Series 13 - Fri 13/Sat 14 - Updates

[marinobohs]

I don't understand how the second somebody does something out of order they're automatically not fans of the club. They clearly are.

Yea, but they were not in a LOI ground (or near it). why should the name of LOI clubs be tarnished by being linked with people fighting on a public street ? they most probobly "support" Man U / Liverpool etc as well but I dont see them described as Liverpool or man u fans.

[bluewhitearmy]

Yea, but they were not in a LOI ground (or near it). why should the name of LOI clubs be tarnished by being linked with people fighting on a public street ? they most probobly "support" Man U / Liverpool etc as well but I dont see them described as Liverpool or man u fans.

They were near enough a ground.

And fair enough they may support them teams but were they coming from a Man U or Liverpool match? No they were coming from Shels V Cork....Was clearly Cork fans fighting Shels fans.

Young lad in hospital was 100% a Cork fan dont know if he was involved in any of the fighting he may just have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[passerrby]

its not that simple marino if you stage a game and invite people to that game you are in some way responsible for the outcome. now i know we will say that we cannot be responsible for what happens outside a ground but that is not strictly true. bottom line if we host an event and cannot ensure it does not lead to dangerous situations then there is two options
1. we cannot host the event
2. we pay the garda to ensure the safety issues
i

[SkStu]

I dont know lads. I think that MarinoBohs is spot on here. These are bebo kids who are latching onto clubs if you ask me. Its hard to pin blame on Cork or Shels or whomever it might be in these cases. When you think of clubs with "an element", Cork and Shels arent two clubs that top that list. Rovers, Bohs, Dundalk and UCD are the ones that come to mind first. Before schooliganism, i never had any hassle in Cork or at a Shels game. Bohs has a schooligan group, most of whom dont even attend games. The real Bohs "element" is a different group. Ditto Rovers and Dundalk.

Long story short, I dont consider the incident on friday night as Cork fans fighting Shels fans - i simply consider it 2 groups of knackers, who were at a soccer game with the sole purpose of having a scrap afterwards, going at it.

[FTA1895]

Were Corks idiot brigade or 'casuals' giving shels ultras right hand salutes during the first half? I'd hate to see that creeping in if things weren't bad enough.

They were indeed, but they all weren't Cork Casuals, there was one or two Shamrock Rovers lads in with them too which everyone found fairly odd.



Young lad in hospital was 100% a Cork fan dont know if he was involved in any of the fighting he may just have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

He got the bus down in the "Cork City Casual" lads anyway, so I'd be fairly certain he wasn't involved with the trouble which kicked off at the top of Richmond Rd.



Great to hear he's out of Intensive Care all the same, hopefully makes a full recovery.

[rebs23]

No. Complete rubbish and why post it?
Hope all Shels fans who were in the vicinity will go to the Garda to help identify the large group of Shels fans that attacked a 16 year old boy so badly it was thought he had been driven over by a bus. Long time since I have been on here and never again after reading this at a sensitive time. Why do people assume a certain version of events? Wrong place wrong time.

[marinobohs]

No. Complete rubbish and why post it?
Hope all Shels fans who were in the vicinity will go to the Garda to help identify the large group of Shels fans that attacked a 16 year old boy so badly it was thought he had been driven over by a bus. Long time since I have been on here and never again after reading this at a sensitive time. Why do people assume a certain version of events? Wrong place wrong time.

If you are as sure about the "details" as you make out perhaps you should go to the Gardai, especially as they differ so dramtically with several eye witness accouts on here.
Nobody on this thread has been insensitive about the 16 year old involved - most have made a point of hoping he pulls through - so enough of the martyrdom nonsense please. Many of the posters here witnessed the event or at least some of it and are stating what they saw not assuming anything, unlike (apparently) yourself.

[A face]

Folks, anyone that saw or heard anything last Friday night outside (or inside) Tolka Park, City and Shels fans alike can you please report everything you know to the Gardai at Fitzgibbon Street. This is vital to enable them to do anything about this.

From reports there were eight Cork lads (not City fans) throwing stuff at Shels fans when they were leaving the game and its understood that it was ordinary Shels fans who were leaving the ground, not part of any element. There must be a number of Shels fans who saw this and would be able to identify the Cork lads. Obviously it will be easy to identify the lad in hospital but there are another seven that are meant to have been with him.

Any information at all will be useful to the Gardai, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant. Please consider providing this info or urging others to provide it if you know they have information.


Division: Dublin Metropolitan Region, Fitzgibbon Street is in the DMR North Central Division and in Fitzgibbon Street District.

Fitzgibbon Street Garda Station,
Fitzgibbon Street,
Dublin 1.

Tel: +353 1 666 8400
Fax: +353 1 666 8440 (Public Office)
+353 1 666 8441 (District Office)

District HQ: Fitzgibbon Street
District HQ Tel: +353 1 666 8482

Divisional HQ : Store Street
Divisional HQ Tel: +353 1 666 8092

[Red Army]

Is there any real will from the clubs to ban all these casuals and ultras from games? It's not as if we're talking about thousands of people here.

[BonnieShels]

I'm still in mourning.
You at denial or acceptance? :)

Will have to get you a beer to help ya through the next time we're at Tolka.

[A face]

I don't understand how the second somebody does something out of order they're automatically not fans of the club. They clearly are.

