Republic of Ireland V Norway - Wednesday, 17th November 2010 - Friendly

[Stuttgart88]

I thought Ward looked ropey on MOTD. One very careless gift of possession to MU neraly resulted in a goal.

[Stuttgart88]

I know we cant allow every newcomer a 20 or 30 caps settling in period to become adjusted to International standard football. However.....Both Duff and McGeady have needed that amout of time to even start to show some level of consistency at this level.

Whats Green got at this stage, 6 or 7 caps? (perhaps 2 or 3 competitive). I think he has done ok, a few decent games and a few poor ones but Id be inclined to give him a little longer unless of course he simply cannot retain his place because we have other untested players who are simply going to walk in to the side and look comfortable against Macedonia home and away next year.Someone said that Green is a paradox in the Irish team. He gives the ball away more than anyone but a lot of our best attacks in Slovakia came when he won the ball high up the pitch. When he went off we created less.

[geysir]

Yeah, I've watched him twice for Derby this season and been impressed both times, but the international step up does seem a bridge too far for him, for me he hasnt even showed glimpses of what would be required to adapt at the level, never mind impress. Did he play a more advanced role for Derby? just behind a tall frontman?
Yeah, he plays a much more advanced midfield role for Derby, I see he has the joint highest nr of assists in that league with 6 assists.

[Kingdom]

Judging from some of the comments by Trap, he is probably gonna start with the majority of the regulars and then make wholesale changes aalong the way. I have to say I think that is pretty pointless now, unless he sees the celtic cup, Uruguay and the american games as enough of an opportunity to vet the pretenders then, as he only has Macedonia at home before the final run-in from June.

Killer was decent in Slovakia, but the connection between himself and Aiden mcGeady doesn't seem to be there, they aren't on the same wavelength, and I would like to see other players being tried in the position, regardless of if it's a newbee like Cunningham or Ward, or an established player such as Stephen Kelly.

Norway have had a decent start to their group, but they aren't going to be showing anything that we haven't seen before, and while it will be a decent test, they're not going to rip any debutants a new one, so it really is a good time to experiment. Wilson is worth a go in the middle of the pitch and I would definitely like to see Kevin Foley start at right back.
I absolutely detest the notion of giving someone a cap, in order for them to play some football. That is what their clubs are for. In the case of Shay, Westwood deserves a chance. Otherwise when is he gonna get the experience he needs if Shay is injured etc.

I'd like to see this (based on the squad he's picked):

--------------------------Westwood-------------------------
Foley ----------- O'Shea----------------Dunne-------Cunningham/Kelly

--------------Fahey & Wilson or Whelan & Gibson-----------------

Coleman-------------------McGeady----------------------Treacy

----------------------------Doyle----------------------------

with the likes of Hunt, Cunningham, O'Dea, and Walters getting some time in the second half.
I fear what we'll see is:

-------------------Given--------------
O'Shea-------Dunne Ledger------- Killer
Fahey--------Green Gibson------- Duff
------------ Doyle Keane -----------

with cameo's for treacy, folan, coleman, walters and cunningham. Westwood will probably get a half.

[paul_oshea]

I thought Ward looked ropey on MOTD. One very careless gift of possession to MU neraly resulted in a goal.

he should have closed down park for the second clearly he was in the wrong. i think trap has it right on this one. and so will mccarthy soon...

[Kingdom]

I thought Ward looked ropey on MOTD. One very careless gift of possession to MU neraly resulted in a goal.

I have to be honest, I think the clamour for him is more to do with a dearth of options for us, rather than spectacular performances by Stephen. I don't think he's particularily good at full back, particularily defensively, and I'd prefer Kelly there myself, purely for his defensive abilities. I think Steo has been tainted by the early mistake against Georgia last year, unfairly in my opinion.

It would be wrong to not have a look at Stephen Ward though. After all he's a regular (for a long time too) in a team in the PL for a 2nd year. Actually it would be foolish not to look at him.
The place is up for grabs though. Killer is on shaky ground, we just need someone to be aggresive enough to take the spot.

