View Full Version : Public Sector Cost-Cutting
Fr Damo
04/12/2009, 8:13 AM
Alainis Morrissette might even write a song about it!
This Government should go now, simple. Very interesting letter to the editor in todays indi
I AM very pleased with the unions' suggestion of unpaid leave for public servants. This will mean that I have three extra weeks at home with my young children.
With the tax rebate that I will get, I don't think I will lose much of my salary. However, as I am a teacher in a small school, I do have concerns for the pupils who will lose out on teaching days and I am concerned as to who will supervise them in my absence.
I am quite surprised that the Government has agreed to this deal and I am wondering what mandate Mr McLoone has.
Did he become and I failed to notice?
Name and address in paper.
Talks collapsed this afternoon.
Here we go again.
It really does sound like Cowen and co ballsed this up completely. Worked their way to agreement, then threw the rattle out of the pram because they were afraid their idiot backbenchers and IBEC would be annoyed with them.
centre mid
04/12/2009, 8:09 PM
What ever happens in the Budget social partnership is dead and there may be trade union trouble for years to come after the waste of time this barganing was. WTF did FF even go into this for?
It would have been far far better to have just said srew you to the unions in the first place, this government is so inept.
NeilMcD
05/12/2009, 11:44 AM
Alainis Morrissette might even write a song about it!
This Government should go now, simple. Very interesting letter to the editor in todays indi
Name and address in paper.
mmm, where did this teacher find out the exact workings of the proposed system. It was not known whether the teachers woudl be gettting the unpaid leave on top of the 2/3 summer holidays.
Secondy how could you trust the indo when they have not published the name of the person. I honestly would not trust anything that comes from that paper in reliation to industrial relations.
Fr Damo
05/12/2009, 12:29 PM
The Indo did post the name and address, I didn't cos I didn't think it would be right but told ye where to get it by saying "name and address in paper".
I think the point the letter was trying to make was this 12 days un paid wasn't / isn't workable at the front end, Garda. teachers hospitals, social welfare. It's the back up of these services where the fat is as far as I am aware. And although I have said everybody should be taking a cut i believe some should be taking more than others. Politicans who are being paid 110k a year I think, should be hit with 20% and to allow them still earn c 90k which lets be honest is about 60 k more then they'd earn in industry as many on this board are who are much more intellectual than them are on the average industrial.
General election on the cards, Government Tds are pulling rank and the budget might not passed by the house.
NeilMcD
06/12/2009, 12:40 PM
I think Begg has just hit the nail on the head on RTE 1 just now. He has a view that the Government, had 2 aspects to the talks. One stated (correct the budget defecit) and one not stated (to bring down wages across the board both private and public as response to the fact we cannot reduce our currency). When the talks were pretty close to agreement on the first bit, the back benchers and some ministers in their talks with ISME shat themselves as the unstated goal would not be achieved even though the first bit would.
I thin his analysis is dead right, and that is why this private sector public sector divide is rubbish and it goes alon with what has been said here all along that a reduction in wages in the public sector does not do any good to paye workers in the private sector.
John83
06/12/2009, 1:01 PM
... a reduction in wages in the public sector does not do any good to paye workers in the private sector.
Ché? I fail to see how this is the case.
NeilMcD
06/12/2009, 1:14 PM
Is that meant to be some sort of dig there John. Pathetic really. Here is some economics. Mary works in the public sector, she has 100 euro disposable income a week, after the cuts she has 90 euro disposable income a week, she is now less likely to be spending as much money in shops, pubs restaurants etc and as a result business goes down in the private sector, with eventual pay cuts and lay offs.
Secondly as the Irish economy cannot develue its currency, IBEC and ISME and others want to devalue the wages across the board here in Ireland. The very fact that the targeted figure of 1.3 billion was going to be met, but yet the government with the backing of ISME and IBEC pulled the plug, suggests that that was not the actual goa. It was their stated goal but their unstated one, was much more important to them, which is to drive down wages across the board. Cuts in public sector wages will lead to further cuts in private sector wages, using scenario 1 as an excuse.
