Magners League of Football?

[Adrock]

Dismissing the LoI as "fairly dismal" if your first error. Some games are crap, of course; many are very enjoyable. Some Premiership games are crap too.


Nonsense. The Finnish league in the 60s and 70s was worse than ours; now it gets better attendances than ours and enjoys copious local TV coverage. Ditto the Norwegian league. Did they just sit and wait for something to happen, and strike lucky? Of course not. (I don't know what they did, but that's not really the scope of this post).

But ultimately, all this macro stuff - merge leagues, change the season, change the number of teams, etc - masks the real problem. The real problem is at a micro level. That means the real problem is you. And every person individually. The league isn't going to improve all of itself. It's up to every individual person to try and get involved to improve their club. Unfortunately, in this country, it seems that that's too much effort, and we prefer a bit of an aul whine which ends up with the conclusion that everything is someone else's fault.
Actually the Finnish league is still sh*ite, its one of those few countries in Europe like the other Baltic states or Luxembourg where Football (and i'm not just talking about the domestic league) doesnt have a big enough status compared to other sports - Ice Hockey in this instance - to make it ever amount to much.
Norway's more a case of retarded development. Thirty years ago they were hopeless amateurs getting thumped 8-0 most the time. Once participation and interest in the game developed so did the standard of players which in turn made a proper professional league viable. They only got round to creating it about 20 years ago and not long after international and Champions league success (to a reasonable extent) ensued. Basically as soon as the interest and player development was there to make a decent national league viable it existed.

Ireland's not the same - the passion for football in terms of playing and supporting has always been there - its just directed to playing for and supporting overseas teams . Why? Just because it is and has forever been so and noone's ever tried to do anything about it. Sure if every football supporter in the land just decided suddenly to focus all their interest in the domestic league it could improve a lot very quickly. It would take a seismic change though to shift this perception of domestic football as being pretty naff simply because it is, relative to that in Britain. Yes big interest in and attendance in local football would induce better quality football and vastly diminish our dependence on british clubs but its not just going to happen so you have to reverse the process , namely get a league in place people want to watch and then you can get the fanbase in that will sutain it. I
Its a matter of how to get from Point A where we are to point B where we want to be. Better to built a Panema Canal than keep sailing around Cape Horn anyway even if it costs in the short term.

Anyway I'm fed up getting flack for not being loyal enough to the LOI beacause I do actually catch local games so I know what standard it is. If the LOI was really that teriffic to make us all want to watch it we wouldnt be having this discussion in the first place

[backstothewall]

Just a thought lads. Its been over a year now. What has been the impact on attendances of Shamrock Rovers making the move to a new stadium? Did crowds go up?

I ask because in my opinion the crap facilities are a large part of the problem with Irish football. Even if the standard isn't great, I think more people, families especially, would show up if the grounds didn't look like the set for a movie about English hooliganism in the 70's. If attendances have spiked, it would be evidence that if you build it, they will indeed come, even if other factors would certainly have an influence.

[osarusan]

I ask because in my opinion the crap facilities are a large part of the problem with Irish football. Even if the standard isn't great, I think more people, families especially, would show up if the grounds didn't look like the set for a movie about English hooliganism in the 70's. If attendances have spiked, it would be evidence that if you build it, they will indeed come, even if other factors would certainly have an influence.Do you honestly think LOI clubs don't realise that poor facilities turn people off games?

LOI gets this all the time - "You need better marketing", "Get better players in", "You should improve your advertising", or "just build better facilities." The attitude (and I'm generalising now, not replying to the post quoted) seems to be that the league is completely unaware of how to improve itself.

But we know all these things. The problem is there is no money to do it. As Dodge said, there is only 1 problem with the LOI - we don't have enough funding to do any of these things.

[peadar1987]

Just a thought lads. Its been over a year now. What has been the impact on attendances of Shamrock Rovers making the move to a new stadium? Did crowds go up?

I ask because in my opinion the crap facilities are a large part of the problem with Irish football. Even if the standard isn't great, I think more people, families especially, would show up if the grounds didn't look like the set for a movie about English hooliganism in the 70's. If attendances have spiked, it would be evidence that if you build it, they will indeed come, even if other factors would certainly have an influence.



Get your ass down to Tallaght and see for yourself! ;)

Attendances have spiked since the move to Tallaght, but it's impossible to say if it's because of the nicer facilities, the sense of community, the history of the club, or the excellent marketing Shams have done around the Tallaght area. I think the facilities argument is quite a weak one, to be honest. As I've said before, someone who doesn't turn up because the floodlight pylons are a bit rusty or the concrete is cracked is the same sort of person who wouldn't turn up because Britain's Got Talent was on the TV.

[osarusan]

As I've said before, someone who doesn't turn up because the floodlight pylons are a bit rusty or the concrete is cracked is the same sort of person who wouldn't turn up because Britain's Got Talent was on the TV.

I wouldn't go that far. I think there is a genuine argument that facilities at some grounds (and Jackman park is a prime example) do turn people off games. There are a fair few grounds that, unless a first-time spectator is bitten by the LOI bug immediately, they wouldn't be keen to visit again. Obviously, for some grounds, this is less of a problem, and for some fans, it may even be part of the appeal.

But a switch to a Magners league style set-up would probably result in clubs spending even more on players to get into it, and less on facilities. So unless the improvement of facilities was paid for by the sponsor (and we're talking millions here for most grounds), they wouldn't take place.

Now it could be argued that it's up to clubs to get their house in order and build the facilities to enable them to get into the league, but shorn of two or three of the bigger teams in the country whose grounds are good enough for Magners (Rovers, Cork, Bohs (maybe), and with the added competition of a new domestic league overshadowing it, attracting fans and sponsors who would make such improvements feasible would be virtually impossible.

[danthesaint]

I meant in the context of as opposed to my future Irish Superleague team (or not as the case is likely to be) though then I suppose I would have split allegiances which would complicate matters because you cant really just stop supporting your club you've grown up with, though you can start supporting a club that didn't previously exist (as ever club at one point didn't)

why not, i did, i used to like man utd, and have actually been to old trafford, unlike your fellow bangwagon jumpers, but i stopped, when i was going to pats matches, you are more of an eastender supporter than you are a man utd supporter.

so you support EPL because of the standard, maybe you should watch la liga because the standard of football in that league is better!!!!!

[backstothewall]

Do you honestly think LOI clubs don't realise that poor facilities turn people off games?

