Champions League 2012-13

[Charlie Darwin]

Good/bad?


A proposal to abolish the Europa League and double the size of the Champions League to 64 clubs is among a number of changes to European competitions being considered by Uefa.The European governing body is pondering changes to both their club competitions and will make a decision in 2014.
Another proposal being looked at is to award Champions League qualification to the winners of the Europa League, and possibly even the runners-up too, in a bid to boost interest in the second-tier competition.
Uefa president Michel Platini confirmed the proposal for a 64-club Champions League is being looked at.
In an interview with French newspaper Ouest-France, he said: “There is an ongoing debate to determine what form the European competitions will take between 2015 and 2018. We talk, and we will make a decision in 2014. There is nothing decided yet.”
A 64-club competition would see as many as seven English clubs and five Scottish teams entering at various stages of the qualifying rounds.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soccer/2012/1128/1224327234376.html

[BonnieShels]

Bad. Champions League is too big as it is. It's strength has devalued the Europa League to a ridiculous extent.

[Charlie Darwin]

On first glance, doesn't this mean there'll be less teams overall in Europe? Sneaky backdoor towards a Euro super league maybe.

[nigel-harps1954]

That would be a disgraceful decision by UEFA. The Champions League is meant to be exclusive and the top level of football in Europe. As BonnieShels has already stated, it's too big as it is.

If they're scrapping the Europa League, I'd like to see the return of the ECWC.

[BonnieShels]

That would be a disgraceful decision by UEFA. The Champions League is meant to be exclusive and the top level of football in Europe. As BonnieShels has already stated, it's too big as it is.

If they're scrapping the Europa League, I'd like to see the return of the ECWC.

I doubt that they'd bring in wrestling to satiate your needs Nige.

[nigel-harps1954]

I doubt that they'd bring in wrestling to satiate your needs Nige.

Wouldn't you pay to see someone like Richard Dunne wrestle some fella from the depths of Lithuania?

Although...I do believe that was just ECW and not ECWC ;)

[BonnieShels]

Wouldn't you pay to see someone like Richard Dunne wrestle some fella from the depths of Lithuania?

Although...I do believe that was just ECW and not ECWC ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk

[geysir]

How would a 64 team competition be sorted? 16 groups of 4, with the winners going through to the last 16?
I presume so, because it would be difficult to add match days to the football calendar to allow for an 8 team group.
Right now, it''s hard to see that format being better than the current twin tier format.


This is not a bad idea, it's not a cure for the EL, but could be an acceptable compromise.

Another proposal being looked at is to award Champions League qualification to the winners of the Europa League, and possibly even the runners-up too, in a bid to boost interest in the second-tier competition.

More from Platini

Platini also left the door ajar for video refereeing to rule on offside decisions. ..... "If you want to put the technology on the goal line, just that, it costs us €32m in the first year and €54m over five years. For 5 Referees/Officials, it costs us €2.3m per year. The calculation is done quickly".

[geysir]

Now it's into the last 16 phase.

Considering Benfica faced an already qualified, weakened, almost hapless Barca and Spartak were all out with guns blazing for some form of revenge/redemption, Celtic did well to better Benfica's result on the night.
Spartak's discipline was desperate, it's as if the players have a license to lose the rag, have a free pass to attempt crazy yellow card tackles, even McGeady was affected.
It's not surprising that they're in relative turmoil.

La Liga rules with 4 teams, next comes the Bundesliga with 3 teams through.

[ArdeeBhoy]

A nervy performance.

Dortmund or Malaga would be nice, but the next round. almost certainly the end of the road...

[Charlie Darwin]

La Liga rules with 4 teams, next comes the Bundesliga with 3 teams through.
Luckily we know better, that the EPL is still the best league in the world despite all reason and available evidence.

[nigel-harps1954]

Spartak's discipline was desperate, it's as if the players have a license to lose the rag, have a free pass to attempt crazy yellow card tackles, even McGeady was affected.


Funny, there was one challenge he made about 5 minutes from the end of the match, and I could have sworn he did it on purpose just to help the Celtic cause.

[DeLorean]

Luckily we know better, that the EPL is still the best league in the world despite all reason and available evidence.