John83
06/12/2009, 1:49 PM
Is that meant to be some sort of dig there John. Pathetic really.
No, Neil, it was a simple request for clarification on a rather bold claim.
Here is some economics. Mary works in the public sector, she has 100 euro disposable income a week, after the cuts she has 90 euro disposable income a week, she is now less likely to be spending as much money in shops, pubs restaurants etc and as a result business goes down in the private sector, with eventual pay cuts and lay offs.
This is a spectacularly reductionist piece of economics. Mary's pay decrease also reduces pay inequality and drives price reductions which benefit people on low incomes in the private sector. The interactions between these elements are not trivial.
NeilMcD
06/12/2009, 1:55 PM
No, Neil, it was a simple request for clarification on a rather bold claim.
This is a spectacularly reductionist piece of economics. Mary's pay decrease also reduces pay inequality and drives price reductions which benefit people on low incomes in the private sector. The interactions between these elements are not trivial.
No the Che comment, was cheap and childish dig, thats what I was referring to in my first sentence.
The tax intake also reduces, as Mary is paying less tax and the businesses are making less money and employing less people, so the tax take reduces and as a result there are less services for people in the society. I must be rather foolish not to cop that ISME IBECT and Fianna Fail are in reality puruing an equality agenda which sees a smaller spread of wealth across the economy.
NeilMcD
06/12/2009, 2:06 PM
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/gene-kerrigan-anger-may-not-be-a-policy-but-greed-is-1965635.html
Fair play to gene kerrigan an oasis in the desert that is that rag
My view would be a two day strike, Tuesday and Wednesday next week.
The day here, day there strikes are a waste of time - ill only be voting for an all out strike from now on!!! (will never happen though unfotunately when ye consider the one day stike was only voted by 70% of pseu members!!)
John83
06/12/2009, 2:48 PM
No the Che comment, was cheap and childish dig, thats what I was referring to in my first sentence.
Oh, I understand the confusion. I was using it in its idiomatic Spanish meaning - roughly, "Eh?" (pretentious, moi?), but it's certainly ambiguous. Not my intention, and apologies for the confusion.
The tax intake also reduces...
Look, I'm not saying that ultimately you're wrong. What I'm saying is that claiming it's as simple as you are claiming is foolish.
NeilMcD
06/12/2009, 3:07 PM
Oh, I understand the confusion. I was using it in its idiomatic Spanish meaning - roughly, "Eh?" (pretentious, moi?), but it's certainly ambiguous. Not my intention, and apologies for the confusion.
Look, I'm not saying that ultimately you're wrong. What I'm saying is that claiming it's as simple as you are claiming is foolish.
I was not saying it was simple, I suppose were are consricted on this board by the conventions of a post. In that we cannot write a paper on this or a thesis on it, or I do not have the time anyway. The problem is, that these are complex matters and we have policians and economists who are trying to paint it as a simple, if we solve the budgetary issues it will be all resolved. I know many people who perceive that that unions are getting in the way of the country recovering, and if onlyl we could get public sector pay cuts we would be out of the hot water. As Gene Kerrigan said, they said this about Nama, and about Lisbon.
Is it no spelt Qué by the way, hence the confusion. No prob on that, I thought you were trying to portray me as a die in the wool socialist.
Fr Damo
06/12/2009, 3:52 PM
[QUOTE=NeilMcD;1288838] Mary works in the public sector, she has 100 euro disposable income a week, after the cuts she has 90 euro disposable income a week, she is now less likely to be spending as much money in shops, pubs restaurants etc and as a result business goes down in the private sector, with eventual pay cuts and lay offs.
I think Neil the goal is, and I agree it's idealistic, with prices falling on the back of competitiveness Mary will still buy the same goods for 90 euro.........albeit eventually.