LOI gets this all the time - "You need better marketing", "Get better players in", "You should improve your advertising", or "just build better facilities." The attitude (and I'm generalising now, not replying to the post quoted) seems to be that the league is completely unaware of how to improve itself.

But we know all these things. The problem is there is no money to do it. As Dodge said, there is only 1 problem with the LOI - we don't have enough funding to do any of these things.

I'm sorry I can't agree. Local teams seem more than able to run up massive overdrafts to pay players 100k a year, but completely incapable of borrowing money in a sane way to pay for infrastructure projects (I'm generalising now). There is money there, but its all going on the credit card instead of the mortgage. I know if we were starting again, we wouldn't start from here, and the credit card bill is there and needs to be paid off, but the first step is to cut up the credit card. There's no point paying it off and spending on it at the same time. Your running to stand still.

But the race to the bottom carries on as it always has done, and paying a 34 year old Joseph Ndo is a higher priority for Sligo Rovers than getting a decent stadium? How long until they can't pay a tax bill?

I don't think people are saying that the league isn't aware of what to do. They are saying they need to get on with doing it.


Get your ass down to Tallaght and see for yourself! ;)

No idea what it was like before, so i have nothing to compare it against! seriously though, most of my live sport tends to be rugby. All of it actually.

[Charlie Darwin]

But the race to the bottom carries on as it always has done, and paying a 34 year old Joseph Ndo is a higher priority for Sligo Rovers than getting a decent stadium? How long until they can't pay a tax bill?
Have you done any research on Sligo's financial situation or are you just guessing?

[backstothewall]

I have done no research beyond what I can find on Google, and I have no idea about the finances of the club, but I find the business decision that was taken to employ him curious for the following reasons...

(a) Rovers have fairly dilapidated facilities
(b) The population of Sligo is under 20,000
(c) Ndo went to 2 world cups, and even at 34 I would imagine isn't far off a 6 figure salary

So how the hell are the paying for him? And more importantly, why are they paying for him?

The only business model that can possibly work for a club of their size is to bring through local talent, and sell them on to bigger clubs in Ireland or across the water. He is taking the place of a local kid in that squad who could be sold on at a profit.

I don't blame the man for going there, he has a family to feed, but he should never have been offered the opportunity, and his example is typical of the boneheaded decisions that have blighted the game here for decades. Unless I missed a sugar-daddy owner buying Sligo Rovers the whole situation is crackers.

[Adrock]

why not, i did, i used to like man utd, and have actually been to old trafford, unlike your fellow bangwagon jumpers, but i stopped, when i was going to pats matches, you are more of an eastender supporter than you are a man utd supporter.

so you support EPL because of the standard, maybe you should watch la liga because the standard of football in that league is better!!!!!
Well Spain's a bit of a trek and besides outside the top few clubs I think there is a massive drop off in quality. I think the Bundesliga is probably tops in terms of depth.
Anyway Britain's easy to get to, my family indoctrinated me in to their footballing ways and it is something I can discuss with my peers that we have a common interest in , which isn't so easy with Irish domestic football.
In any case I support an SPL club so its not like my standards are exactly sky high, which puts be in a good position to identify the troubled state of that league, which I have juxtaposed with our own sorry domestic competition and identified a common solution. Still at least over there at a minimum half the teams playing in the match have a bit of quality about them! I like Man U too though, definitely a great club. You can have a conversation with practically any english speaking dude in the world about Manchester United quite easy it seems.

[Stuttgart88]

Too many points raised here to get stuck into, but I honestly think there's no contradiction in being Irish and being drawn to British football. I do think there's a contradiction in being a football fan and having no interest whatsoever in Irish football if you're Irish. It doesn't have to be your driving passion.

Footy is weird though. There are so many reasons to attach yourself to the game. At one extreme you have local fans who adore their team but have little regard for the wider game, and at the other you have devotees of the game who are detached from any club affiliation. Most exist in somewhere in between. My guess is that there's something that can be done to entice people interested in football to attend more Irish football and I don't think it'd take a marketing genius to figure it out.

Maybe we should just be happy that many people actually play the game rather than pay to attend it. That's at least one measure of any national association's performance. A population of 4 million can't exactly be expected to compete across the continent.

[Charlie Darwin]

I have done no research beyond what I can find on Google, and I have no idea about the finances of the club, but I find the business decision that was taken to employ him curious for the following reasons...

(a) Rovers have fairly dilapidated facilities
(b) The population of Sligo is under 20,000
(c) Ndo went to 2 world cups, and even at 34 I would imagine isn't far off a 6 figure salary

So how the hell are the paying for him? And more importantly, why are they paying for him?

The only business model that can possibly work for a club of their size is to bring through local talent, and sell them on to bigger clubs in Ireland or across the water. He is taking the place of a local kid in that squad who could be sold on at a profit.

I don't blame the man for going there, he has a family to feed, but he should never have been offered the opportunity, and his example is typical of the boneheaded decisions that have blighted the game here for decades. Unless I missed a sugar-daddy owner buying Sligo Rovers the whole situation is crackers.

A SIX-figure sum? I have no idea what Ndo gets paid but it's not even close to that. There's not a player in the league who does.

Sligo is a small town but the club's attendances are second only to Shamrock Rovers and they've a smaller playing budget than Bohs, Rovers, Fingal and possibly Pats too (although I believe Pats were fully part-time last season). It's a co-op owned by the fans and the people of Sligo so they're basically not allowed to spend beyond their means anymore.

As it happens, the signing of Ndo has coincided with a renaissance in the club's fortunes: they've qualified for the Europa League on merit and won the lesser cup with a possible victory in the FAI Cup to follow (no, seriously, they won't win). He's been arguably their most important player this season alongside Ryan, and if it was his signing that pushed them over the edge to European qualification and cup success then I'd say he was a very shrewd investment.

As far as being a development club - the opposite is probably true. They're one of the top 5 biggest clubs in the country and their only fault is that they don't produce enough local players to reflect their size.

Also, according to the Sligo fans on here the club's turned a profit for the last couple of years. I know they have residual debt but they deserve all the success they get (as long as it's not next Sunday).

[backstothewall]

A SIX-figure sum? I have no idea what Ndo gets paid but it's not even close to that. There's not a player in the league who does.

Sligo is a small town but the club's attendances are second only to Shamrock Rovers and they've a smaller playing budget than Bohs, Rovers, Fingal and possibly Pats too (although I believe Pats were fully part-time last season). It's a co-op owned by the fans and the people of Sligo so they're basically not allowed to spend beyond their means anymore.