Because fans of our club would have been in the ground for the whole game. If someone was outside of the ground not looking at the football on display (top of the table clash) and looking to get involved in anti-social behaviour to the point where there lives are threatened then they would not be described as football fans.


Is there any real will from the clubs to ban all these casuals and ultras from games? It's not as if we're talking about thousands of people here.

Its not about will any more, its requirement, its event management, its about responsibility and adhere to guideline and procedure. If you cant do it then ..... and i don't need to finish this sentence .... but i will ..... You cant host LOI football games at your ground, end of ... fact .... end of .... what ever you need to hear.

Come to think of it there is no sign of any statement from the powers that be, in the league.

[avvenalaf]

Folks, anyone that saw or heard anything last Friday night outside (or inside) Tolka Park, City and Shels fans alike can you please report everything you know to the Gardai at Fitzgibbon Street. This is vital to enable them to do anything about this.

From reports there were eight Cork lads (not City fans) throwing stuff at Shels fans when they were leaving the game and its understood that it was ordinary Shels fans who were leaving the ground, not part of any element. There must be a number of Shels fans who saw this and would be able to identify the Cork lads. Obviously it will be easy to identify the lad in hospital but there are another seven that are meant to have been with him.

Any information at all will be useful to the Gardai, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant. Please consider providing this info or urging others to provide it if you know they have information.


Division: Dublin Metropolitan Region, Fitzgibbon Street is in the DMR North Central Division and in Fitzgibbon Street District.

Fitzgibbon Street Garda Station,
Fitzgibbon Street,
Dublin 1.

Tel: +353 1 666 8400
Fax: +353 1 666 8440 (Public Office)
+353 1 666 8441 (District Office)

District HQ: Fitzgibbon Street
District HQ Tel: +353 1 666 8482

Divisional HQ : Store Street
Divisional HQ Tel: +353 1 666 8092

I'm puzzled - what would eight Cork people be doing at a First Division match in Tolka Park on a Friday night if they weren't City fans and, now that, thankfully, the young lad is in recovery, why doesn't some bobby in Fitzgibbon Street stroll across to the Mater and ask him for the names and addresses of his seven mates?

[bluewhitearmy]

I'm puzzled - what would eight Cork people be doing at a First Division match in Tolka Park on a Friday night if they weren't City fans and, now that, thankfully, the young lad is in recovery, why doesn't some bobby in Fitzgibbon Street stroll across to the Mater and ask him for the names and addresses of his seven mates?

How do you know that they haven't?

[Lim till i die]

Bohs havent had a schooligan problem in years, its now nearly impossible to get into a game if you're under 18 and not with an adult. Once they got banned from the ground they started harrasing Shels fans outside Tolka but afaik they got bored of that aswell.

Fair Enough.

The perception is still out there though (hence my post) so that's why Bohs were totally, unfairly dragged into it imo.

That's not me having a go at Bohemains btw. :)


Were Corks idiot brigade or 'casuals' giving shels ultras right hand salutes during the first half? I'd hate to see that creeping in if things weren't bad enough.

LOL!!


Big long police appeal thingy that I haven't fully quoted for ease of posting

Could the dogs in the streets around Turners Cross not point the Gardai in the direction of the seven youngfellas that were with the lad without you putting appeals on the interweb??

FFS, I could probably identify them from pictures, never mind a Cork fan.


Because fans of our club would have been in the ground for the whole game. If someone was outside of the ground not looking at the football on display (top of the table clash) and looking to get involved in anti-social behaviour to the point where there lives are threatened then they would not be described as football fans.

Mealy mouthed nonsense, these children whether you like it or not are associated with Cork City FC, the club has to bear some responsibility for their actions.

I'll grant you the banned lists and pictures, fair enough, it's something Shels don't bother doing (before whinging en masse about their "treatment"), but the club needs to go public on these cretins where possible, name them and shame them, feck it ring their parents. This "Ah shur we banned them, they're nothing to do with us" craic doesn't really cut it. CCFC pointing the Gardai in the direction of this fellas social group might be a good start.

To be honest I'd never go to the guards so I'm invoking the righteousness of the internet warrior here, but then I'd also never take on the responsibility of running a football club. :)


Its not about will any more, its requirement, its event management, its about responsibility and adhere to guideline and procedure. If you cant do it then ..... and i don't need to finish this sentence .... but i will ..... You cant host LOI football games at your ground, end of ... fact .... end of .... what ever you need to hear.

Your first paragraph is you giving your hands a good wash. In the second paragraph you then proceed to buck passing.

In an ideal world what you are saying is of course correct but the league is what it is and isn't changing anytime soon unfortunately, we don't all have shiny Turners Cross' around the corner to rent.

What you neglect to mention when talking up the virtues of event control is the unecessary extra expenditure that policing these cretins brings to the clubs who have to host them. Can you imagine if this lad had died?? Not only are our crowds against Shels and Cork reduced (I wouldn't bring my youngfella if I don't know the craic so wouldn't expect anyone else to) but our security costs sky rocket, we go from no guards to at least a half dozen guards, a dozen stewards to forty stewards. All this because Shels and Cork City have failed to act decisively when dealing with their baby hooligans. Is this fair?? Is this Limericks fault?? Is it Wexfords?? Is it the FAIs??

The chickens very nearly came home to roost last Friday night. The problem I have is that all clubs would end up unfairly tarnished by the nonsense.

