The Household Charge

[horton]

Now that the deadline is looming, who is risking the fines boycotting this charge in the hope it'll be done away with, or if your liable, have you already registered and pay/intend to do so before the deadline expires? Just a simple survey to see have opinions since changed.

[bennocelt]

Well I'm in the UK, but parents are not paying - never got anything from state, never voted for FG/FF, paid taxes all their life so don't think they should be responsible for the bailing out of the banks. Also what services do people in the countryside exactly get, as we have to pay a private company for our rubbish collection.

[Macy]

Registered and paid. imo, not wanting to "bail out the banks" is the lamest excuse ever, and could be used for every single tax we have. And we have our own well, waste water treatment system and pay a private company for waste. However, "what services do we get" is also a pretty lame excuse, as I do use the local and regional roads, library, leisure centre, parks, children use the playgrounds, the council owned theatre.

It's a tax. Evasion of this tax is no more justifiable than for any other form of tax. If you don't like it, vote the Government out the next time. It's a regressive tax, but we've loads of regressive taxes and charges. The fuss over this compared to the couple hours fuss over bank charges, when bank charges will cost most families far more, is ridiculous imo.

[Dodge]

Also what services do people in the countryside exactly get, as we have to pay a private company for our rubbish collection.
No one in the city gets their rubbish collected without paying a private company either...

Haven't paid. Probably will. Went to register for DD payments but couldn't for some reason. Haven't had a chance to yet

It's a tax though, not a charge. They've handled it's roll out pretty poorly

[mypost]

Registered and paid. imo, not wanting to "bail out the banks" is the lamest excuse ever, and could be used for every single tax we have.

It's a tax. Evasion of this tax is no more justifiable than for any other form of tax. If you don't like it, vote the Government out the next time. It's a regressive tax, but we've loads of regressive taxes and charges.

If people don't pay their taxes, they go to prison. If people don't pay this, they get a what, a fine?? :confused:

It's not a tax. It's a load of rubbish, that will collect a miniscule amount of money in the overall deficit. Just another way of getting the public to bail out failed gamblers from years ago.

I think most of those who have paid, and will pay, are the ones who can afford to. Most of the rest don't like it, but voting the Government out because of it is not possible, as the opposition want it too. So instead the public have for once stood up and said, no.

[Macy]

There's always options in elections. EVERY tax is going to pay bankers debts to some degree. there's no way there's that many can't pays. All the small amounts in taxes and cuts in the budget add up - it's another of those headwrecking arguments.

[bennocelt]

Registered and paid. imo, not wanting to "bail out the banks" is the lamest excuse ever, and could be used for every single tax we have. And we have our own well, waste water treatment system and pay a private company for waste. However, "what services do we get" is also a pretty lame excuse, as I do use the local and regional roads, library, leisure centre, parks, children use the playgrounds, the council owned theatre.

It's a tax. Evasion of this tax is no more justifiable than for any other form of tax. If you don't like it, vote the Government out the next time. It's a regressive tax, but we've loads of regressive taxes and charges. The fuss over this compared to the couple hours fuss over bank charges, when bank charges will cost most families far more, is ridiculous imo.


Good for you that you paid, good lad. But you are not so quick to tell me what people in the countryside will get from these taxes? Clean parks,lol. Leisure centres, lol. Playgrounds,lol.
Bailing out aib and the likes have left less money for essential services, in case you havent noticed!!!
Wonder what world you are living in

[Macy]

What has bailing out the banks got to do with this tax, that couldn't be similarly argued with the other tax increases we've had to endure? Is it ok to evade VAT as that was increased inline with the terms of the programme? I do live in the country. so your folks don't use any local services at all? Never travel a regional road? There's more services than drinking and waste water.

[bennocelt]

What has bailing out the banks got to do with this tax, that couldn't be similarly argued with the other tax increases we've had to endure? Is it ok to evade VAT as that was increased inline with the terms of the programme? I do live in the country. so your folks don't use any local services at all? Never travel a regional road? There's more services than drinking and waste water.

