Giles calls for artificial pitches in LOI

[Seagull]

http://extratime.ie/newsdesk/articles/5161/
Wonder how many clubs could afford the initial outlay?

[Guinney]

Initial outlay is huge but from what I can see its has been a successs for Dundalk. The pitch is in constant use, whether this for training, pitch rental (which generates income) or community sports days. Games will never be called off and the surface will remain good all year round. Also pitch maintenance would be much less than other grass pitches. I really think for football in Ireland it's very suitable, but understandably most other clubs will be turned off by the initial cost.

[bluewhitearmy]

We are getting one in the Markets Field.

[redobit]

THe astro pitch we have in The Showgrounds gets loads of use and when its paid off fully will be a great money spinner for the club. Personally Id hate to be going to see my team play on an astro pitch.

One huge advantage I think the astro pitch has made to Sligo Rovers is that it shows how much of a community club we are. The pitch is so visible from the road in front of the ground and its fantastic to see a hundred kids playing away during their training camps or when the lights are on in the evenings seeing it full of lads just having a game of 6-a-side. Really has helped to bring Sligo Rovers more into the community i think.

[Mr A]

While pitch maintenance may be lower, don't you have to relay them after 8 years or so?

[Ezeikial]

BBC Scotland quoted the cost of the 3G artificial pitch at Oriel Park as being €300k.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/scot_prem/8607191.stm

While Neil Aherne in the Indo estimated the cost at €550-€600
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/banishing-the-myths-of-turf-war-2112604.html

Thats a massive difference to the €1.5m thats quoted in the ET article

[Ezeikial]

THe astro pitch we have in The Showgrounds gets loads of use.....

I'm sure that you know that there is a huge difference between an astro pitch and the 3G FieldTurf. No astro pitch has a UEFA licence while the 3G pitch in Oriel has a Uefa 2 star certificate.

[Nesta99]

Think the 1.5m quoted is in relation to the 1.2m grant that Dundalk were granted prior to the laying of the Artificial surface. It is more likely to have cost in the region of 500k, remainder of the money was spent on other ground works round Oriel (where i am not sure, but probably meeting infrastructure licensing criteria like seats in the stand, floodlighting etc). Wasnt the sale of Hiney Park to do with raising the 20% needed to draw the grant along with servicing debt at the club. Well worth the investment even if it was a horrible horrible season playing in Gortakeegan never mind the delays with the pitch and the constant spoofing from then CEO.

[redobit]

I'm sure that you know that there is a huge difference between an astro pitch and the 3G FieldTurf. No astro pitch has a UEFA licence while the 3G pitch in Oriel has a Uefa 2 star certificate.

Ya, of course there is different levels of astro pitch or whatever you want to call them. For me I just cant see past the fake thing tho.

Just on the comment that Giles made. He made it with a view to improving the level of football within the league. However I thinks its fair to say the main/ only reason that any LOI club will ever put in a fake main pitch is to increase their revenue rather than to increase the level of football on view!

[Ezeikial]

Ya, of course there is different levels of astro pitch or whatever you want to call them. For me I just cant see past the fake thing tho.


Lada and Skoda cars sold well here in the 1980's because of similar limitations of vision by some car buyers. The only real similarity between Astro Turf and 3G Field Turf is that they are all weather football surfaces

If you are interested in understanding how FIFA view the development of 3G and now 4G Field Turf pitches have a look here:
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federation/news/newsid=1124226.html



Just on the comment that Giles made. He made it with a view to improving the level of football within the league. However I thinks its fair to say the main/ only reason that any LOI club will ever put in a fake main pitch is to increase their revenue rather than to increase the level of football on view!

Finances are one important aspect, but it simply stands to reason that a consistent flat surface that does not suffer the vagrancies of weather, does not get cut-up or soft, nor get rutted etc gives good footballers the opportunity to play football on the ground.

Alex Williams, then of St Pats and previously at Dundalk put it very well in the BBC Scotland interview:


That appears to be backed up by former Ayr United, Clyde, Morton and Stirling Albion forward Alex Williams, who this year moved from Dundalk to rivals St Patrick's Athletic.
"It's probably the best artificial surface I have ever played on," said the 27-year-old.
"You can pass the ball about well and, although some players do moan about it, I have no problem with it.
"If you can play football then this surface is ideal."