We are so small here, we need to realise we have to be export led to get anything like the "standard of Living" we had, or might aspire to. BTW I have standard in qoutes becasue it is argued we had f... all working 60 hours a week anyway.
We need foregin currency to keep this country going and becuase of the Strong Euro (weak dollar and sterling depending on how you look at it) our exporters, who add the real value to our GNP, just cannot survive let alone expand. I'm talking about the small food producer with ten people, or the metal fabricator with 50 people etc. The real economy.
The storey's about 400 million euro being lost/spent up north this year suits the government at the moment, don't be fooled by it as it is only the turnover of four large car dealerships and in the scheme of things not a whole lot.
sorry if I upset some Louthonians!
NeilMcD
06/12/2009, 3:56 PM
Plus the corrupt seeling of our gas resources off the coast of Mayo fit in with this small open polity view. I agree we are a small open polity who needs to be export led. Hence why we should have had tax breaks for people to invest in entrepreneurs rather than property. In addition we should not have sold out natural resources so norwegian speculators can take the profits, which help the schools and hospitals of norway while our ones go to ****.
It really is time for Fianna Fail to get the hell out of there. Unfortunately people who do not see all of this will probably be patting them on the back for standing up to the unions.
Union leaders have warned that public sector pay cuts in Wednesday's budget could lead to chaos and unrest.
Peter McLoone of IMPACT told RTÉ that the Finance Minister Brian Lenihan had cautioned last year that pay cuts in France could lead to riots - and warned that we could expect a similar reaction here.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1206/partnership.html
Strange thing to predict. Judging by the polls yesterday , the majority of the public blame the unions /public service. Now the unions are pedicting riots.
Fr Damo
07/12/2009, 8:11 AM
Silly man imo
The Public service people I talk to in the pub, at football matches etc are nowhere near what he is talking about. I'm sick saying it but in my experince there is a general acceptance that pay is going to be cut and most of the PS are prepared to get on with it.
Neil, i think your view on the gas fields is a bit extreme though, I agree we missed a trick there.
He's wrong, because the Irish are to thick and/or lazy to stand up for themselves. Do you think a Government in any democracy would've survived to even be in a position to give this budget, given they were the main cause of it? Do you think in most countries the population would've fallen hook, line and sinker for the divide and conquer tactics of making it worker v worker?
I think public servanst might accept cuts, if they see the top boys taking circa 25%. I doubt that will happen, as TD and Ministers pay is linked to the top public servants, it'll be some lip service amount instead. People have also been consistent in calling for an overall economic plan to provide context for any cuts. We are still waiting for the Government to produce one.
btw We were raped of our natural resources, such as the gas, by corrupt Governments. We don't even have surity of supply, never mind a financial benefit. Look at the signatories of the various deals giving over our resources, and the tax deals done subsequently.
passinginterest
07/12/2009, 9:51 AM
Got a nice laugh out of walking up to the Arc de Triumph on Friday to see the notice "Closed due to strike by civil servants", terrible to see the talks have collapsed, there will inevitably be more strikes now as this will be a hatchet job by a totally inept government. This is the kind of think that could add years to the recession.
there will inevitably be more strikes now as this will be a hatchet job by a totally inept government. This is the kind of think that could add years to the recession.
They've been shambolic. If they were going to cut pay regardless, they should've done it when they introduced the "pension" levy and not wasted time on talks. Instead we've had nine months of hoarding instead because of the uncertainty, when they weren't going to do a deal anyway. Or they were going to do a deal and didn't because of the reaction, not because of the merits or otherwise. They're clueless.
Ringo
07/12/2009, 12:31 PM
He's wrong, because the Irish are to thick and/or lazy to stand up for themselves. Do you think a Government in any democracy would've survived to even be in a position to give this budget, given they were the main cause of it? Do you think in most countries the population would've fallen hook, line and sinker for the divide and conquer tactics of making it worker v worker?.
