'Sullivan contradicts what Henderson said today in the papers.

http://www.beat102103.com/news-and-sport/south-east-first-division-club-could-be-in-crisis[/

"Excuse me, there was negotiations. The main reason is that the club don't have the money, number one, and everybody knows that no league of Ireland club will have the guts of fifty thousand in their back pocket so, what we have to try and do is organise to raise the money to try and get it. There's over 26 people employed by the club so, if it happens and they go, what a shame that would be so, we're gonna do our best to try and keep it going."


They should have thought of that before they fired him.
These are the old school tactics used by League of Ireland clubs for decades which explains the condition of the League of Ireland.
They don't work any more. It seems that Waterfords idea of negotiations is "We don't have any money so p*** off"
You can't fire someone & then pretend they resigned.
Some people are suggesting that this be done to Tommy Dunne at Cork City.
Let this case be a warning to any other club trying a similar tactic.

It seems that Henderson used the courts as a last resort.
It also seems that there are meaningful negotiations taking place now between Waterford & Henderson ?
Pity they didn't do it before they got caught with his legal fees as well.

[A face]

They should have thought of that before they fired him.

Exactly ... and clubs would do well to sign managers and players on contracts that they can afford, if you cant afford a three year contract then do sign them up on it.


These are the old school tactics used by League of Ireland clubs for decades which explains the condition of the League of Ireland.
They don't work any more. It seems that Waterfords idea of negotiations is "We don't have any money so p*** off"
You can't fire someone & then pretend they resigned.
Some people are suggesting that this be done to Tommy Dunne at Cork City.
Let this case be a warning to any other club trying a similar tactic.

If the league is dragged up kicking and screaming then so be it i suppose. Administrators need to verse themselves in employment law it seems, if its not fair in any other industry then its not fair in football.

[NeverFeltBetter]

http://www.extratime.ie/newsdesk/articles/10525/blues-say-negotiations-underway-henderson/

That it took a winding up order to get to this point is very concerning.

[GCdfc]

More embarrassment for the club courtesy of their chairman.

[Bosco]

It seems he just used this petition as a final resort to make them sit up and listen. Their chairman's excuse that the money simply wasnt' there doesn't exactly justify not being willing to pay up.
Some of the Waterford fan's reactions have been a bit over the top, calling him a money hungry scumbag etc....I wasn't aware Waterford were a law onto themselves..

[NeverFeltBetter]

I can understand why some Waterford fans would be upset, but unless Henderson is outright lying about the lack of negotiations or the nature of his dismissal, I can't see how he is in the wrong here.

[gormacha]

Some of the Waterford fan's reactions have been a bit over the top, calling him a money hungry scumbag etc....I wasn't aware Waterford were a law onto themselves..

That would appear to be a very small minority of fans. Most of the comments even on our own forum (which would be the home to the most, er, enthusiastic of our supporters, myself included) are despairing of this, and other, situations the club finds itself in.

Personally, I tend to always take the side of an employee in these situations. The fact that it's a football club, or even that its my football club, is largely irrelevant. If someone has a contract, and in the definite absence of gross misconduct or a clear resignation, then the employer must pay, and it appears that's what the court felt too.

[DRDoc]

it appears that's what the court felt too.

Nothing on the WUFC forum about why defamation was awarded to him - does anyone know what the story is with that?

[blue til i die]

Nothing on the WUFC forum about why defamation was awarded to him - does anyone know what the story is with that?

Wasn't sought by Henderson or his legal team I believe, was added to award by the case judge. Apparently from a statement the club out out.

[Nesta99]

Wasn't sought by Henderson or his legal team I believe, was added to award by the case judge. Apparently from a statement the club out out.

Now that is bizzare!! Club defames ex-employee in court during a severance hearing compounding costs, Have I misunderstood this? If not how damn stupid!

[Trainee]

Are Waterford Fans looking to set up a Supporters Trust just in case the worst happens?

[disgruntled]

Are Waterford Fans looking to set up a Supporters Trust just in case the worst happens?

Its not easy but I hope they do because it seems the only way to run a League of Ireland club properly.
Waterford like a lot of League of Ireland clubs have lurched from one disaster to another over the years & it always ends in tears.
I just wish clubs would cut their cloth according to their measure even if this means being on the wrong end of the league.
You cannot spend more than you earn as sooner or later it will catch up with you.
I'm sure all our clubs have been in dire straits at one time or another & I hope Waterford make it out of this..

