Magners League of Football?

[Charlie Darwin]

I enjoyed it :D

[geysir]

The country now expects, from the other Rovers.
The last hope.

[peadar1987]

I think regionalising the early stages of European competition would be good, so long as the regions were chosen to ensure a fairly equal strength of each region. No point having France, Portugal and Spain in one group, and Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Belarus in another! It would increase interest and crowds, and reduce costs for the smaller teams, as well as hopefully helping to ensure a wider geographical spread of teams. It's not a silver bullet, but then what is?

And as for the other points raised in this thread, there are a thousand reasons the league needs drastic change, but to force the barstool X Factor glamour fans into moving on to the next stock excuse for staying in the pub definitely isn't one of them.

[geysir]

If you think that in order for the league to be more successful, it means converting a punter from the barstool to becoming a regular attendee at LOI games, then the League is well and truly banjaxed.

Just a few hundred more supporters attending each week would make a big difference to each club. Though I don't have any ideas on how that is possible, but forget about those who occupy the barstools.

[peadar1987]

If you think that in order for the league to be more successful, it means converting a punter from the barstool to becoming a regular attendee at LOI games, then the League is well and truly banjaxed.

Just a few hundred more supporters attending each week would make a big difference to each club. Though I don't have any ideas on how that is possible, but forget about those who occupy the barstools.



Was that addressed to me?

I think much of the current barstool generation is a lost cause so far as the League of Ireland is concerned. They're into glitz, glamour and footballers with haircuts that cost more than Dalymount Park. The money would be better spent promoting the league in schools and junior football clubs, so the next generation of potential supporters don't go the same way as this one.

[Adrock]

This is somewhat true. When I was in Austria last year, I switched on some Bundesliga coverage and it took me a few minutes to realise that it was the Austrian one, not the German (although I did also keep forgetting I was in Austria and thinking it was Germany). At the same time, when we went out, all the bars were showing Liverpool on Sky so it's not all that different.


That's a complete cop-out. If you like football and can afford to go to matches, you will. It doesn't matter where you live. If Shay Given HAS to be playing in order for you to show up, you're not a football fan at all - you're a celeb-spotter.

And a couple of hundred euro in admission fees can make a big difference for amateur and semi-pro sides.

The point is I'd pay to go and watch a match thats going to be of a standard worth watching (Shay Given would be a bonus) I'm not going to go and freeze my nads off at Ballybofey every other week watching fairly dismal football in the hope that 80 thousand other people like me around the country are going to spontaneously do the same thing, in the faint hope that one day some time in the future the football will evolve to a standard to make it worth the trouble of going to see.

We need a league with large scale investment from business, television and governing bodies where possible put in place to create a level of football that people want to watch. The security for this investment would of course be us football fans who would pay to watch a decent spectacle were it to become available locally. Every other Euro country their league evolved naturally to a competitive level in accordance with the nation's size/economy etc. For whatever historical reason ours never has so we need a major reboot to ween people off teams across the sea.

'If you build it they will come' ............and if they dont, so what? we dont deserve a decent league then do we and we are either not a proper footballing nation as I like to think we are or else still pitifully culturally dependent on our one time colonial masters. Might as well scrap the national team too if they're all going to have to keep on emigrating to England as soon as they hit puberty to pursue their fortune ( if they're not actually english in the first place) close down the FAI and send them back to the circus. :bye:

[pineapple stu]

Dismissing the LoI as "fairly dismal" if your first error. Some games are crap, of course; many are very enjoyable. Some Premiership games are crap too.


Every other Euro country their league evolved naturally to a competitive level in accordance with the nation's size/economy etc.
Nonsense. The Finnish league in the 60s and 70s was worse than ours; now it gets better attendances than ours and enjoys copious local TV coverage. Ditto the Norwegian league. Did they just sit and wait for something to happen, and strike lucky? Of course not. (I don't know what they did, but that's not really the scope of this post).