Its suits the opposition to have a budget like this brought in by FF. If they come to power soon they won't change any of it back. No matter who’s responsible, we need to bring the spending under control.
John83
07/12/2009, 1:26 PM
I think public servanst might accept cuts, if they see the top boys taking circa 25%. I doubt that will happen, as TD and Ministers pay is linked to the top public servants, it'll be some lip service amount instead. People have also been consistent in calling for an overall economic plan to provide context for any cuts. We are still waiting for the Government to produce one.
The TDs took a 10% pay cut a few months ago (I think), and are now taking a further 20% cut. At what point does this argument begin to look ignorant?
Fr Damo
07/12/2009, 2:16 PM
Biffo is taking a 14% cut so I would expect ministers to impose a 10-12% cut on themselves (that sounds soo stupid) and TDs anywhere 7.5% - 10%. And anybody else in the public service on comparable pay scales to the aforementioned can expect the same. Middle earners on 40 - 60k will be hit by a 5% i would think. Overtime is a thing of history as there are 3.5m days of capacity in the public sector at present. That is, per the 12 days the unions put forward!
Will the budget be passed is the next question!!
The TDs took a 10% pay cut a few months ago (I think), and are now taking a further 20% cut. At what point does this argument begin to look ignorant?
They pay the pension levy, which is up to 10% on some of their earnings. Any other cuts mentioned are to be implemented in the next Dail (it's not like they're the Government, with a majority, who could change the legislation or anything).
If they had their pay cut by an additional 20%, if it's on their total earnings and depending on what the average cut is, and is before any furture higher renumeration board recommendations, there may be some element of "pain sharing". If it's 10-15% with an average of 6%, they will deserve no credit. And they (the Government) deserve no feckin credit, as the situation is their making anyway!
bennocelt
07/12/2009, 3:43 PM
The TDs took a 10% pay cut a few months ago (I think), and are now taking a further 20% cut. At what point does this argument begin to look ignorant?
Not until they take a 50% pay cut:mad:
mypost
07/12/2009, 3:52 PM
Will the budget be passed is the next question!!
Is it a question?
Of course it will be passed, every other one has been passed since 1982, when FF were not in power. The Greens sold their souls to FF last October, the Independents are mostly ex-FFers, and they'll stand to a man behind Cowen as they did 6 months ago in the confidence vote, the man who has failed to get a deal 3 times now with the social partners since assuming office.
More generally, there are 6 sitting days after the budget before the Dail splits up for 6 weeks. By then, the cuts will be in, and the uproar will be long gone.
Fr Damo
07/12/2009, 4:41 PM
On reflection you are probably right mypost... but just.
old git
07/12/2009, 9:27 PM
Biffo is taking a 14% cut so I would expect ministers to impose a 10-12% cut on themselves (that sounds soo stupid) and TDs anywhere 7.5% - 10%. And anybody else in the public service on comparable pay scales to the aforementioned can expect the same. Middle earners on 40 - 60k will be hit by a 5% i would think. Overtime is a thing of history as there are 3.5m days of capacity in the public sector at present. That is, per the 12 days the unions put forward!
Will the budget be passed is the next question!!
poor old tds can they really afford cuts... how about people on welfare ... looking at 10 % cut in child benefit and 4% on dole so a family may lose 14% of their income !!!! :( makes a joke of tds taking their 7% - 12% cuts.
Don't think your sums come anywhere near adding up there old git- child benefit would only be a small percentage of income.
Very scary edition of Prime Time on there, it seems social welfare fraud probably runs to €2-3 billion. The stats about towns around the border having more claimants than population were very damning. The budget should massively increase the resources available to control this phenomenon as it's costing the country massive money.
Very scary edition of Prime Time on there
Complete with evil slow mos and menacing music
The budget should massively increase the resources available to control this phenomenon as it's costing the country massive money.