Wow - so the banking collapse and the bailouts have nothing to do with this or all the ensuing taxes on the way - wow, blinkered!
No they dont use any local services. A regional road,lol. Again have you see the state of the roads and hedgerows! So we have to pay this tax for the upkeep of the roads. Jesus why do people pay tax at all!!
Will you be paying the septic tank charge, the water rates (which is a good idea, but in Ireland with leaky pipes!), the proposed tv/net thing Labour are on about, or any more new taxes they can think of. Yeah pay up and be the good citizen, governments love people like you. Of course paying back bondholders has nothing to do with it at all, tsk;)
I suppose we are all in this together and should tighten our belts and other such guff.
Father already lost a good bit on his pension - mother never got a benefit in her life - worked hard - raised a family - never got anything from state and dont expect anything - but yeah please the roads the roads....................
Westmeath wasting 70 million on a new state of the art council building with library in 2007 wasn't exactly needed - when what they had before was fine, not when the army barracks, mental hospital are closed and the local hospital downgraded and maybe closed in the future - yeah pay your council tax!:rolleyes:

[mypost]

What has bailing out the banks got to do with this tax, that couldn't be similarly argued with the other tax increases we've had to endure? Is it ok to evade VAT as that was increased inline with the terms of the programme? I do live in the country. so your folks don't use any local services at all? Never travel a regional road? There's more services than drinking and waste water.

This isn't been used to fund local services, its collected to show the foreigners, that we're not rioting like the Greeks, and meeting their targets instead. As Hogan said last week, it wouldn't look good "internationally", if we didn't pay up.

Fine, you've done what the government/FF told you to do. Will you pay up in full your USC, VAT, bag tax, water tax, second home tax, credit card stamp duty tax this week too, etc, etc? And will you pass the treaty, because the government want you to do that too? At what point do you say "no"?

[Eminence Grise]

what people in the countryside will get from these taxes?

Offhand, road repairs, road markings, gulleys and culverts maintained, traffic calming, hedgetrimming, water supply, environmental services, litter control, fire service, civil defence, animal pounds, maintaining the electoral register, housing, social housing, planning permission, urban/village renewal schemes, heritage protection, education (VECs), libraries (any mobile ones left, these days?) parks... And of, course, for the few occasions when they leave their utopian, no-funding-necessary, self-sustaining idylls and are forced to visit towns and villages: footpaths, street lighting, gumbusting machines, swimming pools, arts centres... is that enough?

Look: it's a charge that nobody wants to pay. But every penny that is withheld in payment will contribute to keeping us in economic subjugation to the Troika for longer, during which time we'll see more wards closed, bigger class sizes, unemployment and emigration etc etc. Personally, I'd tar and feather all the bankers and their political buddies responsible for the mess we're in (and anybody in FF, which abolished domestic rates in the first case) but I wouldn't use a misplaced sense of righteous indignation to jeopardise the state's ability to fund other services. It's often forgotten these days, but the tax cheats who hid their money in off-shore accounts in the 1980s were, through their personal greed and disregard for the law, at least partly responsible for cutbacks in health and education funding post-1987 and the PNR.

[Eminence Grise]

. Will you pay up in full your USC, VAT, bag tax, water tax, second home tax, credit card stamp duty tax this week too, etc, etc? And will you pass the treaty, because the government want you to do that too? At what point do you say "no"?

Since most of those taxes and charges are collected at source: yes. Just as you will. Of course, you can minimise your liability by not having a second home (Jesus, it'd be great to own even one...), not having a credit card, reusing sturdy shopping bags, avoiding purchasing anything on which VAT is levied etc etc.

I won't be voting to pass the referendum, though. I think we can agree on that much

[bennocelt]

Offhand, road repairs, road markings, gulleys and culverts maintained, traffic calming, hedgetrimming, water supply, environmental services, litter control, fire service, civil defence, animal pounds, maintaining the electoral register, housing, social housing, planning permission, urban/village renewal schemes, heritage protection, education (VECs), libraries (any mobile ones left, these days?) parks... And of, course, for the few occasions when they leave their utopian, no-funding-necessary, self-sustaining idylls and are forced to visit towns and villages: footpaths, street lighting, gumbusting machines, swimming pools, arts centres... is that enough?