But ultimately, all this macro stuff - merge leagues, change the season, change the number of teams, etc - masks the real problem. The real problem is at a micro level. That means the real problem is you. And every person individually. The league isn't going to improve all of itself. It's up to every individual person to try and get involved to improve their club. Unfortunately, in this country, it seems that that's too much effort, and we prefer a bit of an aul whine which ends up with the conclusion that everything is someone else's fault.

[geysir]

Was that addressed to me?
Not at all, well not in particular.
You have made interesting points.

[bennocelt]

The point is I'd pay to go and watch a match thats going to be of a standard worth watching (Shay Given would be a bonus) I'm not going to go and freeze my nads off at Ballybofey every other week watching fairly dismal football in the hope that 80 thousand other people like me around the country are going to spontaneously do the same thing, in the faint hope that one day some time in the future the football will evolve to a standard to make it worth the trouble of going to see.

:

First mistake of the barstooler. This strange idea that because its the LOI it is somewhat rubbish. The standard of the LOI is good and improving.
May i suggest you take a break from the sofa and go and see Sligo play in the cup final - if its not too much bother for you

[SwanVsDalton]

If down the road there was a Derry club playing in a proper league, perhaps with local legend Shay Given in goal I'd sure get my season ticket , but a thousand years of minor reforms to the LOI arent going to create that kind of situation

If you couldn't be bothered coming out in recent years to see David Kelly, Paddy McCourt, Niall McGinn and Liam Coyle, not to mention the visiting likes of Keith Fahey, Seamus Coleman and Kevin Doyle then why would you come see Shay Given?

[SwanVsDalton]

Without going in to how it could possibly work, I quite like Stutts' format. It appears to give Irish sides several interesting games in Europe, with the opportunity of taking a real scalp. We wouldn't really progress, per se, but it could bring about a lot of interest. Just playing teams people have actually heard of (Hearts, Fulham etc) would be eye catching and supporters might actually come out and support the Irish team for a change (if it wasn't Celgers or the Prem elite). More chance of them actually giving local football a chance and maybe, just maybe, coming to more games.

It would depend on the plan being workable Europe wide though.

[Charlie Darwin]

Was that addressed to me?

I think much of the current barstool generation is a lost cause so far as the League of Ireland is concerned. They're into glitz, glamour and footballers with haircuts that cost more than Dalymount Park.
Yeah, but as a counterweight, Billy Dennehy's tan and haircut cost more than Lansdowne Road.


The point is I'd pay to go and watch a match thats going to be of a standard worth watching (Shay Given would be a bonus) I'm not going to go and freeze my nads off at Ballybofey every other week watching fairly dismal football in the hope that 80 thousand other people like me around the country are going to spontaneously do the same thing, in the faint hope that one day some time in the future the football will evolve to a standard to make it worth the trouble of going to see.
I'm not sure why you're so concerned with what other people are doing. You can just enjoy football as a spectacle - it's not dependent on a particular number of spectators.

Harps aren't the best side in the world but they compete at a decent standard. Irish sides might not be a patch on the EPL ability-wise, but we have just as many sides who play attractive, attacking football, which is what I always thought people wanted to see.


We need a league with large scale investment from business, television and governing bodies where possible put in place to create a level of football that people want to watch. The security for this investment would of course be us football fans who would pay to watch a decent spectacle were it to become available locally. Every other Euro country their league evolved naturally to a competitive level in accordance with the nation's size/economy etc. For whatever historical reason ours never has so we need a major reboot to ween people off teams across the sea.

'If you build it they will come' ............and if they dont, so what? we dont deserve a decent league then do we and we are either not a proper footballing nation as I like to think we are or else still pitifully culturally dependent on our one time colonial masters. Might as well scrap the national team too if they're all going to have to keep on emigrating to England as soon as they hit puberty to pursue their fortune ( if they're not actually english in the first place) close down the FAI and send them back to the circus. :bye:
Those things would all be nice but they're not essential. I'd like a steak right now but all I can afford is a bit of chicken. I'm still going to enjoy it.

[geysir]

And that's why a victory for Sligo in the final, will be a victory for football.

