Magners League of Football?

[Charlie Darwin]

The same Keith Fahey that's only played two complete matches for Birmingham all season and only scored one goal? The same Keith Fahey that looked miles off the pace in the Slovakia match? I dont know why you are all so keen on him. Kevin Doyle is world class and hands down Ireland's best player in my opinion, and Seamus Coleman certainly looks like the next big star, but Fahey is just plain terrible everytime I've seen him play.
The same Keith Fahey who demonstrates my point about the Airtricity League preparing players to step up to a higher level. His performances this season are irrelevant to the basic fact that he is currently contracted at a high level.


Just stating fact, if I hadn't you would all be calling for a link and accusing me of hating the LOI and making up lies. I think it's great that thirty odd thousand people showed up for the FAI cup final yesterday, that's very surprising and restores my faith that maybe, just maybe, the sport might have a future in my country at the professional level. Just out of interest, anyone know how much the tickets actually were? Are we talking thirty or forty euro or are we talking five euro? If we're talking the former then that's a very, very big thing.
What? I was at the game. It's not a secret that it cost a tenner in. Premium seats were 30 and there seemed to be a few of them taken up.

[peadar1987]

Just stating fact, if I hadn't you would all be calling for a link and accusing me of hating the LOI and making up lies. I think it's great that thirty odd thousand people showed up for the FAI cup final yesterday, that's very surprising and restores my faith that maybe, just maybe, the sport might have a future in my country at the professional level. Just out of interest, anyone know how much the tickets actually were? Are we talking thirty or forty euro or are we talking five euro? If we're talking the former then that's a very, very big thing.

A tenner for adults, fiver for children.

And on the standard of the LOI, I've watched my English team, Stoke ( :D ) play in the top three divisions of English football. The standard in the LOI is similar to the lower end of the Championship, top end of League 1. In England, teams at this level, from fairly modest towns, like Ipswich, Plymouth, Southampton and Norwich, can still attract 15-20,000 attendances.

[osarusan]

The standard in the LOI is similar to the lower end of the Championship, top end of League 1.
The LOI doesn't have one standard though. Salthill are as much a part of the LOI as Rovers or Bohs are, and where on the English league ladder would they be competitive?

I think that crowds of 15-20,000 are nothing more than pipe dreams for the LOI, and for any of the other leagues dreamed up (AIL, clubs in SPL etc) except if a Dublin club was to play in the EPL, which is something that I pray, to all the gods I don't believe in, will never ever happen.

[Metrostars]

And play against who? Myself? I live in a city of over one million people. The only city near me is 300km away. The next nearest city is 1300km away. Do you not have any grasp of North American geography? Pitiful. "Soccer", as they call it here, has proven itself time and time again not to be a viable commercial product in Canada and the United States. The MLS semi-finals were on this past weekend and I tried to watch them. Before you start knocking me for watching the EPL, I'd like to see you stick out four hours of that rubbish.

MLS is growing steadily in the US and with Montreal and Vancouver coming in soon is taking a good foothold in the major markets in Canada. Is it profitable? No not yet. New stadiums being built in a number of cities over the last couple of years shows that it is growing. Also, more money and proper coaching is being put into MLS youth academies A good sign is that the first MLS youth academy player is likely to get his first cap with the US on Wednesday(Juan Agudelo).

Of course the play is not at EPL/LaLiga/Serie A/Bundesliga standard. Not many leagues 16 years old are. As I used to tell my barstool friends when I used to go up to Terryland on a cold winters day to watch Galway United, "it might be shyte but it's our shyte".

[peadar1987]

The LOI doesn't have one standard though. Salthill are as much a part of the LOI as Rovers or Bohs are, and where on the English league ladder would they be competitive?

I think that crowds of 15-20,000 are nothing more than pipe dreams for the LOI, and for any of the other leagues dreamed up (AIL, clubs in SPL etc) except if a Dublin club was to play in the EPL, which is something that I pray, to all the gods I don't believe in, will never ever happen.


