Governance of the FAI

[seanfhear]

Eh?

Don't understand :confused:Tis a humorous aside ( to myself ) ~ ~ You'll get it in the end.

[texidub]

Those bloody Venture Capitalists have no place in an all island football team ;)

[seanfhear]

Those bloody Venture Capitalists have no place in an all island football team ;)
A Very Competent post !

[Stuttgart88]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2024/04/20/what-to-do-with-the-fai-raze-it-to-the-ground-and-start-again/

What to do with the FAI? ‘Raze it to the ground and start again’
The newly-branded, full-reformed FAI moves at a glacial pace and is set to be without both a men’s manager and a CEO

Gavin Cummiskey 20/4/24

A “structured search” for the next Football Association of Ireland chief executive has begun. It will take at least six months to replace Jonathan Hill. Probably nine months. Maybe longer. The newly-branded, fully-reformed FAI moves at a glacial pace. After Marc Canham’s “existing contractual obligations” comment stalled the reveal of an Ireland manager until “early April,” and that statement proved wholly false, it’s hard to take pronouncements from Abbotstown at face value anymore. Following the departure of Hill last Monday, there is a leadership vacuum across several departments. David Courell’s promotion to interim CEO means there is no chief operating officer. Nor is there a head of communications and marketing.

John O’Shea is contemplating a return as interim Ireland men’s manager for June friendlies against Hungary and Portugal, but what happens thereafter is anybody’s guess.

This begs the question: does Irish football need a debt-specialist-CEO to manage the €50.9 million arrears or someone steeped in politics and football, like Oscar Traynor reborn?

“Everybody is paddling their own canoe,” says Tommy Higgins, the Sligo Rovers chairperson. “The league is flying but the CEO needs to be sorted out as soon as possible, but it’s the debt that is killing them.”

There is plenty of chatter around the inner workings of the FAI. Former Bohemians president John O’Connor tweeted about the CEO “shortlist” this week: “Not sure people appreciate the scale of the challenge.” Plenty of gallows humour tumbled into his replies.

“Imagine letting Michael O’Leary loose in Abbotstown for three years??”

“Give it John Delaney ‘til end of quarter.”

“Sure, like RTÉ, the state will bail them out.”

They already have – €30 million in 2020.

Revisiting former candidates has become a popular pursuit as reports of Lee Carsley, Anthony Barry and Chris Hughton being asked to reconsider their rejection of the Ireland manager’s role in surfaced in recent weeks.
Sarah Keane and John Feehan were apparently Hill’s main rivals four years ago. Keane, the CEO of Swim Ireland, replaced Pat Hickey as the Olympic Federation of Ireland president and will leave that role later this year. Feehan is the current chief of Basketball Ireland, having previously served as the Six Nations and British Lions CEO.

According to Gareth Farrelly, a former Ireland international and litigation lawyer, the current crisis dates back to the Bank of Ireland governor Patrick Kennedy recommending Roy Barrett to become FAI chairperson in 2020. Barrett, in turn, backed Hill to be the CEO.

“Is the FAI in its current form beyond recovery?” Farrelly asks, before answering his own question: “I’d raze it to the ground and start again.

“Look, if we cannot deal with the past, Irish football will never make any forward strides. It goes back to the leadership. How did Roy Barrett get named FAI chair after a conversation with the Bank of Ireland governor when 82 people applied for that position?

“I am getting calls telling me to go for FAI CEO. To be interviewed by these people? The same people who appointed Barrett and Hill?!

“Who put Tony Keohane in as the new chair?”

The General Assembly.

“Who picked him though? It’s the same people.”

“If they had of [sic] gone with someone who went for the role before Barrett was hand-picked, we could be having a very different conversation. If they sacked Stephen Kenny when it was clear he was not right for the job, we could be going to Germany this summer.

“You cannot fix a broken system without dealing with the root causes of how it was broken.”

Farrelly continues: “The media have a lot to answer for here. If someone says it is raining outside but Jonathan Hill tells you the sun is coming out, which is it? You go outside and find out. You do not publish his emailed quotes listing his own achievements as CEO. Especially when you know what really happened.

“The lack of diversity of thought in the FAI is clear for all to see now.”

Maybe the soccer version of former Leinster Rugby CEO Mick Dawson or former GAA Director General Paraic Duffy can be unearthed. On Duffy’s watch, the GAA’s turnover doubled to more than €60 million from 2006 to 2016.
Dawson’s mantra, while creating a European dynasty, was “decide, delegate, disappear.” His connections from Davy Stockbrokers helped fund Leinster’s impressive facility on the UCD campus. Professionalism was accelerated and then maintained by a ready-made academy system in the private schools.