[Charlie Darwin]

Ah I reckon Dessie will whip out the champagne skills for his last game now that the league title is out of the way.

[peadar1987]

The point is I'd pay to go and watch a match thats going to be of a standard worth watching (Shay Given would be a bonus) I'm not going to go and freeze my nads off at Ballybofey every other week watching fairly dismal football in the hope that 80 thousand other people like me around the country are going to spontaneously do the same thing, in the faint hope that one day some time in the future the football will evolve to a standard to make it worth the trouble of going to see.

Take a look at any of the links on this page (if they're working properly), and you'll see the quality and entertainment are usually more than worth the entrance fee.



We need a league with large scale investment from business, television and governing bodies where possible put in place to create a level of football that people want to watch. The security for this investment would of course be us football fans who would pay to watch a decent spectacle were it to become available locally. Every other Euro country their league evolved naturally to a competitive level in accordance with the nation's size/economy etc. For whatever historical reason ours never has so we need a major reboot to ween people off teams across the sea.

While I agree that more investment in the league is needed, it's not for any want of a decent spectacle. Seriously, go down to Ballybofey for the first 5 home games of next season with an open mind and a mate or two. You'll find that the feeling you get when your team, as crap as they may or may not be, score a last-minute winner beats the feeling you get watching Dimitar Berbatov trap a long pass a million to one.

[Stuttgart88]

Isn't the only way to attract investment by offering some opportunity of investors getting a return? Though I've heard Bord na gCon (isn't it staggering that such a government department even exists/existed?) used to get a budget that the FAI would bite the government's hand for.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah the horsies and the greyhounds are always well taken care of.

[geysir]

Ah I reckon Dessie will whip out the champagne skills for his last game now that the league title is out of the way.
These days, Dessie looks like he packs a good sized dinner with his champagne, he'll hardly last 15 minutes.

[geysir]

I thought Horses and Dogs were industries not sport. At least they don't fall under the Sports capital program.

[backstothewall]

As a fan of the game who hasn't darkened the door of an IL or LOI ground in over 10 years, I guess I'm the kind of person this sort of league would be aimed at. I have long believed a version of the Magners league for football is a potential solution to the problems of the game in Ireland, but it would follow a different format. The big 6 teams in Scotland, the 3 Welsh teams in the English league and maybe Newport, and teams with suitable facilities from Ireland being added as and when they get up to standard. At the minute though the only 2 teams in the country approaching the standard I would be looking at would be Linfield and Shamrock Rovers.

[peadar1987]

The solution to the problems of the game in Ireland could be addressed by a properly functioning domestic league, producing home-grown players, which is not going to happen without interest and investment in the domestic game. Celtic Champions' League competitions could help build up interest in the league, and generate funds, but it's not going to be a panacaea. People can say what they like about the standard of play, the facilities, the weather and the phase of the moon all they want, but the league of Ireland is not going to change unless you, the Irish public, start to take an interest in your own league.

[Adrock]

If you couldn't be bothered coming out in recent years to see David Kelly, Paddy McCourt, Niall McGinn and Liam Coyle, not to mention the visiting likes of Keith Fahey, Seamus Coleman and Kevin Doyle then why would you come see Shay Given?
Ok maybe not Shay Given and 9 third rate nobodys and I certainly wouldnt go out of my way to watch Keith Fahey, or the Rochdale reject for that matter (especially in a stadium full of Derry City fans) , but give me a team of moderately talented individuals I'll be happy.
You can get fun games in the LOI sure as you can at any level of football, professional or amateur but when you are used to seeing top class football you just end up seeing all the flaws of the local game magnified.

[peadar1987]

When you don't consider Keith Fahey talented enough to drag yourself down to the ground to watch, there's little hope of you ever passing through the turnstiles on an LOI ground, unfortunately.

