FAI finances

[BonnieShels]

New accounts published today.

JD paid over 400k which is a reduction of 7.5% on 2010.
His wage reduction is lower than that of the average reduction within the organisation of 13.5%.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0705/1224319429390.html

So there ya go...

[Macy]

Not to defend Delaney (that salary is undefendable anyway imo), but the wage bill reduced by 13.5% rather than wages going down by 13.5%. Probably the lowest paid getting laid off, to maintain salaries at the top (like many other organisations do).

[Dodge]

6 staff gone. Each probably paid about the same as JD reduction

[BonnieShels]

I honestly cant see how he can justify the cash. I really can't.
If he was the head of the DFB you know, the largest sporting association on the planet it would be just about justifiable. And even then.

[Acornvilla]

I heard something along the lines that if we finished 3rd in our euros group, that meant an extra 2 mill in prize money for the FAI, which was going to be used to re employ some of their development officers.. There as bad as some of the worse offending LOI teams in the past, relying on unexpected footballing results to sustain their business model.. By the way this info came from a laid off coach of theirs. Can't believe JD couldn't cut his own wage to even 200k, for the love of god what does he even do with that much money.

[tetsujin1979]

are there any public financial records for the GAA or IRFU, so we could do a compare and contrast?

[Serb]

€400k for the head of our football association is ridiculous. The head of the English FA is paid around £300k (€375k) and is managing a much larger operation. It's not the salary alone that annoys me about him, it's his attitude, out getting **** faced with the lads on tour. You don't see videos of David Bernstein or Wolfgang Niersbach on YouTube, ****ed, saying, "Lads, lads, you're ****ing brilliant." or whatever he was spouting. I dunno, I just really dislike the guy. He's the face of cronyism for me.

[bennocelt]

Can't believe JD couldn't cut his own wage to even 200k, for the love of god what does he even do with that much money.

Buys Irish fans pints in bars on the continent

[Dodge]

They can't even argue that that's the 'going rate' for top level executive as he came up through the bowels of the FAI.

Not saying i'd agree with that thinking but its certainly 'an excuse' which they could use (ie "well to lure the head of Aer Lingus we needed to pay him what he could expect on the market...)

[jbyrne]

Buys Irish fans pints in bars on the continent

and its working for him. talked to a number of fans in Poland who thought he was great citing his bonding with the fans as the main reason. Not a mention of developing the game in Ireland, just the hiring of the free train in Slovakia, free pints and ticket raffles! crazy

[Stuttgart88]

I'm trying to let my personal suspicions / opinions out of it for now, but what I was trying to achieve in the FAI Governance thread was to establish:

(a) even if we make the assumption that JD is a saint with a foolproof vision for Irish football, is the FAI's governance structure allowing vested interests to block this vision?
(b) is JD just in a cosy cartel with the grass roots who have a caveman approach to development? Sucking up to them keeps him in his 400k p.a. job;
(c) Or are we somewhere in between those two extremes?

[barney]

To me, 400k is obscene. Like others say, it would be interesting to see what other people (in other sports and other countries) are paid in comparison. That's the only way you can add a bit of context I suppose.

I don't really know how good Delaney is at his job - most of us probably don't really and I'm reluctant to just say "He's crap and he's taking the p!ss". That said, all this rubbish with him drinking in Poland, spending money on the fans and that stuff - I just get the sense that John Delaney has been trying all his life to be "one of the lads" and he's now having some joy.

[jbyrne]

(b) is JD just in a cosy cartel with the grass roots who have a caveman approach to development? Sucking up to them keeps him in his 400k p.a. job;


in my experience this option.

while i have a lot of time for the lads who run the league I am involved with I dont think they are too concerned (probably rightly so) with getting the best deals and representation for their own league than the overall Irish football picture. Id say JD has all such league committees right where he wants them and they are scared of rocking the boat. I have nothing substantial to offer in support of this view but its an opinion I have built up in my 15 years league involvement.