Before I start, I'm not saying which is better. Available evidence would suggest that it's well up there though if we are just basing it on Champions League stats. Let's take the last ten seasons and the four major leagues, which I think are obviously England, Spain, Italy and Germany. In addition to the table, both England and Spain have had five different quarter finalists in the period, which is a quarter of their respective top divisions. Impressive enough really. Italy have had four and there have only been two from Germany. The Sky Sports and tabloid driven 'best league in the world' thing annoys me too but it doesn't necessarily mean it's always completely wrong. A pet hate of mine is when the commentators remind us that a game isn't over because "this is the Premier League where anything can happen", as if it's the only league with late goals and incidents. I don't think there's much in it either way between England and Spain, but obviously Spain have the outstanding club of the period. In fact, the Real Madrid team at the beginning of the period was better than anything England have produced as well.



2002/03 - 2011/12

ENGLAND

SPAIN

ITALY

GERMANY



Winners

3

3

3

NIL



Runners-up

5

NIL

2

2



No. of winning clubs

3

1

2

NIL



Semi finalists

15

11

7

3



Quarter finalists

24

16

16

7

[Charlie Darwin]

That's mad that Spanish clubs have lost 8 of 11 semis, but then Barca have won each of the three finals they've made.

I know the English league looks the best, or at least top two, based on results but in terms of quality of football I think it's clear the continental sides are pulling ahead technically and tactically - all they need now is the money to attract the high-end players the EPL does.

[SkStu]

I'd like to see the Europa League stats, I think they're relevant to the discussion.

[geysir]

It took about 5 seasons after the CL format begun 1992/3, before an EPL club made it into the last 8.
I suppose the money began to kick in by then.

[Closed Account 2]

Personally I think the German League is better than the Spanish League. Obviously Barcelona and Real Madrid are very strong teams, and probably both are in top 5 in terms of European club sides. But its interesting to note that last year Real Madrid were knocked out by a German team who had to qualify for the group stage via the play-offs - Bayern finished 3rd in 2010-11, and so had to beat Zuerich in the playoffs. Much is made of the fact that all 4 Spanish teams have made it through the group stage this year, it's interesting to note that 2 of those four (Real and Valenica) finished 2nd in their groups behind German teams (Dortmund and Bayern) - indeed all three of the German teams topped their groups (Schalke finished ahead of Arsenal) - the 4th team, Galdbach, were knocked by an 88th min goal in Kiev. Now that Germany has eclipsed Italy and has 4 teams in the CL, German clubs will get more of a run at the CL, boosting their seeding and meaning teams like Dortmund will not longer be placed as bottom seeds in groups of death, German clubs should get stronger and stronger in the CL.

If you take the leagues themselves, then the Spanish league is fairly uncompetitive in terms of possible winners. In the last years there have only been two winners (Barca and Real), whereas the German League has had three winners (Bayern, Dortmund, Wolfsburg) as has the Premier League (Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City). But the sterile nature of the competitiveness of La Liga is really exposed when you look at the number of unique teams that have finished in the top 3 in the last 5 years. In Spain there are only 4 teams who've finished in the top thee (Barca, Real, Villareal and Valencia), the Premier League is little better with 4 unique top 3 finishing teams in 5 years (Man Utd, Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Arsenal), but the German Bundesliga has 7 (Bayern, Dortmund, Wolfsburg, Bremen, Schalke, Leverkusen and Stuttgart). If you want an exciting league where you cannot easily predict any of the top 3, let alone the order of it, then Germany is far ahead of Spain.

[Closed Account 2]

Here are the league positions by the way:
2007–08 Bayern Munich Werder Bremen Schalke 04
2008–09 VfL Wolfsburg Bayern Munich VfB Stuttgart
2009–10 Bayern Munich Schalke 04 Werder Bremen
2010–11 Borussia Dortmund Bayer Leverkusen Bayern Munich
2011–12 Borussia Dortmund Bayern Munich Schalke 04

2007–08 Man Utd Chelsea Arsenal
2008–09 Man Utd Liverpool Chelsea
2009–10 Chelsea Man Utd Arsenal
2010–11 Man Utd Chelsea Man City
2011–12 Man City Man Utd Arsenal

2007–08 Real Madrid Villarreal Barcelona
2008–09 Barcelona Real Madrid Valencia
2009–10 Barcelona Real Madrid Valencia
2010–11 Barcelona Real Madrid Valencia
2011–12 Real Madrid Barcelona Valencia

[geysir]

La Liga may not be competitive re who wins the title, but the overall standard is very high.
EL final 2012 2 La Liga teams.
I think you can safely say that Ath Madrid have a superb team and judging by the games that Barca are involved in La Liga compared to the CL, you can easily see where they really have to sweat as distinct from almost total domination.