As it happens, the signing of Ndo has coincided with a renaissance in the club's fortunes: they've qualified for the Europa League on merit and won the lesser cup with a possible victory in the FAI Cup to follow (no, seriously, they won't win). He's been arguably their most important player this season alongside Ryan, and if it was his signing that pushed them over the edge to European qualification and cup success then I'd say he was a very shrewd investment.

As far as being a development club - the opposite is probably true. They're one of the top 5 biggest clubs in the country and their only fault is that they don't produce enough local players to reflect their size.

Also, according to the Sligo fans on here the club's turned a profit for the last couple of years. I know they have residual debt but they deserve all the success they get (as long as it's not next Sunday).

Theres not a player in the league getting a 6 figure sum? You realise that's only €2000 a week right? I would have grave difficulty in believing that.

When Derry City had their latest crisis the squad were owed £200,000stg (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/local/so-where-did-it-all-go-wrong-for-derry-city-14557099.html) within 3 few months, and they were still getting a quarter of their wages, so there must be someone in the league getting 100k a year, and there's no way Ndo is running around there for €250 a week

And of course Sligo are doing well on the field, they seem to be paying the most money and that's how football works. And of course they made a profit. No Irish clubs ever lose money, they turn a profit every year right up until examinership/administration.

If we were talking about this 2 years ago you could have made all the same points. You would just have to replace the word "Sligo" with "Drogheda". It wasn't sustainable there, and it won't be any more sustainable in Sligo. Football is in competition with the more comfortable facilities of the GAA, which can afford them because they don't pay their players. Which brings me back to my point, that it should be a higher priority for any club to be making payments on a comfortable purpose built all seater stand, than on the talents of a hasbeen star signing. That can come once the bricks and mortar are right.

[Charlie Darwin]

ONLY 2k a week?

Sligo are not paying the most money. Bohemians were paying the most money, Fingal second (we think) and Rovers third. Sligo were next in line, with Pats and Dundalk not far behind.


No Irish clubs ever lose money, they turn a profit every year right up until examinership/administration.
You seem to have made your mind up already. Bohs have been losing money for years. So were Cork. Derry were despite fiddling with their accounts. A club making a profit is a club making a profit, simple as.


If we were talking about this 2 years ago you could have made all the same points. You would just have to replace the word "Sligo" with "Drogheda". It wasn't sustainable there, and it won't be any more sustainable in Sligo.
No, I couldn't, and wouldn't, because Drogheda were always losing money at the expense of a benefactor.

[backstothewall]

ONLY 2k a week?

Sligo are not paying the most money. Bohemians were paying the most money, Fingal second (we think) and Rovers third. Sligo were next in line, with Pats and Dundalk not far behind.


You seem to have made your mind up already. Bohs have been losing money for years. So were Cork. Derry were despite fiddling with their accounts. A club making a profit is a club making a profit, simple as.


No, I couldn't, and wouldn't, because Drogheda were always losing money at the expense of a benefactor.

Say your right about all that, its still nuts. The money Sligo or anyone else may or may not have can only be spent once, and spending it on big name signings offers nothing but instant gratification. Using that cash to invest in improving the facilities offers a legacy that can't be taken away from the clubs. Once it is done it will improve the match day experience, and also provide an income from corporate events, concerts and the like.

And it has to be said, given the chequered history of the league, that it also has the advantage of securing the future of a club in the community. New stadiums will inevitably be financed by local government, and if like in the case of Shamrock Rovers are owned by the local council, no matter how badly the clubs are run, the local stadium will never be repossessed by the banks. All of which allows the fans to come along behind, pick up the pieces, set up a successor club, and simply rent the same ground off the local council

[danthesaint]

Well Spain's a bit of a trek and besides outside the top few clubs I think there is a massive drop off in quality. I think the Bundesliga is probably tops in terms of depth.
Anyway Britain's easy to get to, my family indoctrinated me in to their footballing ways and it is something I can discuss with my peers that we have a common interest in , which isn't so easy with Irish domestic football.

Thats a cop out!! You could easily make as many la liga games a year than you can premiersh1t games. England or the mainland to you is easy to get to, easier that say your local football team??





In any case I support an SPL club so its not like my standards are exactly sky high, which puts be in a good position to identify the troubled state of that league, which I have juxtaposed with our own sorry domestic competition and identified a common solution. Still at least over there at a minimum half the teams playing in the match have a bit of quality about them! I like Man U too though, definitely a great club. You can have a conversation with practically any english speaking dude in the world about Manchester United quite easy it seems.

so you "support" a club in the SPL, how many games do you travel to?

As you "support" an SPL club and like man ure, can you not add a third team to a team ya like. it will only cost you 10-15 euro a week, that will be 100euro cheaper than having to get a flight to see 90 worth of football, that you wouldnt even be guaranteed to be a good game.

[Charlie Darwin]

Say your right about all that, its still nuts. The money Sligo or anyone else may or may not have can only be spent once, and spending it on big name signings offers nothing but instant gratification. Using that cash to invest in improving the facilities offers a legacy that can't be taken away from the clubs. Once it is done it will improve the match day experience, and also provide an income from corporate events, concerts and the like.

And it has to be said, given the chequered history of the league, that it also has the advantage of securing the future of a club in the community. New stadiums will inevitably be financed by local government, and if like in the case of Shamrock Rovers are owned by the local council, no matter how badly the clubs are run, the local stadium will never be repossessed by the banks. All of which allows the fans to come along behind, pick up the pieces, set up a successor club, and simply rent the same ground off the local council
You're still presuming that Ndo is being paid massive wages. He's a 34-year-old who had played very little football in the two or three seasons before he moved to Sligo, which is why Bohs let him go. He's in no position to demand big wages and Sligo have done nothing to suggest they're interested in paying big wages.

[backstothewall]

You're still presuming that Ndo is being paid massive wages. He's a 34-year-old who had played very little football in the two or three seasons before he moved to Sligo, which is why Bohs let him go. He's in no position to demand big wages and Sligo have done nothing to suggest they're interested in paying big wages.

He's been to 2 world cups! he has 21 caps for Cameroon, and probably deserved many many more. Even at 34 he would still command a good wage, but without a copy of his contract i suppose there is no way of being sure.

