Public Sector Cost-Cutting

[Fr Damo]

[QUOTE=Dodge;1283193]HOw will cutting public servant pay help anyone with out a job?

YOu open with the above and then go into your usual rant about the economy. HOw will cutting the public paybill help stimulate the economy?


It won't in it's self but it's a bigger picture. The 1.3B they are looking to cut from the public sector is a lot easier to find at the moment than the 1.3B from normal PAYE workers of which something 40-50% pay no tax at all. And with unemployment still set to rise in the first three month of next year (mainly in retail, Car sales and resturants IMO) the private sector is set to shrink further.
High taxes don't incourage spending or investment, this is what we need now, so it must come from the governments expenditure side
Yes, the better well off could pay more but not through paye which is the easist and quickest way.
The strike should be called off now, right now, take the hit. How can a teacher in Gort or Ballinasloe go on strike when students are are being evacuated from their homes?

I'm off to St V de Paul to donate old clothes and bed linen.

[Fr Damo]

Actually, it's more like the other way around. It was the union heads that were talking down the members after the first pay cut this year. The aborted strike was driven by motions from branches, that are made up of ordinary representatives. Sorry to squash another myth/ cliché...

Jack O Connor is in it for himself. What's he on... 120K or something. Are these guys taking pay cuts as Union dues decrease with unemployment? He changes his tune when questioned toughly... The trophy house suggestion to Pat Kenny showed how devoid of imagination he is

Liam Doran I give credit to though as the son of a nurse, I think they are paid more than enough.

[gaiscíoch]

Either these people you know are idiots - voting for strike action so they can lose money? or they filling you up with a crock of something.


Or maybe they are so comfortable financially that they don't care about the loss of a few €uro????

[Ash]

There's a fair few people I'd say who are working in places which were closed for the strike but who, because they weren't unionised themselves, turned up for work only to find the place closed. I'm sure there's some strikers who've left the picket, but I'd say there's a fair few of the other group too. We can't really tell how many are from either group.

Some unionised and nonunionised employees in the PS applied for annual leave for
the day so as they wouldnt loose pay, but they were refused.

I've since heard that nonunionised teachers can appeal and get their days pay if
the school wasnt open. Dunno how accurate that is, just heard it a few minutes ago.

I also know of 1 PS place where nobody bothered to turn up for the picket.
Some nonunionised people didnt turn up for work assuming the picket would be there
and they either wouldnt cross it or the building wouldnt be open. The building was open
and work continued as normal for those who turned up so not sure if there will be any
repercusions for those who didnt

[Macy]

It won't in it's self but it's a bigger picture
What bigger picture? There is no overall plan being worked too. It's pick off the easy targets. Cutting pay will stop people spending, and be used to drive down wages in the rest of the economy. All of which will reduce tax take both of direct taxes and indirect taxes.


Jack O Connor is in it for himself. What's he on... 120K or something.
If union members don't like him, they can vote him out. He was only re-elected a year or so ago.


I've since heard that nonunionised teachers can appeal and get their days pay if
the school wasnt open. Dunno how accurate that is, just heard it a few minutes ago.

Being locked out is different to not passing a picket. If the school wasn't open then how could they report for duty. Can't imagine too many teachers not in a union tbh, for the general protection they offer.

[saint dog]

what about cutting things like sick leave
the HSE has a terrible record for people going sick and getting paid for it ect
obviously some people are genuine but a high % milk it
in the private sector if you were to carry on like that you'd be out the door

[Macy]

If sick leave is a genuine issue, then that could be part of the negotiated agreement. It isn't, so it won't be.

[saint dog]

If sick leave is a genuine issue, then that could be part of the negotiated agreement. It isn't, so it won't be.

how is it not an issue ,

[Macy]

how is it not an issue ,
Because there is no evidence it is being abused, and if it is there are procedures to deal with that abuse. There are no efficiency gains in making sick people turn in for work just to avoid being docked pay.

