View Full Version : Cycling 2012
swinfordfc
23/07/2012, 1:32 PM
I don't know - it's hard to see him going to another pro tour team as a leader. AG2R don't fully commit to him, but at the same time they've given him space to try and develop as a GC rider. He's probably benefitted from the system that now might be holding him back. Garmin wouldn't be a bad fit, as they seem to manage the multiple leaders/ whoever's going best is leader, better than anyone else.
That true ...... Garmin would not be a bad fit but he might not be a leader in a team but he kinda wasn't this year at AG2R either with J-C Peraud being they so call main man due to the trial trialing and look how that work out. Gesink cant do it in the big races at Rabobank so that a big options as is Omega Pharma as Horner is nearing the end, granted Boonan would be look after the one day classics but Roche would be perfect for the tours. I think with Hysedral and Martin already in Garmin Sharp, there would be no room in it for Roche but they would def improve his time trialing which badly needs work - he knows that himself. He was the only rider last Saturday to ride a normal bike in the time trial - fatal error
the real out of nowhere performances this last year have been Froome (that does make me go hmmmm).
Froome was always talented. I remember him leading over Alpe d'Huez before falling over the edge (back when he was Kenyan woth barloworld). He was the strongest rider in last year's Vuelta too (Sky ballsed it up trying to get Wiggins the win).
Roche is definitely gone. Not sure if Garmin would take him. They don't really have a true leader. Hydersjal, Danielson and to a lesser extent Martin are more protected than outright leader (despite Ryder winning the Giro). Roche won't even win the Tour but he could maybe challenge for Vuelta if he had a team around him (think climbs in Giro too hard). Could go to a team with the likes of Van den Bruck or maybe even BMC and work as super domestique in Tour, and have leader work for him in Spain.
swinfordfc
23/07/2012, 1:58 PM
Froome was always talented. I remember him leading over Alpe d'Huez before falling over the edge (back when he was Kenyan woth barloworld). He was the strongest rider in last year's Vuelta too (Sky ballsed it up trying to get Wiggins the win).
Roche is definitely gone. Not sure if Garmin would take him. They don't really have a true leader. Hydersjal, Danielson and to a lesser extent Martin are more protected than outright leader (despite Ryder winning the Giro). Roche won't even win the Tour but he could maybe challenge for Vuelta if he had a team around him (think climbs in Giro too hard). Could go to a team with the likes of Van den Bruck or maybe even BMC and work as super domestique in Tour, and have leader work for him in Spain.
Def cant see him with BMC ... Tejay is the bright hope there with Cadel Evans for a few more years
Def cant see him with BMC ... Tejay is the bright hope there with Cadel Evans for a few more years
Yeah, defo not BMC. I'm not sure why I put them in.
Froome was always talented. I remember him leading over Alpe d'Huez before falling over the edge (back when he was Kenyan woth barloworld). He was the strongest rider in last year's Vuelta too (Sky ballsed it up trying to get Wiggins the win).
He was decent (not sure on him going over the side - was that not John Lee Augustyn? (spelling wrong there I think!)), but not showing anywhere near the form he has in his last two grand tours. If he was that good, and that good a prospect, it's kinda surprising that he went into the Vuelta last year without a contract offer from Sky. I'm not saying he's doped, and as I've said before I think Sky are a clean team, but if I was asking questions (as some are) about any Sky rider it would be Froome not Wiggins.
Roche is definitely gone. Not sure if Garmin would take him. They don't really have a true leader. Hydersjal, Danielson and to a lesser extent Martin are more protected than outright leader (despite Ryder winning the Giro). Roche won't even win the Tour but he could maybe challenge for Vuelta if he had a team around him (think climbs in Giro too hard). Could go to a team with the likes of Van den Bruck or maybe even BMC and work as super domestique in Tour, and have leader work for him in Spain.
I'd agree with that - whether he'd be happy to concede that at this stage, and be happy with Super Domestique role, is a different matter. Even in BMC, who basically had Van Garderen and Evans when the selection was made - Roche would be an addition there imo. There's a few in Garmin that must be past the age of genuinely challenging as well (Danielson, Vande Velde), so I wouldn't rule it out. I'd love to see him have more of a go at the hilly classics as well. He's a bit of a kick if it came down to a small group of climbers.