Interesting article on the BBC today about Chesterfield and the new stadium they built. Average crowd in 2010 is 6,244, in contrast with 3,593 a year ago.


Chesterfield find their field of dreams
Post categories: Football
Paul Fletcher | 06:53 UK time, Friday, 12 November 2010
Chesterfield chairman Barrie Hubbard realised 27 years ago that his club needed to move to a new ground.

It has taken a lot longer than he initially anticipated but, after several unsuccessful attempts to secure a new site, the Spireites finally left rickety old Saltergate in the summer after 139 years and moved into their brand new 10,379-capacity b2net Stadium.

At first glance, the move appears to have transformed the Derbyshire club, who currently top the League Two table with the best home record in the Football League. Only Crewe have left the new arena with a share of the spoils following a remarkable 5-5 draw.

But the impact extends far beyond what happens on the pitch. Just as Liverpool are desperate to increase revenue by leaving Anfield for a bigger stadium, so the Spireites are hoping to reap the rewards of their relocation to a modern facility.


The b2net Stadium has brought significant benefits to Chesterfield. Photo: Getty Images

"If you never visited Saltergate, then you missed out on a treat but we had to leave because we were losing money every year," said Hubbard, who is in his second spell as chairman at the club. He was not involved with the club during the infamous period when Darren Brown took the club to the brink of extinction.

In the end, as is the way in the modern game, it all boils down to money. At Saltergate, the club only generated income on the 40 or so days a year when they hosted games. Now they have year-round revenue streams.

"We do not have any corporate boxes as such but what we have done is build a conference and banqueting centre and fastened a ground on to it," said Hubbard.

More than 5,000 people are booked in to attend Christmas parties at the stadium during December, while the club also has a licence to hold weddings.

Chesterfield are not unique in moving to a new purpose-built ground. Of the teams in League One and League Two, Southampton, Colchester, MK Dons, Oxford, Burton and Shrewsbury have all done it in the last 10 years.

Colchester left Layer Road for the Weston Homes Community Stadium in 2008. They had 40 hospitality places at the old ground but now have 650 and serve an average of between 250 and 300 meals at each home game. They also have a range of rooms, boasting a capacity from 10 to 400, that have hosted comedy nights, bowls and sportsmans dinners, while the club will stage an amateur boxing event in January.

"The move has broadened our horizons," U's media manager matt Hudson told me. "Layer Road was not a place where we would be able to grow."

Colchester, whose ground cost £14.2m to build, have four charity partners that are able to hire stadium facilities at cost. Organisations such as the National Blood Service use it.

Work will soon start, too, on kitting out the east stand as a community-orientated facility. There will be a gym, restaurant, police station, classrooms and children's play area. There is a clear sense of pride in Hubbard's voice as he tells me all this.

"It has given the entire town a lift," he said. "It has given everyone a new lease of life."

It is a view shared by veteran striker Jack Lester, who has been at Chesterfield since 2007 and is desperate to mark his time at the club with a promotion.

"The people of Chesterfield are really proud of the new ground," said Lester, who scored the winner in the opening league fixture at the new ground. "We are quite a small club but the new ground can help us move on to the next stage."

The makers of The Damned United were looking for a ground as antiquated as the old Baseball Ground in Derby to film scenes from the film, which focused on Brian Clough's ill-fated 44-day reign as manager of Leeds United in 1974. They found it at Saltergate, which served as the Baseball Ground, Elland Road and, remarkably, the old Wembley at various points during the film.

Saltergate was a tight and compact stadium, often boasting a good atmosphere on match day, particularly midweek. Lester joked that it looked as though the last renovation at the old ground had taken place shortly after its construction in 1871.

Players often trained at Saltergate on Friday and would rush to the showers afterwards in the knowledge the hot water would soon run out. The squad would then make their way home to eat lunch. Now the players eat lunch together.

Lester says it means they spend more time as a group talking about forthcoming games and believes it has contributed to their good form. It is a small detail but important.

I asked Chesterfield fans on 606 what they thought about the move to the new ground. CSCFC summed up the difference when he said: "Saltergate - pick the dead spiders off the loo roll. B2net - clean, warm and comfortable."


Saltergate was in use from 1871 but the time had come for the club to move on. Photo: Getty Images.

At Saltergate, you were out on the street within seconds of leaving the ground. At the new ground, the concourse boasts bar and food kiosks, as well as flatscreen televisions.

Bransoj said: "It has changed my match-day experience completely. I used to leave the pub five minutes before the game and wander in as we kicked off. Now I'm there 45 minutes before, using the concourse facilities and putting the money back in the club."

But perhaps the most ringing endorsement for the new stadium comes in the form of increased attendances. The club have an identical home record to last season following their opening eight home fixtures, with seven wins and one draw. Yet the average crowd in 2010 is 6,244, in contrast with 3,593 a year ago.

Hubbard thought an acid test of the new ground's pulling power would be the recent midweek match against Accrington. Last season, the match, which the home team won 1-0, was played on a Saturday and watched by 3,104. This year, 6,034 passed through the turnstiles on a wet and miserable Tuesday to watch the Spireites thump their opponents 5-2. When I first spoke to Hubbard, he was busy helping out with the sale of tickets.

I get the impression Hubbard is a man with his feet firmly on the ground. Towards the end of our conversation, he sounded a note of caution. The cost of the ground has been financed privately, involving what Hubbard described as some "friendly loans" that have not yet been fully repaid. On the field, it will be many months remain before an excellent start to the season becomes real achievement.

Hubbard would not be drawn on the difference in match-day revenue since the move, at least not in terms of actual figures, but he did concede that it had at least doubled. He was also at pains to point out that outgoings had also increased by more than 100%.

But almost three decades after the chairman initially thought it was time to move, he might just have overseen Chesterfield's very own field of dreams.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulfletcher/2010/11/chesterfield.html#270434

[peadar1987]

He's been to 2 world cups! he has 21 caps for Cameroon, and probably deserved many many more. Even at 34 he would still command a good wage, but without a copy of his contract i suppose there is no way of being sure.

Interesting article on the BBC today about Chesterfield and the new stadium they built. Average crowd in 2010 is 6,244, in contrast with 3,593 a year ago.

Combining the stadium with other community facilities is a great idea, similar to what Dundalk have done with Oriel

[Bungle]

As someone who regularly goes to domestic games, i find the idea of a magner's league interesting and potentially something that could improve domestic teams, their finances and also their facilities. It could re-invigorate the four nations leagues.