[saint dog]

Because there is no evidence it is being abused, and if it is there are procedures to deal with that abuse. There are no efficiency gains in making sick people turn in for work just to avoid being docked pay.

but there are for those who just couldn't be bothered going into work in the public sector , knowing they'll get paid anyway and more securing knowing they wont lose their job over it
and btw there is planty of evidence that sick pay is been abused across the board .

[Macy]

Paid sick leave and absenteeism isn't the preserve of the public sector. Please point me in the direction of hard evidence it is being abused across the entire sector (i.e. evidence it is being abused, not just rates without any comparison to other sectors).

[Fr Damo]

Paid sick leave and absenteeism isn't the preserve of the public sector. Please point me in the direction of hard evidence it is being abused across the entire sector (i.e. evidence it is being abused, not just rates without any comparison to other sectors).

I genuinley don't want to be part of the us and them argument that some in the press are happy to pedal. But........ It has been widley reported that absenteeism on a Monday and friday in the public sector are way above that of those in the private sector. Fact. It's backed up by both antidotal and employment records. Moreover it has been said there is an increase in and around bank holidays!
Granted, I would say instances of this have decreased in the recession but clerical grades accross the HSE, Dept of ed, County councils etc are all guilty of it. I regularily call on Co. Co. Work shops/ Garages, Engeneers with my work. I also call on private sector business and the level of Capital employeed in the public sector verses the provate secotor 3 to 5 fold. In otherwords, many tasks being undertaken by the public sector could be out sourced to the private sector and completed at a much less rate. Overstaffing is a big issue too. All in my limited experience that is!!

Why do the Dept of eduaction get a christmas shopping day btw? And banking days and church holidays in the Councils. Madness

[dahamsta]

It is abused across the board, so it should be dealt with at a general level.

Last I heard sick days were way down at the moment, strange coincidence that.

adam

[dahamsta]

Fr Damo, if you're going to claim that there's evidence, I think you should find and post it. Macy specifically asked for it above.

[Fr Damo]

Fr Damo, if you're going to claim that there's evidence, I think you should find and post it. Macy specifically asked for it above.


Below gives details of actual percentages of the best and worst offenders in the various Government Departments. I agree the report points out the level per 100 employees who have taken days off sick rather than an abuse but by the very nature of the levels being at 77 per hundred being off sick in the Property and Labortory dept it doesn't take much to work out they have been taking the mick.

from the Irsh Indi on Oct 23rd 09.



And there was another blow for public sector workers when it was revealed the average civil servant takes 11 sick days a year -- almost double the rate of absence in the private sector.
The report from the Comptroller and Auditor General emerged as the Government gets ready to slash €1.3bn from the public sector pay and pensions bill in December's Budget.
The report shows three out of five civil servants take leave and the direct cost of absenteeism is €64m. But the all-in cost to the country is reckoned to be double this amount.
Absenteeism
By contrast the latest survey of absenteeism in the private sector shows an average rate of just six days per employee.
Responding to the report, the Department of Finance (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Irish+Department+of+Finance) pointed out that over 40pc of staff took no sick leave in 2007.
The department said an up-to-date and robust policy to manage sick leave was at an advanced stage of negotiation with the unions.
The investigation found the highest levels of sick leave were in the State Laboratory (77pc of employees had taken absence); the Property Registration Authority (76pc); the Department of Social and Family Affairs(69pc); the Public Appointments Service (67pc); the Central Statistics Office (67pc); the Chief State Solicitor Office (66pc); and the Director of Public Prosecutions (65pc).
Among the lower rates were the Department of Arts, Sport(42pc); theTaoiseach's office (43pc);Office of Public Works (44pc); and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (45pc).

[Dodge]

Doesn't mention Mondays or Fridays

FACT

this is such an idiotic debate btw. There are no large scale organisations to compare the PS figures to, and anecdotal evidence is nearly always bull****.