[Charlie Darwin]

Ok maybe not Shay Given and 9 third rate nobodys and I certainly wouldnt go out of my way to watch Keith Fahey, or the Rochdale reject for that matter (especially in a stadium full of Derry City fans) , but give me a team of moderately talented individuals I'll be happy.
You can get fun games in the LOI sure as you can at any level of football, professional or amateur but when you are used to seeing top class football you just end up seeing all the flaws of the local game magnified.
So you're basically looking for a league full of players at least as good as, or better, than Keith Fahey. You realise you're basically looking for the Europa League to be played on your doorstep every week, right?

Otherwise, I'd suggest you move to Dublin, Limerick or Belfast and watch some world class rugby, because the football thing ain't gonna happen.

[SwanVsDalton]

When you don't consider Keith Fahey talented enough to drag yourself down to the ground to watch, there's little hope of you ever passing through the turnstiles on an LOI ground, unfortunately.

Unfortunately? I'm practically willing to throw a parade over it.


Ok maybe not Shay Given and 9 third rate nobodys and I certainly wouldnt go out of my way to watch Keith Fahey, or the Rochdale reject for that matter (especially in a stadium full of Derry City fans) , but give me a team of moderately talented individuals I'll be happy.
You can get fun games in the LOI sure as you can at any level of football, professional or amateur but when you are used to seeing top class football you just end up seeing all the flaws of the local game magnified.

So you want to see a domestic league filled with players above EPL/SPL/international standard? CDarwin's right, you're going to have to move to get it particularly since you're living on some other planet....

Look I really like the Beastie Boys - Paul's Boutique is sick! - but go back to the studio and stop WUMming up the works with your ill-thought out, biased nonsense.

[Adrock]

[QUOTE=SwanVsDalton;1420860]

So you want to see a domestic league filled with players above EPL/SPL/international standard? CDarwin's right, you're going to have to move to get it particularly since you're living on some other planet....
QUOTE]

No, merely a team of players higher than LOI standard, which is pretty much every league in Europe . If you just set up say five teams on this island you could make up decent sides of players from the Republic or northern ireland, sure some lads like those playing for Man U are likely to stay where they are, but most other players in the prem. Championship or better League 1 teams (Keane and Given included with their current situation) would I'm sure consider it if the ambition was there (probably not the English ones who would have to move to a foreign country) .
Fahey could be sub I suppose...... sorry I just dont particularly rate the guy, most times I've seen him at international or premiership level he's looked out of his depth.

Derry city supporters are of course welcome to go on watching the LOI in their charmingly enthusiastic way , as I dont greatly feel inclined to want to be sharing a stadium with them in my new Superclub.

[SwanVsDalton]

most other players in the prem. Championship or better League 1 teams (Keane and Given included with their current situation) would I'm sure consider it if the ambition was there...

Fahey could be sub I suppose......

Better League 1 players? Fahey as sub?

You don't swerve to avoid contradiction do you?

[Charlie Darwin]

No, merely a team of players higher than LOI standard, which is pretty much every league in Europe . If you just set up say five teams on this island you could make up decent sides of players from the Republic or northern ireland, sure some lads like those playing for Man U are likely to stay where they are, but most other players in the prem. Championship or better League 1 teams (Keane and Given included with their current situation) would I'm sure consider it if the ambition was there (probably not the English ones who would have to move to a foreign country) .
Fahey could be sub I suppose...... sorry I just dont particularly rate the guy, most times I've seen him at international or premiership level he's looked out of his depth.
The fact you don't rate him doesn't invalidate the fact he's playing at a much higher standard than the LOI, which is the only criterion you've set down so far. By that logic the EPL would be beneath you too since Fahey gets his game and is obviously not good enough for the new Derry/Donegal Champions League.

[Adrock]

The fact you don't rate him doesn't invalidate the fact he's playing at a much higher standard than the LOI, which is the only criterion you've set down so far. By that logic the EPL would be beneath you too since Fahey gets his game and is obviously not good enough for the new Derry/Donegal Champions League.
There is the EPL as a whole and then there is Keith Fahey. There are from time to time players such as Fahey or Paul Mcshane who get game time without necessarily appearing to be elite level footballers. Sure they are likely to be good enough as squad players at least for the kind of league I'd envisage but, as with my current British club there are certain players I don't rate that highly or exactly salivate at the prospect of watching but that doesn't put me off watching the team as a whole. Maybe he's just not my kind of player. Give me a (fit) Andy Reid any day.