Sorry, that should have read "top end of the LOI". I was too busy checking the population of Ipswich to notice that!

I think one-off crowds of 10-15,000 for the bigger games, like a Shams-Bohs match, aren't completely out of the question at some point. And the average attendance can certainly be significantly higher. A club like Cork, for example, would be attracting over 10,000 on a semi-regular basis if they were in Scotland.

[Adrock]

A tenner for adults, fiver for children.

And on the standard of the LOI, I've watched my English team, Stoke ( :D ) play in the top three divisions of English football. The standard in the LOI is similar to the lower end of the Championship, top end of League 1. In England, teams at this level, from fairly modest towns, like Ipswich, Plymouth, Southampton and Norwich, can still attract 15-20,000 attendances.

I think that is wildly overoptimistic to be honest,; to be of that standard they would have to be paying championship wages.
Even the better clubs would likely struggle in League 2 and the rest more likely a couple of divisions below that. How many LOI players can you seriously see getting in the Ipswich team even with Roy as manager?

[SwanVsDalton]

How many LOI players can you seriously see getting in the Ipswich team even with Roy as manager?

Never mind LOI players, I could play in the current Ipswich team.

[geysir]

I'd say presently, 6 LOI clubs could compete well at mid-championship level, if they had those championship facilities and the finances for a full time set up.

[bennocelt]

And play against who? Myself? I live in a city of over one million people. The only city near me is 300km away. The next nearest city is 1300km away. Do you not have any grasp of North American geography? Pitiful. "Soccer", as they call it here, has proven itself time and time again not to be a viable commercial product in Canada and the United States. The MLS semi-finals were on this past weekend and I tried to watch them. Before you start knocking me for watching the EPL, I'd like to see you stick out four hours of that rubbish.

Well you could play with yourself that might be a good idea:p
Set up a team, Dublin has about the same population as what u mentioned - no excuses

The LOI is decent enough
I love football so 4 hours of local football would be fine for me, why not - do you not love the game!!!!! or is it better to watch a game from your TV - which even my granny could do - wow what a great fan

[backstothewall]

You'd swear you actually knew what you're talking about. You've already admitted you know next to nothing about the league, yet you're willing to tar Sligo with the same brush as all of the failed overspending clubs from years past.

Your sole piece of evidence appears to be Joseph Ndo, a 34-year-old player past his prime who long ago decided he was willing to play at a lower level because it suited his lifestyle. You seem to believe he is earning mega wages despite the fact the two big clubs in the country have passed on him and he's joined a smaller club (in monetary terms) and helped them win two trophies.

For the last ime, I am not having a go at Sligo. I am having a go at the culture that exists throughout the league.

I merely cited Ndo as an example (there are others), and the reason I speculate he is on big money is that he is the best player in the league (according to the TV analyst yesterday anyway) that he is an international, and that he has been to 2 world cups. Whatever about him, the point remains that neither him nor any other hasbeen international will have any resale value, and will take a place in a side that could have been taken by a local lad who might be the next Coleman/Fahey/Doyle. On top of that the difference in wages, and any sell on fee, could be put towards better facilites for the punters, the benefits of which are clearly outlined in the article about Chesterfield I posted.

It seems there are a few serious chips on shoulders over in north Connacht.

[Adrock]

Never mind LOI players, I could play in the current Ipswich team.
Are you from Cork though? otherwise you have to have ability

[SwanVsDalton]

Are you from Cork though? otherwise you have to have ability

Several current Ipswich players beg to differ.

[Adrock]

I'd say presently, 6 LOI clubs could compete well at mid-championship level, if they had those championship facilities and the finances for a full time set up.

Thats not exactly presently then is it given the max capacity of an LOI club is about 7000

[geysir]

Presently, qualified by a conditional, as denoted by the use of "if".

[Adrock]

Several current Ipswich players beg to differ.