“Look at the people behind these enormously successful Irish sporting bodies,” says Farrelly. “Jim Gavin and Stuart Lancaster were just the tip of iceberg, but they were identified and recruited by people who knew precisely what was needed to become leading entities in their sports.

“What does elite sport look like now?” he asks and answers: “Leinster and Dublin.

“The FAI do have good people in there. [League of Ireland director] Mark Scanlon is a brilliant guy, swimming against the tide all the time, trying to get work done. Stop over-promoting mediocrity, or people who do not care about Irish football.”

Larry Bass, the former Cabinteely FC chairperson, has seen up close how the FAI, and briefly RTÉ as a board member, go about their business. He repeats the Damien Duff line - fund the club academies or die wondering.
“As Cabinteely chair, I had a frightening vista of the FAI under John Delaney,” says Bass, the founder of production company ShinAwil. “That caused me to ask a lot of questions. It is really important that a sports administrator does not court the limelight.

“But the FAI needs a leader. The board is not in the building day to day, and the General Assembly is so vast that the next CEO needs to be a resident in the country.

“A healthy League of Ireland will eventually mean a healthy international team,” he adds. “The proof is in other European countries. If Iceland can provide full-time employment and create jobs in their football industry, you mean to tell me Ireland can’t do the same with its biggest participation sport?”

This requires government funding. The €517 million over 15 years that FAI have asked for will suffice.

“The Government needs to take football seriously simply because it can create jobs,” says Bass. “That requires Government investment, FAI investment, Uefa investment and if that happens private enterprise will come in as soon as they see an industry being built.”

Farrelly has seen history repeat itself too many times, repeating his long-held belief: “Raze it to the ground and start again.”

[Stuttgart88]

While Farrelly is probably right, I was always a bit suspicious about his motives criticising the so-called Visionary Group way back immediately after Delaney fled. There was nothing much wrong with what they were saying: Government should fund football. Build a football industry. Get closer to Government and lobby it better. Football deserves money more than greyhound racing etc etc.

I wasn’t aware Barrett was appointed despite 82 other applicants, though I was aware he was recommended by a senior bloke at Bank of Ireland – who institutionally had some skin in the game.

But Barrett was a football man (of sorts) and had good business pedigree so I was actually optimistic he could stand out among the gombeen men. And on paper Hill had decent credentials.


“Raze it to the ground and start again.” Agreed! I think we’d all like the FAI to be ripped up and replaced by a new one. I think many here said that in the early pages of this thread.


“If they had of [sic] gone with someone who went for the role before Barrett was hand-picked, we could be having a very different conversation. If they sacked Stephen Kenny when it was clear he was not right for the job, we could be going to Germany this summer. .Ifs, buts and maybes…


Dawson’s mantra, while creating a European dynasty, was “decide, delegate, disappear.” His connections from Davy Stockbrokers helped fund Leinster’s impressive facility on the UCD campus. Professionalism was accelerated and then maintained by a ready-made academy system in the private schools. But Barrett was from Goodbody stockbrokers, a similar beast and without the repeated scandals! And while Leinster is brilliantly run, it’s not comparable with what can be achieved in Irish football. It’s substantially IRFU funded and has automatic entry into the best competitions in the planet - all cross-border competitions funded by overseas TV money. Sure, no harm looking at best practise but comparisons aren’t really appropriate imho. And same applies to Leinster’s recruitment: the talent pool is quite limited in rugby. International teams recycle the same elite coaches & managers. The search process is a lot easier I’d say.


“As Cabinteely chair, I had a frightening vista of the FAI under John Delaney. That caused me to ask a lot of questions. It is really important that a sports administrator does not court the limelight.

But the FAI needs a leader. The board is not in the building day to day, and the General Assembly is so vast that the next CEO needs to be a resident in the country.

A healthy League of Ireland will eventually mean a healthy international team. The proof is in other European countries. If Iceland can provide full-time employment and create jobs in their football industry, you mean to tell me Ireland can’t do the same with its biggest participation sport?

The Government needs to take football seriously simply because it can create jobs. That requires Government investment, FAI investment, Uefa investment and if that happens private enterprise will come in as soon as they see an industry being built.”

Amen to that.

[Eirambler]

I think Barrett has gotten off light to be honest. As well as Hill he was supposedly the driving force behind Kenny being left in post to flounder for so long. He apparently continued to back him when anyone who knew anything about football could see he was a busted flush. Barrett did an enormous amount of damage to Irish football in my opinion.