I say that as a current private Sector/ex Public sector worker

[Fr Damo]

Well I see it getting worse before it gets better, 300 jobs gone today @10k pa unemployement benifit is 3m euro needed by the social june 2010 onwards. And that's just today. Add in budget travel and EP mooney plus the catostrophic Jan I think we will see.
If we cannot borrow next year or worse still make repayments on bonds falling due we are in serious trouble. The 1.3B cuts to pay the government are looking for will seem like a bargin. I have said before I don't view it as us against them, i'm happy to have my pay cut 10% in Jan if needed. (and i know that reduces PAYE further) My pension has been put on hold by my employer already this year, i'm 33 and have 11 years under my belt so not bothered about it - If it means I keep my job where do I sign.

It'll will read.......

Non Union member.

[mypost]

HOw will cutting public servant pay help anyone with out a job?

Never said it would.


YOu then go into your usual rant about the economy.

Everything about the marches is connected to the economy.


HOw will cutting the public paybill help stimulate the economy?

It's not to stimulate the economy, it's designed to get the public expenses in order. Brussels have given us till 2013 to sort it out. And the government must find the €4 billion this year as instructed, march or no march.

Everyone wants the cuts to be distributed "fairly", as long as they're unaffected. :rolleyes:

[Macy]

Below gives details of actual percentages of the best and worst offenders in the various Government Departments.
I also specifically asked "not just rates without any comparison to other sectors". Ah well.


Everyone wants the cuts to be distributed "fairly", as long as they're unaffected
Do people actually read other posts, never mind follow the wider real world debate? It's been said many times on this thread, other threads, by Trade Union spokespeople, that people are willing to take further cuts as part of a fair overall plan. Can you not accept that? And I'm choosing to ignore the hypocritical element of that comment given your past posts when other cuts have been suggested.

[Fr Damo]

I aint going to be drawn into this one, but the report does say Public sector take 11 sick days a year against the private sector average of 6.

And what this overall plan being put forward by the PS? I haven't heard it yet.

[Macy]

And what this overall plan being put forward by the PS? I haven't heard it yet.
The ICTU plan can be found on their website.

[Fr Damo]

Thanks Macy, I heard Begg on about stretching it out until 2017 but the problem for the country as I see it is the cost base now and the best and fastest way to address this is to reduce wages... the private sector are on with it through natural attrition and economics (supply & demand). We'll get no investment here otherwise. It talks about Taxing the 71Billon made by 1% of the population.... How & where is that "wealth"? Bank shares and crap property that's where.
It claims we have scope to borrow more due to the % to GDP. I note Italy Portugal, Greece are above us, spain just behind, the other member of the Pigs group.
Yes some of the recomendation are worth discussion but we don't have time just now., We need a cut in social welfare, a cut in PS pay, increase corporation tax to 15% and reduce Co Co business rates. reduce VAt but Increase green taxes and get rid of VRT. etc etc. There are a mulitude of ways. Is it that the PS sector think they are the only ones that are going to be hit. If so, it's purely down to bad communication. This is and will be economy wide over the next three to four years. Nobody is escaping this.
The strike is effing Madness.

[Macy]

Yes some of the recomendation are worth discussion but we don't have time just now.
Congress has been proposing this for the guts of a year now. We still have no alternative. Apparently we need NAMA because there isn't time to discuss anything else, well over a year since the "banking crisis" and with no end in sight. This is bullcrap that is used to avoid debate, and avoid making proper (and in all likelyhood tough) decisions for long term good.

The lack of an overall plan, the proposals to cut pay and welfare for short term balancing when it will increase future problems aren't making the hard decisions. They are making the feckin easy ones, especially in the spin that's accompanied it.


