Statheads - how are we treating Cork?

[Macy]

It's probably the FORAS season that should be expunged from the "Cork City" records, since that is the season it was clearly a different club, and they didn't have the rights to the name.

[Dodge]

No, FORAS is the supporters' trust of Cork City. If CCIFL had received a licence then FORAS would have withdrawn the application. FORAS' application for a licence was a safety net to ensure Cork City would continue and there would be no break from LoI football in Cork in the event that CCIFL didn't get a licence.

But, one of the fuirst questions on the license is "Name of Club", as CCIFL were going to put "Cork City" on it, if they applied for a license, FORAS would've automatically been precluded from using the name

[TheBoss]

The examples used in this were Accrington Stanley and Fiorentina. Lets look closely at them, both previous clubs went bankrupt as we know, but lets look at on Accrington's website under history, it has 1968/69 as the first season and mentions ''The current Accrington Stanley Football Club is formed after a meeting in Bold Street Working Mens Club'' and not 1891 when the original club was formed, so they accept they are different clubs.

In Fiorentina's case, ''AC Fiorentina went into judicially controlled administration in June 2002. This form of bankruptcy (sports companies cannot exactly fail in this way in Italy, but they can suffer a similar procedure) meant that the club was refused a place in Serie B for the 2002–03 season, and as a result effectively ceased to exist.'' source: wikipedia
Then a new club ACF Florentia Viola was formed in August 2002 and was admitted to the league in 4th tier. A year later, this new club ''also bought back the right to use the Fiorentina name and the famous shirt design, and re-incorporated itself as ACF Fiorentina.'' In theory, they are different clubs, to the fans, they are same team, but logistically, they are not. Even a media channel for the club has it as 2002: http://it.violachannel.tv/organigramma.html

Napoli is exactly the same as Fiorentina, they went bankrupt in 2004 and a new club Napoli Soccer was set up and they bought the rights of SSC Napoli in 2006. They 2 are different clubs but have the legal right to claim the history of the previous club.

[dfx-]

Just use the asterisk of shame on them, that'll cover it.

I think that's taking it a bit far. We shouldn't be giving out asterisks like they're confetti. You have to earn them in this league...

[micls]

Derry were placed bottom of the table, and as such were 'punished' by playing in the first division
Bar the name change, the exact same thing happened to Derry as to us. The old company were expelled from the league and later liquidated, and the new company was 'helped' into the first division.


So you're saying that the intention was that FORAS was going to be seperate from Cork City (if Cork City applied for a licence and failed), but as Cork City folded before licensing they just assumed the Cork 'franchise' (as such)


Except that licensing specifically states they can't be transferred. 3 different groups can't apply to be Shamrock Rovers or Sligo Rovers each year

The Cork FORAS application would've been completely independent of the Cork City application. How could it not have been?

The licence was a seperate application but they were connected. The FAI was aware of the link between the 2 and ours being a back up licence. There was no name finalised on the licence application until well into the licencing procedure, when it was becoming fairly clear the other company werent getting a licence.

The proof of the link is in the FAI statement when they gave CCIFL a week's licencing extension. In the statement they said FORAS licence would also be delayed a week as the 2 were linked.

It was always a case of FORAS taking over from CCIFL and continuing with Cork City if the worst were to happen. I honestly believe if we didn't have a licence application in, CCIFL under the new ownership would have been fudged a licence, but that's another discussion. We were the FAI's safety net as much as our own.


http://www.corkcityfc.net/home/2010/06/01/its-in-the-right-hands/

You purchased intellectual property and nothing else.

If it is the same club then why was a new club called Cork City FORAS Co-op formed in 2010 while Cork City F.C. supposedly still 'existed'? When was Cork City FORAS Co-op F.C. wound up then? It never happened because 2011 version Cork City is the continuation of Cork City FORAS Co-op under a different name.


You seem to be confusing the club names with the companies. The only Cork City FC that existed when Cork City Foras Co-op existed were the underage teams, run, funded and managed by FORAS (the company). It never stopped existing, in fact it was the other way around, Cork City Foras Co-op stopped existing.