Height in the team is a factor that I've harped on about for at least 5 years now, and it's a primary reason Killer is there, as we've seen recently we're a small enough team; even if we have good springers, it's one thing getting in front of a big defending player, a different thing in front of a big attacking defender. Killer is brilliant at this aspect of the game in particular, and it's the main reason behind his prolonged stay of execution

[Kingdom]

Someone said that Green is a paradox in the Irish team. He gives the ball away more than anyone but a lot of our best attacks in Slovakia came when he won the ball high up the pitch. When he went off we created less.


That is the truth of it. We retained the ball far better when he went off, but we weren't as forthright when either. What this confirms to me is that he's a worse off version of Keith Andrews. Also Glenn Whelans performances have deteriorated alongside him, to the extent that he is on dodgy ground too, although consistent injury and poor tactics may be as much of a cause for concern with Glenn as anything else.

If we're being honest, McCarthy should be establishing himself as the man of our midfield, and leaving Whelan, Andrews and Wilson to battle it out for the other spot, with Green a way behind, particularily if Conor Clifford can continue to progress over the course of the campaign at club level/

[paul_oshea]

If you're saying Kilbane shouldn't be in the squad then you're way off.

As a general point - as with previous squads, the calls are all marginal at best. Personally I'd like to see Stokes in, others Ward, maybe Maguire or whoever, but no one who's been omitted has made a cast-iron case for inclusion. The only one would be the unfortunately crocked McCarthy and it seems obvious by now he's very much in the manager's plans.

We do have the opportunity to see new faces - possible (actually, probable) debuts for Coleman, Wilson and Walters; opportunities for the likes of Foley, Kelly and Cunningham to make a claim; the chance for Fahey, Long and McGeady to kick on for encouraging performances in Zilina; the welcome return of Duff and Hunt.

Whether or not some of these guys are 'brand new' isn't the point. There's plenty to interest any Irish fan on how many of these guys perform. Just looking at the squad there's appears an abundance of options compared to even a month ago.

feature, as in game time.

[paul_oshea]

Does that mean you accept Charlie's post about Coleman making the squad or are you trying to make another point?

Natural attrition of injury will reduce the squad to at least 23.

well going on previous squads probably.

I agree with his point, but coleman was already selected in a possible 23 or 24, if you consider squad + cover. IM assuming though he will be kept in the actual 22 this time.

[geysir]

Actually, the statistics don't support the opinion that Green gives the ball away more than anyone.

In each of the games, he had his dodgy moments, adjusted and improved, I'd say in all probability he has a 75%/80% success rate with his passes.
His weakness is his first touch.
Without Green on the pitch against Slovakia we were weaker - more vulnerable through CM. It is astonishing that this has not been observed/admitted.
The first player to replace at CM is Whelan, he is showing all the symptoms of a player whose game has deteriorated because of a lack of first team football.

[Junior]

Do you have the stats geysir? Id tend to agree with your post, was just looking to see where it is substantiated though.

[Kingdom]

[QUOTE]Actually, the statistics don't support the opinion that Green gives the ball away more than anyone. To be fair, and I'm really not trying to start an argument, but you might as well put "FACT!" beside this point, because it's an opinion more than anything else really? Unless of course you present them, and I'll accept that 100%



In each of the games, he had his dodgy moments, adjusted and improved, I'd say in all probability he has a 75%/80% success rate with his passes.

I would debate that strongly, but without any evidence to back it up. That said I did rewatch the Russia game (3times) and Slovakia game, specifially to look at McGeady's performance, and in the case of the Russia game, broke down how many times he used the ball, how many times he lost it, and how well he actually played, but it cut no ice on this forum, despite being backed up by evidence.


His weakness is his first touch.

Again to be fair, that's probably the worst weakness for a central midfielder to have! At least Whelan's weakness is his lack of pace.


Without Green on the pitch against Slovakia we were weaker - more vulnerable through CM. It is astonishing that this has not been observed/admitted.
We weren't as combative I would describe as being more accurate, something both myself and Stuttgart acknowledged openly and positively. I think that had more to do with certain posters wanting certain players to be doing well i.e Gibson>Green.


The first player to replace at CM is Whelan, he is showing all the symptoms of a player whose game has deteriorated because of a lack of first team football.
I disagree, and would acknowledge that it might be biased for having a fondness for Whelan, but I'd have Green out of the squad completely, whereas I'd be happy for Whelan to be a squad member.