If this league consisted of teams from the Republic, the North, Wales and Scotland, then it could be fairly viable. There would be a large away support going to games and there are enough big cities to ensure that the league can grow. As well as this, there are cities such as Cork and Aberdeen where there would be a healthy support and undoubted full attendances for many of the games.

I suppose there would have to be a promotion/relegation opportunity for teams from the National leagues to get in. The league might look like this
Scotland
Celtic, Rangers, Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee, Motherwell

Wales
Cardiff, Swansea, TNS

Northern Ireland
Linfield, Glentoran, Cliftonville

Republic of Ireland
Shamrock Rovers, Bohs, Cork City, Derry City, Sligo Rovers

[peadar1987]

As someone who regularly goes to domestic games, i find the idea of a magner's league interesting and potentially something that could improve domestic teams, their finances and also their facilities. It could re-invigorate the four nations leagues.

If this league consisted of teams from the Republic, the North, Wales and Scotland, then it could be fairly viable. There would be a large away support going to games and there are enough big cities to ensure that the league can grow. As well as this, there are cities such as Cork and Aberdeen where there would be a healthy support and undoubted full attendances for many of the games.

I suppose there would have to be a promotion/relegation opportunity for teams from the National leagues to get in. The league might look like this
Scotland
Celtic, Rangers, Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee, Motherwell

Wales
Cardiff, Swansea, TNS

Northern Ireland
Linfield, Glentoran, Cliftonville

Republic of Ireland
Shamrock Rovers, Bohs, Cork City, Derry City, Sligo Rovers


I think it would work better as a sort of expanded, and better run, form of the Setanta Cup. You qualify for it by doing well enough in your domestic competition

[bennocelt]

Are people on drugs or what!!! Irish people wont get off their barstool to watch Motherwell V S Fingal, or will there be many travelling fans in these days of economic downturn coming from Scotland to see their team against Distillery or the like.
We have a decent league, anything else is just rubbish

[Rasputin]

He's been to 2 world cups! he has 21 caps for Cameroon, and probably deserved many many more. Even at 34 he would still command a good wage, but without a copy of his contract i suppose there is no way of being sure.
Your pathetic muleings are just that, absolute uneducated drivel, talking out your ****ing arse about a club you obviously know nothing about.
Since you seem to have such a hard on for our Joey I can gaurantee you that he is on no more than a grand a week.
From what I heard before we signed him we had 650 euro a week free on the playing budget so im guessing that its either that or a bit less, he wasnt exactly in a position to command a big wage and we are not a club that pander to big wage players.
As for our facilities I suggest you look at pictures of the showgies 15 years ago to what it is now, its come on so so well, dead proud of our club.
As for youth players unfortunately we do not have a pool of players to pull from like the Dublin Clubs do with the LSL so hence why our club has ALWAYS depended heavily on foreign imports.
This is not a new phenominon, look at our league winning side from the 30's and our league winning side from the 70's.
Sure even in the 90's Athlone fans used to sing "SRFC Scottish Rejects" at us.
Always a large core of foreign lads with a sprinkling of local lads, very much the same as it is now.
As for our finances, as far as im aware our finances are sound.
Last year we were the only club to turn a 6 figure profit so I suggest you educate yourself before you embaress yourself any further with your inane ramblings about our great club.
Now kindly **** off to your barstool.

[Saint_Charlie]

I think some clubs subsidize wages by offering perks like providing a car or a place to stay. Not saying this is the case with Ndo and Sligo (as I have no idea!) but I know some clubs do that to keep players sweet when they are on lower wages

[BonnieShels]

Why in gods name would the likes of cardiff and swansea give up the opportunity of epl money to join such a rag tag competition?

Let's concentrate on the real problem and realistic solutions and not talk silly with such pie in the sky notions!

[Colbert Report]

I know I'll get slated for saying this but the only way we'll ever get world class football on a regular basis in Ireland is if the LOI goes under and the English FA let some rich businessman put a "franchise" team in Dublin. I can see 50,000+ showing up once every ten days to Landsdowne Road to see a Dublin United type team play in the Premiership. Of course, it will never happen and we'll be stuck with the crap football forever.

[SkStu]

every so often you pop up with this crap CR and then every so often i address it - you'd think id have learned by now - but, essentially, if you dont support it then youre not stuck with anything. Keep watching your premiership and enjoy it.

[bennocelt]

I know I'll get slated for saying this but the only way we'll ever get world class football on a regular basis in Ireland is if the LOI goes under and the English FA let some rich businessman put a "franchise" team in Dublin. I can see 50,000+ showing up once every ten days to Landsdowne Road to see a Dublin United type team play in the Premiership. Of course, it will never happen and we'll be stuck with the crap football forever.

Over 36,00 people would disagree

[pineapple stu]

I think it's fair to say I have never seen so much rubbish posted in a single thread. Some people simply haven't a clue what they're talking about. Unreal nonsense.

[backstothewall]

Your pathetic muleings are just that, absolute uneducated drivel, talking out your ****ing arse about a club you obviously know nothing about.
Since you seem to have such a hard on for our Joey I can gaurantee you that he is on no more than a grand a week.
From what I heard before we signed him we had 650 euro a week free on the playing budget so im guessing that its either that or a bit less, he wasnt exactly in a position to command a big wage and we are not a club that pander to big wage players.
As for our facilities I suggest you look at pictures of the showgies 15 years ago to what it is now, its come on so so well, dead proud of our club.
As for youth players unfortunately we do not have a pool of players to pull from like the Dublin Clubs do with the LSL so hence why our club has ALWAYS depended heavily on foreign imports.
This is not a new phenominon, look at our league winning side from the 30's and our league winning side from the 70's.
Sure even in the 90's Athlone fans used to sing "SRFC Scottish Rejects" at us.
Always a large core of foreign lads with a sprinkling of local lads, very much the same as it is now.
As for our finances, as far as im aware our finances are sound.
Last year we were the only club to turn a 6 figure profit so I suggest you educate yourself before you embaress yourself any further with your inane ramblings about our great club.
Now kindly **** off to your barstool.

You guarantee he isn't on more than a grand a week! How can you guarantee anything? You know no more about this than anyone else, other than what you were told by some fella behind the goal at the Showgrounds who took one of the board home in his taxi. Even if your right about the figure on paper, we all know what was going on at Derry. How can we be sure it isn't happening elsewhere?

