2010 Licences

[micls]

Shocked that this happened.

On the deflection of blame to the consortium:
There's very straightforward reasons why the consortium will only buy in the case of a premier licence. Why would a businessman, Grey, but 300k into debt of a first division club when there could be a debt free first division club run by one of his partners in the consortium in the league if he didnt. He could then look to invest in that (no guarantees obviously).

It simply wouldnt make business sense to anybody.

The consortium did not force the FAI to make this decision, if the FAI had denied a licence FORAS would have continued with the first division and the 2 lads would have walked away, not overly upset Id imagine.

This decision was the FAI's and the FAI's only.

[pineapple stu]

The extension of that logic is that you've bought promotion for E300k (or E500k or whatever) though.

Why would you put E300k into a company when you could start off debt free?

[micls]

Its 2 seperate things really.

There's us: FORAS And the 2 businessmen

For us its basically as I outlined on the other thread. a chance to save our club and buy into it.

For them it's a business opportunity. Both are owed money by the club as it stands, if the club is liquidated they stand to lose 250k between them so thats one reason they dont want that to happen.

They also believe a premier team with Europe can trade out of the debt and that they can make the clubs sustainable.

[Battery Rover]

If you can't afford a CPO, you're straight out of the running for a Premier licence.

I dont recall CPO being on the application form this season. I know there was a full time general manager

[Battery Rover]

Ramblers applied for a Premier Licence as I'd assume every other club in last years first and prem, bar Kildare, did!

We only applied for a first.

[pineapple stu]

I dont recall CPO being on the application form this season. I know there was a full time general manager
Interesting; thanks.


For them it's a business opportunity. Both are owed money by the club as it stands, if the club is liquidated they stand to lose 250k between them so thats one reason they dont want that to happen.

They also believe a premier team with Europe can trade out of the debt and that they can make the clubs sustainable.
But they could save the club, be relegated and still be owed the money. What's the harm in that?

Are Cork allowed play in Europe this year? (Genuinely have no idea)

You'll forgive my scepticism over the idea that the investors think the club can become profitable and trade out of debt. Rarely a good phrase to hear from outside investors.

[tiktok]

Yeah but with no income you'd be docked points for going over the 65%

Seeing as we're talking hypotheticals

If we're going to get walkovers every game, why would we sign any players? We'd be well under the 65% protocol.

[Dodge]

The consortium did not force the FAI to make this decision, if the FAI had denied a licence FORAS would have continued with the first division and the 2 lads would have walked away, not overly upset Id imagine.

This decision was the FAI's and the FAI's only.

Slightly disengenious there. By informing the FAI that they'd only be willing to save the club if a premier license is obtained, they, at the very least, tried to influence the decision

That the FAI fell for it shouldn't absolve the proposed new owners from the charges being levelled at them today. Some of the same charges which FORAS and others levelled at TNB...

As for European football, that is by no means a foregone conclusion if a premier license is obtained. UEFA have far stricter financial criteria than the FAI

[micls]

But they could save the club, be relegated and still be owed the money. What's the harm in that?
Smaller gates and income means longer to trade out of the debt. Very difficult division to get promoted out of too.

And the other option is on the table of the debt free club in the same division




Are Cork allowed play in Europe this year? (Genuinely have no idea)
Ive no idea either tbh



You'll forgive my scepticism over the idea that the investors think the club can become profitable and trade out of debt. Rarely a good phrase to hear from outside investors.

In fairness to them, they mean over a long period of time and it would be a max of 200k debt according to the deal. One of them has made it clear he'd be willing to sell his shares to recoup his money so thats whats in it for him. Again harder to do with a first division club

Theyre not talking in terms of making loads of money or anything.

Of course I understand the skepticism but I also understand where the 2 lads are coming from.

[Celdrog]

If we're going to get walkovers every game, why would we sign any players? We'd be well under the 65% protocol.Fair point - we'll make the sacrifice and play you at home twice;)

[John83]

The extension of that logic is that you've bought promotion for E300k (or E500k or whatever) though.
It's not even as simple as that - if this had gone through two months ago, sure, but now their squad won't be what it could be.