At the time Cork City Investments FC Limited was in the process of being wound up.

Cork City FORAS co-op was never wound up because it's not a company. You can't wind up a name. The company is FORAS. This company runs Cork City FC, it also ran Cork Cty FORAS Co-op, and Cork City FC (youths) last year. It is one in a line of companies that has owned Cork City FC since 1984. Fair enough if you consider each one to be a new club.

Also, we applied to the FAI to reclaim our history, after buying the intellectual property rights. They agreed.

[micls]

So FORAS were a competitor to the existing Cork City

More that FORAS was a back up to CCIFL.

It was always the case that if CCIFL didnt get a licence they would be wound up immediately. The level of debt that had built up was unsustainable even with a licence but without one the pending winding up orders would have been served.

The idea was always the same, if CCIFL is wound up, because of licencing, FORAS takes over. The ideal was we'd get the intellectual property immediately, and keep the name for the season, but TNB's ****ing about and legalities made it impossible in the end. I think had we been lucky enough to have a situation like Derry, old owners=new owners meaning no legal challenges to using the name and crest then we wouldn't be having the discussion but thems the breaks. On a personal level, legal definitions don't really come in to what makes a club (as opposed to company).

If were to separate them I would say CCFC 1984 continued throughout as a club, but the senior team took a year out (were expelled) and played under a new name. Now they have returned to the fold.

[Dodge]

Bar the name change, the exact same thing happened to Derry as to us. The old company were expelled from the league and later liquidated, and the new company was 'helped' into the first division. Fair enough, but Derry City were punished for off field issues, by the footballing authorities. As I said earlier there's loads to be interpreted


The licence was a seperate application but they were connected. The FAI was aware of the link between the 2 and ours being a back up licence. There was no name finalised on the licence application until well into the licencing procedure, when it was becoming fairly clear the other company werent getting a licence.
OK, but it was stated above that there may have been 2 applications, therefore the 'intent' was to have 2 seperate applications (and therefore 2 seperate clubs). Luckily for all concerned, with Cork City folding, there was no competition. The intent was to be a seperate application, but as I said above FORAS assumed the Cork franchise when CCIFL were wound up (and obviously didn't submit application). edit; answered a bit more in next post - thanks


You seem to be confusing the club names with the companies. The only Cork City FC that existed when Cork City Foras Co-op existed were the underage teams, run, funded and managed by FORAS (the company). It never stopped existing, in fact it was the other way around, Cork City Foras Co-op stopped existing.
A little bit, but again, the fact that you had to apply to the FAI ro reclaim the history, indicates to me that at least some involved considered it a new club.



Also, we applied to the FAI to reclaim our history, after buying the intellectual property rights. They agreed.
Without being funny I know EXACTLY how that FAI meeting went;

FAI; "Do we have to do anything?"
Cork; "Nope, in fact its just easier to let us reclaim the Cork City history"
FAI; "Fire away so!"


Thanks for the explanations though

[El-Pietro]

There would never have been a situation in which there were two Cork City clubs. Two clubs in the city under any names. had we been successful in buying CCIFL from he who shall not be named or if CCIFL had been successful in their application then the FORAS application would have been withdrawn, or even rejected by the FAI. It was a fail safe, and nothing else.

[pineapple stu]

The examples used in this were Accrington Stanley and Fiorentina. Lets look closely at them, both previous clubs went bankrupt as we know, but lets look at on Accrington's website under history, it has 1968/69 as the first season and mentions ''The current Accrington Stanley Football Club is formed after a meeting in Bold Street Working Mens Club'' and not 1891 when the original club was formed, so they accept they are different clubs.
Wasn't there no Accrington Stanley at all for a few years? Harder to claim continuation in that case (although Derry manage to pull it off I suppose)

[micls]

Fair enough, but Derry City were punished for off field issues, by the footballing authorities. As I said earlier there's loads to be interpreted


So were we?