[Stuttgart88]

Probably true, but my point was that on the face of it he had the CV to be the quietly competent non-tribal Chair the FAI needed. What he said about football and the government was 100% right.

[Stav]

Surely something can be learned from the IRFU which is a much smaller organisation and much smaller participation numbers.
They are despite challenging conditions solvent, able to pay down the loan on Lansdowne Road without cap in hand looking for write downs and administer the game fairly efficiently. The sports may not be identical just like the GAA but they are administered very well and that should be the template the FAI put in place and ensure it is carried out. The loss of goodwill and support for the FAI has been huge but it has it within its grasp if it has the resolve to turn it around and act like the organisation that controls the sport with the highest number of participants. Indeed the people to do this are in this country now. Get them in position, give them the power, take whatever flack comes with it and transform the FAI for all the participants.

[Stuttgart88]

Surely something can be learned from the IRFU which is a much smaller organisation and much smaller participation numbers.
They are despite challenging conditions solvent, able to pay down the loan on Lansdowne Road without cap in hand looking for write downs and administer the game fairly efficiently. The sports may not be identical just like the GAA but they are administered very well and that should be the template the FAI put in place and ensure it is carried out. The loss of goodwill and support for the FAI has been huge but it has it within its grasp if it has the resolve to turn it around and act like the organisation that controls the sport with the highest number of participants. Indeed the people to do this are in this country now. Get them in position, give them the power, take whatever flack comes with it and transform the FAI for all the participants.The FAI seems to have modeled itself on the FA, which itself was under pressure to reform after the Burns Report. The FA had around 100 voting stakeholders on its Council, dating back to Victorian times.

FAI's Council is 60 members.


IRFU seems to be much leaner:

The Irish Rugby Football Union is the governing body for the sport of Rugby Union on the island of Ireland. Each affiliated rugby club or school nominates a member to their provincial branch committee and each branch elects members to the IRFU Committee.

FAI Council (from earlier in this thread, 2019 - might be out of date now?):

RULE 14. COMPOSITION OF THE FAI NATIONAL COUNCIL 1. The Council of the Association shall consist of the following representatives: - a) The President of the Association. b) The Vice President of the Association. c) The Chairperson of the FAI National League Executive Committee. d) The Chairperson of the Women’s Football Committee. Part B) Football Association of Ireland Rules effective from 27th July 2019 9 e) Twenty (20) representatives to be appointed by the participant clubs in the Premier and First Division of the FAI National League with each club being entitled to one (1) representative. f) Eight (8) representatives to be appointed by the participant clubs in the Women’s National League with each club having one (1) representative. g) Ten (10) representatives to be appointed by the Leinster Football Association. h) Five (5) representatives to be appointed by the Munster Football Association. i) Two (2) representatives to be appointed by the Connaught Football Association and j) Two (2) representatives to be appointed by the Ulster Football Association. k) Two (2) representatives to be appointed by the FAI Junior Council. l) One (1) representative to be appointed by the Defence Forces. m) One (1) representative to be appointed by the Colleges Football Association. n) Eight (8) representatives to be appointed by the Schoolboys FAI. o) Two (2) representatives to be appointed by the WFC to represent schoolgirls football. p) One (1) representative to be appointed by Irish Universities Football Union. q) Two (2) representatives to be appointed by the Football Association of Irish Schools. r) One (1) representative to be appointed by the Women’s Football Committee to represent adult amateur football. s) One (1) representative to be appointed by the Referees Committee. t) One (1) representative to be appointed by the Irish Soccer Referees Society. u) Two (2) representatives to be appointed by the “Football For All” Body. v) Two (2) player representatives to be appointed by the Players Football Association of Ireland or such other body deemed representative of players. In 2019 the body deemed representative of Players shall be determined and approved by the Board and thereafter it shall be determined and approved by the AGM. w) Two (2) supporter representatives to be appointed by a recognised supporters forum through a representative structure. In 2019 the representative structure shall be determined and approved by the Board and thereafter it shall be determined and approved by the AGM Members. x) Any member of the Board who is not a member of Council shall nevertheless be entitled to attend Council meetings on a non-voting basis.


But again, the IRFU has much easier access to money than the FAI. 6 Nations, WRC, own the stadium... Is it a better run organisation? Yes, by a country mile. Are comaprable RFUs all solvent? No, RFU, WRU and Australia (among others) are almost bust.

Overall though I think rugby v football commercial comparisons aren't really helpful. But, like Farrelly says, raze it and build a new FAI is about right!

[Stuttgart88]

FIFA dictates that governments can't interfere in national FA affairs.