Why would you put E300k into a company when you could start off debt free?
The only tangible benefit (aside from being in the Premier and the attending extra cash) might be good will from creditors who don't get screwed by the club folding.

[pineapple stu]

Smaller gates and income means longer to trade out of the debt. Very difficult division to get promoted out of too.
That's kind of your tough though; that's just what happens in football. If Bray offer E300k, can they play in the Premier too cos they don't feel like playing in the First?


It's not even as simple as that - if this had gone through two months ago, sure, but now their squad won't be what it could be.
Yep, I agree. I think it's the principle of the thing though.


The only tangible benefit (aside from being in the Premier and the attending extra cash) might be good will from creditors who don't get screwed by the club folding.
Mine was a kind of counter-rhetorical question to micls' original.

[micls]

That's kind of your tough though; that's just what happens in football. If Bray offer E300k, can they play in the Premier too cos they don't feel like playing in the First?

Again though, that's a decision for the FAI not for the lads.

As I said, if the FAI denied the licence last night there'd have been no big fuss about it. The lads(and us) are putting the option on the table, it's down to the FAI after that.

[pineapple stu]

I agree with Dodge's post though, where he says that Quintas/FORAS shouldn't have been putting pressure on the FAI's decision.

[micls]

I agree with Dodge's post though, where he says that Quintas/FORAS shouldn't have been putting pressure on the FAI's decision.

So we shouldnt offer to buy the club in case the FAI have to actually grow a pair for once?

We put the offer in Saturday. If Tom had accepted then, they revenue and creditors would have been paid Monday and the FAI might have gotten away with the fudge.

After Toms antics NO ONE expected the FAI to defer it. Not us, or Grey or O Connell. We all expected the FAI to deny the licence.

They didnt, their call.

[pineapple stu]

So we shouldnt offer to buy the club in case the FAI have to actually grow a pair for once?
I think it could be argued that FORAS have tainted their image by putting pressure on the FAI not to relegate them by saying that people will only get paid wages they're owed if Cork get a Premier licence. There was nothing stopping you from taking over the club without that clause.

If you'd paid your creditors on Monday, you should still have been relegated as CCIFL didn't submit a licence application on time.

If you all expected the licence to be denied, why make that proviso so public? (Again, not a rhetorical question as I genuinely don't know)

[Dodge]

So we shouldnt offer to buy the club in case the FAI have to actually grow a pair for once?

We put the offer in Saturday. If Tom had accepted then, they revenue and creditors would have been paid Monday and the FAI might have gotten away with the fudge.

After Toms antics NO ONE expected the FAI to defer it. Not us, or Grey or O Connell. We all expected the FAI to deny the licence.

Well we're talkinga botu what ifs, IF you made your offer unconditional on the Premier license, you could've still paid off creditors and not ****ed off the rest of the league. There was obviously some thought that the FAI would not deny your license, as why mention it at all if it was a foregone conclusion

But you chose your own path, just like TNB chose his.

[micls]

I think it could be argued that FORAS have tainted their image by putting pressure on the FAI not to relegate them by saying that people will only get paid wages they're owed if Cork get a Premier licence. There was nothing stopping you from taking over the club without that clause.

If you'd paid your creditors on Monday, you should still have been relegated as CCIFL didn't submit a licence application on time.

If you all expected the licence to be denied, why make that proviso so public? (Again, not a rhetorical question as I genuinely don't know)

It was Coughlan who made the proviso public first not the consortium. He tried to claim the FAI had to give him a licence for the deal to go ahead when what the consortium were looking for was control of the club before the licencing deadline in order to try to make a case for a premier licence.

The consortiums statements about it were to counteract Coughlans


Well we're talkinga botu what ifs, IF you made your offer unconditional on the Premier license, you could've still paid off creditors and not ****ed off the rest of the league. There was obviously some thought that the FAI would not deny your license, as why mention it at all if it was a foregone conclusion

But you chose your own path, just like TNB chose his.

The consortium expected to get a licence if the debts were all paid before yesterday, as the punishments range from 15k fine to losing the licence.
They didnt expect to get one when this wasnt sorted yesterday.

