Governance of the FAI

[NeverFeltBetter]

Niall Quinn's group have published their proposals: https://static.rasset.ie/documents/sport/2019/05/fai-review-and-analysis-of-football-in-ireland-final.pdf

A lot in there. For the LOI it proposes privatising the league and making it fully pro by 2026. See the last page for some, shall we say, "ambitious" objectives for Irish football in general.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Oof on the news that Aviva debt is going to take a bit longer to clear than thought: https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/fai-president-admits-aviva-stadium-debt-may-not-be-cleared-before-2030-38242780.html

Another trip to the Oireachtas may be coming I think.

[pineapple stu]

This is what happens when you get rid of the great John Delaney...

[pineapple stu]

Dónal Conway nominated unopposed to continue in the role of FAI President.

Shane Ross has written to him asking him to withdrawn his own nomination. And fair dues to him for that in fairness. Delaney still on the payroll what - three months later? - and no sign of any meaningful reform as yet. Looks like there's serious resistance to this in the FAI. They've issued a reply this evening highlighting the risks of everyone leaving at the same time. While there may be a point to that, I think the President is too senior a role to allow continuity given the circumstances.

[pineapple stu]

FIFA/UEFA write to the FAI to tell them Shane Ross' actions could lead to an international suspension. Getting towards a dangerous game of chicken here.

https://www.fai.ie/domestic/news/fifa-and-uefa-write-to-fai

[geysir]

Probably the only common ground myself and and Shane have. On the performance at the Dail inquest alone, Conway should have his head hung in shame for eternity.
But Shane Ross should confine himself to his area of influence and state that the government will not be convinced to change their decision on funding by recent or proposed appointments.

[Nesta99]

I dont see how a government official making a suggestion or questioning new rules eg reducing quorum to 2 board members constitues political interference. Ok its in the rule book but it is not mandating that Conway withdraw it is a reccomendation. FIFA/UEFA should use some common sense on this knowing that the FAI is a disaster zone and that there are efforts to break up what seems like a kabal. I do agree that continuity is needed and that it is possible that Conway is hamstrung by the legalities of everything. Is it possible that UEFA/FIFA have some inside knwoledge on what lies ahead and are flexing their muscle to keep the person driving change in office? Its third part interference in its own right if not political. It would be different if the Dept of Sport sent in civil servants to run the association or something. One of the main issues is that of credibility and after the JD non performance at the Oireachtas Conway looks like he was in cahoots. Maybe he is following due process to maximise the culpability of the former CEO with the mess to save a large payoff. A lot of people are assuming that there is a blatant but sneaky effort to save ones own skin, but Conway is really putting himself out there and taking hit after hit on his reputation. A person with something to seriously hide would have cut and run ala JD and the Olympic tickets malarkey, Conways is doing the opposite. With some patience we might just see what his long game is. I'd rather not have had the FAI press office publicise this warning from FIFA/UEFA. For all the transparency we want on this occasion maybe a quiet letter to the minister would have sufficed rather than ramp up the eyeballing. There is no doubt that the PAC are fuming with what happened with the best paid gardner in the country and they want their pound of flesh. They too need to heed due process!

[BonnieShels]

Enjoyed this read:
https://www.the42.ie/brian-kerr-4-4736194-Jul2019/?utm_source=shortlink


Whatever happens at the end of all of this, we need Kerr back in the FAI.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Between publicising the correspondence from FIFA and his comments about potential job losses (not to mention the way he conducted himself in the Oireachtas), Conway doesn't strike me as a guy who appreciates any political comments or perceived interference in the FAI, and is still deadset on a policy of "Stay the course until the story goes away".

Honestly, I think the fan protest aspect of this whole thing withered away too quickly. The tennis balls annoyed the hell out of some, but were their own sort of pressure.

Has FIFA ever suspended a UEFA association? I think Greece were done in 2006, but only for a very short time.

[tetsujin1979]

Was Macedonia suspended, or threatened with it?
AFAIR it was because they appointed two co-presidents of the association in order to satisfy the two major ethnicities of the country, but this is against FIFA rules.