[Macy]

I'm trying to let my personal suspicions / opinions out of it for now, but what I was trying to achieve in the FAI Governance thread was to establish:

(a) even if we make the assumption that JD is a saint with a foolproof vision for Irish football, is the FAI's governance structure allowing vested interests to block this vision?
(b) is JD just in a cosy cartel with the grass roots who have a caveman approach to development? Sucking up to them keeps him in his 400k p.a. job;
(c) Or are we somewhere in between those two extremes?
(b) I'm not aware of any attempt to make changes to (a), which I'd expect if a CEO wasn't happy with the structure. We've had window dressing of the board, that's about it.

[Exiledrover]

Delaney's biggest mistake was the debacle with the ticket sales for the Aviva. He seems to have gotten an extremely easy ride over this.

This debacle has landed the FAI with huge debts and interest payments that there was no need for if ticket sales were handled correctly.

[Charlie Darwin]

€400k for the head of our football association is ridiculous. The head of the English FA is paid around £300k (€375k) and is managing a much larger operation. It's not the salary alone that annoys me about him, it's his attitude, out getting **** faced with the lads on tour. You don't see videos of David Bernstein or Wolfgang Niersbach on YouTube, ****ed, saying, "Lads, lads, you're ****ing brilliant." or whatever he was spouting. I dunno, I just really dislike the guy. He's the face of cronyism for me.
I agree 400k is a ridiculous salary for the job that he does, but the size of the organisation is largely irrelevant. At the end of the day, both are running large football organisations full time and neither job justifies the salary involved.


They can't even argue that that's the 'going rate' for top level executive as he came up through the bowels of the FAI.

Not saying i'd agree with that thinking but its certainly 'an excuse' which they could use (ie "well to lure the head of Aer Lingus we needed to pay him what he could expect on the market...)
It was the same rationale RTE used to justify paying 100k+ to Pat Kenny and Gerry Ryan while they were laying off staff left and right. As if we were to believe Pat had to be paid as much as the President to fend off all that interest from BBC and CNN.

[geysir]

are there any public financial records for the GAA or IRFU, so we could do a compare and contrast?

The GAA president is voted in for a 3 year tenure, he receives a salary, the same salary he was receiving in the job he had prior to the presidency. The present president, Cooney, happened to be a FAS official :) his 3 year leave of absence from that post will cost the GAA a total of €470k over the whole 3 years.
When the Congress vote for a president they are made aware as to what the salary will accrue to.

Delaney's salary is an issue but it is only one issue. With the FAI, income from international football is the cash cow and that has been hit by a number of obvious factors. The most important figure is what's left after all bills are paid, to be poured/trickled back into the game. The FAI figure is abysmally low.
The GAA income for 2010 was €58m and dropped to €47m in 2011, a drop which reflected no rental income from FAI IRFU and less lucrative sponsorship.
Some 80% of that revenue is poured back into the game.From that 2010 income, €37m in funding and €9m Games development was put back into the game.

[paul_oshea]

LIam O'Neill is the current president christy cooney is gone.

But its more the PR guy mulivihill or whatever is proper title that id be measuring. He is on about 120k. Still nowhere near Delaney.

[geysir]

That's a fair enough point. I'd say if you're talking about an equivalent post, the GAA president is the equivalent of the FAI CEO, at least since Quinn was GAA president in the early 90's, the president's role is full time, active, high profile and guides the whole show. The FAI puppet president is, who? :)
Mulvihill was the director general, retired since a few years. The DG is regarded as an employee and people would not take too kindly to GAA staff expressing views publicly. No way would he be a frontman for the GAA, talking about rule 42 etc, like you get with JD.

The pertinent point is the amount of income that goes back into the game. The FAI have obvious financial issues but yet I think there is a need for a budget to reflect that a minimum % of income goes back into the game, a mandatory obligation and that becomes part of the budget rather than distribute the crumbs that are left over.
8 more years is a long time to wait before there can be a decent stream of income from the FAI to the game.

[Stuttgart88]

Paddy McCaul is Hon President I think.