Yes, its been made clear the 2 lads are only interested in buying if there's a premier licence and that's their choice.

That should not affect licences being given out though. The FAI are charged with making these decisions and they should make them based on whats in front of them, not possibilities.

I thought and still think that last nights decision was a farce but I dont see how the blame is the consortiums. Again, it's the FAi's call. The consortium is obviously going to do whats best for itself and each member will do whats best for himself. Its the FAI who are supposed to do whats best for the while league.

[micls]

I think it could be argued that FORAS have tainted their image by putting pressure on the FAI not to relegate them by saying that people will only get paid wages they're owed if Cork get a Premier licence. There was nothing stopping you from taking over the club without that clause.


Em, yes there was. we dont have the funding to do it ourselves and that clause was the 2 lads.

[pineapple stu]

You could have started off in the First with the licence FORAS applied for.

[micls]

You could have started off in the First with the licence FORAS applied for.

This is where things get messy. People have very strong feelings on our name, history etc and most city fans will do everything in their power to save this if possible.

That is why the FORAS application was always a back up.

Were still in a position to take it up if necessary but weve always said if theres a chance to save the current entity, the jobs, not screw over the creditors etc that we'd do everything we could to do that first.

[Dodge]

Yes, its been made clear the 2 lads are only interested in buying if there's a premier licence and that's their choice.

That should not affect licences being given out though. The FAI are charged with making these decisions and they should make them based on whats in front of them, not possibilities.

I thought and still think that last nights decision was a farce but I dont see how the blame is the consortiums. Again, it's the FAi's call. The consortium is obviously going to do whats best for itself and each member will do whats best for himself. Its the FAI who are supposed to do whats best for the while league.
Again, its, at best, disingenious to try and suggest that the "clause" in the offer was made public in the interest of clarity, and not in the interests of blackmailing the league

You even admit as much later on in your post. I also find it funny that you think the new owners should do everything in their own interests, yet you expect TNB to act in the greater good of Cork football

YOu can't have it everyway...

[micls]

Again, its, at best, disingenious to try and suggest that the "clause" in the offer was made public in the interest of clarity, and not in the interests of blackmailing the league
I said it was made public by coughlan, not the consortium


You even admit as much later on in your post. I also find it funny that you think the new owners should do everything in their own interests, yet you expect TNB to act in the greater good of Cork football

The only group I expect to act in the greater good of cork football is the fans. I lost faith a long time ago than anyone else cares about it.
I expect nothing from TNB though some common decency to people wouldnt go amiss.

Look tbh this argument is all a bit irrelevant. FORAS are going to do what we think is best for the club.
The FAI should be doing what's best for the league.
And fans of every club, including ours, are rightly ****ed off at last night farce.

None of those opinions are going to change. If people want to blame the consortium, fair enough. At this stage Im so sick of the lot of it I dont care

Edit: That last line sounded very much like throwing toys out of a pram. Thats not what I meant, Im actually just too exhausted from it to argue :)

[pineapple stu]

This is where things get messy. People have very strong feelings on our name, history etc and most city fans will do everything in their power to save this if possible.

Were still in a position to take it up if necessary but weve always said if theres a chance to save the current entity, the jobs, not screw over the creditors etc that we'd do everything we could to do that first.
The new club could have voluntarily taken on the debts of the old club.

You can buy the name back easily enough. I don't think history ceases with a new company, or else ye'd all be waving 1994 flags. It's absolutely not ideal, but I think it's better than putting pressure on the FAI to, effectively, give ye a Premier spot at Bray's expense.

[jebus]

Micls I think what Dodge and Stu are trying to say is that FORAS can of course act in the best interests of Cork City FC but that by taking this route you shouldn't expect any of the rest of us to have any form of goodwill towards you, something which has been there really all along (not by all, but by most I feel). You can spin it whatever way you want but what they are saying, and I agree with them, is that FORAS and the investors are pretty much just telling the FAI that if they don't put CCFC in the Premier then a lot of money that is owed to quite a few people will go unpaid, that's at the very least putting unacceptable pressure on the FAI to loosen the rules even further for Cork.