Instead the budget will take money from public services
old git
07/12/2009, 11:19 PM
Don't think your sums come anywhere near adding up there old git- child benefit would only be a small percentage of income.
Very scary edition of Prime Time on there, it seems social welfare fraud probably runs to €2-3 billion. The stats about towns around the border having more claimants than population were very damning. The budget should massively increase the resources available to control this phenomenon as it's costing the country massive money.
yeah watched prime time tonight scary alright but showed up a lot of flaws in welfare system and welfare officals .. cannot understand how people have swindled state for 30,000, 60,000 and one woman over 100,000 over 14 years how these people have not been sent to jail .. christ some of them are still getting welfare payments.. why were resources not available during the so called celtic tiger boom years to clamp down on fraud !! as already said programme pointed a few fingers at welfare dept and officals
bennocelt
07/12/2009, 11:32 PM
poor old tds can they really afford cuts... how about people on welfare ... looking at 10 % cut in child benefit and 4% on dole so a family may lose 14% of their income !!!! :( makes a joke of tds taking their 7% - 12% cuts.
Which is about 8 euro, wow
- thats about two pints:p
osarusan
08/12/2009, 12:04 AM
Which is about 8 euro, wow
- thats about two pints:p
I'm glad you find humour in it.
Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern says the Government will not tolerate any industrial action by An Garda Síochána.
Dermot Ahern was responding to the announcement earlier today by the Garda Representative Association that they will ballot its members for industrial action.
The Minister said the move was a challenge to the authority of the State and one which the Government would not countenance.
Mr Ahern said gardaí 'are not being asked to take any more pain than anyone else'.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1207/gardai.html
Is it a question?
FF TD's and FF Gene Pool Independents voting against the Government in the National Interest? No. Only on really important matters, such as local organisation elections, do the moral people of FF spit the dummy and remove support....
Very scary edition of Prime Time on there, it seems social welfare fraud probably runs to €2-3 billion. The stats about towns around the border having more claimants than population were very damning. The budget should massively increase the resources available to control this phenomenon as it's costing the country massive money.
Only saw bits and pieces of the programme (plan to catch it on RTE Player). But a couple of general points. You'd wonder whether the move to direct bank transfer payments helped facilitate the fraud. If they had to go to the local post office to get their payments, they'd have to look someone in the eye at least, and you'd think it would cut down on welfare tourists to some degree.
I've no idea whether the €2-3 billion is accurate, but if it is it's a damning indictment of the Government that after 12 years in power that much is being lost to the state. A succession of FF Ministers must have had their eyes completely off the ball. That amount would cover both the proposed cuts in social welfare and public sector pay. If they could stop the fraud, we wouldn't need this thread (this year at least)!
On the Prime Time thing- had to laugh at all the attempted interviews with the fraudsters. What a waste of time, sure only one of them in the whole episode actually spoke to them!
What really annoyed me was that people who'd stolen 10's of thousands only ever seemed to have to pay back 10k at most, and then usually at pathetically low weekly payments.
saint dog
08/12/2009, 10:23 AM
the social welfare is far too much in this country and has to be cut
dahamsta
08/12/2009, 10:30 AM
That's a bit simplistic saint dog, you'll need to do better than soundbytes in here.
How much is "too much"? How much would you cut? From where?
saint dog
08/12/2009, 10:45 AM
204 per week is too much maybe cut it to 190
i think it should be cut to suit peoples circumstances
by that i dont mean single parents etc are entitied to it
i mean if youve worked for so like and are unfortunate to now be out of work (like i was for a long time ) well fine you deserve your full amount (190) why , because you've paid tax for the years youve worked and now deserve it back due to been let go but if your out of work for 1 year 2 years 5 years and are still claiming job seekers benifit theres something wrong
i think the max anyone should get the full amount is 1year then it should be gradually cut .
i have a terrible gripe with people who i know who haven't worked a day in the last two years but yet can afford an 09 car , have rent mostly paid by the social
whilst me and many others on here pay taxs so than can live relatively comfortably .
rant over (for now)
Fr Damo
08/12/2009, 11:42 AM
That's a bit simplistic saint dog, you'll need to do better than soundbytes in here.