Nationality: Irish
Date of birth: 16 September 1955
Association president since: 2010

• Paddy McCaul served for ten years as a committee member and then chairman with Athlone Town FC, who won league titles in 1980/81 and 1982/83, and was voted in as chairman of the League of Ireland in 2005, overseeing its merger with the Football Association of Ireland (FAI).

• A hotelier by profession, McCaul has three sons and one daughter, and members of his family have represented Ireland outside of football as a double act of his niece Donna and nephew Joe McCaul competed in the Eurovision Song Contest.

• Taking over the post as FAI president in 2010, McCaul said: "The FAI see the next four or five years as crucial for the ongoing development and progression of the organisation. With our new stadium in Dublin and a nationwide network of football development officers, we look forward to working with all of our partners to increase participation levels across Ireland."

Source: www.unclesofunknowneurovisionparticpants.eu

Alternative source: http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/association=irl/news/newsid=1592076.html

[Eminence Grise]

Assuming you quoted McCaul's biog in the same sequence as its source, Stutts, I'm a bit worried that whoever wrote it thought that mentioning his brother's kids sang in the Eurovision was worth putting before his vision for the game in Ireland... Priorities, huh?

[Alf Honn]

Assuming you quoted McCaul's biog in the same sequence as its source, Stutts, I'm a bit worried that whoever wrote it thought that mentioning his brother's kids sang in the Eurovision was worth putting before his vision for the game in Ireland... Priorities, huh?

Remember the time when it was the FAI president who spoke on behalf of the FAI? Milo Corcoran, Pat Quigley etc. That's still the case in the GAA but not in FAI.

Delaney told the Sunday Independent that he's the voice of the FAI now. Due to his mismanagement, the FAI is a financial trainwreck and it seems there's a conflict of interest in him telling the world how rosy everything is when the evidence shows the opposite case.

Don't think I've ever heard Paddy McCaul's voice on tele or radio!

Wouldn't it be interesting to have his take on the CEO's tomfoolery in Poland? Or even the 400k salary? Or any views on serious challenges facing the FAI based upon the latest accounts.

Perhaps there could be a petition here to try get a Q&A with the President.

[Stuttgart88]

That'd be very interesting.

JD says that he'd answer about his socialising to the Board of Management if asked.

More salary benchmarking here:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/fai-chief-earns-250k-more-than-spain-and-italy-rivals-3160384.html

[Junior]

I 'like' the response on the Grants to member clubs and leagues. Massaging of the numbers would be a polite way of putting it!


From the Times...

The accounts also show that the FAI cut the grant aid paid to soccer clubs and leagues around the State by €377,000 last year due largely to the spiralling costs of servicing its debts from the redevelopment of the Aviva Stadium.....

......This resulted in the grant aid paid to affiliates being reduced to just over €1 million last year from €1.4 million in 2010.


From the Independent..

Meanwhile, the FAI last night denied it had cut grants to clubs and leagues by €377,000 in 2011. This figure was contained in an Irish Times report which said it had obtained a copy of the association's accounts to be presented to the AGM on July 21.......

.......No comment was forthcoming from the FAI on the salary amounts mentioned, but a brief statement refuted the notion that grants had been reduced in 2011, stating: "The FAI has not cut club grants by €377,000 between 2011 and 2010.

"In reality, the grants paid out amounted to €1.2m in both 2010 and 2011 and this can be vouched by the independent auditors.

"Under the relevant line item (development and operating grants to affiliates), the accounts show a lower amount in 2011 due to an accrual or over provision reported in the 2010 accounts which was actually paid out to clubs and leagues in 2011. This can also be vouched by the independent auditors."


To 'over provide' in 2010 by €0.2m (17% of the €1.2m payment) seems excessive and for it to be signed off by the auditors a little bizarre. For the auditors to sign off on a €1.4m cost in 2010 I would suggest that was the true cost of grants in 2010 that had been presented to them by the FAI Finance team (whether that money had actually been passed down at that point is largely irrelevant and simply down to timing of cash exchanging hands).