[pineapple stu]

No, merely a team of players higher than LOI standard, which is pretty much every league in Europe.
What you've ignored is that this fact reflects badly on you, personally, as much as anything else. So either do something about it or shut up moaning about it; one or the other.

[Charlie Darwin]

There is the EPL as a whole and then there is Keith Fahey. There are from time to time players such as Fahey or Paul Mcshane who get game time without necessarily appearing to be elite level footballers. Sure they are likely to be good enough as squad players at least for the kind of league I'd envisage but, as with my current British club there are certain players I don't rate that highly or exactly salivate at the prospect of watching but that doesn't put me off watching the team as a whole. Maybe he's just not my kind of player. Give me a (fit) Andy Reid any day.
What's your current British club? And what was the one before that?

[peadar1987]

No, merely a team of players higher than LOI standard, which is pretty much every league in Europe . If you just set up say five teams on this island you could make up decent sides of players from the Republic or northern ireland, sure some lads like those playing for Man U are likely to stay where they are, but most other players in the prem. Championship or better League 1 teams (Keane and Given included with their current situation) would I'm sure consider it if the ambition was there (probably not the English ones who would have to move to a foreign country) .

Fahey could be sub I suppose...... sorry I just dont particularly rate the guy, most times I've seen him at international or premiership level he's looked out of his depth.

So you want 11+ players better than Keith Fahey, who is, I'm guessing, on €10,000+ a week. That's a players' wage bill of about 5 or 6 million+ euro a year. Between 18 home games, you're looking at needing to take in €400,000-€500,000 per home game. Even if you charge the upper end of the scale for tickets, about €20, you still need to attract 20,000-25,000 people to every single game. At the very minimum. It's just not going to work.

And I've said a thousand times before that a provincial system won't work for Irish football. To attract enough people like you, you'd need instant success in Europe. That means around 20 top quality players, who would cost maybe €10 million each. Multiply that by 5 for your proposed 5 teams, and you're already looking at a billion euro, without paying signing on fees or wages. Then you need stadia, because only Lansdowne is up to standard at the moment, so another few hundred million, and even then, you might get a capacity 55,000 crowd for big games against Celtic and Rangers, but are you going to turn up to watch North Wales Dragons or Kilmarnock? I'm guessing no. So why spend about 1.5 billion on a system that doesn't make sense for this sport, when a tenth of that investment could give the League of Ireland 22 decent stadia, and a top quality marketing campaign, which would go a lot of the way to making the competition sustainable?

[The Fly]

What's your current British club? And what was the one before that?

At some stage in the late 90's I'd say it was Wimbledon/Dublin FC.

[Adrock]

What's your current British club? And what was the one before that?
I meant in the context of as opposed to my future Irish Superleague team (or not as the case is likely to be) though then I suppose I would have split allegiances which would complicate matters because you cant really just stop supporting your club you've grown up with, though you can start supporting a club that didn't previously exist (as ever club at one point didn't)

[Macy]

When has it ever been "either or"? Most LoI supporters I know would follow a UK club to some degree or another. On the contrary, it's normally people that refuse point blank to take into a game that try to make it an issue.

[gustavo]

Should your current British club ever endure hardship and be God forbid relegated would you consider switching allegiences rather than have your eyes defiled with the horror of football that isn't 100% aesthetically pleasing?

[Charlie Darwin]

What if your current British club signed Keith Fahey? League 1 here we come?!?!

[peadar1987]

I meant in the context of as opposed to my future Irish Superleague team (or not as the case is likely to be) though then I suppose I would have split allegiances which would complicate matters because you cant really just stop supporting your club you've grown up with, though you can start supporting a club that didn't previously exist (as ever club at one point didn't)


I have no problem reconciling supporting Stoke with following Bray, and attending all the games I can. It's a toss-up which club I feel more affinity for. I agree with Macy, it's onlt those looking for excuses who make an issue of this.