Look: it's a charge that nobody wants to pay. But every penny that is withheld in payment will contribute to keeping us in economic subjugation to the Troika for longer, during which time we'll see more wards closed, bigger class sizes, unemployment and emigration etc etc. R.

No thats not enough, nearly none of your examples apply to where I live. A road is basically it! LOL - seriosuly this is rural Ireland, not germany, and you would really want to have a look the land of the never never - you could easily get lost in the boglands of the midlands.

Dont believe that bull that this is for essential services - its getting suckers to pay for services that once were paid for, the money then can re reused to pay back the loans from Europe, which was of course to bail out the bankers. FG have said so as much

if you want to pay then that's fine, but then get used to tax's and don't complain.

[Eminence Grise]

I'm from Roscommon - I'm well familiar with bog roads! When all is said and done, there is a huge debt to pay off; either we take money from frontline services to pay for it, or we collect money from other sources. Not a palatable choice either way, but given a choice between reducing funding for schools and hospitals or paying the charge I'd prefer the latter. The whole issue hasn't been helped by Hogan's utter incompetence and arrogance, on the one hand, and the no-side's (ULA,SF) using the issue as a vote getting exercise on the other.

Somebody said to me the other day that at most this year the charge can only raise €160,000,000... Maybe I missed something, but since when can we describe that amount of money as 'only'?

BTW, €70m for an Arts Centre? Ye must have gotten solid gold taps for that!! (Or maybe, just ridden rock solid!!)

[bennocelt]

Yeah I understand that but I thought FG were going to burn the bondholders, eh? talking about throwing money away.

Again expect the ordinary decent skins to bail out the mistakes of the few, well about a million or so have said enough is enough. Giving money to the government in any shape or form is wastage. In my locality (well home!) people are buying fuel from Poland (instead of from Bord na Mona up the road), local food from markets, and butchers are selling meat directly door to door - screw the politicians wasting our money.
Patriotism my hole, we are not all in this together, we never were in the good times and we will do our best not to be in the bad times either. (argh!:mad:)

I'm sorry but they are taking the money from frontline services anyway and its not because the irish are not paying enough in taxes.

(was for new council hq plus library not arts centre)

[Macy]

Fine, you've done what the government/FF told you to do. Will you pay up in full your USC, VAT, bag tax, water tax, second home tax, credit card stamp duty tax this week too, etc, etc? And will you pass the treaty, because the government want you to do that too? At what point do you say "no"?
I don't evade any tax. So yes, I will be paying the taxes that the democratically elected government decided to introduce, in line with their policy before the election (just as I've done when it's been administrations without majority support, who I didn't vote for). FG and Labour were committed to the troika programme in the run up to the election, there was no promise or even hinted at promise to renegotiate the need for a property tax. There were options of parties and people who wanted to rip up the agreement - the vast majority voted to work with the programme. This Government have a mandate, and opinion polls suggest they would get another if there was an election tomorrow.

It's clear the intention is that the property tax will go to fund local services. What happens to the money that comes from central Government is a seperate matter, but all FG/ Labour said pre election was renegotiation of the programme (another change in the terms this week), so I think that is a bogus argument.

I haven't decided on the treaty yet - but that's the people's right to vote that down. Just as they had the options to vote in politicians who didn't support the troika programme just over a year ago, just as they will at the next election (assuming we're not out of the programme).

A week after Mahon, and I'm actually getting criticised for paying bloody tax!

[bennocelt]

A week after Mahon, and I'm actually getting criticised for paying bloody tax!

Big difference surely.
Good that you are happy to pay for the bailout. And good that you do what your politicians tell you. You must be a good patriot.
Democracy in Ireland means having to suffer under the likes of FF,FG and Labour. Some of us are not happy with these choices, and will not follow their orders either!

[Dodge]

Some of us are not happy with these choices, and will not follow their orders either!

Not a fan of democracy?

[bennocelt]

Not a fan of democracy?

Nah, not Irish style really - but isnt that understandable? Bertie, Cowen, Haughey, Lenihan Clan, Donie Cassidy, Inda Kenny, Labour - Follow what they say, are ya feckin crazy!!!