How much is "too much"? How much would you cut? From where?
We should use the min wage as a guide or benchmark and work backwards. It's currently 8.65 an hour. If you work 39 hours a week about 340 euro a week. Now subtract your bus fare, travel to and from work or car pool, then subtract lunch and you are back near to the 204 quid you were getting on the rock and roll. What's worse is people are working say 30 hours at 8.65 and by the time they take out lunch, travel etc are worse than the dole and cannot claim any assistance.
Obvioulsy flawed.
The dole cannot equal 2 thirds of the minimium wage and it has been argued the minimium wage is too high anyway. Is it too crude to assume a formula for calcualting unemployment assistance based on the minimium wage?
dahamsta
08/12/2009, 11:48 AM
Thank you saint god.
The minimum wage is too high generally, but it got there because of the cost of living. If the minimum wage is to be cut, it needs to be very, very gradual. It would be better if the ridiculous cost of living in Ireland was dealt with in any kind of serious way.
I said it at the time and I'll say it again: the killing off of the Groceries Order was a bad idea, and couldn't have been timed worse. It's like they were trying to kill it at exactly the wrong time.
adam
bennocelt
08/12/2009, 12:40 PM
I'm glad you find humour in it.
Well the social is a joke alright, and didn't you see Prime time last night
dahamsta
08/12/2009, 1:02 PM
Jokes go in Off Topic bennocelt. People try to have serious conversations in here, interspersed with intelligent wit. (That wasn't intelligent wit, in case it needs to be added.)
John83
08/12/2009, 1:24 PM
I said it at the time and I'll say it again: the killing off of the Groceries Order was a bad idea, and couldn't have been timed worse. It's like they were trying to kill it at exactly the wrong time.
The groceries order forced shops to sell food at no less than cost, right? What were the negatives to its abolition?
It would be better if the ridiculous cost of living in Ireland was dealt with in any kind of serious way.
I'd start with our ridiculously regulated utilities that have made us go from having one of the cheapest costing utilities to one of the most expensive. Get the ESB, Bord Gais going back to break even positions, and if that drives the profiteers out, so feckin what?
Every area that has been opened up to competition, with a state appointed regulation working to the Governments policies, has increased costs to consumers and business, generally with reduced service levels.
Competitiveness needs to be improved, but the focus of that being wages, welfare rates and the public sector is ideological driven.
dahamsta
08/12/2009, 1:34 PM
The groceries order forced shops to sell food at no less than cost, right? What were the negatives to its abolition?Allowing the sale of products or services below costs unfairly weights competition in favour of big business. I have no problem with big business per se, in fact I do an embarassing level of shopping with them for someone that rails against them as often as I do. I do have a problem with unfair competition though.
Small business is dying a death in Ireland and although small business operators are certainly partially to blame for not competing when they should have, those days are long gone. We need to level the playing field, and not allowing below cost selling is a perfectly reasonable and fair way of doing that.
They're in a better position to compete on price already, and if they can't compete on quality on top of that, screw them.
centre mid
08/12/2009, 2:31 PM
In order for large supermarkets to provide goods at low prices, it is usually the producer's margin that gets squeezed. Its killing off many decent Irish producers, even co-ops are struggling.
NeilMcD
08/12/2009, 2:43 PM
Well said Dahamsta, a lot of this is ideological driven, and johns point above is a classic case of something in itselt not being a problem but the knock of effects of it and how it fits into the rest of society making it a problem. Extreme capitalists have a habit of painting things as relatively simple and try to use the common sense argument. One should always be weary of anybody who says anyting to do with economics is simple and deserves a simple solution. The public finances debate is another example of this.
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