As we move on to 2011 and the FAI realise they dont have the cash to meet a similar €1.4m commitment for grants in 2010 they simply hand over less money (cut grants) and release the 'over accrual' from 2010.

Either way something is amiss imo. Either 2010 accounts were misleading to suggest €1.4m of grants were being handed down to member clubs or the explanation for the 2011 reduction is also misleading (quite materially imo).

[A N Mouse]

I 'like' the response on the Grants to member clubs and leagues. Massaging of the numbers would be a polite way of putting it!


From the Times...

The accounts also show that the FAI cut the grant aid paid to soccer clubs and leagues around the State by €377,000 last year due largely to the spiralling costs of servicing its debts from the redevelopment of the Aviva Stadium.....

......This resulted in the grant aid paid to affiliates being reduced to just over €1 million last year from €1.4 million in 2010.


From the Independent..

Meanwhile, the FAI last night denied it had cut grants to clubs and leagues by €377,000 in 2011. This figure was contained in an Irish Times report which said it had obtained a copy of the association's accounts to be presented to the AGM on July 21.......

.......No comment was forthcoming from the FAI on the salary amounts mentioned, but a brief statement refuted the notion that grants had been reduced in 2011, stating: "The FAI has not cut club grants by €377,000 between 2011 and 2010.

"In reality, the grants paid out amounted to €1.2m in both 2010 and 2011 and this can be vouched by the independent auditors.

"Under the relevant line item (development and operating grants to affiliates), the accounts show a lower amount in 2011 due to an accrual or over provision reported in the 2010 accounts which was actually paid out to clubs and leagues in 2011. This can also be vouched by the independent auditors."


To 'over provide' in 2010 by €0.2m (17% of the €1.2m payment) seems excessive and for it to be signed off by the auditors a little bizarre. For the auditors to sign off on a €1.4m cost in 2010 I would suggest that was the true cost of grants in 2010 that had been presented to them by the FAI Finance team (whether that money had actually been passed down at that point is largely irrelevant and simply down to timing of cash exchanging hands).

As we move on to 2011 and the FAI realise they dont have the cash to meet a similar €1.4m commitment for grants in 2010 they simply hand over less money (cut grants) and release the 'over accrual' from 2010.

Either way something is amiss imo. Either 2010 accounts were misleading to suggest €1.4m of grants were being handed down to member clubs or the explanation for the 2011 reduction is also misleading (quite materially imo).

So Monaghan didn't overspend this year. They underspent last year?

simples

[Crosby87]

Just for arguments sake what would happen if the FAI could not pay its bills anymore and collapsed? Could there be a situation where Ireland would not field a team?

[Dodge]

Just for arguements sake what would happen if the FAI could not pay its bills anymore and collapsed? Could there be a situation where Ireland would not firled a team?

Yes. If they can't pay their way, the team can't travel etc etc.

Won't happen though

[Junior]

Yes. If they can't pay their way, the team can't travel etc etc.

Won't happen though

Playing devils advocate here but why are you so sure? Because Government intervention would stop it happening? Another footballing body saddled with half the debt the FAI has (though I appreciate completely different operating revenues and expenses) has recently gone under.

At what cost would the FAI continue to field its international team(s) should money become tighter...at the expense of another Monaghan, Dundalk? (i.e. reducing the money going back to the member clubs)

[Charlie Darwin]

The national team is the association's only source of income. They would make cuts in every single area before they sacrificed the national side.

[Dodge]

At what cost would the FAI continue to field its international team(s) should money become tighter...at the expense of another Monaghan, Dundalk? (i.e. reducing the money going back to the member clubs)

As Charlie said the only thing that makes money for the FAI si the senior team, so they'd hold onto that card for as long as possible.

For the record the FAI invest €0 into league clubs as is. 'Prize' money is less than current league affiliation fees.

[Junior]

So out of interest the €1.4m (2010) or €1.0m (2011) is not necessarily going to league clubs as such but more the grassroots / junior leagues etc.. - Correct?

The League, in essence, pays for itself by way of affiliation fees from the participating clubs without any need for subsidy from the FAI? That would be surprising if thats the case.