[pineapple stu]

And also, you've family connections with Stoke, yeah?

[geysir]

I'd say most club members in Norway/Sweden avidly follow the EPL, but it doesn't interfere with them following their club.

[peadar1987]

And also, you've family connections with Stoke, yeah?

Yeah, my dad grew up there, and only came over to Ireland to marry my mum.

[pineapple stu]

I'd say most club members in Norway/Sweden avidly follow the EPL, but it doesn't interfere with them following their club.
When I was in Norway for the Ireland game, I met a group of Norwegians who were singing Liverpool songs in the pub. But when I asked them what team in Norway they followed, every one followed their local team, even if they weren't top flight.

[Adrock]

So you want 11+ players better than Keith Fahey, who is, I'm guessing, on €10,000+ a week. That's a players' wage bill of about 5 or 6 million+ euro a year. Between 18 home games, you're looking at needing to take in €400,000-€500,000 per home game. Even if you charge the upper end of the scale for tickets, about €20, you still need to attract 20,000-25,000 people to every single game. At the very minimum. It's just not going to work.

And I've said a thousand times before that a provincial system won't work for Irish football. To attract enough people like you, you'd need instant success in Europe. That means around 20 top quality players, who would cost maybe €10 million each. Multiply that by 5 for your proposed 5 teams, and you're already looking at a billion euro, without paying signing on fees or wages. Then you need stadia, because only Lansdowne is up to standard at the moment, so another few hundred million, and even then, you might get a capacity 55,000 crowd for big games against Celtic and Rangers, but are you going to turn up to watch North Wales Dragons or Kilmarnock? I'm guessing no. So why spend about 1.5 billion on a system that doesn't make sense for this sport, when a tenth of that investment could give the League of Ireland 22 decent stadia, and a top quality marketing campaign, which would go a lot of the way to making the competition sustainable?

Hold your horses I'm not talking about recreating the NFL in Ireland here.....lets not get hysterical .
If we can leave my low opinion of Keith Fahey out of this I am not expecting any new league to be a rival to the EPL or Serie A, I'm merely advocating setting up a few clubs to supplement a few other existing clubs to create a league equivalent perhaps to the top 12 teams in Belgium, Greece or perhaps in the longer term Holland for instance. Given the potential catchment area for these teams this is hardly unrealistic. What other city in Western Europe the size of Dublin for instance doesnt have a more credible football team than Shamrock Rovers?

[Adrock]

What if your current British club signed Keith Fahey? League 1 here we come?!?!

Should your current British club ever endure hardship and be God forbid relegated would you consider switching allegiences rather than have your eyes defiled with the horror of football that isn't 100% aesthetically pleasing?

Lets just say that with my current club either of these scenarios is somewhat more unlikely than Hell hosting the next Winter Olympics and leave it at that.

[pineapple stu]

Set up a few new clubs? What a wonderful idea! Sure we're just brimming with people looking to get involved with clubs. That's a sure fire winner.

Get off your hole and go to a game and just enjoy it for what it is.

[gustavo]

Lucky you then in choosing a really big club :)

[Dodge]

So who's going to pay for these new league and teams then adrock?

As has been said to you al;ready. If you actually went to games (along with the rest of the football fans who don't go to gamnes in this country) we might be able to achieve what you're looking for

But as long as you wait for money to magic itself into Irish football, we'll make do with your internet potshots

[shaneker]

Deleted

[Macy]

Get off your hole and go to a game and just enjoy it for what it is.
Do or don't, I'm beyond caring and just take the football and attendances for what they are. But stand by the "couldn't be bothered" decision and not come up with bs excuses to justify the "don't" option, and be prepared to accept the consquences that is inevitably a weaker national team.

[Adrock]

Lucky you then in choosing a really big club :)

I dint exactly choose it, its kind if a family heirloom