[Macy]

Big difference surely.
Good that you are happy to pay for the bailout. And good that you do what your politicians tell you. You must be a good patriot.
Democracy in Ireland means having to suffer under the likes of FF,FG and Labour. Some of us are not happy with these choices, and will not follow their orders either!
Ah look, you can go back and look at my views on the blanket guarantee that got us into the position of needing a bailout. However, the people spoke last year, and overwhelming returned parties and politicians that supported the continuation of the troika programme. Opinion polls suggest this Government would be returned if there was a snap election now. There were enough candidates that didn't support remaining in it that a majority against could've been voted in. Like it or not, and in my lifetime it's been mostly not, the people have already spoken.

A property tax is in the programme. Should I evade USC because that was introduced to pay for a situation caused by the banks and FF? Should I evade income tax, which has risen to pay for a situation caused by the banks and FF? Whatabout VAT? Increase health service charges? Increased fuel taxes? Should I embezzle from the job to make up for pay cuts to pay for a situation caused by the banks and FF?

[bennocelt]

Eh yeah, go for it!;) You might feel a whole lot better
So what exactly is your answer then - to pay up and shut up?

[Lionel Ritchie]

Haven't registered, have no intention of registering. I'm not even ideologically opposed to a property tax. For now I'm just not paying because I'm not paying because I'm not paying. My recalcitrance is the only form of protest available to me and I'm going to hold out, frustrate and thwart them for as long I can without losing my job. ...and if they get it out of me somehow eventually well how bad -I'd rather pay 11, 22 or 33 bucks more than half the population than 100 bucks more than the other half.

Also -I handed over 14k stamp duty not two years ago. I don't want my local authority getting a button more of my money. They've disowned faulty sewer works they recently decided to remember at a most convenient time that they didn't build in the first place. They want to **** 120M up a rope on a dual carriageway near my house that would not pass any cost benefit analysis. But they want it because they want it because they want it.

Incidently, I've been a solid Labour/Green Party supporter and voter all my voting life.

[mypost]

There were no options available to the electorate. Nobody wanted FF, and SF are not allowed to be in government unless they get 83 seats, which won't be happening anytime soon. So the choice was FG/Lab or FG/Lab, and a FG/Lab government was elected. And that will be the only viable option next time too.

If the fine was for local services, it would be collected by local councils. Instead its going into a central fund, to be distributed as required. And what are all funds going to atm? It's not local services, that's for sure.

[Macy]

There were no options available to the electorate. Nobody wanted FF, and SF are not allowed to be in government unless they get 83 seats, which won't be happening anytime soon. So the choice was FG/Lab or FG/Lab, and a FG/Lab government was elected. And that will be the only viable option next time too.
I don't believe that SF were that toxic - if the numbers had stacked up, both FG or Labour would've gone in with them if a programme for Govt could be agreed. FF aren't relevant to the discussion, since they signed the bloody programme that makes this charge a necessity for any Government/ Party that is going to stick with the Troika deal.

There were enough anti programme candidates between SF, ULA and independents to form a none programme government, if that's what the people wanted. You were giving out about the number of candidates in some constituencies ffs. But the electorate had no option? Give me a break - the electorate nearly gave an overall majority to the most pro european and most pro troika programme opposition party.


If the fine was for local services, it would be collected by local councils. Instead its going into a central fund, to be distributed as required. And what are all funds going to atm? It's not local services, that's for sure.
It's a tax. Not a fine. It was always going to be distributed for council funding. How does the motor tax online operate?

btw those that paid stamp duty in the last few years do have a valid argument imo. Much more than going on about bailing out the banks which could nearly do with it's own Godwin's type law, or at least be filed with "won't someone think of the children".

[mypost]

I don't believe that SF were that toxic - if the numbers had stacked up, both FG or Labour would've gone in with them if a programme for Govt could be agreed. FF aren't relevant to the discussion, since they signed the bloody programme that makes this charge a necessity for any Government/ Party that is going to stick with the Troika deal.