[Stuttgart88]

That's staggering. The clubs pay more to enter the league than the FAI pays out? That might be OK if there was no sponsor, but there is.

[Junior]

I read that Bohs would earn more by qualifying for the next round in europe over the next week than they would by winning the league. Success in one pre-qualification round of europe delivers a better financial dividend than winning a 30 odd game season championship!!

[paul_oshea]

Id say thats Gross, net would be different after flights and accomodation to Iceland and all the other craic is taken into account.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah, it is gross. The €90k (I think) UEFA gives clubs is to cover the expenses of holding and travelling to the games. If the other team decides, for instance, to hold the game on an island or another location only accessible by a chartered flight, the club may end up spending the entire amount just getting to the game. This has happened Bohs a few times, I believe, and Pat's this time around.

[Stuttgart88]

So how does qualifying for yurp or winning the league compare to the weekly wage of an unremarkable footballer like James Milner?

[Charlie Darwin]

Winning the league would probably pay Milner's wages for about 4 or 5 days.

[Junior]

But is it not more to do with an additional home game ticket sales, match day sales, possible tv revenue etc.etc.. I cant find the article now, just this one but it doesnt mention the money side of things http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0707/1224319600141.html

I know all that wouldnt add up to much but may be 25k-40k (I guessing here). It would start to make sense then.....

[horton]

On an unrelated note to the above discussion, I heard Mr Delaney was in Coppers monday night.:eek:

[Eminence Grise]

On an unrelated note to the above discussion, I heard Mr Delaney was counting Coppers monday night.:eek:

Fixed that for you. Times are hard y'know!

[Crosby87]

Appologize if this is a stupid question but the teams in the LOI do not have owners?

[Charlie Darwin]

They all have owners. Some are owned by private individuals (such as St Pat's and Dundalk) and others by fan-owned entities, like Shamrock Rovers and Bohemians. There are probably more fan-run clubs around now than owned by individuals.

[elroy]

I believe that pats got 90k for their progress in Europe the other night.

Delaney's wage is gross and excessive. He wouldn't get that wage in a plc. 200k should be more than enough for head of a football association of a small country that doesn't have a full professional league.

If the fans and ordinary football public had any power in the fai, he would not be in such a wage, particularly in these times.

[Stuttgart88]

Miguel Delaney on FAI finances ahead of AGM

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/fai-accounts-to-top-agenda-at-agm-201416.html

It'll be interesting what is reported from the AGM

[Junior]

A bit of a rehash of the 2 pertinent financial points from the last few weeks. JD's salary / Cutting of Club Grants.

Out of interest is the AGM an open public event? - Its not like they have shareholders that I am aware of or is it just media/club representatives etc...

Anyone attending?

[Stuttgart88]

I suspect it's only open to Council members - who are effectively the shareholders.

[cornflakes]

More layoffs in the FAI

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/disappointed-hand-latest-highprofile-casualty-of-fai-costcutting-3174157.html (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/disappointed-hand-latest-highprofile-casualty-of-fai-costcutting-3174157.html)


Hand, who had wanted to continue in his role, was informed in April that he was not being offered a contract extension. Instead, the job has been combined with two others -- those of compliance and children's welfare officer -- into just one post.

The new role will be filled by Vincent O'Flaherty, who previously held the compliance position. Former children's officer Michael Lynham has also been let go.

[BonnieShels]

That's insane. Insane carry on.

In any other country...

[Stuttgart88]

I thought this was interesting (IRFU despite running a surplus also have stadium debt issues and there's some risk to the H-Cup due to English and French demanding change).

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/irfu-at-risk-from-doubts-over-heineken-cup-future-201503.html

It's possibly more pertinent in context of the "where next?" thread, as it shows how even a successful product is at risk from the politics of the club game across Europe. I think it highlights the risk associated with a franchise model especially if it is only in context of a few potentially flighty associations rather than a full European-wide breakaway league.

[Junior]

Being reported JD has taken a 10% pay cut on a few blogs. Not looked for official source as yet just throwing out there.....