Statheads - how are we treating Cork?

[Dodge]

Are we treating the current Cork City as Cork City (2009)? Or are they being considered a continuation of the 1984 club? What happens the FORAS stats then?

Doesn't matter too much to me yet as Pats haven't played them yet but I'd go with Cork City (2009)

Any thoughts?*

[El-Pietro]

no idea why you'd call us 2009. the change happened in 2010

We're considering ourselves Cork City FC as a continuation of the team formed in 1984, as are the FAI. The rest of you can do as you please. Little difference between what happened in 2010 and the mid 90s except it was messier.

Same thing has happened to most LOI clubs. Rovers, Waterford who claim to have been formed in 1932 (and not 1980 despite a name change), the various incarnations of Limerick - who claim to have been formed in 1937

list goes on an on, whats different about us and Derry for example?

[WoodquayBoy]

I'm with El Pietro, for me it is Cork City from 1984, just as it is the Derry City from 1928. I know the FAI are treating them as the new entities judging by their preseason guide which removed all history, including leagues and cups wins, from the club details, but for me, they are the clubs that have been around since 84 and 28 respectively

[A face]

Everything changed and everything stayed exactly the same ;)

Its Cork City FC which was est. 1984 ... anything else is bull .... everyone knows that

[Dodge]

So what was FORAS?

[pineapple stu]

A group that ran the club. Don't see the big hang-up with differentiating between a club and the company/organisation that owns/runs the club.

[Candystripe]

Dodge, wait til the Harps fans see this thread!

Just for the record I see this Derry team the same as well.

[Mr A]

Just use the asterisk of shame on them, that'll cover it.

[Dodge]

Think it was more the change of name, crests and colours that made me think Cork was a different club

Never saw Derry as a separate club BTW

[TheBoss]

In my opinion, they are different clubs, the previous was wound up and therefore do not exist.


Cork City were finally wound up shortly after 2pm this afternoon. The club, which failed to gain a Premier League licence last night, had sought yet another extension on a winding-up order but were turned down at the High Court. source: http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soccer/2010/0223/1224265050795.html


FORAS bought the rights from the former and are entitled to use the trademarks etc.

[sullanefc]

Think it was more the change of name, crests and colours that made me think Cork was a different club

Never saw Derry as a separate club BTW


Cork City home Colours:
Green & White hoops - 84/89
White home jersey - 89/93 & 95/97
Pyjama kit - 93/95
Red kit - 95/02
Green kit 03/present

Cork City have also changed their crest on numerous occasions over the past 27 years. Are they all different clubs too Dodge? Which "clubs" stats did you use up to now?

Edit: Now that I think of it, Bohs played in an all black kit a few years ago. Were they a different club? And I'm pretty sure that Set Piece Athletic have had different hues of red down through the years.

Are you really saying that when a club changes its colours or crest then it as a different club?

[SkStu]

what a stupid thread.

1) who gives a toss?

2) who gives a toss?

[sullanefc]

what a stupid thread.

1) who gives a toss?

2) who gives a toss?

Dodge does. He has a CCFC fetish.

[SkStu]

Dodge does. He has a CCFC fetish.

i thought most Pats fans had habits...

[A face]

Think it was more the change of name, crests and colours that made me think Cork was a different club

The crest issue was always rumbling on since the 90's and became more of an issue in the 00's because Cork city council were pushing it more. It doesn't matter which group were running the club or what company had to be wound up while doing so, that issue would always have had to be addressed.

[A face]

i thought most Pats fans had habits...

Hee hee ;):D

[total hoofball]

Are we treating the current Cork City as Cork City (2009)? Or are they being considered a continuation of the 1984 club? What happens the FORAS stats then?

Doesn't matter too much to me yet as Pats haven't played them yet but I'd go with Cork City (2009)

Any thoughts?*

New club = new stats. Same for Derry City and Limerick. Everything else can be claimed in a spiritual sense as far as I'm concerned.