Yeah, was Augustyn I was thinking about. Not the first time I've used that argument tis week either. D'oh!
I saw in the Indo yesterday that he looks likely to go to Saxo Bank. Interesting. Obviously Contador will be their main man for the Tour.. it'll be interesting to see whether Roche is used as a super domestique for him or as leader for Giro or Vuelta. They may not keep their world tour status, mad to think they can sign AG2R and be credited with his points. Crazy, crazy system! Will AG2R now back Roche for the Vuelta? If they don't get to keep his points they may be tempted to not do so, or even not select him at all.
Roche to Saxo is confirmed. It'll be interesting to see how that affects the dynamics in the Vuelta. To be honest if was running AG2R I might not even pick him- why accumulate points for a rival to take? And bizarrely it's in Saxo's interest to lend him a sneaky hand.
Edit: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roche-signs-for-saxo-bank-tinkoff-bank This confirms the deal and says AG2R will continue with him as leader for the Vuelta.
Second edit: Here's Roche's announcement: http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/nicolas-roche-joining-contador-team-a-huge-new-challenge-3187112.html
Meanwhile Brameier was not named on the provisional start list I saw for the Vuelta, nor was Martin.
Brammeier named in Tour of Utah start list, as is Deignan. http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/2012-tour-of-utah-start-list?ns_campaign=features&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=cyclingnews&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=features
swinfordfc
07/08/2012, 11:56 PM
Thats pretty impressive by AG2R to let Roche ride in the Vuelta, fair play to them. I don't think i would be so acceptable of it!
Roche and Martin 16th and 18th at San Sebastian. Good that they were in the front group, but disappointing that they couldn't finish higher as they're both pretty quick and there weren't a lot of real fast men up there. Both in decent shape before the Vuelta though.
Both mentioned the lack of a hill on the finish as a bit of a problem
Didn't realise Martin was riding the Vuelta. Delighted with that
Yeah, haven't seen him in a start list but he seems to think he's going anyway!
No Martin in the Vuelta though Roche nominally named as team leader (with panto villain adret in there too) for Ag2R
Hopefully he's looking for stages
Roche confirms in the Indo that he's there as a stage hunter and the team won't be supporting him for GC. Should be interesting. In a way it's a pity as I think the route suits him for GC.
Roche 11th on the first real test.. if he really is stage hunting only maybe he should have rolled in half an hour down. On the other hand he could easily end up in a decent GC slot without team help- he didn't get that much at the Tour!
Meanwhile Lance Armstrong's case to get the USADA investigation of him stopped has been dismissed. One in the eye for Lance and the UCI.
swinfordfc
20/08/2012, 10:28 PM
Roche 11th on the first real test.. if he really is stage hunting only maybe he should have rolled in half an hour down. On the other hand he could easily end up in a decent GC slot without team help- he didn't get that much at the Tour!
Meanwhile Lance Armstrong's case to get the USADA investigation of him stopped has been dismissed. One in the eye for Lance and the UCI.
Roche never gets any support from his team AG2R cause they no good in the serious mountains, he's going for GC by himself but i would not mind that. His biggest problem though is that he can not time trial and that is costing him a top 10 in le tour and a top 5 in the vuelta!
Yeah.. but the only time trial in this race isn't overly long and has a mountain in the middle, so should suit him pretty well. He also showed in the first TT at the Tour that he is getting better in that discipline.
swinfordfc
21/08/2012, 11:03 AM
Yeah.. but the only time trial in this race isn't overly long and has a mountain in the middle, so should suit him pretty well. He also showed in the first TT at the Tour that he is getting better in that discipline.
Yes saw that so that will suit him for sure. And yes he did well in the first time trial in Le Tour but his last time trial which was the important one to hold onto 11th spot, he was brutal and in the end was lucky to hold on to 12th spot, which was his best finish on the Le Tour. The Le Tour was a missed opportunity this year for him i think - he should have made the top ten if he went of a break in the mountains with other riders but he took the easy option to stay in the peleton.