[geysir]

We are fortunate that the FAI Deep Throat is still gurgling. The regular dispatches keep prícking pins into the FAI balloon - the ‘heads in sand and it will all blow away’ policy
DT is playing it smart, just leaking out enough each month. And presumably the english Times are also attentive to DT's financial requests,. Perhaps they have an established snitch fund?
The ET reported that the FAI head of security Marty McGlue wrote an email to Delaney (and his moth) informing them that
"the gardai are trying to hack into a (supporters) whatsapp group"

Did the FAI break with tradition and reply that "hack" was a word used incorrectly in this message?

Delaney must be having nightmares about Deep Throat and powerless to do anything about it.

[BonnieShels]

Hopefully he continues to squirm.

[pineapple stu]

Hopefully he gets ****ed out of there and we can get on with rebuilding the game here.

Three months at this stage? It can't take that long to conduct an internal investigation when most of it has already been done.

[geysir]

Hopefully the investigation is taking so long because the evidence is much and the trail is long.

[BonnieShels]

That's the hope.

Precious little in the way of leaks of late though. Anything recent from Tighe?

[Stuttgart88]

What was the Paul Rowan story this weekend? FAI paying 100k a month to Sports Direct after a sponsorship deal fell through, and after Sports Duirect had paid money upfront to FAI? I haven't heard the amount or the timeframe.

Also, Top Lion (New Balance / Umbro distributor in Ireland) no longer kit supplier or whatever their role was exactly. On Twitter these stories appear to be related. So what exactly was Sports Direct's involvement? Shirt Sponsor? (unlikely) One of their brands being kit manufacturer?

[Razors left peg]

What was the Paul Rowan story this weekend? FAI paying 100k a month to Sports Direct after a sponsorship deal fell through, and after Sports Duirect had paid money upfront to FAI? I haven't heard the amount or the timeframe.

Also, Top Lion (New Balance / Umbro distributor in Ireland) no longer kit supplier or whatever their role was exactly. On Twitter these stories appear to be related. So what exactly was Sports Direct's involvement? Shirt Sponsor? (unlikely) One of their brands being kit manufacturer?

Jesus you would hope that they werent being considered as a shirt sponsor

[geysir]

The Times UK reported that Noel Mooney put out the hand of friendship to Eoin Hand and "welcomed him back into the FAI fold".
Brian Kerr next? :rolleyes:

[NeverFeltBetter]

Times again, though behind a pay wall: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/fai-paid-john-giles-s-pal-300-000-for-foundation-and-walk-idea-t8fcvf2xc

[Ezeikial]

FAI paid John Giles's pal €300,000 for ‘foundation and walk idea’


Mark Tighe and Paul Rowan
August 25 2019, 12:01am, The Sunday Times


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/methode%2Fsundaytimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F334a1e4 c-c6ac-11e9-828d-56121e952493.jpg?crop=1500%2C844%2C0%2C78&resize=685
John Giles said he hoped his foundation would run another nine yearsSTEPHEN MCCARTHY/SPORTSFILEShareSave



The FAI paid €300,000 to a friend of John Giles for coming up with the “concept” of the John Giles Foundation, its fundraising walks, and a kit-purchasing idea.

The payments to Con Martin, a former League of Ireland player, were made in 2011-16 at the same time as FAI staff salaries were being cut. The €5,000-a-month payments to Martin were initially queried by FAI officials but sources say John Delaney, then chief executive, insisted they had to continue.

Since 2016, Martin has been threatening to sue the FAI for further monies he alleges the association owes him. According to minutes from a November 2016 FAI board meeting, Martin said he had been told by Giles that the FAI sold the Walk of Dreams concept to Uefa, the European governing authority for football, for €10m.

The board was told the “endgame” was “not giving him [Martin] any more money” but this would be “hard to achieve”. Delaney was said to be meeting Giles to discuss the issue.

The board was also told the FAI would attempt to settle Martin’s claim in order to prevent the case going to court and getting publicity. Delaney said he would attempt to get Martin to settle his claim, with a confidentiality clause.

