Waterford winding up order

[Dodge]

They seem to have hoped the problem would just go away, which was foolish and wrong.

That's the exact opposit of prudence, and precisely the reason for me posting above

[deiseach]

That's the exact opposit of prudence, and precisely the reason for me posting above

But they're not frittering money away on expensive professional contracts. How much money do you think Waterford United have chosen to "spend on players instead" this season?

[bullit]

deisach.
Will United be sticking with the current managment structure do you reckon?
Genuine question.

[Dodge]

But they're not frittering money away on expensive professional contracts. How much money do you think Waterford United have chosen to "spend on players instead" this season?

Too much. Only 2 weeks ago they got the local lad in on loan from Dundee United. You think that costs nothing?

[gormacha]

The players signed on professional terms aren't starving children. Waterford knew the money was outstanding for the past couple of years and continued to ignore it, and use the money to spend on players instead.

That's inaccurate. Both issues were in dispute until the turn of this year.

No club in the country would be in the position to make provision for the money that the awards ended up costing.

I'm not arguing they were in the right, nor am I suggesting they shouldn't pay.

[deiseach]

deisach.
Will United be sticking with the current managment structure do you reckon?
Genuine question.

Yes, I think they will.

[deiseach]

Too much. Only 2 weeks ago they got the local lad in on loan from Dundee United. You think that costs nothing?

I don't think it costs a lot. Your position, on the other hand, seems to be that Waterford United should spend zero on wages because they owe money to a third party. If Stephen Henderson is going to be paid using the money saved from the current wage bill, he's going to be old and grey(er) before he sees it all.

[gormacha]

Yes, I think they will.

I wonder will they need some kind of agreement from the FAI to do that? I'm not sure, but I can't imagine that David Breen has the required badges?

[deiseach]

I wonder will they need some kind of agreement from the FAI to do that? I'm not sure, but I can't imagine that David Breen has the required badges?

They're certainly not going to be getting in an expensive manager!

[bullit]

Is Breen doing his badges ATM? I think if you're currently a coach on a course for a full FAI Coaching badge then you can be appointed manager ala Darius for DundalkFC last year.

[gormacha]

Is Breen doing his badges ATM? I think if you're currently a coach on a course for a full FAI Coaching badge then you can be appointed manager ala Darius for DundalkFC last year.

I don't know. I have a vague memory that he is, but I could be wrong. Not the most helpful reply, but it's all I've got. :)

[deiseach]

Is Breen doing his badges ATM? I think if you're currently a coach on a course for a full FAI Coaching badge then you can be appointed manager ala Darius for DundalkFC last year.

I'm afraid I have no inside knowledge. My feeling that they'll carry on with the way things are is that there's no point in trying to get in a different manager as anyone who might have a track record is going to be put off by the club's situation. The revenue from the Man Utd game might have been a useful carrot to dangle, but that's already eaten at this stage.

[Charlie Darwin]

That's inaccurate. Both issues were in dispute until the turn of this year.

No club in the country would be in the position to make provision for the money that the awards ended up costing.
That doesn't explain why they haven't paid Henderson any money. They may not have been in a position to provide for it all, but any half-responsible debtor would at least make a token gesture to acknowledge the debt.

Unless, of course, said debtor doesn't believe they legitimately owe the money.

[gormacha]

That doesn't explain why they haven't paid Henderson any money. They may not have been in a position to provide for it all, but any half-responsible debtor would at least make a token gesture to acknowledge the debt.


I couldn't agree more.


Unless, of course, said debtor doesn't believe they legitimately owe the money.

I'm sure there are some who hold that point of view. To my mind though it's irrelevant. A court has decided, and that's pretty much that.

[deiseach]

That doesn't explain why they haven't paid Henderson any money. They may not have been in a position to provide for it all, but any half-responsible debtor would at least make a token gesture to acknowledge the debt.

Unless, of course, said debtor doesn't believe they legitimately owe the money.