Roy says all his players including reserves should be in the Ireland squad so they I figure they must be class acts

[Adrock]

So presently as in hypothetically , in a unlikely set of circumstances in the distant future sense, rather than in the traditional 'at this point in time' defintion of the word?

[Charlie Darwin]

For the last ime, I am not having a go at Sligo. I am having a go at the culture that exists throughout the league.

I merely cited Ndo as an example (there are others), and the reason I speculate he is on big money is that he is the best player in the league (according to the TV analyst yesterday anyway) that he is an international, and that he has been to 2 world cups. Whatever about him, the point remains that neither him nor any other hasbeen international will have any resale value, and will take a place in a side that could have been taken by a local lad who might be the next Coleman/Fahey/Doyle. On top of that the difference in wages, and any sell on fee, could be put towards better facilites for the punters, the benefits of which are clearly outlined in the article about Chesterfield I posted.

It seems there are a few serious chips on shoulders over in north Connacht.


I just don't understand why, when there's an example of a Dublin club that has overspent on wages this year, you've chosen as your example a Sligo club that is demonstrably living within its means. If you're trying to make a general point using a specific example, you need to chose your example carefully.

And I'm neither a Sligo fan nor from anywhere close to north Connacht.

[geysir]

So presently as in hypothetically , in a unlikely set of circumstances in the distant future sense, rather than in the traditional 'at this point in time' defintion of the word?
At present there are number of LOI clubs, given a similar set of circumstances to a championship club, re full time training, re training facilities, re playing pitch, would be able to compete at mid championship level.
You might not agree but is it such a difficult opinion to comprehend?

[jinxy lilywhite]

this thread is effin hilarious,
so many non loi fans with the quick fix solution, ( i can see the boards of the clubs reading this and saying "its been staring us in the effin face, why don;t we pump loads of cash we don't have and chase an unattainable dream")
do folks not think that this model of champions league footy has been the near death of shels, cork, drogs now bohs and derry to a lesser extent. While clubs like rovers and dundalk over the last 3-4 yrs are only really recovering from years of mismanagement.
There is no quick fix solution to this. LOI has been vastly ignored for roughly about 20 years that it could possibly take 20yrs to recover. I think we need to get real and people and try to progress the league slowly in all clubs. First things first we need to stop giving people ammunition in which to shoot us down with and we need to look at the clubs where it does work. The UCD's, Sligo's, St. Pats and see what they have done right so all the clubs can see about implementing it.

[peadar1987]

For the last ime, I am not having a go at Sligo. I am having a go at the culture that exists throughout the league.

I merely cited Ndo as an example (there are others), and the reason I speculate he is on big money is that he is the best player in the league (according to the TV analyst yesterday anyway) that he is an international, and that he has been to 2 world cups. Whatever about him, the point remains that neither him nor any other hasbeen international will have any resale value, and will take a place in a side that could have been taken by a local lad who might be the next Coleman/Fahey/Doyle. On top of that the difference in wages, and any sell on fee, could be put towards better facilites for the punters, the benefits of which are clearly outlined in the article about Chesterfield I posted.

It seems there are a few serious chips on shoulders over in north Connacht.



Well, Sligo don't just exist to develop players to sell on, or blood young players for the national side. They also exist as a football club in their own right, and as such will do what they need to, hopefully within the rules, to win trophies. On yesterday afternoon's evidence, they're not doing too badly!

[backstothewall]

I just don't understand why, when there's an example of a Dublin club that has overspent on wages this year, you've chosen as your example a Sligo club that is demonstrably living within its means. If you're trying to make a general point using a specific example, you need to chose your example carefully.

And I'm neither a Sligo fan nor from anywhere close to north Connacht.