They wouldn't have asked SF. As far as the main parties are concerned, SF are toxic because of their history and can't be associated with them. SF need 83 seats, otherwise they can only ever be an opposition party.

[Macy]

They wouldn't have asked SF. As far as the main parties are concerned, SF are toxic because of their history and can't be associated with them. SF need 83 seats, otherwise they can only ever be an opposition party.
So the Ula, Greens and left wing independents such as mcgrath, pringle, wallace and o'sullivan wouldn't do a deal with sf? Like they haven't to form various technical groups in the dail over the years?

[bennocelt]

btw those that paid stamp duty in the last few years do have a valid argument imo. Much more than going on about bailing out the banks which could nearly do with it's own Godwin's type law, or at least be filed with "won't someone think of the children".


Well take off the FG goggles, there is a bank inspired recession on, or did you not know that!:rolleyes:

[Macy]

Yeah, I'm the well know resident blueshirt :rolleyes: First mention of (property) stamp duty was Lionel, the rest of you have just had general, pathetic, whinges about bailing out the banks.

[bennocelt]

Yeah, I'm the well know resident blueshirt :rolleyes: First mention of (property) stamp duty was Lionel, the rest of you have just had general, pathetic, whinges about bailing out the banks.

Yeah but you seem to think that that it has no reference to anything that is happening in Ireland at the moment (or at least admit it). All you are saying is support the government, blah blah blah, pay the taxes, blah blah blah. Whats your problem then if you are content with the government and all the taxes on the way - life must be rosy for you.

[Macy]

I am saying you shouldn't evade tax, and pointing out that this tax was part of the Troika Programme that both Government parties were committed too pre election. The electorate were, or should've been, aware of this before the election, and if they felt strongly enough that they'd evade tax, they should've voted for the other options (which were available). The current Government would be returned if there was an election tomorrow based on current opinion polls

Not agreeing with evading tax of a democratically elected government shouldn't be taken as an endorsement of the current Government, or taken as a fact that every thing is rosy for me or my family. However, I think they're pretty much doing what they said they'd do pre-election - unlike the latter years of the last Government, the current one still has an electoral and moral mandate for the way they are governing in general, as well as for this tax. It's called democracy.

[bennocelt]

And many people are exercising their rights not to pay a very regressive tax that will just be used to fund the bailout (one way or another)
And it might be a democracy but its not an informed electorate

[Macy]

It is not a right not to pay tax. Hence the charges and interest will start to accumulate. Yeah, we can see the electorate isn't informed by the attitude of many to this tax, as if though it's some kind of shock to them.

[bennocelt]

It is not a right not to pay tax. Hence the charges and interest will start to accumulate. Yeah, we can see the electorate isn't informed by the attitude of many to this tax, as if though it's some kind of shock to them.

Well you can simply refuse to pay it. Charges and interest wont frighten anyone, they will be lucky if the councils can figure out half the people who didn't pay. Its not a shock just that people have had enough of the government wasting our money, especially if huge amounts of taxpayers money is leaving the country to bail out banks and the like - but of course you know this, but you are still happy to pay for it. Good man.

[dahamsta]

Macy, this is Current Affairs, drop the righteous indignation please.

[Macy]

Wasn't my intention, if that's how it was coming across.

[Mr A]

The whole things is desperately depressing. The government have not handled it at all well, with different messages coming from different ministers. This also happened in the run up to the budget and annoys the hell out of me. The opposition have been at their opportunist best- it's bizarre to see leftists against steps towards a property tax (which this is). The same people protesting against cuts to anything whatsoever are protesting against every new tax or charge. I think a lot of the opposition to the charge is portrayed as principled when it's more just not wanting to pay.

Even without the bank debt, the country is haemorrhaging money so new taxes are inevitable, as are cutbacks. A situation where people decide which taxes to pay and which ones not to is a recipe for chaos to be honest- wide spread tax evasion is a big part of Greece's collapse.

Paid mine almost as soon as it was possible to do so. Ironically given some of the comments above this was partly inspired by someone from either ULA or SF saying that we should not pay it in a way that annoyed me (can't remember the detail now), and partly because I was always going to pay it just suited me to get it out of the way at that time.