Define "interfere" though. FAs have to follow certain rules or guidelines to secure funding and they have to follow national regulations of all kinds. So all FAs face indirect interference and oversight. I think the FIFA rule is to prevent direct control of FAs by the state.

I'd love to see a full football governance review by an Oirecahtas Committee, not just a series of headlining hearings for TDs to showcase themselves. A comprehensive review of structures and methods ideally arriving at a much leaner, more mission-focused structure. Offer the carrot of significant funding...

[EalingGreen]

FIFA dictates that governments can't interfere in national FA affairs.

Define "interfere" though. FAs have to follow certain rules or guidelines to secure funding and they have to follow national regulations of all kinds. So all FAs face indirect interference and oversight.
The key is that the interference cannot be unwanted i.e. if the Member Association complains to FIFA, then FIFA can - and does - apply "the nuclear option" of complete suspension from FIFA. At which point the Governments in question usually back off, since it is invariably very unpopular within the country at large to see their teams, domestic and NT, at all levels, unable to host any foreign teams or themselves play abroad.

However, what constitutes "unwanted" is key, since often the interference will take the form of: "If you [Member Association] don't do what we [Government] want, then we will withdraw all financial backing and co-operation from your organisation". At which point the MA normally "agrees" to the interference.

Considering the FAI's financial position, this latter is undoubtedly the case here.


I think the FIFA rule is to prevent direct control of FAs by the state. Indeed.

I mean, the likes of Blatter or Infantino can't be doing with Governments looking closely into their affairs, can they? :eek:

[seanfhear]

The key is that the interference cannot be unwanted i.e. if the Member Association complains to FIFA, then FIFA can - and does - apply "the nuclear option" of complete suspension from FIFA. At which point the Governments in question usually back off, since it is invariably very unpopular within the country at large to see their teams, domestic and NT, at all levels, unable to host any foreign teams or themselves play abroad.

However, what constitutes "unwanted" is key, since often the interference will take the form of: "If you [Member Association] don't do what we [Government] want, then we will withdraw all financial backing and co-operation from your organisation". At which point the MA normally "agrees" to the interference.

Considering the FAI's financial position, this latter is undoubtedly the case here.

Indeed.

I mean, the likes of Blatter or Infantino can't be doing with Governments looking closely into their affairs, can they? :eek:
Especially the American Government !

[tetsujin1979]

‘The politics within Irish football is unbelievable’ – FAI assistant director of football Shane Robinson
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/the-politics-within-irish-football-is-unbelievable-fai-assistant-director-of-football-shane-robinson/a350637528.html

[Crosby87]

Well it's not "unbelievable," it is corruption and incompetence and if you are the AD, then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT

[EalingGreen]

FIFA dictates that governments can't interfere in national FA affairs.Further to this discussion:

Spanish government to oversee football federation

Football's world governing body Fifa and European governing body Uefa say they are closely monitoring the situation with great concern.

Fifa regulations state that member nations shall manage their affairs independently and without influence from third parties.

"Fifa and Uefa will seek additional information to assess the extent to which the CSD's appointment of the so-called 'Supervision, Normalisation and Representation Commission' may affect the RFEF's obligation to manage its affairs independently and without undue government interference," they said in a joint statement.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cedxjpw28vlo

It's one thing suspending some minor Caribbean or African federation, but taking on the Spanish? You could sell tickets for that one.

[geysir]

I don't see Uefa getting too much involved,not because Spain is super big but because the crisis situation calls for direct oversight.
Afaiu the Spanish government (most probably through the Spanish National Sports Agency) have appointed a special committee ("independent persons of recognised prestige.") to oversee the function of the FA until new elections are held. All this is in the circumstance when an association cannot manage its own affairs and is the subject of a widespread corruption investigation (https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/68619228) "corruption in business, improper management of assets and money laundering".

Although all that just sounds like a regular day in the Delaney era.

[geysir]

‘The politics within Irish football is unbelievable’ – FAI assistant director of football Shane Robinson
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/the-politics-within-irish-football-is-unbelievable-fai-assistant-director-of-football-shane-robinson/a350637528.html

There's a Malachy Clerkin article (https://archive.ph/gzsKp)about the same story in the IT, with a line
on Will Clarke LOI development manager and Shane Robinson; 'neither of them came peddling guesswork. The situation is dire, everyone knows that. They came to inform you that it’s far, far worse than you think'.

Shane is quoted as saying "The solidarity payment (from UEFA) is for youth development. There needs to be criteria put in place and audits of how that money is distributed.”