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't understand why a First Division club ever thought it was a good idea to give a manager a 2-year contract with the state the league's in.

[deiseach]

I don't understand why a First Division club ever thought it was a good idea to give a manager a 2-year contract with the state the league's in.

First Division club in bad decision shocker! :(

[NeverFeltBetter]

If the First Division lasts, I can see it becoming an non-professional tier entirely.

[deiseach]

From what I can see, the Blues have adopted a cut-your-cloth-to-measure mentality over the last two seasons. The situations with Stephen Henderson and Gary Dunphy, while conceivably caused by poor administration, are not symptomatic of day-to-day profligacy.

[Dodge]

From what I can see, the Blues have adopted a cut-your-cloth-to-measure mentality over the last two seasons. The situations with Stephen Henderson and Gary Dunphy, while conceivably caused by poor administration, are not symptomatic of day-to-day profligacy.

Last year they had Gary Dempsey on their books and he wasn't doing it for expenses.

[deiseach]

Last year they had Gary Dempsey on their books and he wasn't doing it for expenses.

I didn't say no one was being paid. I said they've cut their cloth to measure, i.e. they only pay what they can afford.

[Dodge]

I didn't say no one was being paid. I said they've cut their cloth to measure, i.e. they only pay what they can afford.

Except the money they owed to hospitals, former managers etc?

[gormacha]

I didn't say no one was being paid. I said they've cut their cloth to measure, i.e. they only pay what they can afford.

That's my reading of it as well. I would have a lot of sympathy with the view these two specific issues appear to have been poorly handled, but the day-to-day finances have been prudently managed.

The club has not overspent in recent years. In fact, that's played a large part in why we've been down in the FD for so long. Before these exceptional items came along, I would have argued we were a model of sustainability. The very sad part, from our point of view, is that this prudence now largely counts for nought, as the monies owed to Stephen Henderson in particular have overtaken matters.

[gormacha]

Except the money they owed to hospitals, former managers etc?

My posts elsewhere will I hope point out what I feel on these issues, but there is a difference between monies owed that arise out of an unplanned dispute (and therefore wouldn't form part of your budgeting) and wilful, planned, unsustainable overspending on, for example, players.

[deiseach]

Except the money they owed to hospitals, former managers etc?

They're hardly day-to-day expenses, are they? I'm not saying the club doesn't owe the money and shouldn't pay out. But if someone is on minimum wage and meeting their regular bills only to find out their child needs expensive dentist work that they can't afford, you wouldn't accuse them of being reckless. Or maybe you would.

[White Horse]

My posts elsewhere will I hope point out what I feel on these issues, but there is a difference between monies owed that arise out of an unplanned dispute (and therefore wouldn't form part of your budgeting) and wilful, planned, unsustainable overspending on, for example, players.


I wouldn't call paying a manager his contractual wages or paying medical expenses as anything other than day to day expenses that should be budgeted.

[Dodge]

They're hardly day-to-day expenses, are they? I'm not saying the club doesn't owe the money and shouldn't pay out. But if someone is on minimum wage and meeting their regular bills only to find out their child needs expensive dentist work that they can't afford, you wouldn't accuse them of being reckless. Or maybe you would.

The players signed on professional terms aren't starving children. Waterford knew the money was outstanding for the past couple of years and continued to ignore it, and use the money to spend on players instead.

[deiseach]

The players signed on professional terms aren't starving children. Waterford knew the money was outstanding for the past couple of years and continued to ignore it, and use the money to spend on players instead.

The disputes with Stephen Henderson (http://www.waterford-news.ie/2012/12/18/blues-on-the-brink-after-court-ruling/) and Gary Dunphy (http://www.pfai.ie/news/324-statements-regarding-drc-decision) were only concluded in the last six months. Maybe you think that the club should have kept sums which amount to a multiple of annual turnover in the bank in case they lost these cases. If you believe that, fine. I don't think that's reasonable but we can agree to differ. I don't see any megabucks deals being done this season with the current squad that prevented them settling with either party and given the numbers who have gone through the turnstiles at the RSC this season (http://www.extratime.ie/newsdesk/articles/10511/a-breakdown-of-league-of-ireland-attendances/), that's just as well.

Now before anyone says it, I don't think the club should kicked the can down the road as they seem to have done with Stephen Henderson. They should have sat down with him and said that come the next friendly payday they'd be able to see him right. They seem to have hoped the problem would just go away, which was foolish and wrong.