In summary, to somehow imply that the behaviour of travelling supporters should be the sole responsibility of the club hosting them is absolute nonsense imo.

If you want a league with event control, planning and grounds like you envisage above then I suggest Cork pull out of the league ask Rovers to join them and ye can play each 30 times a season with gangs of feral children travelling up and down the motorway to get their heads kicked in and it being absolutely nobodies fault.

EDIT: I'M LEAVING THIS LAST SPEEL UP FOR REPLIES INCASE I DIDN'T (it took me like three minutes to write!) BUT JUST READING BACK OVER YOUR POST I REALISE I COULD HAVE TOTALLY MISINTERPRETED THAT BIT I QUOTED. *palmsface*


Come to think of it there is no sign of any statement from the powers that be, in the league

1. FAI in being innefective shocker.
2. In fairness to them (:eek:) it hasn't actually came out that this is football related yet (praise Allah!!) so maybe the FAI are trying to let the smoke clear?? No need to give the Herald any more excuse for a 24 page pullout!!

[A face]

I'm puzzled - what would eight Cork people be doing at a First Division match in Tolka Park on a Friday night if they weren't City fans

There were thousands of Cork people visiting and living Dublin the same night, some of them near the ground. Some of them in pubs, B&Bs, hotels around the ground, and alot of them probably never knew there was a game on. But most of them were not involved in anti social behaviour. Those guys weren't even in the ground, looking to cause trouble and got what they came for.

All City fans would have been there in the ground looking at the football, not ouside the ground looking for trouble.


and, now that, thankfully, the young lad is in recovery, why doesn't some bobby in Fitzgibbon Street stroll across to the Mater and ask him for the names and addresses of his seven mates?

They probably have but as always its up to people there to provide the information to assist them. Everyone knows that Gardai are under resourced now and if anyone with half an idea about cleaning up the name of our league then we know giving them info to be able to cut through all the crap and deal with this situation is the best course of action.

[bluewhitearmy]

There were thousands of Cork people visiting and living Dublin the same night, some of them near the ground. Some of them in pubs, B&Bs, hotels around the ground, and alot of them probably never knew there was a game on. But most of them were not involved in anti social behaviour. Those guys weren't even in the ground, looking to cause trouble and got what they came for.

All City fans would have been there in the ground looking at the football, not ouside the ground looking for trouble.




They probably have but as always its up to people there to provide the information to assist them. Everyone knows that Gardai are under resourced now and if anyone with half an idea about cleaning up the name of our league then we know giving them info to be able to cut through all the crap and deal with this situation is the best course of action.


So now your saying it was random people from Cork taht are euither living in our were visiting Dublin at the time......Oh dear.


The gang of lads were in the ground they left at half time and were told while leaving they would not be allowed back in so in teh 1st half they were CCFC fans but as soon as they left at half time they weren't is it?

[micls]

I'll grant you the banned lists and pictures, fair enough, it's something Shels don't bother doing (before whinging en masse about their "treatment"), but the club needs to go public on these cretins where possible, name them and shame them, feck it ring their parents. This "Ah shur we banned them, they're nothing to do with us" craic doesn't really cut it. CCFC pointing the Gardai in the direction of this fellas social group might be a good start.


You accept we've banned them and informed other clubs they are banned and yet still try to somehow blame the club?

Go public? How exactly? You think we can start posting pictures/names of underage kids online or something? There's a million things wrong with that.

The Gardai down here are well aware of the crowd, they have been pointed out many times and spoken to by the Gardai.
Call their parents? Where exactly do we get their parents numbers? What if we do and then the parents tell us to go feck ourselves. That's a job for the Gardai, not the club.

I will always advocate zero tolerance but similarly there is always a limit to what clubs can do. Once they ban those involved and make sure other clubs are aware of it, and the gardai are aware of possible trouble (goes through the event controller) then what more can they do.

What I don't understand is the complete lack of Gardai. I know in Turner's cross there is a minimum amount of Gardai, per game depending on opposition which are required in order for the event to go ahead. The club pays for these Gardai inside the ground but have litte/no control over how many are deemed necessary. This is decided by the Gardai.

Then there is always extra Gardai outside the ground keeping an eye on the toerags. If anything does look like starting it is stopped fairly quickly.

Where were these gardai in Tolka? Why the complete lack of a presence. Surely they are well aware that Shels, and us, have an element.

[A face]

Fair Enough.

The perception is still out there though (hence my post) so that's why Bohs were totally, unfairly dragged into it imo.

That's not me having a go at Bohemains btw. :)

LOL!!

Could the dogs in the streets around Turners Cross not point the Gardai in the direction of the seven youngfellas that were with the lad without you putting appeals on the interweb??

FFS, I could probably identify them from pictures, never mind a Cork fan.

Mealy mouthed nonsense, these children whether you like it or not are associated with Cork City FC, the club has to bear some responsibility for their actions.

I'll grant you the banned lists and pictures, fair enough, it's something Shels don't bother doing (before whinging en masse about their "treatment"), but the club needs to go public on these cretins where possible, name them and shame them, feck it ring their parents. This "Ah shur we banned them, they're nothing to do with us" craic doesn't really cut it. CCFC pointing the Gardai in the direction of this fellas social group might be a good start.

To be honest I'd never go to the guards so I'm invoking the righteousness of the internet warrior here, but then I'd also never take on the responsibility of running a football club. :)

Your first paragraph is you giving your hands a good wash. In the second paragraph you then proceed to buck passing.