Is it that the PS sector think they are the only ones that are going to be hit. If so, it's purely down to bad communication. This is and will be economy wide over the next three to four years. Nobody is escaping this..
At the moment, the only things on the table are cuts in pay and welfare. Poor communication me arse. To repeat myself yet again, there is no plan, if there was a coherent plan people would accept cuts! There isn't, so people won't. If they do sit back and accept it, then they know they'll be hit again. As they were with the previous cut.

[Ash]

Dunno if its been posted earlier, too lazy to read back through it again, but
I was told yesterday that official notice of a strike next Thursday (3rd Dec) has
been issued

[Fr Damo]

Thanks Ash, was aware and indeed refering to that in my last post.

[BohsPartisan]

I aint going to be drawn into this one, but the report does say Public sector take 11 sick days a year against the private sector average of 6.

And what this overall plan being put forward by the PS? I haven't heard it yet.

Because in the public sector if you are seriously ill and are out for a year or two you are still considered to be employed but you are paid out of illness benefit the same as anyone out of the private sector is not from your department's payroll. So if you average it out obviously a secure job is going to show a higher number of sick days because people can go out sick for a year or two and still have a job to come back to.

[Lionel Ritchie]

It is abused across the board, so it should be dealt with at a general level.

Last I heard sick days were way down at the moment, strange coincidence that.

adam

By "across the board" do you mean across the entire Public sector or across the entire workforce.

I'd be surprised if absenteeism and sick leave isn't well down in the private sector ...and not neccessarily for any good reason to do with people deciding to get their act together, straighten up and fly right either.

By way of anecdote -a good friend of mine is being treated for a quite serious fungal infection of the lungs. He's not well, could get worse and should be out on the sick leave he's entitled to but is afraid to in case it makes his employer finger him for the next round of lay offs.

[dahamsta]

By "across the board" do you mean across the entire Public sector or across the entire workforce.The latter.


I'd be surprised if absenteeism and sick leave isn't well down in the private sector ...and not neccessarily for any good reason to do with people deciding to get their act together, straighten up and fly right either.Precisely my point. The flip side is that (I'd imagine) there's an awful lot more people using Facebook and boss keys now. It's a sad fact of life that the further we progress, the less people we actually need to do work; one that isn't being handled very well by those in power (again, across the board).

Unfortunately in some areas this does apply more to the public sector than the private sector, but it's probably balanced out by the fact that we'll always need teachers, nurses, doctors, clerical staff, etc. The issues now are different:


more and more work is being contracted out; and the longer we go at it, the more inappropriate it gets; and
more and more people are working in places they don't belong.

This it the elephant in the room in the health service, with ridiculous numbers of people sitting at desks pushing papers, because they were graded there, when most would would probably be better at, and happier doing, their job is they were still on the ground.

adam

[mypost]

It's been said many times on this thread, other threads, by Trade Union spokespeople, that people are willing to take further cuts as part of a fair overall plan. Can you not accept that?

It's not up to me to accept it, it's up to the Trade Unions to. Which to me, they are unwilling to do.


I'm choosing to ignore the hypocritical element of that comment given your past posts when other cuts have been suggested.

The past posts related to the JA/JB element of social welfare. Those who receive JA and JB are overwhelmingly made up of private sector people who are out of work, and at the bottom of the economic ladder.

Other social welfare payments, I have a different view on.

[Dunny]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1201/partnership.html

[dahamsta]

One can only imagine the amount of "back channel" discussions that go on between these guys. Like a bad episode of Spooks, filmed on Craggy Island. By bishops.

We should rent our politicians and union leaders out around the world, as backscratchers. Buy one get one free, we have a surplus.

adam

[hoops1]

12 days unpaid leave for Public sector workers across the board. Cant see that been a runner to the lower paid workers.

[Macy]

12 days unpaid leave for Public sector workers across the board. Cant see that been a runner to the lower paid workers.
Surely they'll be jumping at it, because all the coverage is about how great a deal it is for the public sector worker!