Dan Martin re-signs for two years with Garmin according the the cycling news guy.
Edit: story here: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12687/Dan-Martin-extends-Garmin-Sharp-contract-until-end-2014.aspx
Roche 5th today.. he put at least a little time into a lot of the other big favourites with a late attack. Up to 8th now, just 24 seconds off the lead. He's been really aggressive so far, great to see.
swinfordfc
21/08/2012, 10:56 PM
Roche 5th today.. he put at least a little time into a lot of the other big favourites with a late attack. Up to 8th now, just 24 seconds off the lead. He's been really aggressive so far, great to see.
Bravo Roche .... great to see him back what he used to do best, attack - being aggressive. Next big test is thursday finish - tomorrow is just for the sprinters
Roche 9th today, 7th overall.. he's really going well.
swinfordfc
23/08/2012, 9:18 PM
Roche 9th today, 7th overall.. he's really going well.
He lost time today in last km ..... could got ahead of Gesink. Saturday is next big long test so here's hoping .....
bennocelt
24/08/2012, 8:59 AM
Can anyone explain exactly what LeMond is on about here, its not very clear. Is he talking about the lung capacity not changing through time or what,lol! Sounds interesting.
Good day for P Kimmage id say.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryH650Br8uI&feature=related
Spudulika
24/08/2012, 10:01 AM
"The bottom line is I played by the rules that were put in place by the UCI, WADA and USADA when I raced" - Anyone thinking of Clinton when reading this? "I did not have s''''l relations, with that woman, Miss Lewinsky."
http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/video-the-moment-paul-kimmage-took-on-lance-armstrong-on-doping-3209108.html
In fairness to Armstrong, being called a cancer is deliberately going to the lowest level for a man who beat the disease.
I don't think anything is too low for that dirtbag to be perfectly honest. He has consistently used cancer as a smokescreen and a defence, and this was another example of avoiding questions using that by deliberately taking Kimmage's comments utterly out of context.
Thats not to suggest Kimmage isn't a bit of a dick. Because he is. However right he is about Lance's doping
BonnieShels
24/08/2012, 1:25 PM
Here here.
Just reading about it there as I had a late night. Have to say I have spring in my step today.
The Sunday Times will be a must buy this weekend.
It is a shame that Armstrong isn't gonna fight it in one sense as this will limit the mud that will stick to him but victory is victory.
Huzzah.
BonnieShels
24/08/2012, 1:26 PM
Thats not to suggest Kimmage isn't a bit of a dick. Because he is. However right he is about Lance's doping
Also true Dodge but his dickishness pales into insignificance when compared with the Archdick.
Spudulika
24/08/2012, 2:12 PM
I don't have much of a doubt that Lance is dirty, but in cycling I don't see too many that are clean. I read an article by a former team of his (now a team major) and he was open about doping. There is so much that can come out in regards to doping (of one kind of another) that no sport is clean. I know it sounds bad, but I'm counting the days until the Jamaicans are outed en masse.
I don't have much of a doubt that Lance is dirty, but in cycling I don't see too many that are clean. I read an article by a former team of his (now a team major) and he was open about doping
You're completely misrepresenting that article. Here it is;
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-doping-out-of-sports.html?_r=2&ref=opinion&pagewanted=all
The author is Jonathon Vaughters. Former pro cyclist and now head of Slipstream Sports, the people behind the Garmin Sharp team
Spudulika
24/08/2012, 5:40 PM
You're completely misrepresenting that article. Here it is;
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-doping-out-of-sports.html?_r=2&ref=opinion&pagewanted=all
The author is Jonathon Vaughters. Former pro cyclist and now head of Slipstream Sports, the people behind the Garmin Sharp team
How was I misrepresenting it? Vaughters admitted to doping, about the temptations and the extra 2% it gave. He came clean on it.
swinfordfc
25/08/2012, 7:28 AM
Roche up to 6th after flat stage ...... Uran could not cope or is saving energy for today stage ...... its a big finish today!
swinfordfc
26/08/2012, 7:39 AM
Roche down to 7th after losing time on yestarday stage and i cant see getting any higher. He just does not have the legs to stayed in it all the way to the top of a mountain with the big boys when the pressure comes on and the time trial will drop him back further, he do well to finish inside the top 10 eventually.