[CraftyToePoke]

His weakness is his first touch

Id go along with that, but its not to much a weakness as a total lack of one on several occasions, very frustrating to see our player at that level so exposed on that front. I was cringing each time I saw it coming his way against Russia after his first few times on it.

[paul_oshea]

Actually, the statistics don't support the opinion that Green gives the ball away more than anyone.

In each of the games, he had his dodgy moments, adjusted and improved, I'd say in all probability he has a 75%/80% success rate with his passes.
His weakness is his first touch.
Without Green on the pitch against Slovakia we were weaker - more vulnerable through CM. It is astonishing that this has not been observed/admitted.
The first player to replace at CM is Whelan, he is showing all the symptoms of a player whose game has deteriorated because of a lack of first team football.

I did think in slovakia, he was doing well and we lost the ball in the middle for longer periods of time when he went off.

I also thought he lost the ball quite a lot, but he won it originally to lose it again, which at least means we had the ball more often than normal, and for longer.

I did also say this at the time and agreed with you geysir, if that makes the "observed/admitted" any more positive.

[SwanVsDalton]

feature, as in game time.

Fair nuff, wasn't as clear from original post.


I disagree, and would acknowledge that it might be biased for having a fondness for Whelan, but I'd have Green out of the squad completely, whereas I'd be happy for Whelan to be a squad member.

Agree with this. It's not simply a question of form - Whelan has proven himself to be an asset at international level even if he isn't playing well. Green has yet to prove anything.

[Kingdom]

Agree with this. It's not simply a question of form - Whelan has proven himself to be an asset at international level even if he isn't playing well. Green has yet to prove anything.

That's my thinking of it exactly. Whelan has shown himself to be competent alongside a good midfielder, Stephen Reid, quite good alongside a decent midfielder, Keith Andrews. So it's not like he's been shocking for a long time. What he does isn't spectacular, he offers an outlet for the short ball for the full back, and an out ball for the wingers, when they're tight, and regularily does that well. We know he can hit a ball. So he would always get my vote over Paul green. I don't bear any ill-will against Green, I just don't think he's good enough

[Charlie Darwin]

What he does isn't spectacular, he offers an outlet for the short ball for the full back, and an out ball for the wingers, when they're tight, and regularily does that well.
Actually, I'd say that's exactly what he doesn't do.

[Kingdom]

Ah but he does CD, it's not his fault if they choose to lump it up instead of utilising him :-)

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd say it's a team effort to be honest. John O'Shea passes the ball inside all the time in the Premier League, but then again he has Scholes or Fletcher screaming at him every time he gets the ball. Showing yourself isn't really enough at this level.

[Lenny82]

Apparently Keane is to go for a scan for an injury picked up in training at Spurs. Any word on when Folan is expected to be fit? If both were to withdraw, would he call Stokes or Sheridan up? Anyone any idea on how Sheridan has been doing lately?

[tommy_c12000]

Apparently Keane is to go for a scan for an injury picked up in training at Spurs. Any word on when Folan is expected to be fit? If both were to withdraw, would he call Stokes or Sheridan up? Anyone any idea on how Sheridan has been doing lately?

Sheridan has been an unused sub for the last 2 games (one league and one Europa league game) and he came on as a sub in the game before that. Overall this year he has made 8 appearances for CSKA with 3 goals. Don't think he is setting the world alight by any means after a promising start. But then again I have never seen CSKA Sofia play a full game so I'm purely speculating on raw data. He certainly doesn't warrant a place ahead of Stokes in my opinion

http://www.soccerway.com/teams/bulgaria/pfc-cska-sofia/

[geysir]

To be fair, and I'm really not trying to start an argument, but you might as well put "FACT!" beside this point, because it's an opinion more than anything else really? Unless of course you present them, and I'll accept that 100%
There is very little to argue against :)
The first half of the game against Russia is a no brainer with the midfield stats, Whelan was just about invisible and Green's involvement I have already given account in that post match chat. Against Slovakia for the 40 minutes he was on, approx Green gave away possession 4 times and completed 16 passes.
That is a meaningless stat because it does not tell the type of pass completed or the danger from the missed passes. Glen was guilty of the worst missed pass in the first half as well as the sloppy defending for their goal. To look at the other aspects of the CM role, re Green's positioning - I'd give 8/10; for his covering of a Slovak player I´d give 9/10. For his mobility I´d give 8/10, in fact he was everywhere and yet he did not leave a gap on the right side. He won 4 headers, made 5 successful attempts at harrying and won 2 tackles and a free.