In an ideal world what you are saying is of course correct but the league is what it is and isn't changing anytime soon unfortunately, we don't all have shiny Turners Cross' around the corner to rent.

What you neglect to mention when talking up the virtues of event control is the unecessary extra expenditure that policing these cretins brings to the clubs who have to host them. Can you imagine if this lad had died?? Not only are our crowds against Shels and Cork reduced (I wouldn't bring my youngfella if I don't know the craic so wouldn't expect anyone else to) but our security costs sky rocket, we go from no guards to at least a half dozen guards, a dozen stewards to forty stewards. All this because Shels and Cork City have failed to act decisively when dealing with their baby hooligans. Is this fair?? Is this Limericks fault?? Is it Wexfords?? Is it the FAIs??

The chickens very nearly came home to roost last Friday night. The problem I have is that all clubs would end up unfairly tarnished by the nonsense.

In summary, to somehow imply that the behaviour of travelling supporters should be the sole responsibility of the club hosting them is absolute nonsense imo.

If you want a league with event control, planning and grounds like you envisage above then I suggest Cork pull out of the league ask Rovers to join them and ye can play each 30 times a season with gangs of feral children travelling up and down the motorway to get their heads kicked in and it being absolutely nobodies fault.

EDIT: I'M LEAVING THIS LAST SPEEL UP FOR REPLIES INCASE I DIDN'T (it took me like three minutes to write!) BUT JUST READING BACK OVER YOUR POST I REALISE I COULD HAVE TOTALLY MISINTERPRETED THAT BIT I QUOTED. *palmsface*

1. FAI in being innefective shocker.
2. In fairness to them (:eek:) it hasn't actually came out that this is football related yet (praise Allah!!) so maybe the FAI are trying to let the smoke clear?? No need to give the Herald any more excuse for a 24 page pullout!!




So now your saying it was random people from Cork taht are euither living in our were visiting Dublin at the time......Oh dear.

The gang of lads were in the ground they left at half time and were told while leaving they would not be allowed back in so in teh 1st half they were CCFC fans but as soon as they left at half time they weren't is it?

I cant respond in full, i dont have the time to read the posts as i need to work but i will return and reply later on.

But for the record, what i am trying to do is highlight the differences between the eight lads from Cork who travelled with Cork support and for all intents and purposes were City fans. Personally I don't regard them as City / LOI fans because of the damage they have done and hope they are dealt with by the Gardai and that they throw the book at them. I hope its dealt with after the queens visit so it wont be brushed off and made light off.

There is a good chance here imo to press charges and make them answerable and hope to god that this happens.

Again, i will respond later on when i get a chance.

[Eminence Grise]

I'm puzzled ... why doesn't some bobby in Fitzgibbon Street stroll across to the Mater and ask him for the names and addresses of his seven mates?

If he was in ICU, then stepped down to a HDU ward, for medical reasons Gardai probably wouldn't be allowed to interview him.

[Lim till i die]

You accept we've banned them and informed other clubs they are banned and yet still try to somehow blame the club?

Whether you like it or not, it's still partially the clubs fault.

Was there a CCFC committee member on the away turnstile helping Shels identify and turn troublemakers away?? If not, why not??


Go public? How exactly? You think we can start posting pictures/names of underage kids online or something? There's a million things wrong with that.

The Gardai down here are well aware of the crowd, they have been pointed out many times and spoken to by the Gardai.
Call their parents? Where exactly do we get their parents numbers? What if we do and then the parents tell us to go feck ourselves. That's a job for the Gardai, not the club.

I was engaging in hyperbole for the sake of an internet argument it happens.

Since Friday have CCFC went to the Gardai with information about this child and his "firm"??


I will always advocate zero tolerance but similarly there is always a limit to what clubs can do. Once they ban those involved and make sure other clubs are aware of it, and the gardai are aware of possible trouble (goes through the event controller) then what more can they do.

CCFC haven't gone above and beyond really though have they?? Have the guards been contacted since Friday?? Was there a member of your committee at the turnstile in Tolka Park on Friday to identify troublemakers?? Did any one of your committee ring the gardai when they were causing trouble in the first half?? (I know technically not their responsibility but still twould be nice) Have these fellas details been circulated by the club around travel companies in Cork to prevent them hiring transport to away games?? (maybe on tricky legal ground there, has the club discussed the possibility with the Gardai??)

Point ultimately being the more you do the less this stink can be associated with your club, CCFC do lots but have they done everything in their power??


What I don't understand is the complete lack of Gardai. I know in Turner's cross there is a minimum amount of Gardai, per game depending on opposition which are required in order for the event to go ahead. The club pays for these Gardai inside the ground but have litte/no control over how many are deemed necessary. This is decided by the Gardai.

Then there is always extra Gardai outside the ground keeping an eye on the toerags. If anything does look like starting it is stopped fairly quickly.

Where were these gardai in Tolka? Why the complete lack of a presence. Surely they are well aware that Shels, and us, have an element

Dublin on Friday night, maybe the Gardai were busy with other issues besides a dozen teenage warriors. Did anyone ring the guards when they saw these youngfellas acting the maggot?? Did anyone from the vast majority fantastic, travelling, Cork City tell these youngfellas to cop the funk on. It's happened loads of times at Limerick games (happened me a couple of times!!) if someone steps out of line the group sorts them out.