How was I misrepresenting it? Vaughters admitted to doping, about the temptations and the extra 2% it gave. He came clean on it.
Because you missed the part about his current team being the forerunners in 'clean' cycling. Kimmage approved too. This isn't a former doper now in charge of a team so they're probably doping (Riis), its quite the opposit
Spudulika
27/08/2012, 4:00 PM
Because you missed the part about his current team being the forerunners in 'clean' cycling. Kimmage approved too. This isn't a former doper now in charge of a team so they're probably doping (Riis), its quite the opposit
Again Dodge, how did I misrepresent it? This is a person who admitted to doping in the past. Where is the misrepresentation?
Vaughters and Garmin-Sharp are nothing but a force for good in cycling.
Lance doped. Anyone with any semblance of sense knew that already. Pure attempt at damage limitation by not contesting the charges. He should've just come clean years ago. Even if I don't buy the argument that everyone was doing it, so I was still the best*, lots would have and we'd have moved on years ago and he'd be free to compete in Ironman. I don't buy that at all, as drugs effect different people differently. Best analogy I've read is to see how the same amount of alcohol effects different people.
I'm a bit disappointed in the reaction of the current peleton tbh, but wouldn't be as harsh as some - would they ever say enough for some people?
Spudulika
28/08/2012, 8:39 AM
Vaughters and Garmin-Sharp are nothing but a force for good in cycling.
Lance doped. Anyone with any semblance of sense knew that already. Pure attempt at damage limitation by not contesting the charges. He should've just come clean years ago. Even if I don't buy the argument that everyone was doing it, so I was still the best*, lots would have and we'd have moved on years ago and he'd be free to compete in Ironman. I don't buy that at all, as drugs effect different people differently. Best analogy I've read is to see how the same amount of alcohol effects different people.
I'm a bit disappointed in the reaction of the current peleton tbh, but wouldn't be as harsh as some - would they ever say enough for some people?
Agreed on Garmin-Sharp, they are transparent and open about what they do-did but it will take the UCI enforcing their own rules to make everyone play by them. I'm having a difficulty in figuring if doping comes from team to cyclist or each cyclist brings his own madness. I can only speak from how certain coaches from certain countries bring their own regimen for players (eg tennis) and how training can be conducted. While Irish or German coaches will run a million miles from allowing players use illegal substances to train harder in the off-season, Portuguese and Spanish coaches I encountered promote it. So is it a cyclist or team-led revolution/evolution that's needed.
One thing, listening to a number of discussions, reading articles etc on the whole doping in cycling debate is that the head of UCI seems to have been extremely naive, in denial or flat out lying with the drug problem in his sport. While I have time for McQuaid, surely he'd have to step down or go full steam ahead. Cycling isn't alone in this, boxing is as bad (especially at pro level) but with the top man in the sport having effectively refused to defend himself, and with evidence mounting on him. McQuaid needs to act now.
Real ale Madrid
28/08/2012, 8:50 AM
One thing, listening to a number of discussions, reading articles etc on the whole doping in cycling debate is that the head of UCI seems to have been extremely naive, in denial or flat out lying with the drug problem in his sport. While I have time for McQuaid, surely he'd have to step down or go full steam ahead. Cycling isn't alone in this, boxing is as bad (especially at pro level) but with the top man in the sport having effectively refused to defend himself, and with evidence mounting on him. McQuaid needs to act now.
What do you mean seems to have been naive or in denial - you can cross those two out anyway - the UCI have flat out lied about drugs in cycling be it from covered up tests to admission of a problem at all.
The only real way cycling is going to get a chance to emerge from this constant Fog of drugs and scandals is if the UCI is disbanded and a new organisation is formed to control cycling - similiar to the way the IASA had to disband and Swim Ireland had to form in its place. New people will be required etc but there is too much water under the bridge for the UCI to continue. If the UCI did its job right in 99 - Armstrong would have been thrown out there and then and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Not that there is any chance of that happening though.