Again, no one expects you to do anything outside of protect Cork City FC, but just don't expect the rest of us to give you a round of applause for it

[micls]

The new club could have voluntarily taken on the debts of the old club.
There's no way we could afford it. Wed be wound up in months.


You can buy the name back easily enough.
That would be the plan but theres no guarantee you wouldnt be outbid for it.

I don't think history ceases with a new company, or else ye'd all be waving 1994 flags.
Its messy but again that would be the idea if it came to it.

It's absolutely not ideal, but I think it's better than putting pressure on the FAI to, effectively, give ye a Premier spot at Bray's expense.

Our members felt the deal on the table on Friday was a better option to explore first.

And again i dont accept it was putting pressure on the FAI, I think the FAI had a decision to make, if after that decision was made the deal was still a goer(i.e. they awarded a premier) then great and if not we had option B. As is on our forum, it was said that the FAI had said the only thing missing from the licence application was the financials i.e. creditors sorted so thats the basis the decision was made on, that wed be sorting this.

That was how our members viewed it.

But again, we're probably not going to agree on this.

[pineapple stu]

There's no way we could afford it. Wed be wound up in months.
it's reasonably common for companies which go into liquidation and which start again to make an informal commitment - to which they're not legally binding - to repay the debts. So long as you chip away at them, you'd still have community goodwill, and nobody could seek a winding-up order. You'd be taking on the debts of another company; they're not your debts technically, so you couldn't be wound up for them.

[micls]

Micls I think what Dodge and Stu are trying to say is that FORAS can of course act in the best interests of Cork City FC but that by taking this route you shouldn't expect any of the rest of us to have any form of goodwill towards you, something which has been there really all along (not by all, but by most I feel). You can spin it whatever way you want but what they are saying, and I agree with them, is that FORAS and the investors are pretty much just telling the FAI that if they don't put CCFC in the Premier then a lot of money that is owed to quite a few people will go unpaid, that's at the very least putting unacceptable pressure on the FAI to loosen the rules even further for Cork.

Again, no one expects you to do anything outside of protect Cork City FC, but just don't expect the rest of us to give you a round of applause for it

Jebus, without wanting to sound smart about it, I honestly dont care what anyone outside thinks of us or our decisions.

Im simply trying to explain how and why this decision was made. As I tried to explain in the above post our members did not think we were pressuring the FAI into anything, we were more than happy to accept the FAI's decision whatever that was. That decision would send us down one of two routes, both of which we were preparing for.

There are differing views on it, and again that's fair enough.

[micls]

it's reasonably common for companies which go into liquidation and which start again to make an informal commitment - to which they're not legally binding - to repay the debts. So long as you chip away at them, you'd still have community goodwill, and nobody could seek a winding-up order. You'd be taking on the debts of another company; they're not your debts technically, so you couldn't be wound up for them.

Oh ok. I dunno tbh this isn't something that has been discussed at any stage yet and would probably be one for discussion if we did get a first division licence.

[jebus]

Jebus, without wanting to sound smart about it, I honestly dont care what anyone outside thinks of us or our decisions.

Im simply trying to explain how and why this decision was made. As I tried to explain in the above post our members did not think we were pressuring the FAI into anything, we were more than happy to accept the FAI's decision whatever that was. That decision would send us down one of two routes, both of which we were preparing for.

There are differing views on it, and again that's fair enough.

See that would be alright if FORAS hasn't been peddling things like Last Man Standing to fans of other clubs based on some form of solidarity among LoI supporters. You lot seemed to care what we thought of you when you wanted our support but you obviously don't care now you have shown you are willing to go into business for yourselves to get what you want at yet more League of Ireland expense. This is all based on how I view the situation of course but from now on FORAS can basically do one when it comes to asking for our support.

[micls]

See that would be alright if FORAS hasn't been peddling things like Last Man Standing to fans of other clubs based on some form of solidarity among LoI supporters. You lot seemed to care what we thought of you when you wanted our support but you obviously don't care now you have shown you are willing to go into business for yourselves to get what you want at yet more League of Ireland expense. This is all based on how I view the situation of course but from now on FORAS can basically do one when it comes to asking for our support.