Could ultimately be down to money too of course, guards cost serious amounts and Conan Byrne has to be paid.

It irks me a little that you'll always have at least a dozen of Templemores finest present in or around when we visit Tolka but it just shows you superintendents read the Sunday World too I suppose.

[harleyleeds]

If he was in ICU, then stepped down to a HDU ward, for medical reasons Gardai probably wouldn't be allowed to interview him.


Why on earth not, assuming he can talk.

[CMcC]

Whether you like it or not, it's still partially the clubs fault.

Was there a CCFC committee member on the away turnstile helping Shels identify and turn troublemakers away?? If not, why not??



I was engaging in hyperbole for the sake of an internet argument it happens.

Since Friday have CCFC went to the Gardai with information about this child and his "firm"??



CCFC haven't gone above and beyond really though have they?? Have the guards been contacted since Friday?? Was there a member of your committee at the turnstile in Tolka Park on Friday to identify troublemakers?? Did any one of your committee ring the gardai when they were causing trouble in the first half?? (I know technically not their responsibility but still twould be nice) Have these fellas details been circulated by the club around travel companies in Cork to prevent them hiring transport to away games?? (maybe on tricky legal ground there, has the club discussed the possibility with the Gardai??)

Point ultimately being the more you do the less this stink can be associated with your club, CCFC do lots but have they done everything in their power??



Dublin on Friday night, maybe the Gardai were busy with other issues besides a dozen teenage warriors. Did anyone ring the guards when they saw these youngfellas acting the maggot?? Did anyone from the vast majority fantastic, travelling, Cork City tell these youngfellas to cop the funk on. It's happened loads of times at Limerick games (happened me a couple of times!!) if someone steps out of line the group sorts them out.

Could ultimately be down to money too of course, guards cost serious amounts and Conan Byrne has to be paid.

It irks me a little that you'll always have at least a dozen of Templemores finest present in or around when we visit Tolka but it just shows you superintendents read the Sunday World too I suppose.

Thats a fair point. Its one thing banning people and sending notification to away venues but that wont work. We dont have the systems to support that. The most effective method is having an away security officer or event controller at the home turnstyle where the away support enter the ground. They can point out known banned trouble makers and its up to the home security people to refuse entry or not. If Cork did that then I would deem them to have done all they can and lived up to their responsibilities. It may not have prevented what happened the other night as it happened away from the ground but IMO if it was happening regularly it may have meant these lads wouldnt have bothered travelling all the way to Dublin knowing they were most likely not going to get in. Other clubs do it and it seems to work. And its busines as usual in the UK.

[micls]

There have been times we have sent a security officer to help the away team, I've seen it in Limerick and Waterford. I don't know if there was someone there on Friday.

Surely though pictures should be enough? It costs enough to run your own games without having to pay for security to travel to Dublin to help them police their ground.

As much as you'd think it would stop the idiots from turning up, it never did before. Even when it has happened and they have been kept outside they just hang around to cause trouble afterwards anyway. For them its a day out on the **** with their 'mates' for a scrap. I don't think the game itself is a huge part of the trip. Thats where the Gardai have to come in.

I don't know if the club have been in contact with the Gardai since, but I'd imagine so. I'd imagine the Gardai would have been in contact with both clubs. The club issued a statement saying it's under Garda investigation and they won't be saying more on the matter for the moment.

As for calling the Gardai cos they were winding up Shels fans, are you serious? You'd be laughed off the phone. The gardai are too busy to even turn up at the game but you think theyd respond to someone ringing to say there's kids acting the dick (not enough for even stewards to throw them out), and annoying other fans?

The gardai may have been busy, it's odd though since theyve managed to be there for every other shels game Ive ever been to, and all our games in Dublin. It can't be money as mentioned because the gardai don't give you an option inside the ground. It's pay up or the event doesn't go ahead. Usually there are plenty of Gardai at these games, whether it would have mad a difference I'm not sure but it certainly wouldnt have hurt. I'd imagine the garda budget is wiped because of the queen and thats why they weren't there.

[passerrby]

lads this is a very complex problem and one that requires a combination of funds and cooperation from many sides to even begin to address. but clubs need to be as proactive as possible in addressing the matter however they alone cannot solve the problem.
p.s Im sorry A face but a club cannot wash its hands of supporters just because they act like arseholes and are more interested in the event than the game on the pitch

[Lim till i die]

There have been times we have sent a security officer to help the away team, I've seen it in Limerick and Waterford. I don't know if there was someone there on Friday.

Surely though pictures should be enough? It costs enough to run your own games without having to pay for security to travel to Dublin to help them police their ground.

Pictures aren't enough. If you're doing all you can you send the club official. Supposing a few of them have grown little bum fluff tashers or gotten new coats or something, pictures are no good then. A picture of me from last year would be kind of useless for example.

As for it costing enough to run your own games, that's tough look at the extra expense other completely innocent clubs have to incur becasue of the idiots that have attached themselves to your club.

If Cork had had a club official on the turnstile and these fellas had been refused entry as a result, then you'd be able to wash your hands of it to a far greater extent. As it is they came in as Cork fans and watched half the game as Cork fans and because Cork didn't do everything in their power to prevent this Cork must shoulder some of the blame.