Spudulika
28/08/2012, 9:59 AM
What do you mean seems to have been naive or in denial - you can cross those two out anyway - the UCI have flat out lied about drugs in cycling be it from covered up tests to admission of a problem at all.
The only real way cycling is going to get a chance to emerge from this constant Fog of drugs and scandals is if the UCI is disbanded and a new organisation is formed to control cycling - similiar to the way the IASA had to disband and Swim Ireland had to form in its place. New people will be required etc but there is too much water under the bridge for the UCI to continue. If the UCI did its job right in 99 - Armstrong would have been thrown out there and then and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Not that there is any chance of that happening though.
RAM - to prevent dahamsta having hassle from more litigious types, I wanted to leave options. I agree with your idea that the UCI needs to disband, it should have happened in 1998, 1999 was too late for them to hold any sort of high moral ground. I like cycling as a sport, it's a great spectacle and I still like watching it, though like athletics (especially sprinting) and swimming, I don't believe a thing that's on show, I'll give the benefit of the doubt but there are too many reasons to disbelieve.
Came across this today
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/08/the-armstrong-fallout-thoughts-and.html?m=1
Good link.. this podcast is very good as well: http://velocastcc.squarespace.com/race-radio/2012/8/27/lance-armstrong-special-edition.html
I'd second that podcast - was coming on to post the link. One thing that's really come out in recent days, which I can't say I was particularly aware off that most of the others in 1999 weren't willing to take the risk, but then saw Armstrong... Jan Ullrich is particularly interesting, as well as 1999 when he supposedly tried to go clean, when he was going to comeback in 2007 he packed in when he started training for his comeback and saw things still hadn't changed (according to his mentor). Shows that even some of the stars were conflicted about it, which isn't how it's sometimes painted.
Dodge
29/08/2012, 10:15 AM
Shows that even some of the stars were conflicted about it, which isn't how it's sometimes painted.
No, and Vaughters piece kinda backs that up too.
No, and Vaughters piece kinda backs that up too.
It might explain a lot of Ullrich's attitude "problems". Never seemed to fully commit to the lifestyle required, and it was put down to things like the pressure of fame, his East German upbringing etc. Could've been he just didn't like the non lifestyle things that he had to do to be competitive.
Spudulika
01/09/2012, 4:01 AM
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8321135/book-former-lance-armstrong-teammate-friend-turns-banal-very-ugly
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/road-biking/My-Life-With-Lance-Armstrong.html
I wonder if Armstrong has the courage to get back in the ring to disprove the evidence or make a tearful admission on tv and get on with things. I don't know how many people watched John Singleton's Marion Jones story, it was very funny in some ways as from the start he made it very clear (without admitting it) that he was a fan and his descriptions of her made it a little uncomfortable to follow. They never delved into the doping properly and it was all about the re-establishment of the heroine and how great she really is. Some sycophant could do the same for Lance.
Speaking of which:
http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8310275/armstrong-worth-honoring
Schumi
01/09/2012, 5:27 PM
I don't know how many people watched John Singleton's Marion Jones story
Was that the ESPN 30/30 one? That was an astonishing whitewash, I can't believe someone could make a programme like that without realising how ridiculous it was.
Stuttgart88
01/09/2012, 5:32 PM
I used to think that LA was a doper but that his conscience was probably relatively clear because he was only doing what his peers did and that it was all just the way it was then. I'm now much more of the opinion that he was probably the worst of them, being at the heart of a thoroughly professional doping system and leading a culture of fear and omertà.
Does anyone know if David Walsh's book could now be published without risk of legal reprise?
swinfordfc
02/09/2012, 8:27 AM
Roche still holding 7th spot which is great for him .......and i think he could get ahead of Gesink but the Garmin lad behind him has to be watch!
Schumi
02/09/2012, 7:44 PM
The race at the front has been brilliant entertainment. It's hard to believe that Contador is clean but he's making it a great race.
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