[Real ale Madrid]

I didn't vote for FF / FG or Lab in the last election but I still paid the household charge.

I feel it incumbent on me to follow the wishes of the majority of the electorate and follow the programme the majority of the people in this country voted for. I wasn't happy about it, and will exercise my democratic right again next time to have my say.

Personally though, I think more tax without serious reforms in this country is a major 2 fingers to general public.
I'd love to know how many recommendations of the McCarthy report for reform have been implemented?
How many quango's have been closed?
Have we capped this ridiculous public service pension scheme yet?
Is this government running this country in an efficient manner?
Has anything fundamentally changed in the past year?
Maybe just maybe if the government could answer some of these questions in a positive manner then mabe the majority of people would sign up, help them out, and pay more tax.

[LmkSnr]

I didn't vote for FF / FG or Lab in the last election but I still paid the household charge.

I feel it incumbent on me to follow the wishes of the majority of the electorate and follow the programme the majority of the people in this country voted for. I wasn't happy about it, and will exercise my democratic right again next time to have my say.

Personally though, I think more tax without serious reforms in this country is a major 2 fingers to general public.
I'd love to know how many recommendations of the McCarthy report for reform have been implemented?
How many quango's have been closed?
Have we capped this ridiculous public service pension scheme yet?
Is this government running this country in an efficient manner?
Has anything fundamentally changed in the past year?
Maybe just maybe if the government could answer some of these questions in a positive manner then mabe the majority of people would sign up, help them out, and pay more tax.

FG are just puppets for the real rulers. look at the advisers to the goverment john brotun and peter sutherland aka goldman sachs who also were advisers to greece. These people are selling this country out .WAKE UP google john bruton dermot gleeson peter sutherland tri lateral commision .just learn whats really going on dunphy was right football is to keep the mass;s entertained and not have them thinking'.time now to watch liverpool get beat again.

[bennocelt]

Lot of cowards in Ireland me thinks. Love to moan about the government etc, but when push comes to shove.............

[BonnieShels]

...they don't break the law and pay their taxes.

[bennocelt]

.............and are good patriots one and all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAJnAJNvHAw

[Macy]

Well it's up over half households now, even using the higher figure. Wouldn't say people are cowardly for paying a tax, they're more cowardly at the ballot box for voting for parties that supported the programme if they don't agree with the terms.

[bennocelt]

That's if you believe the government figures. Anyway nothing will happen till after the referendum

[dahamsta]

I still haven't paid it. The only time it even occurs to me is when I see this thread. If they can't even get the flyer to me /before/ the deadline...

[bennocelt]

A bit of light relief.............
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/546183_10150700115314827_149315929826_9122629_8234 92729_n.jpg

[mypost]

Well it's up over half households now, even using the higher figure. Wouldn't say people are cowardly for paying a tax, they're more cowardly at the ballot box for voting for parties that supported the programme if they don't agree with the terms.

As has been repeatedly explained, the cowards had no choice. All parties of government were fully committed to the IMF programme before the election, and still are.

And trying to claim as a success that merely half the total have paid so far, is laughable. This is supposed to be a law apparantly. Instead it's been a joke from the very start, in the way it's been explained and implemented.

[Macy]

Who's claiming success? However, it does weaken the campaign against it if a majority have paid.
the fact that the electorate voted for candidates whose policies they claim not to support , rather than the other options which were clearly available is why they might be considered cowards. the electorate decide the parties of government - no one else.

[bennocelt]

Or coming from the other angle. People who claim not to support the government (and in the past FF) moaning about their policies yet agreeing with their policies and following their (or the IMF and co) "orders".
Remember that the majority of foot.ers voted for FF in that pre election poll a while back and (witout checking) I am sure a similar number went with FG and Labour the last time. So please, who is fooling who?

[mypost]

Who's claiming success? However, it does weaken the campaign against it if a majority have paid.

If 90%+ paid, then there may be an argument of it being a success. 50% is a pathetic compliance rate.

Official figures depend on who you speak to. The authorities didn't even know how many were eligible in the first place.

[bennocelt]

More fun and games
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0415/households-to-pay-cost-of-water-meters.html