I take it that he's referring to the separate UEFA solidarity scheme to distribute funds to each member association to redistribute to the non-participating clubs from the top division and all for the purpose of funding development coaching.
Afair this money was not distributed to clubs during the FAI's long era of covert corruption, perhaps Shane is saying it's still not being distributed as per Uefa criteria.

I had a look at the Icelandic FA's (KSI) accounts for the year 2023
KSI's distribution of UEFA's solidarity payment is clearly accounted for, a total of Eur 1m+ was granted, each of the 8 non participating clubs received Eur116,000,
even the 3 clubs that did participate received a compensation award of about Eur30,000.

The FAI are not required to make public such financial details.

[pineapple stu]

It was allocated - it wasn't necessarily paid to clubs, but it was offset against league fees, referees' fees, fines, etc

[geysir]

It was allocated - it wasn't necessarily paid to clubs, but it was offset against league fees, referees' fees, fines, etc

If so that's bizarre, barter is not accounting and especially when there is self interest in how it is equated . Also that's saying the solidarity payments were not allocated as per UEFA criteria to the LOI clubs and it follows that usage of solidarity funds for development were not accounted for by the clubs.

In Iceland the FA takes care of the league and referees' fees. You might the impression that the FAI are out to punish clubs for the 'right' to participate in the LOI :rolleyes:

[pineapple stu]

If so that's bizarre, barter is not accounting and especially when there is self interest in how it is equated
Of course it's accounting. You owe me ten grand, I owe you ten grand, we'll call that quits. Both entries are clearly called out. Perfectly simple. It doesn't stop the funds being applied correctly or that this can be accounted for either.

How is there self-interest in how it's equated?

Of course it would be great if participation fees were reduced (I think they have been since I was involved at that level) or if referees' fees were covered centrally, but that's a separate point

[Stuttgart88]

There's a Malachy Clerkin article (https://archive.ph/gzsKp)about the same story in the IT, with a line
on Will Clarke LOI development manager and Shane Robinson; 'neither of them came peddling guesswork. The situation is dire, everyone knows that. They came to inform you that it’s far, far worse than you think'.

Shane is quoted as saying "The solidarity payment (from UEFA) is for youth development. There needs to be criteria put in place and audits of how that money is distributed.”
.I couldn't open that link so here's the full article if same for other people:

Malachy Clerkin: A rare dose of FAI truth reveals that Irish soccer is in a worse state than you think – The Irish Times (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2024/04/27/malachy-clerkin-a-rare-dose-of-fai-truth-reveals-that-irish-soccer-is-in-a-worse-state-than-you-think/)

Nine players. Nine. Hold that number in your head for a minute. We’ll come back to it.

There was an FAI briefing during the week. No! Stop! Don’t flee! This was different. Depressing, still, yes. But different nonetheless.

It was one of those rare occasions where the usual obfuscations and prevarications didn’t apply. This wasn’t Jonathan Hill dancing on the head of a pin to try to explain how a joke in an email somehow ended up with nearly €7 million in Government funding being withheld. It wasn’t FAI officials showing a turn of pace on Kildare Street to get away from journalists after an Oireachtas hearing. It wasn’t Marc Canham dodging questions during an in-house FAI TV interview about the search for a new manager.

It was none of those. Instead, it was two well-informed, homework-done individuals with a PowerPoint presentation and a library of brutalising stats. Will Clarke is the League Of Ireland development manager. Shane Robinson is Canham’s second-in-command, the FAI’s assistant director of football. Neither of them came peddling guesswork. The situation is dire, everyone knows that. They came to inform you that it’s far, far worse than you think.

The stats whooshed out in a blizzard, all of them drifting into a thick, heavy blanket of bad news. We have somehow designed a system whereby Ireland has 24 soccer academies and just 10 full-time staff for them. Only four countries in Europe have fewer than one coach per academy – our compatriots in this regard are Northern Ireland, Andorra and Luxembourg.

To compare all that against the best in class, Portugal has seven academies and 315 full-time academy staff. If you ever wonder why there is always such a reliable flow of Portuguese players into the top teams and leagues in Europe, it isn’t by accident. The accident is when one of ours makes it.

And of course, fewer of ours than ever are doing so. As Gavin Cummiskey reported during the week, Clarke had some entirely grim numbers about the collapse of playing minutes for Irish players at the top of the game over the past decade. In 2012/13, 30 Irishmen played 44,205 minutes in the top five European leagues. Last season, 16 Irish players registered 9,818 minutes between them at that elite level.

You can get blinded by all the figures but you can’t not see the trend. A 78 per cent drop in 10 seasons. Fewer Irish players than ever are playing fewer minutes than ever at the level of the game that matters most. And if that doesn’t drive home the gravity of the situation, then brace yourself. Because it’s arguably not even the worst part.