[Macy]

Finances are one important aspect, but it simply stands to reason that a consistent flat surface that does not suffer the vagrancies of weather, does not get cut-up or soft, nor get rutted etc gives good footballers the opportunity to play football on the ground.
Isn't the state of pitches one of the supposed benefits of feckin summer football?

I can see the benefits, especially where clubs are renting seperate training facilities, and where there is good demand that can be turned into rental income. But that cost benefit analysis will be different on a club by club basis.

[passerrby]

k500 is closer to the mark but maintanence costs is far more on an astro/3g .a pitch will mantain its 2 star status for about five years (only if it is not overused and fully mantained .so about k300 will be needed to relay new surface.
bottom line is if you use it as a commercial venture your pitch life will deteriiorate faster also opitch will need fifa inspection every year at a cost of about k3.
so if a club was to put one in at say a cost of k500 and assuming it had to repay that to the banks while putting away k80 a year for the replacement of the surface I dont think they club would every get ahead.

[Dodge]

Pats are seriously looking at this.

They've been told that to stage European games a certain type of field has to be installed and then it can only be used 8 hours per week.

So the decision is do you spend more on a pitch that can only be used 8 hours a week (and therefore not be a revenue maker) but can be used in Europe...

Or forget about European football and introduce a revenue making pitch that can be used for league games.

They were talking to the company who layed Dundalk's pitch and were told that Oriel wouldn't be allowed host European games without relaying the pitch.

I think the figure mentioned was about €250k

Info was givena pre-season Q&A session with club/supporters club

[Martinho II]

. Well worth the investment even if it was a horrible horrible season playing in Gortakeegan never mind the delays with the pitch and the constant spoofing from then CEO.

how long ago nesta did ye play at gortakeegan?

[pineapple stu]

They were talking to the company who layed Dundalk's pitch and were told that Oriel wouldn't be allowed host European games without relaying the pitch.
Didn't Oriel host two games last year though?

[Dodge]

Yeah, and its been 'overused' (their word) since. They said it would fail the UEFA tests this year.

[eelmonster]

If it fails UEFA tests later this year then, as far as I'm aware, we'll need to get a new surface in order to get a Premier licence next season. This would be the 3rd 3G surface laid at Oriel in 5 years, it cost in the region of €50,000 to lay the last one, I think the club and Field Turf split the financial burden.

[Nesta99]

The cost was split because Fieldturf had sold the pitch on the basis of it being FIFA approved , FIFA changed the standards needed. That meant that to meet the gaurantee the pitch needed relaying. As it wasnt Dundalks or Fieldturfs fault per se, the cost was split. What Dodge is saying is worrying to say the least, but I dont believe these limitations were stated prior to the pitches installation, again possibly creating some issue with gaurantees.

Think it 2004 we played out of Monaghan Martinho, but tbh those seasons between 2003 and 2006 are all blanked out.....

[passerrby]

I thnk dodges point is very important you can install an astro to generate revenue (which is not a sure return imo) or you can install an astro to host uefa games it cant do both.

[Ezeikial]

Yeah, and its been 'overused' (their word) since. They said it would fail the UEFA tests this year.

Who is 'they' here? Someone from Dundalk or from the pitch supplier?

The pitch passed it's UEFA test last June - can't see how anyone could accurately predict a problem with the next test.

Sounds like a nonsense to me

[Dodge]

Well I'm giving third hand info. Club told me (and other fans present) that thats what they were told from supplier. Could easily be a marketing ploy for them, but I thought it was worthy enouigh to pass on. If you know differently, then so be it

[passerrby]

i think suppliers say if it is open to public more than 10 hours a week approz it would be nearly impossible to maintain the uefa status regardless of maintanence program.

[bluemovie]

I wouldn't say it's a runner for any of the clubs that don't own their own ground - Tallaght, Turner's Cross, Terryland. We'd barely be allowed paint lines on the RSC pitch let alone dig it up and put down astroturf.

[DaveyCakes]

Aaaaaaaggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!! It's not astroturf!!!!!!

[Mr_Parker]

Pats are seriously looking at this.

They've been told that to stage European games a certain type of field has to be installed and then it can only be used 8 hours per week.

So the decision is do you spend more on a pitch that can only be used 8 hours a week (and therefore not be a revenue maker) but can be used in Europe...

Or forget about European football and introduce a revenue making pitch that can be used for league games.