As for calling the Gardai cos they were winding up Shels fans, are you serious? You'd be laughed off the phone. The gardai are too busy to even turn up at the game but you think theyd respond to someone ringing to say there's kids acting the dick (not enough for even stewards to throw them out), and annoying other fans?

You were the one demanding guards be present, now you think they're too busy to respond to an incident...

Your "kids acting the dick" talk is pretty disengenuous aswell, I'd imagine the way that phonecall would go would actually be "Hello, this is blah blah of Cork City FC, I'm just ringing to let you know that some well known hooligan elements of our support have gained entry to Tolka Park and are trying to cause trouble at the Shelbourne end of the ground." Might be taken a bit more seriously than "well biiiy, there's some youngfellas here teasing some youngfellas". Now maybe the guards still wouldn't have bothered responding, but at least Cork City would have been seen to be doing all that they can, but they weren't and they didn't, hence as a club they must shoulder some of the blame.

[A face]

Could the dogs in the streets around Turners Cross not point the Gardai in the direction of the seven youngfellas that were with the lad without you putting appeals on the interweb??

Dogs, fans, locals, club members, barmen or bouncers .... i dont care who points them out just as long as its done. And i dont care how the message gets out there just as long as it does. The people who have information on this matter have a responsiblity to inform the Gardai and if any LOI if the have the league at heart they would report it in effort to resolve this problem.


FFS, I could probably identify them from pictures, never mind a Cork fan.

Well do it then ..... and what pictures are you on about.


Mealy mouthed nonsense, these children whether you like it or not are associated with Cork City FC, the club has to bear some responsibility for their actions.

So where do we differ


I'll grant you the banned lists and pictures, fair enough, it's something Shels don't bother doing (before whinging en masse about their "treatment"), but the club needs to go public on these cretins where possible, name them and shame them, feck it ring their parents. This "Ah shur we banned them, they're nothing to do with us" craic doesn't really cut it. CCFC pointing the Gardai in the direction of this fellas social group might be a good start.

Everything the club can do they are doing. See micls's post


Your first paragraph is you giving your hands a good wash. In the second paragraph you then proceed to buck passing.

Ahhh .... i'm doing neither !! :(


What you neglect to mention when talking up the virtues of event control is the unecessary extra expenditure that policing these cretins brings to the clubs who have to host them. Can you imagine if this lad had died?? Not only are our crowds against Shels and Cork reduced (I wouldn't bring my youngfella if I don't know the craic so wouldn't expect anyone else to) but our security costs sky rocket, we go from no guards to at least a half dozen guards, a dozen stewards to forty stewards. All this because Shels and Cork City have failed to act decisively when dealing with their baby hooligans. Is this fair?? Is this Limericks fault?? Is it Wexfords?? Is it the FAIs??

Thats why its even more important to report any info and get this sorted out.


In summary, to somehow imply that the behaviour of travelling supporters should be the sole responsibility of the club hosting them is absolute nonsense imo. If you want a league with event control, planning and grounds like you envisage above then I suggest Cork pull out of the league ask Rovers to join them and ye can play each 30 times a season with gangs of feral children travelling up and down the motorway to get their heads kicked in and it being absolutely nobodies fault.

EDIT: I'M LEAVING THIS LAST SPEEL UP FOR REPLIES INCASE I DIDN'T (it took me like three minutes to write!) BUT JUST READING BACK OVER YOUR POST I REALISE I COULD HAVE TOTALLY MISINTERPRETED THAT BIT I QUOTED. *palmsface*

I was thinking that you had wires crossed alright .... being honest, i hope the guy pulls through but i have no worries in saying he deserves everything he gets (legally speaking, not physical)


1. FAI in being innefective shocker.

They need to step up and lead on this one.


2. In fairness to them (:eek:) it hasn't actually came out that this is football related yet (praise Allah!!) so maybe the FAI are trying to let the smoke clear?? No need to give the Herald any more excuse for a 24 page pullout!!

I'd agree with no giving the Herald anything to beat a drum with because the Herald dont want any problems sorted out, they prefer to see this kind of thing happening so they can sell more papers.

[micls]

You were the one demanding guards be present, now you think they're too busy to respond to an incident....

Yes, gardai should be present at public events like these. They are in most situations. However reporting an 'incident' of kids who've committed no crime and haven't even done enough to warrant being kicked out of the stadium is not something I'd expect them to respond to.


Your "kids acting the dick" talk is pretty disengenuous aswell, I'd imagine the way that phonecall would go would actually be "Hello, this is blah blah of Cork City FC, I'm just ringing to let you know that some well known hooligan elements of our support have gained entry to Tolka Park and are trying to cause trouble at the Shelbourne end of the ground." Might be taken a bit more seriously than "well biiiy, there's some youngfellas here teasing some youngfellas". Now maybe the guards still wouldn't have bothered responding, but at least Cork City would have been seen to be doing all that they can, but they weren't and they didn't, hence as a club they must shoulder some of the blame.

As mentioned above the 'causing trouble' wasn't even enough for stewards to think they should be kicked out so I doubt it was in any way serious (I wasn't there). I would imagine it was the usual singing, come on signs etc. You cannot possibly blame the fans for not calling the gardai because teenagers were acting the dick. Inside the ground, nothing happened. There was no fighting, throwing things etc, at this stage it's not a matter for the gardai, but for the stewards.