This is where the nine players come in. According to the presentation, there are currently just nine footballers in Ireland between the ages of 17 and 18 who are receiving full-time professional coaching. Since Brexit has cut off the time-worn path to the UK for promising Irish teenagers, the system here has had to pick up the slack – a job for which it is disastrously underfunded and cumbersomely designed.

Nine players. Not even the makings of a full team. Another 28 are part-time and those numbers don’t include the likes of Mason Melia at St Pat’s and Jaden Umeh in Cork, who are still in school. But, for context, back in pre-Brexit times, anywhere between 30 and 50 players aged 16/17 went to England every year and became full-time professionals. We don’t have English football to do that job for us any more. We have to do it ourselves.

This is the nitty-gritty of running soccer in Ireland. This is the base level of organisation and planning and strategic capacity needed to keep pace in the world’s most popular sport. Fixing the Irish academy system isn’t like aspiring to a better model of car that runs smoother and goes further. It’s more a case that our existing jalopy has no tyres and we are scraping around for the money to buy some. Even when we get them, we’ll still be miles behind everyone.

Which is why the past six months have been such an unmitigated disaster for the FAI. This can’t be fixed without years of sustained government investment. With the double whammy of Hill’s demise and the manager fiasco, the FAI couldn’t have picked a worse time to be revealed as looking like the least safe bet any government could make.

Canham’s video last week, the non-update update on the managerial search, did the apparently impossible by making things worse. Up to now, Canham has been viewed as a smart guy in the background, professional and savvy, not the usual kind of FAI dissembler. And then he went and spoiled it all by opening his mouth in public and now his reputation lies in ashes.

It’s all such deeply unserious behaviour. One minute Canham is laying out the strategic plan for the coming decades, the much-trumpeted Football Pathways Plan that is going to rely on a completely new funding relationship with the exchequer to come to fruition. The next he is doing a video with Cathal Dervan saying he hopes John O’Shea will take the Ireland team for the upcoming friendlies – without having confirmed it with O’Shea first.

How can they not get it? How has the penny not dropped that every minute they spend bringing public ridicule upon themselves is a minute further away from rescuing a sport that Irish people love, one whose guardianship is their responsibility? From where do they get the arrogance to be so blithe and casual with the future of the game here?

There are nine full-time professional footballers in Ireland who are aged either 17 or 18. This is going to get worse before it gets better.

[Olé Olé]

I think Clerkin gets at this point but Hill and Canham can't be treated as separate entities to Clarke and Robinson - which is incredibly unfortunate for Clarke, Robinson and the rest of us.

Hill has set Irish football back years. Canham can't run a managerial appointment process to save his life. If there are clowns running something, you'd expect it to be a circus. Who would trust them with money?

[pineapple stu]

There are nine full-time professional footballers in Ireland who are aged either 17 or 18. This is going to get worse before it gets better.
Crikey. I know there's issues in there I've spoken about before - specifically that we need to stand up for ourselves now and stop thinking sending kids abroad is a solution - but that's stark. I kind of hoped we were coming to the bottom of the barrel with a recent uptick in players coming through, though they're still far from the finished article yet (often 3/4 years after making their debuts).

But maybe not

[passinginterest]

Crikey. I know there's issues in there I've spoken about before - specifically that we need to stand up for ourselves now and stop thinking sending kids abroad is a solution - but that's stark. I kind of hoped we were coming to the bottom of the barrel with a recent uptick in players coming through, though they're still far from the finished article yet (often 3/4 years after making their debuts).

But maybe not

There is a caveat in that the figure doesn't include players who are still in school. One of the positives of not shipping 16 year olds to England is that they can pursue football and complete an education at home. I'd be interested in the figures including players still completing their education that might be on the books with full time teams.

[John83]

That's a good point. It can't be a bad thing socially that kids are finishing secondary school at least. I guess it leads to two follow-on questions: (1) what are the stats like for 18-19 year olds? (2) Do players who finish school have an advantage or disadvantage over players who are training full time from their early or mid teens?

I don't think the latter question is as obvious as it might seem: the obvious answer seems to be that training has to be good, right? There are stats that say college students who live at home outperform those who are renting a room. I think it's credited to the mammy effect: the kid gets looked after and is generally encouraged to focus on their studies. Maybe a rake of teenagers staying home and training part time until they get their leaving cert is actually pretty positive.

There's no positive spin to put on how few coaches we have though. That's just setting ourselves up for failure.

But then you can't spell failure without FAI.