[DeLorean]

I'd like to see the Europa League stats, I think they're relevant to the discussion.



2002/03 - 2011/12
ENGLAND
SPAIN
ITALY
GERMANY


Winners
NIL

5
NIL
NIL


Runners-up
2
2
NIL
1


No. of winning clubs
NIL
3
NIL
NIL


Semi finalists
4
11
3
5


Quarter finalists
8
15
5
11

[OwlsFan]

2002/03 - 2011/12
ENGLAND
SPAIN
ITALY
GERMANY


Winners
NIL

5
NIL
NIL


Runners-up
2
2
NIL
1


No. of winning clubs
NIL
3
NIL
NIL


Semi finalists
4
11
3
5


Quarter finalists
8
15
5
11



The trouble about the Europa League stats is that they represent how well the reserve teams of the sides (English anyway) have got on in that competition. In other words it is the League Cup of European Football.

[DeLorean]

Yeah I'm not sure they tell much of a story. The three Spanish sides which have won the competition, Atletico, Valencia and Sevilla are probably most comparable to Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs in the PL. Arsenal have been in the Champions League knock-outs for the past 13 seasons now so they never had an opportunity to do anything in the Europa. Liverpool have had extensive runs in the Champions League also and would have probably won the Europa instead of Atletico in 2010 only for a late Forlan goal at Anfield in the semi final. Spurs and two time winners Sevilla had a decent battle in the 2007 quarter final. Middlesbrough and Fulham are the two PL clubs to actually reach the final and they would be more comparable with Spanish sides likes Levante or Betis. What I mean is that Sevilla and Atletico beating Boro and Fulham would be about as expected as Arsenal beating Levante.

For the majority of the past decade I would come to this conclusion:

Barcelona > Man Utd
Real Madrid < Chelsea
Valencia < Arsenal
Atletico Madrid < Liverpool
Sevilla > Spurs

As for the rest of the clubs we don't really have any stats to base assumptions on.

[geysir]

The stats over the last 10 seasons are one thing. If you look at a pattern over 20 years it shows a gradual rise, followed by good years and now that prominence is being rattled. I think the EPL managed to catch up with the other leagues and perform well, in a bubble of debt and tv subscriber money, now the other leagues have moved ahead and the football being played in the BL, La Liga and Serie A, is way ahead of what you get in the EPL.

The gulf between the EPL and the other top european leagues was in evidence last season, even if the stats show that Chelsea won the CL. That gulf looks to have widened this season. I wouldn't brush away the manner in which Man City and Man U were outplayed last season in the EL, as a league cup type performance. It remains to be seen what happens to the EPL clubs still left in European competition this season. As I see it, Man U are one of the weakest of the group winners and weaker than some of the 2nd place teams.

[DeLorean]

Not sure about that Geysir really. Things don't change that fast and it's only about 18 months since United hammered Schalke 6-1 in the Champions League semi final. You can't brush that away any more than the Athletic Bilbao defeat last season. There's a bit of a buzz about Dortmund right now, but United have been pretty much a constant force in recent times. It remains to be seen whether they are one of the weaker group winners but I think that's a harsh enough statement about a club that have contested three of the last five finals. Only Barcelona from the group winners have earned the right to be considered stronger in my opinion. Dortmund, Bayern and Juve are obviously strong too though along with Real and maybe Shakhtar from the second placed teams.