[Fr Damo]

Cannot see how the Government will physically mange it. How can we get teachers to take unpaid leave when we are short on them and similarily the Guards are struggling with rising crime etc. It's to subjective imo.

Secondly, there was a general acceptance that the public sectors workers on 25 - 35 k couldn't afford to take a hit and personally i would have left them alone this time around, these 12 days are effectively 5% pay cut accross the board and therefore unjust. Some departments are obviously over staffed and have excess capacity, more as we know are already struggling. I know a 2 public sector workers who were considering crossing the picket this thursday as the day without pay was 5% deduction they could not afford in the run up to xmas.

[passinginterest]

It's a tricky one without a doubt. I'd come into that 25-35k bracket and so would most of my work mates and we were generally more in favour of the unpaid leave than a cut, the way we're looking at it is at least this is supposed to be a temporary measure and it has a sort of compensation, whereas a cut would never be reversed.

It will make things awkward in terms of work building up and I'd imagine in areas like social welfare and redundancy as well as the obvious front line services it will be very difficult to implement. It does further illustrate the fact that there is an awful lot of inefficiency in the public service, when we can claim the 10-12 days of additional unpaid leave won't affect services, but it does offer the opportunity to make short term saving and long term reform in a more manageable manner.

There's a recruitment moratorium in place until 2014 already so there'll be a dramatic reduction in numbers purely by natural wastage in the next 4 years.

[seand]

Anyone know how this would work for teachers? Are the kids gonna get a fortnight's less education? Are the government going to try and not pay them for 12 days during the summer?!

[Fr Damo]

I heard some half effort f explanation on Morning ireland... basicaly they say it could be credited to them such that perhaps in 2011 they can take 20-24 days off (i assume like a months sabitical) .
The summer holiday's might be a good one!
In short I don't know! fine Gael in opposition as they can't see how it would work and lets be honest, they'll have to deal with it shortly.

[Macy]

I've no more details at this stage than what's been in the press. In frontline areas, they are talking of it being spread over 3 or 4 years. Teaching is the only place I see a real issue as they have fixed holidays (which is a bone of contention in itself).

It's a short term measure whilst efficiency/ flexibility changes come into place, and the embargo will remain in place. It's a 5% cut in spending, and I would think that it can be managed without Core services being effected. Short time working and temp layoff's are used throughout the private sector (only with those workers getting social welfare). I think some people/ commentators are obsessed with bitterness at this stage, and if public servants aren't in sackclothes they won't be happy.

As to whether it will be accepted, the devil will be in the detail judging by reaction here. A lot of public sector organisations no longer allow various family friendly (and cost reducing) policies on foot of the embargo. If this gives staff back some flexibility it will probably pass on the basis of it being a temp measure.

I hear on the 12 O'Clock News that Cowen is welching already - either because the headlines or because the garlic muncher has spat the clove. Again, whatever about the merits or otherwise, another example of decisive leadership :rolleyes:

[Fr Damo]

It's a short term measure whilst efficiency/ flexibility changes come into place, and the embargo will remain in place. It's a 5% cut in spending, and I would think that it can be managed without Core services being effected. Short time working and temp layoff's are used throughout the private sector (only with those workers getting social welfare). I think some people/ commentators are obsessed with bitterness at this stage, and if public servants aren't in sackclothes they won't be happy.

:rolleyes:
It is used in the private sector yes, but not in company's who are at 100% capacity. Much of the public sector is bursting at the seems if you believe what some of the Unions say. The more I think about it the more I see the tail wagging the dog. It will equate to 3m days a year, I don't think the public sector is flexible enough to manage the work load!

[Macy]

It's managing the non-replacement of staff, and non-renewal of temps. In our place there's been a big reorganisation of people with the change in workload that's happened - all done with agreement/ cooperation of the union (It doesn't make the media, as it doesn't suit the agenda).