Giles, an ex-Ireland player and manager and RTE football pundit, did not return calls last week. A friend of Giles said his position was that the FAI payments to Martin “had nothing to do with him”.

Established in 2011, the John Giles Foundation is run by the FAI, which controls its bank account. It is not a registered company or charity. It first ran countrywide sponsored walks for football clubs under the Walk of Dreams banner in 2011. While it reported raising €360,000 in 2011, this dropped to €60,000 in 2012, after many football clubs refused to get involved as the foundation was keeping half the money raised to distribute to other clubs and applicants.

One figure in football said: “We were encouraged to take part in Walk of Dreams in order to raise funds for clubs and leagues, in conjunction with our own fundraising. It fell apart after the first Walk of Dreams; the clubs wouldn’t support it any more. We raised a lot of money and got very little out of it.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/methode%2Fsundaytimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F64609cc c-c689-11e9-828d-56121e952493.jpg?crop=1920%2C2400%2C0%2C0&resize=685

The foundation paid for Nadia Forde to fly over to Ireland and dance with John DelaneyBRIAN MCEVOTBRIAN MCEVOT

The foundation has since carried out fundraising events, including a dance competition for which Nadia Forde, a model, was paid to fly from Los Angeles to Dublin, where she danced with Delaney.

In April, when it was put to him during an interview on Newstalk that concerns about his foundation had been reported to the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, Giles said he had no concerns over the organisation as all money raised was used to support grassroots football. Giles said he hoped his foundation would last another nine years. Its website has not been operational in recent weeks. The last publicised event on its Facebook page was a 2017 golf classic.

This weekend Martin confirmed he got 60 payments of €5,000 between 2011 and 2016 from the FAI. He said the payments were for the Giles foundation, the Walk of Dreams, and a “concept” called Team Kit Wear which proposed combining all clubs’ purchasing power to secure discounts.

Martin said he signed a contract with the FAI in 2008. He ran the John Giles golf classic for eight years, and says Giles approved him setting up a foundation that the FAI then “bought” from him.

Martin insisted he had not used Giles’s name when he told the FAI he had heard the association had sold his concept to Uefa. “I lost my head because I said that he [Delaney] had the rights for the Republic of Ireland only, and I had the copyright/intellectual property for the rest of the world,” said Martin.

He says his claim for further FAI payments is still alive and he is consulting his solicitor this week.
The FAI did not respond to questions. Last night Uefa said that “after an initial investigation” it could find no record of the alleged agreement with the FAI.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fai-paid-john-giles-s-pal-300-000-for-foundation-and-walk-idea-t8fcvf2xc?region=ie&t=ie

[elatedscum]

In fairness, if the FAI were able to sell that concept to Uefa for €10m, hats off to Delaney or whoever did the deal.

[geysir]

In fairness, if the FAI were able to sell that concept to Uefa for €10m, hats off to Delaney or whoever did the deal.

"if"

the source for that story is Con Martin:rolleyes:

[tetsujin1979]

New interim CEO announced - Gary Owens, formerly of down syndrome Ireland, and athletics Ireland

[seanfhear]

Delaney should never have been more than an interim now perhaps he should be interned !

[osarusan]

Delaney gone from his UEFA post too.

[backstothewall]

Niall Quinn in as Interim Deputy CEO

[Razors left peg]

Niall Quinn in as Interim Deputy CEO

It does seem like things are moving in the right direction.

[Stuttgart88]

There seems to be some cynicism over Quinn, and the group he was involved in recently, which included Barrett and Owens. I don’t see it. Quinn might be seen as a bit wet but he’s got diplomacy skills, much needed if the FAI is to get closer to the state machinery. He is 100% right about football getting a pitiful share of sport spending and 100% right that football needs a stronger lobbying relationship with government. He has identified both the LOI and youth structures as critical areas needing investment and improvement. I think this is a positive step & I hope he does well.

[Eminence Grise]

His heart's in the right place, he's got a good business brain, was chairman of Sunderland so he knows a bit about top-level football administration, and he's likeable. Under the old regime, I'd have said he was destined to fail! I'm really optimistic about this - I don't expect miracles, but I do think good things will come.