[squareball]

If you take the leagues themselves, then the Spanish league is fairly uncompetitive in terms of possible winners. In the last years there have only been two winners (Barca and Real), whereas the German League has had three winners (Bayern, Dortmund, Wolfsburg) as has the Premier League (Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City). But the sterile nature of the competitiveness of La Liga is really exposed when you look at the number of unique teams that have finished in the top 3 in the last 5 years. In Spain there are only 4 teams who've finished in the top thee (Barca, Real, Villareal and Valencia), the Premier League is little better with 4 unique top 3 finishing teams in 5 years (Man Utd, Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Arsenal), but the German Bundesliga has 7 (Bayern, Dortmund, Wolfsburg, Bremen, Schalke, Leverkusen and Stuttgart). If you want an exciting league where you cannot easily predict any of the top 3, let alone the order of it, then Germany is far ahead of Spain.

Since 2002/03 there have been 11 teams who have finished in the top 4 and 3 different winners in La Liga. In the same period in England there has been 8 teams and 4 different winners. Bundesliga has 10 teams and 5 different winners. Serie A has 10 different top 4 teams and 3 winners. This shows there is very little between the competitiveness between leagues in Spain, Germany, England and Italy. I took the top 4 because they are the Champions league places. Arsenal have made the top 4 every season but are no where near being title contenders for the last few seasons. In Spain there is a big gap from 2nd and 3rd over the last few years but the rest of the league is more competitive with Villareal going from CL qualifiers to being relegated the following season. In Spain the top two are a lot stronger than most teams and would probably be that far ahead of the rest if they were in any other league.

[geysir]

It's just an opinion and much remains to be decided on the pitch to support that opinion.

No doubt, when the opinion has proven to have (more) merit, we can discuss the decline of the EPL at a future date :)

[Charlie Darwin]

I agree with geysir. I think the only thing keeping sides like Man U and Chelsea up is the fact they have the money to attract world class players in their prime, as opposed to clubs like Dortmund that actually produce them.

[DeLorean]

Yeah that's a given. The Dortmund model is much more commendable but I was speaking purely from a 'who are better' point of view. As Geysir says, time will tell... well it might not but it should give us a better idea.

[Closed Account 2]

Since 2002/03 there have been 11 teams who have finished in the top 4 and 3 different winners in La Liga. In the same period in England there has been 8 teams and 4 different winners. Bundesliga has 10 teams and 5 different winners. Serie A has 10 different top 4 teams and 3 winners. This shows there is very little between the competitiveness between leagues in Spain, Germany, England and Italy. I took the top 4 because they are the Champions league places. Arsenal have made the top 4 every season but are no where near being title contenders for the last few seasons. In Spain there is a big gap from 2nd and 3rd over the last few years but the rest of the league is more competitive with Villareal going from CL qualifiers to being relegated the following season. In Spain the top two are a lot stronger than most teams and would probably be that far ahead of the rest if they were in any other league.

A bit of an over-simplification. For all but last year, only the top 3 German clubs had the chance of the CL. The teams that finished 4th in that 9 years included teams as diverse as Stuttgart, HSV, Hertha, Bayern, Hannover - all missed out on the CL in those respective years. Incidently last year Italy fell below Germany in the UEFA club ranking and so it was Lazio who missed out in 4th.

While a lot of people mention how Sky pumps the Premier League out, and how heavily it's advertised on tv. It should also be said that Sky also pumps La Liga out nearly as frequently (around 3-4 matches of both each weekend) albeit with marginally less publicity and with the sterile and wooden Scott Minto struggling valiantly with his autocue. La Liga is almost as available to a passive fan via TV as the Premier League, and is a lot more readily available than the Bundesliga or Serie A.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Despite their 'mediocre' CL record, in the long-term German football's surely in a more healthy financial state than their English counterparts.
Though the latter have attracted some amazing players on occasion...

[Closed Account 2]

The draw:

Galatasaray v FC Schalke
Celtic v Juventus
Arsenal v Bayern Munich
Shakthar Donetsk v Borussia Dortmund
AC Milan v Barcelona
Real Madrid v Manchester United
Valencia v Paris Saint-Germain
FC Porto v Malaga

Some good matches there, for me Dortmund v Shakhtar is the tie of the round, probably the two most dyanmic sides in the Champions League based on the group stage this season. The English teams look to have got hard games, Madrid and Bayern are top draw sides, but Bayern slipped a bit in their first match to BATE, and also at this stage last year they wobbled away in Basle (before smashing them at home). I think every team winning the above matches will be hoping for Porto/Malaga in the next round (or maybe Schalke v Galatasaray).