Again to be fair, that's probably the worst weakness for a central midfielder to have! At least Whelan's weakness is his lack of pace.
Glen has lost a lot more since losing his place on the Stoke team. He is less mobile, crucially he is a few fractions more sluggish and his alertness has dropped. Greens weak first touch was far from being our weakness, he lost the ball because of it - well outside the danger area - on 2 occasions.


We weren't as combative I would describe as being more accurate, something both myself and Stuttgart acknowledged openly and positively. I think that had more to do with certain posters wanting certain players to be doing well i.e Gibson>Green.
If you observe the actual amount of work done by Green in the first half, you may just see the main reason why we were less combative and less effective after he went off.


would acknowledge that it might be biased for having a fondness for Whelan, but I'd have Green out of the squad completely, whereas I'd be happy for Whelan to be a squad member.
We are playing with 2 CM in a defined role at CM so it's no use to be thinking of playing Fahey there. ATM, there is only Wilson in competition for one of the starting CM spots. Whelan has the advantage - proven himself in the past but he has seriously gone off the boil this season. Against Russia and Slovakia, Green was, by a country mile, the more effective of that CM pair.

[rebelmusic]

Lets be fair Geysir - Whelan was shocking, Green was a fraction better. We simply had no midfield in either of those matches.

[ifk101]

"made 5 successful attempts at harrying"

:bigsmile:

Where are you pulling these stats from?

[Fixer82]

When is Keith Andrews due back?

[Colbert Report]

When is Keith Andrews due back?

K Andrews Groin Strain 13th Nov 10

http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/epl_injury_table.php?SKEY=6c73a06f331d5db3980b480e 6179b5f6

[Supreme feet]

It's such a pity Meyler and McCarthy have been injured. We don't necessarily need to change the formation, or take the risk of putting lightweight, attack-minded players in the centre of midfield; we just need players who can do the simple midfield things right at international level. In the few games that Steven Reid played under Trap, a lot of play went through midfield, and we actually passed the ball quite well. With Meyler and McCarthy in there, we'd have a good blend of aggression, presence and basic passing ability. Whelan and Andrews can do it in one-off games when in form, but don't really have the natural talent to do it consistently, while the less said about Green the better. The two younger lads have the natural talent to excel in Trapattoni's set-up, and it's no coincidence that they were both called up in May. Question remains; will he still pick them in February? I'm 'glass-half-full' when it comes to Trap, but if he ignores the two lads when they're fully fit, I'll be very disappointed with him. Central midfield needs urgent reconstruction.

[Kingdom]

There is very little to argue against :)
The first half of the game against Russia is a no brainer with the midfield stats, Whelan was just about invisible and Green's involvement I have already given account in that post match chat.

There was good discussion (if not here, then on ybig) about the Whelan/Green axis vs Russia. One viewpoint, the obvious one, was thet Whelan didn't work at all, and that Green was doing the harrying in addition to the tactics being wrong.
An alternate view was that Green's breaking of the bank of 4 (narrow as it was due to the wingers coming infield) left Whelan isolated and unable to counter the flow of Denisov, Shirakov and Ziryanov (It was described as the Whelan Triangle somewhere). I would agree with it to an extent, but I've admitted that perhaps I'm biased in Whelan's favour.


Against Slovakia for the 40 minutes he was on, approx Green gave away possession 4 times and completed 16 passes.
That is a meaningless stat because it does not tell the type of pass completed or the danger from the missed passes. Glen was guilty of the worst missed pass in the first half as well as the sloppy defending for their goal. To look at the other aspects of the CM role, re Green's positioning - I'd give 8/10; for his covering of a Slovak player I´d give 9/10. For his mobility I´d give 8/10, in fact he was everywhere and yet he did not leave a gap on the right side. He won 4 headers, made 5 successful attempts at harrying and won 2 tackles and a free.
Fair play Geysir, you did the research and the stats to back up your argument, I appreciate that. We acknowledge that Slovakia were more prominent when he went off, even if our ball retention improved.