They were talking to the company who layed Dundalk's pitch and were told that Oriel wouldn't be allowed host European games without relaying the pitch.

I think the figure mentioned was about €250k

Info was givena pre-season Q&A session with club/supporters club

The bit in bold is not correct Dodge.

We have one at Solitude. All in all it cost us close to £400k. It has been given a FIFA 2 Star rating which is what is require to be played on in Europe.

It must be remembered that there are various types of 3g pitch, not only in quality of the 'turf' itself but also in its construction. This can have a significant impact on cost and the life expectancy. Our 'turf' has a life of about 10 years, however use and maintence or lack of will impact on that.

A major part of our cost was in preparation of the sub-base which in effect was similar to the construction of a road and fininshed with a bitmac layer. The turf was laid on top, weighted with a sand layer and then topped with the crumb.

Our neighbours Crusaders chose a different method. Initially they did not put in a bitmac layer but chose to install a shockpad on top of the sub-base, then turn and weighted it with sand. The put in very little crumb. Subsequently after several issues it was lifted and I believe they then put down a bitmac layer and also added addtion crumb.

We hire out our pitch and it is in constant use each night and weekends. When it is re-tested next autumn it will give us a good indication of how long it will last.

It must be remembered that money does need to be set aside for replacement turf. However remember too that there are savings eg hire of training and match facilities. For us that equated to nearly £800 pw over all our teams, though if you are going to operate as a hired facility you have the cost of staffing etc.

[passerrby]

I suspect that if its a busy as you say then it will proberly pass after year one and two with good maintanance but will start to struggle from year three.

[Mr_Parker]

I suspect that if its a busy as you say then it will proberly pass after year one and two with good maintanance but will start to struggle from year three.

At worst, opinion is 6 years if it is not given regular maintenance, refills etc.

Also consider by comparison how often a grass pitch needs to be returfed etc.

[Nesta99]

'They' whomever they might be are unlikely to understate their product

[Mr_Parker]

'They' whomever they might be are unlikely to understate their product

It wasn't 'they' that stated such.

[Nesta99]

It wasn't 'they' that stated such.

Thats what I was getting at! 8 hours of use is seriously limited, therefore I dont see Fieldturf making an easy sell to clubs on a cost benefit basis. While not dismissing reservations stated above it seems unusual that a company would more or less talk themselves out of a sale.

[Mr_Parker]

Here is a list of some of the variations in quality just from one company alone.

http://www.lanosports.com/en/461

[passerrby]

most if not all companies will talk up a pitchs longevity however if you use your pitch as a revenue generateor it will struggle through an uefa inspection after three years
ask a company to give you a garentuee it will pass in say year four and watch them stutter

[Ezeikial]

Thats what I was getting at! 8 hours of use is seriously limited, therefore I dont see Fieldturf making an easy sell to clubs on a cost benefit basis. While not dismissing reservations stated above it seems unusual that a company would more or less talk themselves out of a sale.

Just too far fetched to be true.

"Hey guys, we want you to buy a 3G pitch from us. We layed the one in Dundalk in Feb 2009. It can only take 3 match sessions a week and won't pass the next UEFA test. Other then that it's great. Will you sign the order now please?"

[horton]

This is the LoI of course-anythings possible, Delaney might soon be forcing everyone to upgrade to them!

[Louth4sam]

Just too far fetched to be true.

"Hey guys, we want you to buy a 3G pitch from us. We layed the one in Dundalk in Feb 2009. It can only take 3 match sessions a week and won't pass the next UEFA test. Other then that it's great. Will you sign the order now please?"

Doesn't make sense to me. You play two games on it in a week and that means you are limited to two 1 hour training sessions? I think the information has been muddled up somewhere

[Ezeikial]

More info here on the Oriel Pitch, test procedures, FIFA's perspective and difference between FIFA 1 star V 2 star certificates -
http://www.dundalkfc.com/club/about-our-pitch/

[SwanVsDalton]

The turf was laid on top, weighted with a sand layer and then topped with the crumb.

Are you talking about a football pitch or a pie?

[thischarmingman]

Sand layer...mmmmmm

[SwanVsDalton]

Sand layer...mmmmmm

Feckin nouveau cuisine...

[Mr_Parker]

most if not all companies will talk up a pitchs longevity however if you use your pitch as a revenue generateor it will struggle through an uefa inspection after three years
ask a company to give you a garentuee it will pass in say year four and watch them stutter

As I said previously it is very much down to how the pitch is maintained and as they don't have control on that they will not give such guarantees as they have no control over that.