[sullanefc]

New club = new stats. Same for Derry City and Limerick. Everything else can be claimed in a spiritual sense as far as I'm concerned.

Same City, same fans, same name = same stats. ;)

[Dodge]

Really didn't realise it was such an issue with Cork fans. Nice little bonus peeing off a couple of you.

Seriously though, 'Twas a genuine question

(Oh and for the record, the very best Cork statisticians (Dave Galvin and Gerry Desmond) always considered Waterford adn Waterford United seperata clubs, wonder how they treat Cork).

[sullanefc]

Really didn't realise it was such an issue with Cork fans. Nice little bonus peeing off a couple of you.

Seriously though, 'Twas a genuine question

(Oh and for the record, the very best Cork statisticians (Dave Galvin and Gerry Desmond) always considered Waterford adn Waterford United seperata clubs, wonder how they treat Cork).

You didn't pee off anyone. Just surprised that you would post such nonsense. Then again, its one way to get to 20,000.

[Cosmo]

OF course they're a different club - a quick browse on the cork forum will show that even some of them admit its a new club!

I'll never see them as the same club - but sure probably doesnt matter to most of them anyway seen as they're used to supporting a different franchise from cork every few years!!

[Martinho II]

for me the clubs are the same... Whats different is for example Home Farm withdrew from the league ten years ago and Dublin City took their place as a new club as Home Farm went back to LSL.. If there was any break in clubs services in the league of ireland then I would classify them as a separate club.. In 1982 Cork Celtic resigned from the league.. Two years later Cork City took their place as a new club.. Derry City,Limerick and Waterford Utd are all the same clubs imo... there may be different trading companies but it doesnt differ a damn...If Cork City Foras hadnt bought the right to use Cork City as their name then it would be a differnt story..

[Dodge]

You didn't pee off anyone. Just surprised that you would post such nonsense. Then again, its one way to get to 20,000.

Of course it peed you off, otherwise you wouldn't think its nonsense.

It was a genuine question, but continue to feel defensive

[seand]

It's a tricky one really. Technically I think they are different clubs, as the original one was officially, legally terminated in the courts. However, seeing as the 'new' Cork City effectively took their place in the league, their fans, ground, colours, crest etc and equally importantly the fans seem to want it to be a continuation of the old club I think we have to give them the benefit of the doubt. Hard to know where the best parallel is... Limerick FC/United/City/FC/37/FC? Cork Athletic/United (very much considered seperate clubs)? Waterford/Waterford (1945)/Waterford United?

A similar example might be Accrington Stanley who went out of business in 1962 after dropping out of the league. A new club was reformed a year or two later and have come to be regarded as one and the same.

Now, when we're on the subject of history and revisionism, who won the league in 2001-02 Dodge? ;-)

[Dodge]

No revisionism from me. Never claimed anyone but Shels got the title. However unfairly ;)

[sullanefc]

Of course it peed you off, otherwise you wouldn't think its nonsense.

It was a genuine question, but continue to feel defensive
How does thinking your point of view is nonsense become defensive? And you still haven't explained how you think a change of colours and crest means it is a new club? Are you high?

[Lim till i die]

Dodge fishing with dynamite ITT :D

[micls]

It really depends on how you define a club/new club. It's not a static definition so different people will have different views. There's a few points to consider

1) The liquidation- The company was liquidated, does this make it a new club. If so then it shouldnt be a question of the establishment in 84 because the company was also liquidated in 96. If this is your definition then this should be the 4th Cork City FC in your view, similar applies to Derry etc.

2) The name- The name was changed for a year. If this is your definition of a new club then Limerick/Waterford should fit in the same box. Fair enough if so.

3) The crest- not a real reason for me as we've go through crests every couple of years and have rarely had a steady one.

4) A combination of the above. The fact that all of these happened together will mean for some people it's a new club.