I would suggest that security at the game should have let the gardai know there was a possibility of trouble outside. I imagine all city fans would have presumed there'd be gardai outside after the game, as is normal. They can't have known they'd taken the night off from it. Usually these kids act the dick, the gardai tell them to feck off and send them on their bus. I'd imagine the same was expected by most people.

[Lim till i die]

As mentioned above the 'causing trouble' wasn't even enough for stewards to think they should be kicked out so I doubt it was in any way serious (I wasn't there). I would imagine it was the usual singing, come on signs etc. You cannot possibly blame the fans for not calling the gardai because teenagers were acting the dick.

Didn't blame the fans anywhere?? Why don't the Cork fans pull these fellas actually on an aside if they think they're acting the muppet??

What I've been saying is the committee of Cork City should be doing everything in their power to stop the kids acting the dick, they didn't Friday and therefore must shoulder some of the blame.

[passerrby]

as clubs if only we could come up with a way of getting their money but not letting them in we;d be sorted

[Lim till i die]

as clubs if only we could come up with a way of getting their money but not letting them in we;d be sorted

Organised cage fighting away from the grounds??

Easily led infants love the oul cage fighting too.

[Eminence Grise]

Why on earth not, assuming he can talk.

If he was in ICU, he was likely to have been any or all of intubated, sedated, or otherwise heavily medicated, and unable to talk. ICU has a one nurse to one patient ratio, and consultants won't take that kind of risk with patients. High dependency has a 2 to 1 ratio, and patients are still heavily medicated. (Mrs Grise had a stint nursing in the Mater's ICU.)

On top of that, I'm not sure if a statement taken from a heavily medicated patient (even one able to talk) would be acceptable in procuring an arrest warrant.

[harleyleeds]

If he was in ICU, he was likely to have been any or all of intubated, sedated, or otherwise heavily medicated, and unable to talk. ICU has a one nurse to one patient ratio, and consultants won't take that kind of risk with patients. High dependency has a 2 to 1 ratio, and patients are still heavily medicated. (Mrs Grise had a stint nursing in the Mater's ICU.)

On top of that, I'm not sure if a statement taken from a heavily medicated patient (even one able to talk) would be acceptable in procuring an arrest warrant.


With all due respect my son (14) was in icu for 8 days in Jan with a very serious head injury that involved heavy bleading and the brain shifting 7cm, and medication is the last thing you get because they like you to be alert as possible. Anyways I hope he is recovering and does so compleatly for even if he is a thug/gobs**te he deserves a chance to amend his ways(not saying he is I dont know anything about it), so get well .

[Eminence Grise]

With all due respect my son (14) was in icu for 8 days in Jan with a very serious head injury that involved heavy bleading and the brain shifting 7cm, and medication is the last thing you get because they like you to be alert as possible. Anyways I hope he is recovering and does so compleatly for even if he is a thug/gobs**te he deserves a chance to amend his ways(not saying he is I dont know anything about it), so get well .

With equal respect, ICU treatment depends on the nature of the illness or injury. Since we're both unaware of the precise nature of his injuries, rather than going off on a tangent we should probably let this one rest. Like you, I hope he recovers, and is better for his experience.

I also hope your son is fully recovered - that sounds like a particularly nasty injury.

[A face]

Anyways I hope he is recovering and does so compleatly for even if he is a thug/gobs**te he deserves a chance to amend his ways(not saying he is I dont know anything about it), so get well.

With all due respect, the guy is old enough to know right from wrong and made his own choices and that was the chance he was given. He didn't take that chance so he and his mates should be dealt with. If they are not then this will just exacerbate the situation and leave it open to have people being beaten to near death every weekend. If this case is swept under the carpet then it will only get worse. This particular group of lads are already out of hand, what more proof do you actually need. You cant be making allowances every time this stuff happens. Its time to take some action and prevent this getting any worse.

[harleyleeds]

With equal respect, ICU treatment depends on the nature of the illness or injury. Since we're both unaware of the precise nature of his injuries, rather than going off on a tangent we should probably let this one rest. Like you, I hope he recovers, and is better for his experience.

I also hope your son is fully recovered - that sounds like a particularly nasty injury.

Very true, I thought it was a head injury. With my son it was the scariest 24 hours of our lives waiting and hoping bleeding stopped and that he didnt suffer any seazures in the first 7 days. Then they took him off the anti seazure drip and I cant describe the releif we felt. This is why I feel so bad for someone else going through the same. Im sure most of us have done something at some time that could (with a little help) have developed into us or some other party being seriously injured . I think this kid has already being givin any lesson that can be learned so what would be the point in making it worse for him and more so for his parents(this is for A FACE by the way not you. Football matches will have trouble and we would be nieve to think it will be stamped out.

[A face]

I think this kid has already being givin any lesson that can be learned so what would be the point in making it worse for him and more so for his parents (this is for A FACE by the way not you. Football matches will have trouble and we would be nieve to think it will be stamped out.

Simple .... because of this (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0018.html), this (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0016.html) and this (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0015.html).

The most that can happen is ten years imprisonment though.

[harleyleeds]

Simple .... because of this (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0018.html), this (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0016.html) and this (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0015.html).

The most that can happen is ten years imprisonment though.

Well your certainly entitled to your opinion but zero tolerence rarely works. Mistakes happen. Ten years for fighting when your 16, the whole country would be in the nick .