I was the one peddling LMS and I was peddling it on the basis that its a fun game you can win money out more than anything, a Dundalk fan won 3 of them.

Bohs also peddle LMS, are people signing up to that out of solidarity to Bohs? They are yeah.

Our aims are on our website, they're very clear and straightforward. We are trying to fulfil them and that was why the proposal was voted through the other night.

Funny that all this anger only appeared after the FAI bottled it rather than when it was first agreed?

We are fans, trying to get some say in our club one way or another. We are not the FAI, we do not make the decisions on licencing. We were told all that was missing from the licence was the money being paid (again we didnt decide this, the FAI did) and we tried to ensure this money was paid in time.

It wasnt, through no fault of ours. we expected the licence to be denied, again it wasnt. None of that was in our hands.

Im gonna leave it there, Im going around in circles and no ones gonna change their minds.

[micls]

Just reading over my last few posts. I didnt mean to sound like were ungrateful for the support we have gotten. We wouldnt have gotten this far without the help weve gotten from other clubs/trust and fans.

What I was trying to say is that I cant let that affect our decisions in this issue, we have to do whats best for the club and trust and if that means people turn on us then we'l have to deal with that.

My brain is frazzled atm and things arent always coming out exactly how I want them to sound :D

[tippex]

Micls has there been any more movement on the takeover? Did you receive the neccessary docs from TNB?

[Dodge]

Just reading over my last few posts. I didnt mean to sound like were ungrateful for the support we have gotten. We wouldnt have gotten this far without the help weve gotten from other clubs/trust and fans.

What I was trying to say is that I cant let that affect our decisions in this issue, we have to do whats best for the club and trust and if that means people turn on us then we'l have to deal with that.

My brain is frazzled atm and things arent always coming out exactly how I want them to sound :D

I don't think anyone is arguing against that. its the "we didn't do anything wrong, blame the FAI for us getting the licence" argument that I have a problem with. By all means fight your corner, but don't pretend like you're totally innocent in this debacle

(and I say that as someone who has consistently supported Cork on this and other issues, I even donated stuff for a FORAS auction a while ago. I absolutely want Cork City to survive. I would just be disgusted if I aw them in european football next year)

[L.T.F.C.]

Don't know if it's officially confirmed but he's on the committee already and posts on here from time to time. A Section O alumnus!.
Are you going to be brought to task for posting here too? hahahahaha

[Longfordian]

Don't think his new role is a big secret but I'm just being cautious as they may have their reasons for not announcing it yet!. I'm sure it will all come out in due course. I've been brought to task a couple of times over the years but sure I'm still here..

[RonnieB]

I still got the job as resident bafoon yea? I heard rumours it was being out sourced?

[Bluebeard]

I cannot believe that ye made Acornvilla your Press Officer. Unbelieveable.

[Martinho II]

I cannot believe that ye made Acornvilla your Press Officer. Unbelieveable.

its not acornvilla its one of our elder founder members of section o whos being postin on foot.ie from day one!

[Longfordian]

His literacy levels are senceational, he's lerned alot at collage. Just kidding Acorn..No it's not him, nor me nor Ronnie, resident drunkard/buffoon is his official title, nor Martinho.

[Martinho II]

His literacy levels are senceational, he's lerned alot at collage. Just kidding Acorn..No it's not him, nor me nor Ronnie, resident drunkard/buffoon is his official title, nor Martinho.

nor pauro 7, tallonted, salmon coloured...

[Macy]

salmon coloured...
I was hoping it was Salmon Coloured, the way that journalists and errortel just stick in press releases word for word...

[Martinho II]

[QUOTE=Macy;1321984]I was hoping it was Salmon Coloured, the way that journalists and errortel just stick in press releases word for word...[/QUOTE

alas not to be its not massop 10 either

[Town Legend]

It's me!!!! Ah only joking.....it's not me either!!!!

[pineapple stu]

Isn't even Irish, I hear. For shame...

[Nedser]

Mine was a kind of counter-rhetorical question to micls' original.

"counter-rhetorical". Aren't UCD fans great? :)