I am certainly not having a go at your club, or any other club. I am simply looking in at a dreadfully run league, where club after club spend money they don't have to get to the upper end of the league, only to end up relegated, and picked Sligo at random as an example.

This is a league where a team that have won the title on the pitch, ended up being relegated because of what has been going on off it, a 10 team division which has had 4 members (Derry, Cork, Drogheda and Shelbourne) have various financial difficulties in recent years, as well as all manner of other **** ups from player registration, to UEFA licences.

The problem all this creates is that people don't know what they are watching. If people wanted to see the league title being decided by a committee meeting a week after the end of the season, they would buy a season ticket to the meetings rather than the football matches.

If your happy enough winning the cup and getting ****ed tonight that fair enough, but the way in which you reacted to me questioning how it is all being paid for is exactly why clubs are willing to take reckless financial risks chasing the rainbow.

For what its worth, I watched the cup final on telly. Sligo played very well, and thoroughly deserved their win. It was really refreshing to see a big crowd at a local match in a modern stadium. More of that please.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I think it's fair to say I have never seen so much rubbish posted in a single thread. Some people simply haven't a clue what they're talking about. Unreal nonsense.
Perhaps that's because it sums up the whole idea??

Even certain contributions on the 'Eligibility' thread might seem on a higher plane....
;)

[peadar1987]

I know I'll get slated for saying this but the only way we'll ever get world class football on a regular basis in Ireland is if the LOI goes under and the English FA let some rich businessman put a "franchise" team in Dublin. I can see 50,000+ showing up once every ten days to Landsdowne Road to see a Dublin United type team play in the Premiership. Of course, it will never happen and we'll be stuck with the crap football forever.

I've said this a million times, the money would be so much better spent on improving the existing structure of the league. A "Dublin United" side would not contribute to the national team, the grass-roots game, or anything else apart from the bank accounts of overpaid prima donnas. I can't believe that anyone would suggest that the collapse of the national league would be a good thing. If you want to see "world class football", with diving cheats and hyperinflated egos, buy a Sky subscription and stop wishing ill on our league. Unless you have a spare billion or two to help set up this "Dublin United"

[BonnieShels]

If there was an independent competition a la the 4 associations tournament for clubs replacing the setanta of course, then I can say yeah... however not as a replacement for the leagues. Thats just idiotic.

Though as Stu has rightly pointed out this thread is full of guano.

[Charlie Darwin]

You guarantee he isn't on more than a grand a week! How can you guarantee anything? You know no more about this than anyone else, other than what you were told by some fella behind the goal at the Showgrounds who took one of the board home in his taxi. Even if your right about the figure on paper, we all know what was going on at Derry. How can we be sure it isn't happening elsewhere?

I am certainly not having a go at your club, or any other club. I am simply looking in at a dreadfully run league, where club after club spend money they don't have to get to the upper end of the league, only to end up relegated, and picked Sligo at random as an example.

This is a league where a team that have won the title on the pitch, ended up being relegated because of what has been going on off it, a 10 team division which has had 4 members (Derry, Cork, Drogheda and Shelbourne) have various financial difficulties in recent years, as well as all manner of other **** ups from player registration, to UEFA licences.
You'd swear you actually knew what you're talking about. You've already admitted you know next to nothing about the league, yet you're willing to tar Sligo with the same brush as all of the failed overspending clubs from years past.

Your sole piece of evidence appears to be Joseph Ndo, a 34-year-old player past his prime who long ago decided he was willing to play at a lower level because it suited his lifestyle. You seem to believe he is earning mega wages despite the fact the two big clubs in the country have passed on him and he's joined a smaller club (in monetary terms) and helped them win two trophies.

[Colbert Report]

I don't want to start anything on here and I'll openly admit that I'm very ignorant when it comes to the LOI but I will say that it seems to me that the league doesn't contribute a whole lot to either the national team or the grassroots organisation of the sport in this country.

Before you all pop in going on about Kevin Doyle and Seamus Coleman, ask yourself, do you really think they wouldn't have gotten on with a League 2 club over in England and gone on to progress from there?

It won't cost one to two billion to get the sport going for realsies in Ireland. It would only take twenty to thirty million over the course of a two or three year timespan to get a club into the group stages of the Champions League and build from there. Honestly though, is the sport popular enough in this country to support that? I know people will show up to watch Bohemians play Manchester United one week but will they be willing to show up to see Bohemians vs. Sligo Rovers the next? I just don't see it. I guess we'll just have to keep plodding along with things the way they are. For those of you who like it, good on you for supporting your local team, I only wish I had one to support here in Canada. I'm stuck watching the EPL on weekend mornings.

[Colbert Report]

Over 36,00 people would disagree

From the independent:

The FAI deserves credit too for reducing prices for today's Cup final and have reaped the reward with sales in excess of 30,000, a throwback to the days when football was an affordable lifeline for people who had time on their hands but little money.

[bennocelt]

For those of you who like it, good on you for supporting your local team, I only wish I had one to support here in Canada. I'm stuck watching the EPL on weekend mornings.

No team? Doubt that. If not, why not get off your a ss and start one?

[peadar1987]

I don't want to start anything on here and I'll openly admit that I'm very ignorant when it comes to the LOI but I will say that it seems to me that the league doesn't contribute a whole lot to either the national team or the grassroots organisation of the sport in this country.

Nobody's denying it could be better, but I'm sure you'll agree 20 to 30 clubs distributed throughout the country, linked strongly with the local community and amateur football structure have far more potential to produce players, and provide football to the general population than one super club in Dublin, 4 hours travel from footballing hotbeds like Cork and Derry.




Before you all pop in going on about Kevin Doyle and Seamus Coleman, ask yourself, do you really think they wouldn't have gotten on with a League 2 club over in England and gone on to progress from there?

It's a lot to ask of a young lad at 15 or 16 to up sticks, and put all his eggs in the professional football basket in a different country. Those two probably would have made it, but hundreds would be left with no qualifications, and no job prospects. Far better to allow them to stay with their families and friends, continuing their education while playing youth football with Sligo, Longford or Dundalk.




It won't cost one to two billion to get the sport going for realsies in Ireland. It would only take twenty to thirty million over the course of a two or three year timespan to get a club into the group stages of the Champions League and build from there. Honestly though, is the sport popular enough in this country to support that? I know people will show up to watch Bohemians play Manchester United one week but will they be willing to show up to see Bohemians vs. Sligo Rovers the next? I just don't see it. I guess we'll just have to keep plodding along with things the way they are. For those of you who like it, good on you for supporting your local team, I only wish I had one to support here in Canada. I'm stuck watching the EPL on weekend mornings.