For me it's not. Being personally involved from beforehand to throughout the change, nothing much changed, bar ousting the scum. Same people involved, a lot of same players, same fans, same colours etc. The name thing annoyed me but it had to be done.

But the main reason it's the same club for me is that for me the club is more than just the first team, and our underage teams continued with the original name and history, ran and funded by the club throughout it all. Therefore for me the club never died, the senior team just took a new name for a year before coming back under the umbrella.

Again, it's a personal thing though, and most people won't be swayed from their view. I know City fans who see ti as a new club, it's a gut instinct I guess. Doesn't bother me, each to their own.

[Dodge]

Good point on the underage set up micls. Although the Home Farm situation shows that their isn't always a direct relationship between schoolboy and LOI football

I guess my main reason for thinking it was a new club was the whole licensing thing. Didn't FORAS apply as a brand new club, with new agreements with Turners Cross (MFA) etc? I believe the intention was just to get in the league at all, and they just happened to have a better application than the other potential A leaguers, nd be placed in the first division.

They weren't relegated, or demoted, or anything like that. So in football terms, it was as if they started fresh.

Derry were placed bottom of the table, and as such were 'punished' by playing in the first division.

I'd agree there's loads of scope for interpretation

(and as much as I like winding up some Cork fans, some of them/you realise how I actually feel about football in Cork. Even doated stuff for a FORAS auction a couple of years ago)

[CityRebel]

Legally Cork City FC was transferred from one holding company to another so it is the same club, end of story.

[Dodge]

Legally Cork City FC was transferred from one holding company to another so it is the same club, end of story.

So how long did that take? And what happened in between?

HOwever much some cork fans might want it to be that simple, it clearly isn't. And this 'end of story' BS just makes you look defensive.

Luckily other Cork fans can discuss it

[CityRebel]

So how long did that take? And what happened in between?

HOwever much some cork fans might want it to be that simple, it clearly isn't. And this 'end of story' BS just makes you look defensive.

Luckily other Cork fans can discuss it

Come off the stage biy. It's not that complicated, stop being so defensive, I said "end of story" because what I said above is cutting a long story short.

The liquidation process takes months to fully complete, the liquidator takes control of the company (CCIFL in City's case). The supporters' trust FORAS then worked with the liquidator to take over Cork City Football Club. I think everything from the supporters' trusts point of view was wrapped up around May last year, all the equipment and everything useful like that had been acquired too. So, legally, it is the same club.

[Dodge]

Someone above said you bought the rigths to name etc. Not the same as taking them over, is it.

biy

[CityRebel]

Someone above said you bought the rigths to name etc. Not the same as taking them over, is it.

biy

It's the way of taking over without taking on the liabilities of a company. It has happened countless numbers of times in world football.

[El-Pietro]

Good point on the underage set up micls. Although the Home Farm situation shows that their isn't always a direct relationship between schoolboy and LOI football

I guess my main reason for thinking it was a new club was the whole licensing thing. Didn't FORAS apply as a brand new club, with new agreements with Turners Cross (MFA) etc? I believe the intention was just to get in the league at all, and they just happened to have a better application than the other potential A leaguers, nd be placed in the first division.

They weren't relegated, or demoted, or anything like that. So in football terms, it was as if they started fresh.

Derry were placed bottom of the table, and as such were 'punished' by playing in the first division.

I'd agree there's loads of scope for interpretation

(and as much as I like winding up some Cork fans, some of them/you realise how I actually feel about football in Cork. Even doated stuff for a FORAS auction a couple of years ago)

just to clarify the licensing bid.

FORAS applied for a license as a safety net, in case things should get worse - as they did. Theapplication was submitted on the basis that it would only be considered if CCIFL didn't get a license.

I'm not bothered what other fans think, I know what the club means to me. It was an absolute balls having to be named FORAS Co-op last year, but it was a legal necessity. We got the name back only a few months into last season and had hoped that people would refer to us as simply Cork City from then on.

To me, this is the same club, with new owners, that was formed in 1984. If you don't agree thats fine, I won't lose any sleep over it.