[BonnieShels]

The draw:

Galatasaray v FC Schalke
Celtic v Juventus
Arsenal v Bayern Munich
Shakthar Donetsk v Borussia Dortmund
AC Milan v Barcelona
Real Madrid v Manchester United
Valencia v Paris Saint-Germain
FC Porto v Malaga

Some good matches there, for me Dortmund v Shakhtar is the tie of the round, probably the two most dyanmic sides in the Champions League based on the group stage this season. The English teams look to have got hard games, Madrid and Bayern are top draw sides, but Bayern slipped a bit in their first match to BATE, and also at this stage last year they wobbled away in Basle (before smashing them at home). I think every team winning the above matches will be hoping for Porto/Malaga in the next round (or maybe Schalke v Galatasaray).

See geysir it's not just me!

[geysir]

Yes Bonnie, based on this season.
I do note your observation skills are lacking, and also earlier in the thread when I commended Dortmund as a transformed team from last year's CL efforts. Meanwhile, you were hiding sheepishly in the background, afraid to play the Dortmund card a second time in a row, after last year's embarrassment.

[BonnieShels]

Yes Bonnie, based on this season.
I do note your observation skills are lacking, and also earlier in the thread when I commended Dortmund as a transformed team from last year's CL efforts. Meanwhile, you were hiding sheepishly in the background, afraid to play the Dortmund card a second time in a row, after last year's embarrassment.

I thought I commented on your commendation of Dortmund. And I'm sure I mentioned something about my disastrous judgement last year. I also believe I may have said something on several occasions this season. Though it's hard to remember, what with life going on outside of here. Lighten up man It's Christmas and the world may end tomorrow. Win win!

[geysir]

I am light or already lit.

Got you on the defensive fast enough.

[DeLorean]

Great draw. Tie of the round obviously is Man Utd v Real Madrid (I don't care if it is a Sky Sports wet dream).

[BonnieShels]

I am light or already lit.

Got you on the defensive fast enough.

What's the slowest acceptable speed of defence?

[DeLorean]

Dortmund v Shakhtar is the tie of the round

I know you seem to have a particular interest in Russian/Ukrainian football. It's been a pretty poor few weeks PR-wise. Luiz Adriano's disgraceful antics against Nordsjælland and Zenit's biggest fan group's racist requests. The Zenit thing, in particular, must be a fairly big embarrassment with St. Petersburg being one of the potential host cities for the 2018 WC. This should surely put them out of the running?

Incidentally, Liverpool have been drawn against them in the Europa League last 32.

[BonnieShels]

There is no way given St Petersburg is Putin's hometown that it will not be a host city.

[DeLorean]

There is no way given St Petersburg is Putin's hometown that it will not be a host city.

Didn't know that. Could be fun if Ghana or some crowd are drawn there!

[Charlie Darwin]

So we'll likely have all the English sides out of the Champions League come the quarters. Watch Irish TV stations flounder as they struggle to figure out which games between superior European sides will attract moderate interest.

[DeLorean]

Think it will be pretty straight forward, especially if the winners of Galatasaray/Schalke and Porto/Malaga are kept apart and play on different nights. Also, if United have Vidic back playing regularly by then I reckon they would have a pretty decent chance against Real.

[the bear]

What's the slowest acceptable speed of defence?

Darren O'Dea according to Trap.

A lot of the bigger names drawn together early, could lead to a smaller team in the final this year. Some good ties there. I fancy Celtic for an upset against Juve. Is who the winners face in the next round already decided or do they do another draw?

[Closed Account 2]

I know you seem to have a particular interest in Russian/Ukrainian football. It's been a pretty poor few weeks PR-wise. Luiz Adriano's disgraceful antics against Nordsjælland and Zenit's biggest fan group's racist requests. The Zenit thing, in particular, must be a fairly big embarrassment with St. Petersburg being one of the potential host cities for the 2018 WC. This should surely put them out of the running?