[Real ale Madrid]

His heart's in the right place,

Is it though?

Quinn never did anything imo except for his personal gain.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/brian-kerr-and-niall-quinn-bring-new-academy-idea-to-government-1.3760308


“Where it’s gone to now is: ‘the problem doesn’t just stop with a national academy, it needs a radical change in the League of Ireland around helping those clubs establish a system that can lead to players going over to England better prepared for top level careers or, if they don’t go, to make the League of Ireland more competitive.”

Looks like Quinn wants to harvest our best talents to England - will our clubs gain from this or will it be same old story. I'm v wary of him and the incompetence of his "Visionary" group presentation is already well known.

[pineapple stu]

I don't see any problem with that tbh. The LoI has to expect to be a selling league. At the moment, too many of those transfers are (a) for free, or next to nothing and (b) ultimately not very successful. Transfer income is huge for similar-sized leagues and we can't keep ignoring it.

A system where youngsters stay at home, progress through the LoI and then move is essential, to player and club (except the schoolboy clubs of course)

I've no problem with those comments - especially as you didn't flag the bit where it says that players would be at least given the practical choice of staying here as well. The league loses too many players because it's just not worth it for many once they get a regular career

[Real ale Madrid]

I don't see any problem with that tbh. The LoI has to expect to be a selling league. At the moment, too many of those transfers are (a) for free, or next to nothing and (b) ultimately not very successful. Transfer income is huge for similar-sized leagues and we can't keep ignoring it.

A system where youngsters stay at home, progress through the LoI and then move is essential, to player and club (except the schoolboy clubs of course)

I've no problem with those comments - especially as you didn't flag the bit where it says that players would be at least given the practical choice of staying here as well. The league loses too many players because it's just not worth it for many once they get a regular career

You didn't' answer my question though - Will the clubs themselves benefit from transfer fees and not a third party like Red Strike? Why would someone invest €40m into Schoolboy academies for no return? I'm not saying I'm right or wrong in any case I'm just questioning the assertion that Quinn's heart is in the right place. It may well be but It may well be not either.

[pineapple stu]

I don't see anything in what you quoted that indicates anything other than helping clubs in this.

Third party contracts are illegal. I know football and money will always try find a way around rules, but for now I don't see why if Cork sell a player, Cork wouldn't get fees

[Eminence Grise]

His heart's in the right place.


Is it though?

In that he was proud to play for Ireland, is one of the few ex-internationals to have expressed any kind of interest in the league, came back to live here, runs his business here, seems to have a geniune interest...? Yeah, I'd say so. I could be biased because I've always liked him as a player and person.

If he has the business acumen to help LoI clubs develop players for sale, and, alone or with a consortium of investors, benefit with a percentage of the sale, once it's legal and not like some amateur clubs' trade in kids, or the obscene power of a Raiola or Mendes figure, I don't have a problem. As Pineapple Stu says, transfer fees here are something we can't ignore for much longer. Ask a club: would they rather have 100pc of a free transfer all by themselves, or 50pc of €100k where a third party gets their cut from having invested in the academy that helped develop the player (rather having dodgy joint ownership)?

[Real ale Madrid]

In that he was proud to play for Ireland, is one of the few ex-internationals to have expressed any kind of interest in the league, came back to live here, runs his business here, seems to have a geniune interest...? Yeah, I'd say so. I could be biased because I've always liked him as a player and person.


If Niall Quinn had any interest in the LOI he would have got involved at club level years ago. I'm not lambasting him for that because he is a businessman and there is no money in the LOI but lets get real here. He has no interest in the league in general - or at least he has shown no interest thus far.





If he has the business acumen to help LoI clubs develop players for sale, and, alone or with a consortium of investors, benefit with a percentage of the sale, once it's legal and not like some amateur clubs' trade in kids, or the obscene power of a Raiola or Mendes figure, I don't have a problem. As Pineapple Stu says, transfer fees here are something we can't ignore for much longer. Ask a club: would they rather have 100pc of a free transfer all by themselves, or 50pc of €100k where a third party gets their cut from having invested in the academy that helped develop the player (rather having dodgy joint ownership)?