I think the Blues have been irresponsible in this matter. I really think they deserve credit for not trying to buy their way out of the First Division. There's too much of that crap going on in football everywhere. But I'm absolutely baffled as to why they didn't engage with Henderson on some level. The only way I can explain it is that they hoped he'd go away. As I said earlier, foolish and wrong.

[Ezeikial]

Are Waterford Fans looking to set up a Supporters Trust just in case the worst happens?


Its not easy but I hope they do because it seems the only way to run a League of Ireland club properly.
Waterford like a lot of League of Ireland clubs have lurched from one disaster to another over the years & it always ends in tears.
I just wish clubs would cut their cloth according to their measure even if this means being on the wrong end of the league.
You cannot spend more than you earn as sooner or later it will catch up with you.
I'm sure all our clubs have been in dire straits at one time or another & I hope Waterford make it out of this..

Member / Supporter Trust run clubs are well able to crash and burn. "Lurching from one disaster to another", not "cutting their cloth according to their measure" and spending "more than you earn" readily fits with both member owner and privately owned models in recent seasons.

[Spudulika]

Bellavistaman, it's simple league of ireland logic from both parties. From the club - sit and do nothing, hope it all goes away. From the person - get onto a journo mate and shout loud. I know this is too simplistic, but I've followed this story from the off and each time it curls back to the same thing. 2 opposite opinions and no professional way of curing it. And in some ways it rolls back to contracts and stability, clubs want to be more settled and plan for the future, things go wrong and the club wants to bail on the manager and they realise the situation they're in is bad. It will take the FAI to step in and do something with it.

[dong]

I think the Blues have been irresponsible in this matter. I really think they deserve credit for not trying to buy their way out of the First Division. There's too much of that crap going on in football everywhere. But I'm absolutely baffled as to why they didn't engage with Henderson on some level. The only way I can explain it is that they hoped he'd go away. As I said earlier, foolish and wrong.

You talk a lot about "engaging with Henderson on some level"
What exactly do you mean by this when Waterford were obviously unwilling to pay him anything?
It sounds like something Leo Varadkar might say.

[disgruntled]

Member / Supporter Trust run clubs are well able to crash and burn. "Lurching from one disaster to another", not "cutting their cloth according to their measure" and spending "more than you earn" readily fits with both member owner and privately owned models in recent seasons.

I believe that a supporters run club has a better chance of staying within their means because they are run by people who love the game & are fans of the particular club involved & not some business wanabe who uses the club as a play thing or as a means of advancing himself in the public eye.
It doesn't mean they can't get themselves in trouble but being football people they have a better chance of seeing the warning signs.

If Waterford had met with Henderson I'm sure they could have come to some arrangement as to how to pay him off. Instead they choose to ignore him on the chance he might just go away in a similar way to what some people do with their individual debts.
Its not easy running a football club but there's a right way & a wrong way.

[Spudulika]

I believe that a supporters run club has a better chance of staying within their means because they are run by people who love the game & are fans of the particular club involved & not some business wanabe who uses the club as a play thing or as a means of advancing himself in the public eye.
It doesn't mean they can't get themselves in trouble but being football people they have a better chance of seeing the warning signs.

If Waterford had met with Henderson I'm sure they could have come to some arrangement as to how to pay him off. Instead they choose to ignore him on the chance he might just go away in a similar way to what some people do with their individual debts.
Its not easy running a football club but there's a right way & a wrong way.

disgruntled, you're right to a large degree, supporters run clubs have more of a chance of staying within their means, though in essence all clubs are run/owned by supporters (or the majority I should say). Football clubs are not for proper investors, those who want to shift funds, okay, or to fund other ventures, but not for long term traditional returns. But supporter run clubs can also have their issues and the central one is division in the ranks, this can damage the effectiveness of an otherwise good model.