[El-Pietro]

Fiorentina are another example by the way

[Red Army]

If Cork are claiming to be the same club since 1984 then Sligo Rovers can claim to be the same club since 1910 or 1911 because there was a Sligo Rovers back then... but we don't because we are two different clubs same goes for the new and old cork city. If a club called Belfast Celtic were to set up this year could they claim to be the same club? I don't think so. Derry are another club claiming history of old clubs that died years ago. The first Derry City died when they left the Irish League in the 70s then a new club was set up to join the League of Ireland but that club died in 2009

[CityRebel]

If Cork are claiming to be the same club since 1984 then Sligo Rovers can claim to be the same club since 1910 or 1911 because there was a Sligo Rovers back then... but we don't because we are two different clubs same goes for the new and old cork city. If a club called Belfast Celtic were to set up this year could they claim to be the same club? I don't think so. Derry are another club claiming history of old clubs that died years ago. The first Derry City died when they left the Irish League in the 70s then a new club was set up to join the League of Ireland but that club died in 2009

The Cork City we have now, which was established in 1984, doesn't claim the history of Fordsons/Cork City from much earlier in that century. As I've said, what City have done has been done countless times by other clubs in Ireland and all over the world. I think it's a credit to the LoI clubs who've done it that fans of other clubs get so wound up over it, it's the only country I know of where fans of other clubs obsess over it.

[razor]

I'm not bothered what other fans think, I know what the club means to me.
To me, this is the same club, with new owners, that was formed in 1984. If you don't agree thats fine, I won't lose any sleep over it.Exactly, I've been supporting Cork City FC since the late 80's and I will continue to do so, it matters not to me what other people think, especially the Stattos.

[Dodge]

For the record, I don't mind either way. I just like the discussion. ANd where history is involved, stats follow so its important to get it right...

Just on this

FORAS applied for a license as a safety net, in case things should get worse - as they did. Theapplication was submitted on the basis that it would only be considered if CCIFL didn't get a license.

So you're saying that the intention was that FORAS was going to be seperate from Cork City (if Cork City applied for a licence and failed), but as Cork City folded before licensing they just assumed the Cork 'franchise' (as such)

[CityRebel]

So you're saying that the intention was that FORAS was going to be seperate from Cork City (if Cork City applied for a licence and failed), but as Cork City folded before licensing they just assumed the Cork 'franchise' (as such)

FORAS were never going to separate from Cork City, if CCIFL had received a licence then FORAS would have withdrawn the application. FORAS' application for a licence was a safety net to ensure Cork City would continue and there would be no break from LoI football in Cork in the event that CCIFL didn't get a licence.

[Dodge]

Except that licensing specifically states they can't be transferred. 3 different groups can't apply to be Shamrock Rovers or Sligo Rovers each year

The Cork FORAS application would've been completely independent of the Cork City application. How could it not have been?

[CityRebel]

Except that licensing specifically states they can't be transferred. 3 different groups can't apply to be Shamrock Rovers or Sligo Rovers each year

The Cork FORAS application would've been completely independent of the Cork City application. How could it not have been?

Licensing can't be transferred, everyone's aware of that, it's particularly important in relation to clubs going bust in the middle of a season.

3 different companies can't trade as Shamrock Rovers or Sligo Rovers either.

What's Cork FORAS?

FORAS and CCIFL were two independent applications, nobody told you any different.

[total hoofball]

Come off the stage biy. It's not that complicated, stop being so defensive, I said "end of story" because what I said above is cutting a long story short.

The liquidation process takes months to fully complete, the liquidator takes control of the company (CCIFL in City's case). The supporters' trust FORAS then worked with the liquidator to take over Cork City Football Club. I think everything from the supporters' trusts point of view was wrapped up around May last year, all the equipment and everything useful like that had been acquired too. So, legally, it is the same club.

http://www.corkcityfc.net/home/2010/06/01/its-in-the-right-hands/

You purchased intellectual property and nothing else.