Now we are getting to the crux of the issue. I don't really disagree with what you say - but from the outside this seems to be his motivation ( to make money for a 3rd party ) and its not a good starting point for a governing body to take, which he is now part of. Id rather a governing body lobby for government funding and be fully recompensed for players they develop. If investors want to get involved in clubs fine but I'd be wary of going down the road of an academy structure funded even partially by a third party. Significant investment will require significant returns.

[pineapple stu]

If Niall Quinn had any interest in the LOI he would have got involved at club level years ago. I'm not lambasting him for that because he is a businessman and there is no money in the LOI but lets get real here. He has no interest in the league in general - or at least he has shown no interest thus far.
Maybe his interest is Irish football generally - so no interest in getting involved at club level, but recognises that the LoI is important in the overall scheme of things?

That'd be a big improvement on recent regimes...

I know there were issues with his Visionary Group - when you lose out to Lucid, who seems to have nothing, then that doesn't reflect well - but I don't think you've shown any grounds for legitimate concerns in your posts tbh.

[Real ale Madrid]

Maybe his interest is Irish football generally - so no interest in getting involved at club level, but recognises that the LoI is important in the overall scheme of things?

That'd be a big improvement on recent regimes...

I know there were issues with his Visionary Group - when you lose out to Lucid, who seems to have nothing, then that doesn't reflect well - but I don't think you've shown any grounds for legitimate concerns in your posts tbh.

You think "Maybe" is ok with regards his interest in the league despite there being no actual evidence that he does.

But I have no grounds for legitimate concerns surrounding a 3rd party football academy which Quinn represents that wants to invest large sums in the game here for no return.

Right.

[pineapple stu]

You're beginning to sound a bit like SkStu in the politics forum now. :)

All I can say is that the quote you highlighted gives me no concern at all. It is entirely logical that the FAI would want to facilitate Irish players moving to as high a level as possible, and that's not the LoI. That would benefit the LoI as well. He doesn't need to have any specific interest in the LoI to act in its benefits, if his interest is in helping football in Ireland in general.

There may well be issues of concern here - but you've not really shown them. You argued against your own point (Quinn has no interest in the league), so you can hardly give out to me for arguing against it too. Everything else is just supposition on your part based on one connection.

[Real ale Madrid]

You're beginning to sound a bit like SkStu in the politics forum now. :)


If ever there was a Que to shut up! That is it.



There may well be issues of concern here - but you've not really shown them to me.

Fixed that for you.



There may well be issues of concern here - but you've not really shown them. You argued against your own point (Quinn has no interest in the league), so you can hardly give out to me for arguing against it too. Everything else is just supposition on your part based on one connection.

Its more than just supposition in fairness. He went to Lobby the government no more than a year ago accompanied by Redstrike and Brian Kerr - its not some sort of outlandish connection.
https://www.dublinlive.ie/sport/niall-quinn-meet-government-over-15699216
Anyway - point made. Hope Quinn does a great job but I'm not holding out any hope of this being a watershed appointment.

[Eminence Grise]

If Niall Quinn had any interest in the LOI he would have got involved at club level years ago. I'm not lambasting him for that because he is a businessman and there is no money in the LOI but lets get real here. He has no interest in the league in general - or at least he has shown no interest thus far.

Now we are getting to the crux of the issue. I don't really disagree with what you say - but from the outside this seems to be his motivation ( to make money for a 3rd party ) and its not a good starting point for a governing body to take, which he is now part of. Id rather a governing body lobby for government funding and be fully recompensed for players they develop. If investors want to get involved in clubs fine but I'd be wary of going down the road of an academy structure funded even partially by a third party. Significant investment will require significant returns.

It’s that kind of thinking (generally, not you, RAM) that holds back the league. This Corinthian amateurism that wants a pure game, unsullied by money and materialism – almost a Ron Manager with his small boys (hm!) and jumpers for goalposts. It's not money on its own, it has to be the right money.