[pineapple stu]

I think while it's generally acknowledged that players leaving their home country early has a negative impact (so in that regard Brexit is actually good), there's been plenty of criticism of our academies for having much less training hours, much less ball time, etc. I think it's not far off some volunteers taking coaching twice a week.

So while school is important, I'm not sure we can find any comfort if we pad the figures by including guys in part-time training

[geysir]

Of course it's accounting. You owe me ten grand, I owe you ten grand, we'll call that quits. Both entries are clearly called out. Perfectly simple. It doesn't stop the funds being applied correctly or that this can be accounted for either.

How is there self-interest in how it's equated?

Of course it would be great if participation fees were reduced (I think they have been since I was involved at that level) or if referees' fees were covered centrally, but that's a separate point

I don't know what business accounting you're familiar with but the FAI barter accounting for solidarity payments to clubs and subsequently the 'accounting' from clubs re the received solidarity payments for development would not pass muster, there is no evidential entry/exit in the current accounts. Also Clubs are required to show accounting evidence that solidarity payments have been invested in development.
Re self interest, when the FAI are the receiver of the solidarity funds from UEFA and they don't dole it out to the clubs as per UEFA criteria, self interest becomes a question. For instance, it's in the self interest of the FAI to impose fines to clubs for this and that 'misbehavior,' because that fine will be deducted from the solidarity payment towards that club and the FAI can use that money to fill a tiny particle of their huge hole.

[geysir]

I couldn't open that link so here's the full article if same for other people:



It's quite simple really to open an archive link :), in this day and age it's an impossibility to be subscribed to every media outlet, if so then https://archive.ph/ is your man.

[pineapple stu]

I don't know what business accounting you're familiar with but the FAI barter accounting for solidarity payments to clubs and subsequently the 'accounting' from clubs re the received solidarity payments for development would not pass muster, there is no evidential entry/exit in the current accounts.
You don't have to actually write a cheque or make an EFT payment to have money correctly recorded in your accounts though.

The rest of your argument falls apart from that one basic premise

[elatedscum]

I do find it hard to reconcile those figures with for example that u15 side I saw about a year ago (now u16s). Across the two games, about 18 players really impressed. And overall 19 of the 23 players were LOI based. Admittedly all 4 of the non-LOI lads were impressive (Finneran at Blackburn, Martos at Almeira, McDonnell at Vancouver and McMahon Brown at Burnley).

How can we produce so many promising players at u15 and be doing such a bad job at 17s or 19s or whatever

[elatedscum]

“ In 2012/13, 30 Irishmen played 44,205 minutes in the top five European leagues. Last season, 16 Irish players registered 9,818 minutes between them at that elite level.”

I also wonder to what extent that’s about our inability to convince players from England, Northern Ireland and Scotland who would have previously been inclined to play for us.

Am I right in thinking that of our current squad, only Josh Cullen (and to a very minor extent Nathan Fraser) are guys who grew up outside the system and played in the top flight. In another world, all of Declan Rice, Jack Grealish, Conor Bradley and Andy Robertson are contributing to that number.

The likes of Gibson, McClean, Duffy, McCarthy, McGeady, Walters, Westwood, Cox would have all contributed to those numbers since 2012 and at least as far as i can see we’ve got significantly worse at converting irish eligible players to playing for the national team.

I know it’s just one element but I don’t think it’s insignificant

[pineapple stu]

In another world, all of Declan Rice, Jack Grealish, Conor Bradley and Andy Robertson are contributing to that number.
I don't think there's any world where that's happening to be honest.

When you compare them to the capped dual national players you list (plus McClean, which is a bit strange!) the gap in ability is huge. Who was the last English player to play for us who was genuinely good enough to play regularly for England for example?

And should you not factor in similar players who were playing in 2012/13, which would re-open the gap between the two years?

[tetsujin1979]

Ciaran Clark is usually the answer to that. Capped, and captained, England at every underage level up to U20 before switching allegiance to Ireland

[pineapple stu]

Good example I think, but he was never really in the same grouping as Robertson, Grealish and Rice. (Too early to tell with Bradley I think). I'm not sure he'd ever have been capped by England tbh. Never even played for their 21s

If that's the best example, then I think it backs up my point

[tetsujin1979]

He didn't play for their U21s because he'd changed allegiance when he was in the U20s
I'm not saying he'd have gotten 30+ caps, but he probably would have gotten a few caps before Villa were relegated, or while he was still with Newcastle

[nigel-harps1954]

Remember meeting Clark and his family in a pub in Letterkenny a few years back. His alliegance was never in question, and a family that seemed properly proud of their Irish roots.