Maybe you're different, but most Irish football "fans" see teams like Panathinaikos and CFR Cluj as failures, despite regular Champions' League football. It's not enough just to qualify, the team would have to hold their own with the likes of Man United and Chelsea to wrestle the support away from them. That's going to take a squad of 20 ~€20 millon players, plus their wages and signing-on fees.

If we want to bring attendances at Irish football up, it makes no sense to deliberately try and bring it into direct competition with the richest league in the world. Any campaign should focus on local pride and community connections. If you make the only choice on the grounds of quality, Manchester United are going to win every time. Bring community into it, and you're more likely to get the punters in the gates of Turner's Cross, the Brandywell and Tallaght Stadium.

[SwanVsDalton]

If there was an independent competition a la the 4 associations tournament for clubs replacing the setanta of course, then I can say yeah... however not as a replacement for the leagues. Thats just idiotic.

Though as Stu has rightly pointed out this thread is full of guano.

In fairness the thread has shifted significantly from Stutts' original proposal of a re-vamped Europa League. There is a lot of nonsense flying around but maybe best to focus on whatever glimmer's of debate we can, in the interest of good-natured argument.

Personally major domestic league re-vamps, with the potential exception of an All Ireland league, are a no-no since they fundamentally ignore the real issues with domestic soccer. But are there any outlandish, potential innovative, restructuring ideas which could work in the league's favour? Stutts' was fairly pie-in-the-sky, and probably unworkable, but it was still an interesting one given the current Europa League is fairly guff at the moment.

[BonnieShels]

I like Stutts' idea in essence as it would revamp what is a fairly gash tournament however I think there is some merit in figuring out what it is we want from Irish soccer first before we seriously consider anything like what has been said so far in this thread and even concerning ourselves with worrying about the Europa League or the state of Scottish football.There are serious fundamental issues with the game here which we all know and these really need to be addressed and fast the Fingal (open to correction here but it ain't looking good as yet, that may change but we don't know so the uncertainty is unacceptable in my eyes) and Bohs situations showcase what can go wrong when.
There is some time between now and January/Feb when the licences are announced to really discuss what we want.
Should we try to emulate the British systems of soccer or should we be more radical with an elite league and lots of feeder/provincial leagues? These are already in place and need to be worked on so that all parts of the league exist to help out all other parts of the league. I want a vibrant, stable and well supported and exciting league. European football should come next in the priorities.

[BonnieShels]

For those of you who like it, good on you for supporting your local team, I only wish I had one to support here in Canada. I'm stuck watching the EPL on weekend mornings.

I have no idea where you are in Canada so I can't point you to a particular place to check out local soccer where you are but if you were to take a minute to peruse canadasoccer.com I'm sure you may find what you are looking for.

Currently there are 3 large professional teams in Canada Toronto FC (MLS), Vancouver Whitecaps (MLS from 2011) and Montreal Impact (USSF D2 Pro, MLS from 2012). They all compete (independently in the Canadian Championship for the Voyageurs Cup, the winner of which gains Canada's place in the Concacaf Champions League.
I'm sure either of these teams could suffice unless now you're in Alberta and you have some deep seated "dur taking uurr oil" problems with Ontario, BC and Quebec.
Below this elite level there exists a National Championship where lower level teams compete on a provincial and then national basis. There must be one local team you can pick and support as your own and considering the level of the league maybe get involved with on some other level.

Supporting the EPL from Canada is not an excuse.

[Colbert Report]

I have no idea where you are in Canada so I can't point you to a particular place to check out local soccer where you are but if you were to take a minute to peruse canadasoccer.com I'm sure you may find what you are looking for.

Currently there are 3 large professional teams in Canada Toronto FC (MLS), Vancouver Whitecaps (MLS from 2011) and Montreal Impact (USSF D2 Pro, MLS from 2012). They all compete (independently in the Canadian Championship for the Voyageurs Cup, the winner of which gains Canada's place in the Concacaf Champions League.
I'm sure either of these teams could suffice unless now you're in Alberta and you have some deep seated "dur taking uurr oil" problems with Ontario, BC and Quebec.
Below this elite level there exists a National Championship where lower level teams compete on a provincial and then national basis. There must be one local team you can pick and support as your own and considering the level of the league maybe get involved with on some other level.

Supporting the EPL from Canada is not an excuse.

Yes, I live in Alberta, but no, I don't have any inferiority complex about Quebec, unlike most of the people here. I play for the best team in Alberta, we have won the national amateur championships here in Canada several times. The level of football here is terrible - even here, at the "top" level, we only train three times a week and even that's only during the very short summer season. Right now, most of the guys are knocking back hot dogs and drinking beer. The nearest "pro" team, if you can call it that, the Vancouver Whitecaps, are 1300km from where I live and their matches are on far too late in the evenings for me to watch them on television. Of course, their matches are not usually televised anyway. The MLS is the only "local" pro league in Canada or the United States but seeing as how I'm 4000km from places like New York and 2000km from Los Angeles, how can you blame me for supporting a league that is half the world away but a much much higher quality product?

[Colbert Report]

No team? Doubt that. If not, why not get off your a ss and start one?

And play against who? Myself? I live in a city of over one million people. The only city near me is 300km away. The next nearest city is 1300km away. Do you not have any grasp of North American geography? Pitiful. "Soccer", as they call it here, has proven itself time and time again not to be a viable commercial product in Canada and the United States. The MLS semi-finals were on this past weekend and I tried to watch them. Before you start knocking me for watching the EPL, I'd like to see you stick out four hours of that rubbish.

[BonnieShels]

Yes, I live in Alberta, but no, I don't have any inferiority complex about Quebec, unlike most of the people here. I play for the best team in Alberta, we have won the national amateur championships here in Canada several times. The level of football here is terrible - even here, at the "top" level, we only train three times a week and even that's only during the very short summer season. Right now, most of the guys are knocking back hot dogs and drinking beer. The nearest "pro" team, if you can call it that, the Vancouver Whitecaps, are 1300km from where I live and their matches are on far too late in the evenings for me to watch them on television. Of course, their matches are not usually televised anyway. The MLS is the only "local" pro league in Canada or the United States but seeing as how I'm 4000km from places like New York and 2000km from Los Angeles, how can you blame me for supporting a league that is half the world away but a much much higher quality product?