[Mr_Parker]

Are you talking about a football pitch or a pie?

:) ...

[sean r]

there is talk that synthetic or "astroturf" pitches increase injury to players. here in american sports there seem to be more knee and lower leg injuries on "turf" pitches. in my league the matches are played on turf. in the rain it does get slippery and you can slip and fall.

www.hss.edu/conditions_artificial-turf-sports-injury-prevention.asp

[Ezeikial]

there is talk that synthetic or "astroturf" pitches increase injury to players. here in american sports there seem to be more knee and lower leg injuries on "turf" pitches. in my league the matches are played on turf. in the rain it does get slippery and you can slip and fall.

www.hss.edu/conditions_artificial-turf-sports-injury-prevention.asp (http://www.hss.edu/conditions_artificial-turf-sports-injury-prevention.asp)

Sean R, thats an interesting article debating how various types of artificial pitches work out for injuries in American sports such as American Football.

Undoubtedly of more specific relevance is a FIFA study about soccer being played on FIFA 2 star rated artifical pitches.
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/pitchequip/turf_roots_1_11166.pdf


FIFA’s Medical Assessment and Research Centre (F-MARC) conducted a study of the injuries sustained at the FIFA U-17 tournament in Peru in 2005, which was played entirely on football turf, with the injuries sustained at previous FIFA U-17tournaments, which were played mainly
on grass. There was effectively no difference in the incidence, nature and causes of injuries observed during games played on artificial turf compared with those played on grass.
See page 9

There is also an interesting piece about the Oriel Park pitch and the impacts at Dundalk (pages 2 -5). Perhaps it gilds the lily in parts but the basics of it are correct.

There is a host of other interesting items including


“They did the maths,” explains Iñaki Alvaro, Event Director for the FIFA
World-17 Championship and also FIFA’s Head of Youth and Development Events. “A football turf field should last ten to twelve years“ and they worked out that it would only take three years to get a payback between the cost of installing new pitches, including maintenance, and the
upkeep of the grass fields.

EDIT - Here is a whole raft of other research which basically reaches the same conclusions that there are no additional incidents of injury
http://www.syntheticturfcouncil.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=91#Risk_of_Injury

[passerrby]

sorry zek but he is talking through his ass tro the most a pich could return is about k50 a year after maintance and runninng cost not to mention 21% vat and a sinking fund to replace te surface in a number of years if it was running at that level there is not a hope in hell it would last 10 years.
there is a stark difference in installing a pitch for revenue or to use for LOI the former may bring in a profit (I would doubt it) the latter will not.

[Ezeikial]

sorry zek but he is talking through his ass tro the most a pich could return is about k50 a year after maintance and runninng cost not to mention 21% vat and a sinking fund to replace te surface in a number of years if it was running at that level there is not a hope in hell it would last 10 years.
there is a stark difference in installing a pitch for revenue or to use for LOI the former may bring in a profit (I would doubt it) the latter will not.

The Oriel Park experience indicates that both are possible (revenue and LoI/European football) - although thie revenue/profit issue cannot be said with absolute certainty until the pitch requires replacement.

[passerrby]

wil not disagre with you zek but you must be turning close to k150 a year to be able to show a profit of K50 and that means close to 12 grand a month minumum

[sean r]

if it costs 250k or more to install how long before a club will see a substancial profit? they wont make 250k in a year with pitch rentals or other activities. they might same 50k year on not having to pay for a traning ground but how much before the club turns a profit? also what if a part of the pitch needs to be replaced. if it gets torn or warn out. that might cost a handy fee too.

[bullit]

Good reading in those links,thanks lads.
Dundalk have to be making good money on that pitch,an astute,no nonsense business man like Gerry Matthews would rip it up if it he didnt think it was a good investment for the club.

[peadar1987]

Can you play rugby on them? Ground sharing with a rugby team mightn't be the worst thing in the world. In particular, if Shels ever leave Tolka, I remember there being some talk of them moving to Donnybrook, but the major problem with that would have been the state of the pitch after schools rugby.

[pineapple stu]

The back pitch in Lansdowne Road is an astro rugby pitch. There's astro rugby pitches in UCD too. Don't know if they're the exact same type, but it's certainly doable.