German clubs (as well as many on the continent) are supposedly led by supporters, but dig a little below the surface and the bulk of power is from the commercial or governmental side. In Russia, almost all clubs are set up as societies organised around a defined entity (army, factory etc) and in the paperwork are owned by supporters, however the funding is usually from 1 or 2 sources (or both) - a local company or benefactor and/or the local government. Each club will have a rep from one or both controlling issues and it only takes a fall from grace to destroy a club - I can list 11 from this past 14 months from Premier to 2nd Division. Regardless of how well they're run (as supporters clubs) the central issue is funding and access to funding, nobody can be 100% sure of either so ultimately it's all based on eliminating negative factors and reducing risk as much as possible.

[gormacha]

You talk a lot about "engaging with Henderson on some level"
What exactly do you mean by this when Waterford were obviously unwilling to pay him anything?
It sounds like something Leo Varadkar might say.

This type of post baffles me. Both deiseach and I have pointed out - repeatedly - that we don't agree with what the club did, and that they should have have begun negotiations at the very least about how to structure paying him, and that they should pay him because a court has decreed that has to happen.

[dong]

This type of post baffles me. Both deiseach and I have pointed out - repeatedly - that we don't agree with what the club did, and that they should have have begun negotiations at the very least about how to structure paying him, and that they should pay him because a court has decreed that has to happen.

I was just wondering why deiseach would use that phrase rather than just saying the club should have paid the money owed.
I've read through the last couple of pages and I accept your point to an extent but there is a contradictory theme as well in a few posts of saying sure where would we get the money?

[wonder88]

Would Waterford not consider setting up a new company and transfer anything worthwhile into it (fai licence, players reg, playing gear etc) and leave debts etc in the old/current one. A number of the big LoI clubs have done this over the years, even Pats if I remember correctly.

[Mr A]

MOD NOTE: Folks- there were allegations made above with nothing like the level of support required for things of this nature.

Please be very careful with what you post.

[Mr A]

It is perfectly possible to comment on the matter and indeed introduce new material without making bald accusations that could lead to legal issues for the site and the poster. But if that proves beyond people then yeah, the thread will end up gone.

Edit. Cleaned out the whinging crap. If you want to complain do it in the support forum. We have already lost a thread because people can't use a bit of sense when posting, it would be good if we could avoid doing so again.

[White Horse]

Just saw this on Twitter, a photo from Feb 1932 advertising a Waterford/Dundalk game. Too much tradition to allow Waterford to go under.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BN3UXVTCUAAVbgN.jpg:large

[Nesta99]

Kilcohan Park, Sunday, Feb 14th. If my eyes are up to it?
Wonder what the 'we have peace' is all about?

[White Horse]

Kilcohan Park, Sunday, Feb 14th. If my eyes are up to it?
Wonder what the 'we have peace' is all about?

20-20, Nesta.

The election posters of that era are fascinating. The one you mention can be viewed here in more detail.

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000275417

[Nesta99]

Link much appreciated WH, early 20th century Irish political history pointers on a football forum! Nice!

[jinxy lilywhite]

i like the 5th poster over. the silhouette of the gunman. was the pic taken in dlk or Waterford I wonder?

[Nesta99]

Well its Waterford at home! 'Shadow of a Gunman' they are fascinating posters as WH has said.

[jinxy lilywhite]

look closer though. it is election campaign for CnaG

[gormacha]

Brendan White reporting on twitter that the case has been adjourned for two weeks. No further explanation offered as of yet.

[Mr A]

Two weeks isn't much of an adjournment- do the friendlies with Man Utd and Crystal Palace fall before then?

[gormacha]

Two weeks isn't much of an adjournment- do the friendlies with Man Utd and Crystal Palace fall before then?

The Man U one does, but not the Palace one.

Apparently the reason for the adjournment was that Waterford United changed legal teams and requested further time. Make of that what you will.

[Eminence Grise]

Make of that what you will.

Going ten at the back, holding out for extra time and hoping to nick it on the break...

[Mr A]

Seems odd to change your legal team so late in the day, hard to know what to think of that.

I think Waterford will come out ok in the end though.