The league has been starved of money for my entire life (I’m mid-forties).

I’m fed up seeing players go to clubs in the UK for nothing or next to it, and our clubs getting ripped off by UK clubs who could afford to pay proper fees but have us over a barrel. If someone can professionalise player marketing (from development to finished product) for a fee that means our clubs profit, I’d be all for it – once there are proper legal and regulatory controls in place (that much we agree on, I think). The kind of stuff Delaney and his gang never bothered to implement.

I don’t think that necessarily means a third party on its own. Of the two proposals for the league, Lucid’s got a little traction, Quinn’s didn’t. Who’s to say that Quinn in his new role can’t work for a joint FAI, LoI, state and third party initiative? Or hasn’t been brought in for this exact reason?

A centralised governing body that lobbies and develops players here is a great idea, but it would need to be a national academy along the lines of a Clarefontaine or a George’s Park (the latter cost over £100m to develop) or have a draft and contract system like the MLS. Both are outside our football culture, and I’m not even sure that centralised contracts would work under EU rules.

I want to be optimistic. Following Ireland and the LoI these last few years … it’s like being 3-0 down in a cup final heading into injury time. But I still want to believe that our lumbering veteran centre forward can shank one in and start the mother of all comebacks. Don’t take that hope from me, RAM!!!:D

[Eminence Grise]

You're beginning to sound a bit like SkStu in the politics forum now. :)

Ooooh... that's a pistols at dawn comment if ever I saw one.

[Real ale Madrid]

I want to be optimistic. Following Ireland and the LoI these last few years … it’s like being 3-0 down in a cup final heading into injury time. But I still want to believe that our lumbering veteran centre forward can shank one in and start the mother of all comebacks. Don’t take that hope from me, RAM!!!:D

Look, the ball is fizzing over the shoulder of Van Aerle and he looks like he is going to put Van Brekeluen under pressure with a bad backpass. I'm with you - I want Quinn to anticipate the loose ball and slam it home into the roof of the net but the ball is most definitely loose and its really anyone's guess as to where it is going to end up!

[Eminence Grise]

Ooooh! Get it up yer orange jersies!!!;)

[sbgawa]

The best think IMHO about having people Like Roy Barret , Gary Owens , Catherine Guy etc coming into the FAI is that they all have professional reputations at high levels and wont be part of an organisation going forward that isnt run properly.

[SkStu]

You're beginning to sound a bit like SkStu in the politics forum now. :)


If ever there was a Que to shut up! That is it.

Now, now. Be nice and lets keep politics out of Irish football, as the old adage goes.

*cue by the way RAM. I hope that doesnt offend you... ;)

[Stuttgart88]

You think "Maybe" is ok with regards his interest in the league despite there being no actual evidence that he does.

But I have no grounds for legitimate concerns surrounding a 3rd party football academy which Quinn represents that wants to invest large sums in the game here for no return.

Right.where does he say the national academy is to be a vehicle for profiting on player sales? I didn’t see that.

[Real ale Madrid]

where does he say the national academy is to be a vehicle for profiting on player sales? I didn’t see that.

Private funding will look for a return.

[Stuttgart88]

And the full quote in context? Is he talking about private funding of a national academy or private funding of clubs? The former would probably be illegal (TPO), the latter is football.

[Stuttgart88]

To answer my own question I read that there’s a guy called Mike Farnan who does indeed have stakes in foreign academies in places such as Vietnam, Lithuania. Definitely cause for concern. By all means have a national academy but not one which actually owns players’ transfer rights. Kerr is an advisor. I think there’d be outcry if something like that was launched here I’d be surprised if Kerr supported it. There was a similar academy in Spain run by Glenn Hoddle which was slightly different. It was “signing” out of contract players like Christy Fagan and giving them a second chance. I think they had to apply to be a club in Spain’s lower tiers. Not sure how it worked out but it had some iffy characters involved - as does most of football.

This bit does indeed deserve some attention.

I may be naive but I still think this lot could be decent though. They have the business skills to run an organisation.

[Stuttgart88]

I’d also be curious to know what the appointment process was.