Glen has lost a lot more since losing his place on the Stoke team. He is less mobile, crucially he is a few fractions more sluggish and his alertness has dropped. Greens weak first touch was far from being our weakness, he lost the ball because of it - well outside the danger area - on 2 occasions.
I agree with this, I just didn't communicate that well enough, using "pace" incorrectly.


If you observe the actual amount of work done by Green in the first half, you may just see the main reason why we were less combative and less effective after he went off.



We are playing with 2 CM in a defined role at CM so it's no use to be thinking of playing Fahey there. ATM, there is only Wilson in competition for one of the starting CM spots. Whelan has the advantage - proven himself in the past but he has seriously gone off the boil this season. Against Russia and Slovakia, Green was, by a country mile, the more effective of that CM pair.

In terms of a 442, yes I agree with Fahey not being suitable for the role of our 2 Cm's. I disagree that only Marc Wilson is in the hunt for a spot. I fully believe McCarthy is our boy wonder and is capable of filling that role. David Meyler looks like he would also be able to do it, albeit he's slightly 'greener' than McCarthy. Add to them the existing triumvirate of Whelan Andrews & Green (even if I wouldn't have him there) and there are options.

Now, if you were to say that Fahey couldn't play in a CM x 2 in a 4-2-3-1 formation I would disagree with that perhaps. If we were to less rigid, there is scope to play what people refer to as a "quarterback", as part of the 2 - Pirlo being a good example. You don't have to throw yourself into tackles to be a good centre midfielder. Sure it helps, but with good positioning or reading you can be just as effective. Just look at Xabi Alonso.


Fair play Geysir, enjoying those posts.

[geysir]

In terms of a 442, yes I agree with Fahey not being suitable for the role of our 2 Cm's. I disagree that only Marc Wilson is in the hunt for a spot. I fully believe McCarthy is our boy wonder and is capable of filling that role. David Meyler looks like he would also be able to do it, albeit he's slightly 'greener' than McCarthy. Add to them the existing triumvirate of Whelan Andrews & Green (even if I wouldn't have him there) and there are options.

Now, if you were to say that Fahey couldn't play in a CM x 2 in a 4-2-3-1 formation I would disagree with that perhaps. If we were to less rigid, there is scope to play what people refer to as a "quarterback", as part of the 2 - Pirlo being a good example. You don't have to throw yourself into tackles to be a good centre midfielder. Sure it helps, but with good positioning or reading you can be just as effective. Just look at Xabi Alonso.

I did write, ATM Wilson is the only competition for a starting place at CM. I mean't specifically for this upcoming game.
In many minds, McCarthy (recovery permitting) is good enough and Meyler's recovery will be interesting. Trap atm, sees a possibility for McCarthy to play in front of a lone striker. I think, once McCarthy gets his chance in a friendly, he will show enough that he can fit into the CM role.

On Fahey, atm I can't see Trap using him at CM, I haven't seen enough of him to have an opinion about whether he could or not.

[geysir]

"made 5 successful attempts at harrying"

:bigsmile:

Where are you pulling these stats from?
Football statistic = A fact or piece of data from a study of the game.
In this context "harrying" refers to the action of closing down an opponent. Green applied himself so diligently to the task, that "harrying" is a good verb to use to describe the action.

[theworm2345]

Football statistic = A fact or piece of data from a study of the game.
In this context "harrying" refers to the action of closing down an opponent. Green applied himself so diligently to the task, that "harrying" is a good verb to use to describe the action.
I think the word is "harrowing"

[ifk101]

Football statistic = A fact or piece of data from a study of the game.
In this context "harrying" refers to the action of closing down an opponent. Green applied himself so diligently to the task, that "harrying" is a good verb to use to describe the action.

So they are your own stats then?

[boovidge]

I think the word is "harrowing"

I find paul green's presence in the midfield quite harrowing.

[theworm2345]

I find paul green's presence in the midfield quite harrowing.
Yes thats what I meant

[Alf Honn]

Trap atm, sees a possibility for McCarthy to play in front of a lone striker.

This is a complete smokescreen by Trap. He doesn't do one 'behind or in front of the striker.'

Apart from Bari when he dropped Keane in behind Folan and Doyle after Italy went down to ten and we were chasing the game, it's been the rigid 4-4-2 throughout including every friendlies.