You've never, as far as I am aware ever mentioned any of that before. That changes the complexion of the argument. Watching any football is allowed but to be a flag waver for the EPL on a consistent basis especially on this site is bizarre and rather insulting to a lot of us who do indeed get off our asses and go to LOI games.
Also the detemining factor of "quality" is incredibly subjective.

[BonnieShels]

And play against who? Myself? I live in a city of over one million people. The only city near me is 300km away. The next nearest city is 1300km away. Do you not have any grasp of North American geography? Pitiful. "Soccer", as they call it here, has proven itself time and time again not to be a viable commercial product in Canada and the United States. The MLS semi-finals were on this past weekend and I tried to watch them. Before you start knocking me for watching the EPL, I'd like to see you stick out four hours of that rubbish.

Toronto and Seattle actually made a profit in 2009. When you say EPL though are you talking Top4? I'm sure a lot of what was on in the MLS this weekend easily beat Man****ty v ManYoo last Wednesday night. Only Sky and Barstoolers think that the EPL is the best league in the world.

[Colbert Report]

Toronto and Seattle actually made a profit in 2009. When you say EPL though are you talking Top4? I'm sure a lot of what was on in the MLS this weekend easily beat Man****ty v ManYoo last Wednesday night. Only Sky and Barstoolers think that the EPL is the best league in the world.

Toronto only made a profit because of the sweet deal they have on their stadium. Let's see if Seattle make a profit after their third or fourth year in the league.

Yes, the Man Utd/Man City match was terrible last Wednesday, I did watch it when I got home from work. However, I had a great time watching Sunderland beat Chelsea yesterday and was severly depressed when my once mighty Liverpool team were soundly beaten on Saturday.

Good on you for getting off your behind and getting out to watch the LOI, there's nothing wrong with that and I certainly did not mean to insult anyone on here with what I posted. In fairness, I did readily admit in my first post to being highly ignorant of the LOI and its apparent merits.

Quality is not as subjective a thing as you imply - I can definitely tell the difference between the MLS and the EPL. When I'm watching MLS, it's like they are playing with a different ball or something the way it just bounces wildly off player's feet. I was watching Beckham last night and even though I hate the guy and everything he stands or I had to admit that it really was men against boys, even though his team lost 3-0. Every time he got the ball he was picking out strikers who were in five to ten yards of space up the pitch. It must be very frustrating for him to play in such a Mickey Mouse league.

From everything I've read, and I could be wrong, the MLS is light years ahead of the LOI in terms of quality, organisation, and generating revenue. The LOI has a LONG way to go to re-capture the imagination of the Irish public. I grew up in Kildare and we were all massive football fans - I was born in 1983 so you can imagine the atmosphere regarding football at school when I was a child.

I can never, not even once, remember ANYONE mentioning ANYTHING about the LOI when I was a child. It was all Manchester United this and Aston Villa that. That's going to take decades to get over. Right now the LOI is simply not up to scratch and I fear that things are moving in the wrong direction.

[BonnieShels]

Quality is not as subjective a thing as you imply - I can definitely tell the difference between the MLS and the EPL. When I'm watching MLS, it's like they are playing with a different ball or something the way it just bounces wildly off player's feet.
Quality is subjective when you equate that with how much enjoyment you get out of something. I'll never say that the EPL is not of a general better quality that LOI but the enjoyment I get out of going to Tolka no matter how miserable the performance is exponentially more enjoyable than anything I ever experienced as a younger Man U fan.
Though nothing equates with watching Ireland.
Instead of watching Sunderland/Chelsea yesterday you could have gone onto rte.ie and checked out some of the quality football that Sligo played. Exceptional in a lot of cases and superior to the MSL.


I was watching Beckham last night and even though I hate the guy and everything he stands or I had to admit that it really was men against boys, even though his team lost 3-0. Every time he got the ball he was picking out strikers who were in five to ten yards of space up the pitch. It must be very frustrating for him to play in such a Mickey Mouse league.

The money and the lifestyle helps I'm sure.



From everything I've read, and I could be wrong, the MLS is light years ahead of the LOI in terms of quality, organisation, and generating revenue. The LOI has a LONG way to go to re-capture the imagination of the Irish public.

Until you watch both you can't really comment on a direct quality aspect of it.

The LOI has got a long way to go to capture the imagination alright. Let's hope yesterday was the start of it going on the right direction.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't want to start anything on here and I'll openly admit that I'm very ignorant when it comes to the LOI but I will say that it seems to me that the league doesn't contribute a whole lot to either the national team or the grassroots organisation of the sport in this country.

Before you all pop in going on about Kevin Doyle and Seamus Coleman, ask yourself, do you really think they wouldn't have gotten on with a League 2 club over in England and gone on to progress from there?
Ask Keith Fahey. It's not easy going to live in another country, particularly when it involves slogging it out for little money in a basement league. The few years Fahey spent at home allowed him to play in Europe, catching the eye of a few clubs along the way, and growing enough to be able to give it another shot abroad.


From the independent:

The FAI deserves credit too for reducing prices for today's Cup final and have reaped the reward with sales in excess of 30,000, a throwback to the days when football was an affordable lifeline for people who had time on their hands but little money.
Why did you have to quote a newspaper to say that?

[Colbert Report]

Ask Keith Fahey. It's not easy going to live in another country, particularly when it involves slogging it out for little money in a basement league. The few years Fahey spent at home allowed him to play in Europe, catching the eye of a few clubs along the way, and growing enough to be able to give it another shot abroad.


Why did you have to quote a newspaper to say that?

The same Keith Fahey that's only played two complete matches for Birmingham all season and only scored one goal? The same Keith Fahey that looked miles off the pace in the Slovakia match? I dont know why you are all so keen on him. Kevin Doyle is world class and hands down Ireland's best player in my opinion, and Seamus Coleman certainly looks like the next big star, but Fahey is just plain terrible everytime I've seen him play.

[Colbert Report]

Why did you have to quote a newspaper to say that?

Just stating fact, if I hadn't you would all be calling for a link and accusing me of hating the LOI and making up lies. I think it's great that thirty odd thousand people showed up for the FAI cup final yesterday, that's very surprising and restores my faith that maybe, just maybe, the sport might have a future in my country at the professional level. Just out of interest, anyone know how much the tickets actually were? Are we talking thirty or forty euro or are we talking five euro? If we're talking the former then that's a very, very big thing.