Incidentally, Liverpool have been drawn against them in the Europa League last 32.

Adriano was pretty poor against the Danish team, he shouldn't have done that and when he did Stepanenko should have let the Danes walk in a cancelling goal. Although the Danish player went down easily after minimal contact with the Shakhtar midfielder to start the whole thing, either way the storm over that has pretty much blown over and luckily it was against the weakest team in the group and in a match that was an easy victory for Shakhtar so it didnt materially affect the group in the end.

I havent read exacty what the Zenit fans were saying about the make up of the team, but sadly they have a very miliant section of "ultras" who are racist and bad behaviour does happen occasionally with these fans. Porto have similar problems with a group of "ultras" fans that heckle opposition players of different races. There is also a big section of the Zenit fans who want to see more Russian and, specifically, more St. Petersburg born players playing for them. I don't know if this "memorandum" the fans issued was the former or the latter. Racism is an issue in Russia's big cities (especially against central asians from places like Krygizstan, Uzbeckistan etc), but I think most fans who go to the World Cup games over there will be a mix of families and foreign fans - there havent been major racial issues in Russia's national team home games (as opposed to the club games) which have been played in places like St Petersburg, Moscow and Voronezh. Remember there where a lot of people saying there would be issues in the Ukraine in the summer but in the end it was largely without incident.

I think that match will be a great one as both Shakhtar and Dortmund play superb attacking football. They are dynamic in the sense that they can mix up their games in a way other teams (like Barcelona, Arsenal, Man City) etc cannot. Both have gifted midfielders (like Gotze, Willian, Mkhitaryan, Reus) who can play a short passing game, but they also have the pace on the wings (Błaszczykowski, Grosskreutz, Douglas Costa) and the aerial threat to go more direct and in players like Fernandinho, Srna, Schmelzer and Gundogan have players who can hit an accurate defense splitting ball.

[Closed Account 2]

Darren O'Dea according to Trap.

A lot of the bigger names drawn together early, could lead to a smaller team in the final this year. Some good ties there. I fancy Celtic for an upset against Juve. Is who the winners face in the next round already decided or do they do another draw?

No, it's only the Europa League where they drew two rounds in one go. The next round of CL is not drawn yet - that draw will happen after the games in March. And also there is no country or group protection, so Schalke can draw Dortmund, and Celtic could face Barca again if they all get through this round.

[the bear]

Just googling Celtics path to the final for the Lisbon Lions year. they played FC Zurich, FC Nantes, FK Vojvodina(Yugoslavia), Dukla Prague & Inter Milan. That looks more like a path to qualifying for the group stages these days.

[DeLorean]

Just googling Celtics path to the final for the Lisbon Lions year. they played FC Zurich, FC Nantes, FK Vojvodina(Yugoslavia), Dukla Prague & Inter Milan. That looks more like a path to qualifying for the group stages these days.

Yeah, I suppose the likes of Nantes would have a lot of the top French players and Vojvodina the top Yugoslavs, etc. but these players are just sold to the top leagues the second they show a bit of potential these days. Pretty sad state of affairs really but that's the way it goes.


I havent read exacty what the Zenit fans were saying about the make up of the team

Zenit St Petersburg want black and gay players excluded (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20770678)

[Charlie Darwin]

The BBC left out the most mental part of the statement for some reason.

They quote this: "The absence of black Zenit players is just an important tradition that underlines the team's identity and nothing more."

But they leave out the part immediately before: "We are not racists, and for us..."

I'm not making this up.

[DeLorean]

Yeah, well spotted. (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/soccer/2012/12/17/zenit-fans-demand-all-white-non-gay-team/1774999/) The BBC leaving these few words out is almost as bizarre as the Zenit fans claiming they're not actually racist.

[geysir]

It's an exciting last 16 draw, no doubt. But an unfortunate draw for Milan, who have got their season together and have been on a roll since they beat Juve last month with the help of a fortunate penalty.
Hasta la vista for Man U and Arsenal.
Celtic, no matter who they drew were going to be the outsiders. The last time they were in Turin for a CL game, they should have got the draw but for a late atrocious penalty decision.
Ironically, the same ref who was so just and honourable to us against the Netherlands 2001.