If it is the same club then why was a new club called Cork City FORAS Co-op formed in 2010 while Cork City F.C. supposedly still 'existed'? When was Cork City FORAS Co-op F.C. wound up then? It never happened because 2011 version Cork City is the continuation of Cork City FORAS Co-op under a different name.

Purchasing a name and intellectual property does make it legally the same club. Sure Finn Harps could buy Kildare County's name and play as Kildare County next season and try to claim their history but it is not legally the same club.

I have no problem with Cork fans continuing the traditions of the previous club like AFC Wimbledon do but this pathetic denial that the club went bust and it is still the same club ticks me off big time.

[Dodge]

Licensing can't be transferred, everyone's aware of that, it's particularly important in relation to clubs going bust in the middle of a season.

3 different companies can't trade as Shamrock Rovers or Sligo Rovers either.

What's Cork FORAS?

FORAS and CCIFL were two independent applications, nobody told you any different.

So FORAS were a competitor to the existing Cork City

[CityRebel]

http://www.corkcityfc.net/home/2010/06/01/its-in-the-right-hands/

You purchased intellectual property and nothing else.

If it is the same club then why was a new club called Cork City FORAS Co-op formed in 2010 while Cork City F.C. supposedly still 'existed'? When was Cork City FORAS Co-op F.C. wound up then? It never happened because 2011 version Cork City is the continuation of Cork City FORAS Co-op under a different name. CCIFL is what went bust.

Purchasing a name and intellectual property does make it legally the same club. Sure Finn Harps could buy Kildare County's name and play as Kildare County next season and try to claim their history but it is not legally the same club.

I have no problem with Cork fans continuing the traditions of the previous club like AFC Wimbledon do but this pathetic denial that the club went bust ticks me off big time.

We purchased all the useful assets of the club and the right to continue/trade as Cork City FC, more than just IP. We had to use the name Cork City FORAS Co-op due to a mix of licensing and legal complications. We changed back as soon as we could. We would've changed back near the start of last season but you're not allowed to change names during the LoI season.

There are loads of clubs all over the world that have done this, Fiorentina have been named as an example on this thread.

[CityRebel]

So FORAS were a competitor to the existing Cork City
No, FORAS is the supporters' trust of Cork City. If CCIFL had received a licence then FORAS would have withdrawn the application. FORAS' application for a licence was a safety net to ensure Cork City would continue and there would be no break from LoI football in Cork in the event that CCIFL didn't get a licence.

[total hoofball]

We had to use the name Cork City FORAS Co-op due to a mix of licensing and legal complications.

What licensing and legal complications? :)

Complications like somebody forming a new club trying to call themselves Bohemian F.C. and trying to enter the LOI while there is already a club Bohemian F.C.?

Your denial is laughable

and yes Fiorentina, ACF Fiorentina to be exact were formed in 2002 following AC Fiorentina's demise months earlier

[CityRebel]

What licensing and legal complications? :)

Complications like somebody forming a new club trying to call themselves Bohemian F.C. and trying to enter the LOI while there is already a club Bohemian F.C.?

and yes Fiorentina, ACF Fiorentina to be exact were formed in 2002 following AC Fiorentina's demise months earlier

FORAS couldn't use the name Cork City Football Club initially because FORAS didn't have the right to trade under that name. FORAS weren't trying to form a new club, FORAS would also have withdrawn the application for a licence if CCIFL had received one. If CCIFL had gone bust earlier there's a chance that no name change would've been required. Legally we are the same club now, the former holding company went bust but the club was then taken on by FORAS. If clubs were "new" everytime they changed holding company it would be ridiculous.

You should email Fiorentina and tell them their website is wrong, they shouldn't have the history on it.

Your obsession with us is laughable. The only country in the world where people obsess over this, although it is only a small minority to be fair.

[El-Pietro]

football clubs are not the same as holding companies.