I just picked an example at random. It could as easily have been any club as its a league wide phenomenon. I went for Sligo as they are a small town club with a few players on the books who have obviously come from other parts of the world to play there. The likes of Ndo and Boco certainly aren't in Sligo for the love of the club, but the same could be said of any of the former English/Scottish league players plying their trade up and down the country (ok, I'm sure there's one who met a nice Irish girl, moved here, signed for the local side and fell in love with the place, but I'm speaking in generalities here)


Well, Sligo don't just exist to develop players to sell on, or blood young players for the national side. They also exist as a football club in their own right, and as such will do what they need to, hopefully within the rules, to win trophies. On yesterday afternoon's evidence, they're not doing too badly!


They won, and they won well. But surely that is a luxury when your fans are in an 80 year old stadium with the wind howling through it. Not because of the fans who are there at every home game, who will give it 100%, but because of the thousands of people who went to Dublin on Sunday who will never show their face at the Showgrounds, or any other League of Ireland ground (except the shiny modern Tallaght Stadium). Its really easy to slag them off for following cross channel clubs, but they are the very people local football has to attract through the turnstiles.

Sunday demonstrated the potential for big crowds to watch football in this country, if it is done right. I'm not saying 30,000 people will show up every week, or even any more often than once a year, but if somewhere between half and a third of that crowd were at most grounds most weeks, every club in the league would be able to put far superior players on the pitch, and you end up in a virtuous circle. Even a quarter of the people at Lansdowne on Sunday would fill the biggest League of Ireland stadiums to bursting points

Which is why I'm saying that until we are in that situation, the priority should be on raising revenue to put decent facilities in place. One of the best ways for football clubs to raise money is developing young players and selling the best of them on, but that means giving them a chance in the first team at the right time, and not signing someone else who will do a better job in the short term.

[Charlie Darwin]

I just picked an example at random. It could as easily have been any club as its a league wide phenomenon. I went for Sligo as they are a small town club with a few players on the books who have obviously come from other parts of the world to play there.
Surely it would have been better to pick an example based on evidence? I find this concept of making an argument without any facts to be bizarre.


The likes of Ndo and Boco certainly aren't in Sligo for the love of the club, but the same could be said of any of the former English/Scottish league players plying their trade up and down the country
I know. They're in Sligo because the club feels it can make a profit above what it pays them. You have to pay players, so why not pay for the best you can afford?

[pineapple stu]

I'd say presently, 6 LOI clubs could compete well at mid-championship level, if they had those championship facilities and the finances for a full time set up.
So basically if an LoI team was a Championship team, it'd be as good as a Championship team? Come on...

If the top LoI teams were good enough to be in the Championship, why are the players happy here on a tenth of what they could be earning? Only logical answer - they're not good enough to play in the Championship. Corollary - the LoI is nowhere near Championship level.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Aye, have no axe to grind.
The LoI is on about a par with the Conference premier (Div.5) in England or bottom-half Div.1/top-half Div.2 in Scotland.
With a few players, say 5-6, who are capable of playing in the Eng.Championship/SPL bottom-half at their current levels. Though obviously could go on to greater things?

Would be good to see a stronger domestic league but we have a limited playing base, not least down to the alternatives of GAA (& Rugby!), so unless you change those major cultural forces, domestic soccer will always be a very poor third.

Thus am happy for our best youngsters to be developed, if necessary, by bigger clubs in foreign leagues. Though it's not obligatory!

[Jicked]

Aye, have no axe to grind.
The LoI is on about a par with the Conference premier (Div.5) in England or bottom-half Div.1/top-half Div.2 in Scotland.

Complete and utter rubbish. Out of interest, how many Scottish Division two games do you watch, and how do you think Crawley Town would fair against Juventus? Or Fleetwood Town against Dynamo Kiev or Hertha Berlin?

As for soccer "always being a distant third"....that's only been for the last 10 years of success in rugby, yet you think this will continue forever now?

[geysir]

If the top LoI teams were good enough to be in the Championship, why are the players happy here on a tenth of what they could be earning? Only logical answer - they're not good enough to play in the Championship. Corollary - the LoI is nowhere near Championship level.