[CSFShels]

Well your certainly entitled to your opinion but zero tolerence rarely works. Mistakes happen. Ten years for fighting when your 16, the whole country would be in the nick .
Indiscriminately throwing pretty hefty missiles at families is a little bit different. I hope the chap survives with no lasting effects and then is dealt with accordingly.

[harleyleeds]

Indiscriminately throwing pretty hefty missiles at families is a little bit different. I hope the chap survives with no lasting effects and then is dealt with accordingly.

Ah, didnt notice that earlier, attacking families is taboo. Compleatly different than some lads at each other. Still hope for his parents sake he recovers.

[micls]

Why don't the Cork fans pull these fellas actually on an aside if they think they're acting the muppet??


It has been done on many occasions by many people, these lads don't care and would tell you to f off. Unless you actually want to smack one of them, and risk an assault charge, it's pointless.



they didn't Friday and therefore must shoulder some of the blame.

Given I dont know the details, who was on the gate etc I wouldn't make that assumption. I still think the calling the Gardai from the crowd is a silly idea that would be laughed off, obviously you disagree.

Posted on our forum that the FAi are investigating the lack of security/gardai around.

[micls]

Indiscriminately throwing pretty hefty missiles at families is a little bit different. I hope the chap survives with no lasting effects and then is dealt with accordingly.

Was this kid seen doing that? I know there were kids in his group doing so but not sure if he was. Should be investigated but it could be a cause that he was with the wrong crowd, apparently he was there with his older brother.

Once the kid is well enough Im sure the Gardai will be having a chat, hopefully they can get to the bottom of what happened and punish those who deserve it.

[Lim till i die]

Given I dont know the details, who was on the gate etc I wouldn't make that assumption.

One of two things happened.

1. Ye had a committee member on the gate as a spotter and they still got in anyway so (s)he failed in their job and CCFC must shoulder some of the blame.

2. Ye had no spotter on the gate and CCFC must shoulder some of the blame.


I still think the calling the Gardai from the crowd is a silly idea that would be laughed off.

Probably but if a committee member was seen to do that it would at least have been something.

As it is they didn't so CCFC must shoulder some of the blame.

[Lim till i die]

apparently he was there with his older brother.

And who's his older brother??

[micls]

And who's his older brother??

No idea. I'd imagine if he was a witness though he's been spoken to as part of the investigation.

[Lim till i die]

No idea.

Really, you know he was there from reading your forum presumably but no hints as to who he is??

I know who he is (not by name before a face tells me go to the guards :) ) at least one of your committee reckons he's a bit tasty so to speak.

[micls]

One of two things happened.

1. Ye had a committee member on the gate as a spotter and they still got in anyway so (s)he failed in their job and CCFC must shoulder some of the blame.

2. Ye had no spotter on the gate and CCFC must shoulder some of the blame.



Probably but if a committee member was seen to do that it would at least have been something.

As it is they didn't so CCFC must shoulder some of the blame.

We're going around in circles so it's easier to agree to disagree.

You feel CCFC shoulder some blame for a city fan getting attacked after a game in Dublin near Tolka, I'm not convinced. Maybe there's more clubs can do, lets home it's investigated and implemented by the clubs if so.

Overall I think there are certainly clubs in the league with problems in the support, and I hope there is a coordinated effort to get it out of our league for good.

[micls]

Really, you know he was there from reading your forum presumably but no hints as to who he is??

I know who he is (not by name before a face tells me go to the guards :) ) at least one of your committee reckons he's a bit tasty so to speak.

Not on the thread I've read anyway. I'm living in Thailand so not up to date on the current 'crowd', so wouldn't personally know them. Definitely wouldn't know many of the names anyway.

[Lim till i die]

You feel CCFC shoulder some blame for a city fan getting attacked after a game in Dublin near Tolka, I'm not convinced.

The point I'm trying to make is that if it comes out that this nonsense is to do with the LoI CCFC must shoulder a large degree of the blame for that, whether they like it or not they can't wash their hands of these people unless they have done everything in their power to distance themselves from them, which on Friday they didn't.

You can't just pass the buck to the FAI, Shels, the Gardai, the Queens visit.

The attack itself I'm meh about, my point is, if CCFC prevent these lads from getting into Tolka Park Friday (which it was within their power to do) it's just a bunch of kids, fighting with another bunch of kids and there's no story (or far less of a story) here.

As it is we were a couple of kicks in the head away from an Evening Heral Daily Mail League Of Ireland Holocaust. Partially becasue CCFC don't have their house fully in order. And that's not fair on all the other clubs. It's only Limerick I care about here.


Maybe there's more clubs can do,

No maybe, there's more could be done, making full sure these youngfellas don't get into grounds until they get sick of travelling is an obvious one.


lets home it's investigated and implemented by the clubs if so

You're a member of FORAS are you not??

Less hope, more rope!!


Overall I think there are certainly clubs in the league with problems in the support

Well in the First Division you have Cork, Shels and erm.....


and I hope there is a coordinated effort to get it out of our league for good.

So do I.

[Lim till i die]

I'm living in Thailand so not up to date on the current 'crowd'

Fair Enough. :D

Reasonable excuse, I thought you were just being obtuse. :)

[micls]

You're a member of FORAS are you not??

Less hope, more rope!

Well in the First Division you have Cork, Shels and erm.....


1) I have faith in those at home to do their best for this, it's difficult to attend meetings from here!
2) I don't think it matters if it's premier or first, to most especially in the media it's all the one.