Derry were expelled for dual contracts, they were later liquidated and a new company took their place.
We were denied a licence because of debt/tax clearance issues, were later liquidated and a new company took over.

I really don't see any difference in the 2 scenarios bar the name issue. Derry were on their way to liquidation whether the FAI kicked them out/revoked their licence or not. As were we.

[sullanefc]

Wasn't there no Accrington Stanley at all for a few years? Harder to claim continuation in that case (although Derry manage to pull it off I suppose)

Didn't Derry play as a junior club in the years where they were out of the Irish League and before the LOI?

A lot of moronic posts as well regarding the licensing process. Only one CCFC would have come out of it. What are people not getting?

I take it from the lack of responses to my earlier post that changes in colours and crests aren't an issue?

[SkStu]

4 pages from a trolling post. Impressive.

[sullanefc]

4 pages from a trolling post. Impressive.

The powers that be trying to generate traffic on a slow day.

[SkStu]

Its been a slow 6 months on this website in my opinion.

[John83]

Its been a slow 6 months on this website in my opinion.
Where's Tom Coughlan when you need him?

[BonnieShels]

Where's Tom Coughlan when you need him?

In Cobh; stroking a cat.

[Martinho II]

Where's Tom Coughlan when you need him?



getting blacklisted from revenue! wasnt he in the papers a few wks ago??

[A face]

getting blacklisted from revenue! wasnt he in the papers a few wks ago??

There has been a good bit written about him and they're not finished yet either. He really is up to his eyes in it. The walls must be seriously closing in on him at this stage.

[Dodge]

Its been a slow 6 months on this website in my opinion.

You've at kleast 3 posts in a thread you've no interest in. And YOU'RE complaining about the standard of posting?

[SkStu]

You've at kleast 3 posts in a thread you've no interest in. And YOU'RE complaining about the standard of posting?

Im actually not complaining about the standard of posting - not sure how you gleaned that from my posts. What i am complaining about is the fact that this thread even exists. Problem? The Cork issue is years old at this stage and to drag this non-issue up again and then state in an earlier post that you dont really care either way is just pointless and clearly designed as a wind up.

[A face]

Im actually not complaining about the standard of posting - not sure how you gleaned that from my posts. What i am complaining about is the fact that this thread even exists. Problem? The Cork issue is years old at this stage and to drag this non-issue up again and then state in an earlier post that you dont really care either way is just pointless and clearly designed as a wind up.

Yeah, its the same club, case closed, job done !! ;)

City for the league 2011 !!

[marinobohs]

There has been a good bit written about him and they're not finished yet either. He really is up to his eyes in it. The walls must be seriously closing in on him at this stage.

Can TC not wind up and restart as CobhTC and then we could have a thread as to whether he is the "original" TC or a completwely new TC. Given his financial position he will have no money for new clothes so change of strip wont be a problem.

"Theres only one Tom Coughlan" - discuss :rolleyes:

[Dodge]

Im actually not complaining about the standard of posting - not sure how you gleaned that from my posts. What i am complaining about is the fact that this thread even exists. Problem? The Cork issue is years old at this stage and to drag this non-issue up again and then state in an earlier post that you dont really care either way is just pointless and clearly designed as a wind up.
I think the original post showed why I was interested. Purely for stats. Now relevent seeing as we're playing them soon

As with most issues like this I didn't get involved in it years ago as it was clearly still developing. I thought I'd ask now hoping it had settled.

Fine if you know what the craic was, but I wasn't sure and thought I'd confirm with the good people here.

Obviously I don't care what the consensus turns out to be, as long as everything is explained/rationalised. Again, you mightn't care about this, but I do.

[razor]

I think the original post showed why I was interested. Purely for stats. Now relevent seeing as we're playing them soonIt was like a premonition


Obviously I don't care what the consensus turns out to be, as long as everything is explained/rationalised. Again, you mightn't care about this, but I do.I too had become a tad worried about the small amount of City fans passing through here.