[Nesta99]

Seems odd to change your legal team so late in the day, hard to know what to think of that.

I think Waterford will come out ok in the end though.

Seems to me that Waterford have a great legal advisor who has every trick in the book to stall a case or hearing. Buying time so friendlies bring in funds to cover the cost needed to meet the winding up petition. The changed legal team is probably a pal of the current people and will provide the paperwork to make the adjournment justified and above board.

[Jofspring]

Saw over on twitter that the judge has said no more adjournments. Either an agreement is made in the next two weeks or the club will be wound up.

So after it being said the club are talking to Henderson re payment it seems they actually still haven't talked to him or at least made much of an effort to come to an agreement about it. I think Henderson should dig his heels in and not budge from what he is owed. A reasonable payment scheme should just be put in place. I know if I was him I'd be sick as a dog seeing players signing without getting a penny myself.

Hopefully it just gets sorted now ASAP and both parties can move on.

[Lim till i die]

Simple delaying tactic until after the Man U under 16s game where Hendo will be handed a lovely big bag of dirty cash.

Waterford will then limp along until the end of the season before being put in a new top flight next year. Following this, as history has taught us, everything will then be wonderful forever.

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.

[Partizan]

Simple delaying tactic until after the Man U under 16s game where Hendo will be handed a lovely big bag of dirty cash.

Waterford will then limp along until the end of the season before being put in a new top flight next year. Following this, as history has taught us, everything will then be wonderful forever.

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.

For once, I hope you are right. :D

[**FrOsTy**]

IMO, We're F***ED, Up Sh*t Creek without a paddle, Sh*gged.

My gut feeling is that a long tradition of over 80 years of LOI Football in Waterford has a mere week left.

and this doesn't help - http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0720/463651-fai-agm/

[jinxy lilywhite]

pay your bills

[**FrOsTy**]

Oh and by the way, just want to point out to ye, that the case Gary Dunphy took against the club was appealed and won, seen a few posts a few pages back bringing that into it.

[ATFC-1887]

surely ye raised alot from the Man Utd game?

[Longfordian]

Retweeting people giving out about the FAI will probably cost them some more money. The FAI don't respond well to that type of thing by all accounts.

[Partizan]

Retweeting people giving out about the FAI will probably cost them some more money. The FAI don't respond well to that type of thing by all accounts.

An arrangement that had been in place for the last ten years and was ok'd by the FAI so Waterford did nothing wrong. How many other clubs have similar arrangements in relation to the affiliation fees?

This part in the article explains why we were singled out rather unfairly.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/fai-cancels-press-conference-at-cagey-agm-1.1470487


The highly unusual move to not have a press conference, meanwhile, followed an earlier refusal to allow FAI Council member Paul Cooke represent Waterford United at the meeting on the basis that the club has not paid its affiliation fees to the association.

Cooke, who has been critical of the way in which the issue of the association’s finances has been handled and who was recently been disciplined by the organisation after appearing on an RTE Primetime programme that dealt with the topic, suggested it was normal practice to agree to have such fees deducted from money due to clubs from the association.

[Charlie Darwin]

What was the agreement?

[Ezeikial]

An arrangement that had been in place for the last ten years and was ok'd by the FAI so Waterford did nothing wrong. How many other clubs have similar arrangements in relation to the affiliation fees?

This part in the article explains why we were singled out rather unfairly.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/fai-cancels-press-conference-at-cagey-agm-1.1470487

The Irish Times article gives a glimpse of the rotten essence of the FAI

[Longfordian]

An arrangement that had been in place for the last ten years and was ok'd by the FAI so Waterford did nothing wrong. How many other clubs have similar arrangements in relation to the affiliation fees?

This part in the article explains why we were singled out rather unfairly.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/fai-cancels-press-conference-at-cagey-agm-1.1470487
I know we've had the same arrangement in years gone by I don't know about now. Don't get me wrong I wasn't criticising Waterford over this just saying that the FAI could use the tweet as a further stick to beat you with. They're a sensitive bunch.