Jaysus, he was spinning the media a line about using Andy Reid 'behind the striker' for the Poland game a few years back and then axed him completely from the squad. He even mentioned Stephen Baldy as a possible in this role when it was 50/50 of him coming back, in his words.

[paul_oshea]

There is a great love in going on in these posts :D

Alf Honn, you could be onto something alright. Time will only tell, but id be leaning to the right on this.

[Predator]

This is a complete smokescreen by Trap. The great Italian pantomime.
To be honest, I think Trapattoni simply sees 4-4-2 as the best system for the players at his disposal. We can't afford to drop one striker in order to adopt a 4-5-1 formation when Keane and Doyle are among our best players.

[SkStu]

this harrying conversation has given me the best laugh on here in ages!

"5 successful attempts at harrying"

:D :D :D

[Crosby87]

Yes Alf Honn is back, where have ye been? Ger Crossley and Alf Honn are the two best Irish names.

[Alf Honn]

Yes Alf Honn is back, where have ye been? Ger Crossley and Alf Honn are the two best Irish names.

Never went away you know, Crosby, just some pre-winter hibernation. Humbled to be named in same breath as the legendery Mr. Crossley.

[Closed Account]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1112/ireland.html
Keane, McShane and Folan ruled out (Clark in pending FIFA clearance)
Final Squad

Shay Given,
Keiren Westwood,

John O'Shea,
Seamus Coleman,
Richard Dunne,
Sean St. Ledger,
Greg Cunningham,
Kevin Foley,
Kevin Kilbane,
Stephen Kelly,
Darren O'Dea,

Marc Wilson,
Darron Gibson,
Ciaran Clark,
Glenn Whelan,
Paul Green,
Liam Lawrence,
Stephen Hunt,
Aiden McGeady,
Keith Treacy,
Damien Duff,
Keith Fahey,

Jonathan Walters,
Kevin Doyle,
Shane Long.

[Sullivinho]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1112/ireland.html
Keane, McShane and Folan ruled out (Clark in pending FIFA clearance)

We should see a bit of Long and Walters then.

[SwanVsDalton]

We should see a bit of Long and Walters then.

Sounds like a 1960's comedy double act.

[SkStu]

Sounds like a 1960's comedy double act.

or almost like a 90's band from Cork...

[AlaskaFox]

Will Stokes or Sheridan be called up now?

[Charlie Darwin]

I doubt it. It'll be two from Doyle, Long and Walters, with McGeady also able to play behind a striker.

[Stuttgart88]

Can't say I'm unhappy that any of those is out. We can try a new pairing upfront which is no harm. Long's last game and a half really excited me. Doyle looked superb against Arsenal on MOTD.

[rebelmusic]

The lack of strikers in that squad is frankly scary. The fact that he wont call up the likes of Stokes, Sheridan, Cox, Sammon...even just for the fecking training sessions.

[Predator]

Up front isn't exactly a problem area for us though; injuries notwithstanding, we'll ideally have Keane and Doyle starting competitive games and we have plenty of back-up in Long, Sheridan, Stokes, Folan, Best - all of whom have experienced Trap's tactics. What Trapattoni wants and needs, is a consistent set of performers who know and understand his system. Walters, a new face, will now more than likely get a longer game alongside Doyle and/or Long, which can only be a good thing. Trapattoni knows what Sheridan and Stokes have to offer and can call upon them if and when required.

The problem areas, as I see it, are in defence and centre midfield. In defence, with respect to Kilbane, we're looking for a proper left back and a reliable back-up/option in centre half. Trap has invested a lot of faith in Cunningham and now that he's playing regularly at a relatively high level, perhaps he can make the left-back position his own. Since O'Dea is just returning from injury, perhaps Clark will feature in defence. He might even pop up in midfield. Wilson could do the same.

The thing that I'm looking forward to, is seeing who plays at right back. Presumably O'Shea will start, so that leaves Foley, Kelly and Coleman. I'm also anticipating the return of Hunt, but we're coming down with wingers.

[AlaskaFox]

The lack of strikers in that squad is frankly scary. The fact that he wont call up the likes of Stokes, Sheridan, Cox, Sammon...even just for the fecking training sessions.

I'd love Sammon to get a call-up, at least to acknowledge his form.