During a time when England were struggling a little with centre backs, he would almost certainly have got a few caps there. I think he was a consistently under-rated player for us and done very well when called upon. It's a pity his career has nose-dived a little in recent seasons.

[tetsujin1979]

Interview with Gareth Farrelly on the42
https://www.the42.ie/gareth-farrelly-interview-2-6374415-May2024/

[Buckett]

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/fai-staff-slam-hypocrisy-abbotstown-33025625

[CraftyToePoke]

1825921986981474809

Guessing most of you have seen Minister of Sport Thomas Byrne on OTB yesterday about the FAI pitch for development monies but for those who haven't, it got this response, so far.

[Eirambler]

Probably the worst possible time for football to be looking for money at the moment, just coming out of the Olympics. Every second minority sport in the country is at it's highest profile point in the four year olympic cycle right now and has it's hands up looking for cash. Remember that right now our Olympians are "heroes", and our footballers are "overpaid failures".

[ifk101]

Government spending on sport in total is the real issue, no? We rank near bottom in the EU.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Government_expenditure_on_recreati onal_and_sporting_services&oldid=637614

[CraftyToePoke]

Probably the worst possible time for football to be looking for money at the moment, just coming out of the Olympics. Every second minority sport in the country is at it's highest profile point in the four year olympic cycle right now and has it's hands up looking for cash. Remember that right now our Olympians are "heroes", and our footballers are "overpaid failures".

There's never going to be a good time though.
It remains a valid request based on participation and potential employment, at any stage, whether else is going on. The manager search extended farce shedding a CEO & what looks very like an absolute charlatan remaining in situ are just as damaging.

[Razors left peg]

There's never going to be a good time though.
It remains a valid request based on participation and potential employment, at any stage, whether else is going on. The manager search extended farce shedding a CEO & what looks very like an absolute charlatan remaining in situ are just as damaging.

Id imagine that the absolute farce of the last year or so is the biggest factor in Governments attitude to the FAI right now. On the day that they were supposed to present their case to the Oireachtas Committee for a increase in government funds they got bogged down with the farce of the redacted emails and never even had time to move on to the reason they were there in the first place. Now we have a situation where they CEO recruitment might take as long as the manager hunt, but at least the Interim CEO continues to "airgap" as necessary.

I hate the amount of money that goes to Greyhounds etc, but right now the FAI need to get their own house in order before they can quibble about the Governments attitude towards them.

[Eirambler]

D McD reporting that Canham was promoted to stave off interest from the UK. Personally I'd have booked him a first class flight to the nearest airport to whatever city the supposed interest came from, but it seems the suits on the board actually rate the man.

[ifk101]

When the manager search was ongoing Canham said the following “I think as part of the process, we do want a coach who will come in and work with us in partnership and create that coaching team around it”. https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/marc-canham-fai-will-have-input-in-new-managers-backroom-choices/a1265339996.html

Was thinking the new role Canham has given himself had something to do with this partnership vision. Unclear what his ultimate personal ambitions within the FAI are.

However, looking at his Linkedin, his new role Chief Football Officer is “Leadership and responsibility of all Football Development from Grassroots through to our Senior International Teams across the Men’s and Women’s game. Providing leadership of all Football related strategies to maximise our potential and grow pathways for all at every level of the game.”

His previous role as Director of Football was “Responsible for Irish Football Development, creating pathways for all from Grassroots through to International across the Men’s and Women’s game.”

It’s basically the same responsibilities, no? Except the addition of word leadership. Note when first appointed by the FAI his job description was very much leadership intended https://www.fai.ie/latest/fai-appoints-marc-canham-to-director-of-football-role/
The words leader or leadership are used 7 times in that FAI press release.

So can only conclude, it’s not a promotion per se – but a title change, and this, and supposed interest from the UK, is being used as a justification for a pay increase.

[John83]

I wouldn't put much stock in what people write on linkedin. CEO is a well defined role in corporate governance. He'll have broader responsibilities in terms of the commercial side of the organization. All of the other C-suite people now report to him. It's more than a pay bump. It's significantly more responsibility than Chief anything else.

[ifk101]

He's not the CEO. His new title is Chief Football Officer which I believe is a new title within the FAI's corporate structure. Maybe he has more responsibility now than before, not sure where.

[John83]

I misread something there, all right. So he's gone from Director of Football to Chief Football Officer. The difference there seems murky as you say.

[seanfhear]

For some reason Chief Wiggum is coming in to my mind !

[tetsujin1979]

I was thinking Judean People's Front v People's Front of Judea