I said a number of teams could compete at mid-championship level, not that the LOI is near championship level. But given a level playing field, a number of clubs could compete at mid championship level. The bottom half of the championship is a pretty basic standard, no great shakes.
I wrote this in response to someone saying that a few LOI clubs could compete amongst the lower championship teams.

[pineapple stu]

And I spoke of the top LoI teams in my reply, not of the LoI in general. I think it's something people like to believe yet is way off the mark, particularly with (to refer in to Jicked's post as well) the full-time era almost gone.

And the level playing field thing is irrelevant - it's like saying the city of Cork could support a Div 1 team. It probably could, but what does that show? It's irrelevant to the question of how the LoI compares.

[geysir]

And I spoke of the top LoI teams in my reply, not of the LoI in general. I think it's something people like to believe yet is way off the mark, particularly with (to refer in to Jicked's post as well) the full-time era almost gone.
And you also wrote "the LoI is nowhere near Championship level"


And the level playing field thing is irrelevant - it's like saying the city of Cork could support a Div 1 team. It probably could, but what does that show? It's irrelevant to the question of how the LoI compares.
The level playing field is relevant to my opinion, when somebody says a number of LOI club could compete at lower championship level. I don't think they could - even that basic standard is much higher than those LOI clubs could survive amongst. A couple of the reasons why it is higher, is that championship players benefit from full time and better facilities.

[pineapple stu]

Well then you're not anywhere near comparing like with like.

[geysir]

I was not trying to compare like with like. I am stating that there is not a like for like comparison, between the current standard of a few LOI clubs and the lower half of the championship.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Complete and utter rubbish. Out of interest, how many Scottish Division two games do you watch, and how do you think Crawley Town would fair against Juventus? Or Fleetwood Town against Dynamo Kiev or Hertha Berlin?

As for soccer "always being a distant third"....that's only been for the last 10 years of success in rugby, yet you think this will continue forever now?
More than you. ;) Those conference teams wouldn't do much worse than the EL teams in 'one-off' games.
And rugby has been bigger than domestic soccer for the last 20 years or so. So what? Notice you swerved the GAA point....

[Adrock]

And you also wrote "the LoI is nowhere near Championship level"


The level playing field is relevant to my opinion, when somebody says a number of LOI club could compete at lower championship level. I don't think they could - even that basic standard is much higher than those LOI clubs could survive amongst. A couple of the reasons why it is higher, is that championship players benefit from full time and better facilities.
Yes but their facilities are a lot worse because Championship sides are basically much bigger and better clubs, with a lot more fans, much better players they can afford to pay much higher wages, sponsorship, tv interest etc........its the whole package you have to look at. You could say any clubs in any third world league in the world would be a lot better if they had these advantages, but they don't because the standard of the league and the level of support for it doesnt allow for it.

In any case you could give any of the current LOI squads all those facilities and training and they are still not going to have the quality to match championship teams or those players would alrady be playing in the championship were they good enough.

[SwanVsDalton]

Roy says all his players including reserves should be in the Ireland squad so they I figure they must be class acts

Roy says a lot of things. Maybe if he got these 'class acts' playing somewhat better than guff I'd take what he says more seriously.

[jinxy lilywhite]

hogwash
I hate to say it but Bohs and Shamrock Rovers with their current squads could easily compete at an english champioship level.
with the exception of the bottom 3 the remainder of the loi could imo compete at an SPL level or at a league 1 level
having seen a lot of games in the bristol area over the past 18 mths the standard of loi is not that much lower than league 1. The lack of crowds, facilities any long term vision from the loi clubs is the only major difference

[Charlie Darwin]

English league clubs play 46 games a year plus cups. I don't think Rovers or Bohs could manage that without bigger squads.

[jinxy lilywhite]

they would not need that much more bigger squads. about 4 or 5 extra.
Also both teams had sizeable squads.
I am going on an observation from watching Bristol Rovers and City (very average sides) and their opponents.
BTW those rovers are the only rovers I like

[Adrock]

hogwash
I hate to say it but Bohs and Shamrock Rovers with their current squads could easily compete at an english champioship level.
with the exception of the bottom 3 the remainder of the loi could imo compete at an SPL level or at a league 1 level
having seen a lot of games in the bristol area over the past 18 mths the standard of loi is not that much lower than league 1. The lack of crowds, facilities any long term vision from the loi clubs is the only major difference
How exactly could a club like Bohs charging say €15 and getting maybe an attendence of a couple of thousand compete against a club like Bristol City who get a gate around 15,000 and charge twice the amount? Plus tv income sposnsorship etc
The standard of football is subjective but the sums don't add up. If the players were good enough to play at that standard why not go where the money is? Do you think there is any other motivation for them to be playing in the LOI other than that they are not good enough for league football in England?

[Jicked]

For those arguing that mathematics to prove that the Championship is in a different stratosphere of class to the LoI (some posters still even calling it the "eircom League" shows how many games they must watch)....do you think the Championship is in the five or six best leagues in Europe? Attendance wise, and financially, it must be pretty close right? The same people would probably argue that Celtic

And ArdeeBhoy, I'd love for you to explain how strong the AIL was in 1990?

EDIT: A very quick google shows that in 2009 the Championship attracted more fans than Serie A over the course of the season.

[Adrock]

For those arguing that mathematics to prove that the Championship is in a different stratosphere of class to the LoI (some posters still even calling it the "eircom League" shows how many games they must watch)....do you think the Championship is in the five or six best leagues in Europe? Attendance wise, and financially, it must be pretty close right? The same people would probably argue that Celtic

And ArdeeBhoy, I'd love for you to explain how strong the AIL was in 1990?

EDIT: A very quick google shows that in 2009 the Championship attracted more fans than Serie A over the course of the season.
Well they play plenty more games in the championship thats why - average attendance combined with admission price is the best guide really, for instance the Bundesliga is easily the most watched league because the admission charge is relatively low.I expect the championship is one of the top dozen leagues (EPL , La Liga, SerieA, France, Russia, Holland, Belgium, Ukraine, Portugal, Turkey, Greece probably better) What is for sure though is that a league with an average attendence of a thousand or two, charging around €10 a ticket is not going to have the resources to put out quality teams unless they have a very generous Sugardaddy owner and who would bother splashing their millions on a cruddy LOI club?

[Stuttgart88]

I think The Championship is the 4th most watched league in the world. The LOI has no chance of competing commercially and it's a relatively proven fact in football that quality is very closely correlated to wages. It's an open labour market but a closed product market - i.e., there is one big pool of labour in the EU and little in the way of intervention (salary caps etc.), but several discreet leagues for them to go to work in. By and large, the best labour will go to where it gets best rewarded. There'll obviously be exceptions but it's a fairly reliable rule of thumb.

[osarusan]

I don't see how it's possible to accurately compare the two leagues (or any two leagues) in terms of where the top LOI teams would fall in the English tiers. It's just speculation on who would beat who if the two teams ever met regularly and competitively.

Also, I don't see what real relevance it has to ideas to reform the LOI in some way.

[Saint_Charlie]

unless they have a very generous Sugardaddy owner and who would bother splashing their millions on a cruddy LOI club?

Garrett Kelleher?

[ArdeeBhoy]

For those arguing that mathematics to prove that the Championship is in a different stratosphere of class to the LoI (some posters still even calling it the "eircom League" shows how many games they must watch)....do you think the Championship is in the five or six best leagues in Europe? Attendance wise, and financially, it must be pretty close right? The same people would probably argue that Celtic

And ArdeeBhoy, I'd love for you to explain how strong the AIL was in 1990?
Any chance of some sort of translation??

PS.LOfI/EL, whatever! And we're comparing different sports now.
If it was the LofI in its heyday, we'd hardly be having this debate, FFS....