This is supposed to be the short term cost saving, in lieu of the longer term flexibility etc. And the biggest obstacle to that is managers protecting their own patch/power, and Government letting them, rather than unions/ staff.

Cowen has already welched, and much more importantly Joe Duffy was spinning against it, so it's dead in the water imo anyway (we're governed more by liveline callers than the Cabinet). More strikes next week when Cowen officially reneges on last nights agreement?

[Fr Damo]

Didn't here Joe but i bet every self employed builder and their houswife this side of Clontarf was on. I think you are right about Cowan turning, Lenihan was at it on the news at one from Brussels I think.

This will make the Public sector more voiceiferous (sic) imo and probably more militant fueled of course by the lads with beards. Maybe the 8th of December would be a good day for a strike, if a quarter weren't already off that day! Actually the private sector will go out with them and we will soon see who is running (not ruining) this country!

100 odd jobs gone in PTSB, reducing branches

[Macy]

My view would be a two day strike, Tuesday and Wednesday next week.

At this stage, they could say they were cutting pay by 20% and there'd be outrage that it wasn't enough.

btw1 Interesting that even FG in Bruton see the need for an overall economic plan to be able to sell pay cuts.

btw2 IBEC on Morning Ireland yesterday basically admitted that they wanted to use cuts in public sector pay to drive down pay across the economy. Those liveline callers should be careful what they wish for.

[Fr Damo]

Ref the 2nd BTW... I can't believe it. Not becuase i don't believe it is necessary, it is, but because the clown actuall said it. Mr Fielding was it?

Speaking for my self and my missus, we are happy to work of a lower level of income provided that the cost of every thing else (I accept mortgage repayments will increase) comes back to more European (or British isles) norms. I work for a English compnay based in Ireland, their production staff are on about 7.50 per hour. They can get a sandwich for .99p on their way to work, they can get a pint for 2.20, they can buy a mid range three year old car for less than 5k. They can do a shop in ASADA/MORRISION/MATLAN for about 35% what we pay.
In 2008 My 2006 Irish opel vectra cost more than my boss'es English 06 S type Jag. We need to reduce costs here, public and private , in tandom or we will see further erosion of FDI currently here and ruin the prospect of ever winning any back. WE SIMPLY HAVE TO. Everybody.

[Macy]

Ref the 2nd BTW... I can't believe it. Not becuase i don't believe it is necessary, it is, but because the clown actuall said it. Mr Fielding was it?
No, not even the ISME nutjob, it was Danny McCoy from IBEC.


Speaking for my self and my missus
I think you're speaking for everyone, both Public and Private sector. But there's no plan to focus on other costs and rampant profiteering.

[bennocelt]

Speaking for my self and my missus, we are happy to work of a lower level of income provided that the cost of every thing else (I accept mortgage repayments will increase) comes back to more European (or British isles) norms..

where is that - sorry:p

Yeah agree most people are really happy to take a little hurt (pay levy, etc), but its also seems that its not felt across the board at all.
Wonder if the politicians will be taking any reduction in their salaries in the near future

[John83]

Yeah agree most people are really happy to take a little hurt (pay levy, etc), but its also seems that its not felt across the board at all.
Wonder if the politicians will be taking any reduction in their salaries in the near future
Didn't they take a 10% pay cut a few months ago?

[Macy]

Didn't they take a 10% pay cut a few months ago?
Did that even bring them down into a 5 figure salary? Oh, the pain that must have inflicted on them... If they'd taken 25-30% that would be comparable.

[Fr Damo]

[

QUOTE=

Yeah agree most people are really happy to take a little hurt (pay levy, etc), but its also seems that its not felt across the board at all.
Wonder if the politicians will be taking any reduction in their salaries in the near future

[/QUOTE]

As John says they took 10% during the year I think, I assume they got hit with the pension levy also but if politicans say they are asking for public sector pay to be cut by 7.5% for those on more than say 50k, I guess they will be taking the same level of cut?

[Dodge]

Funny to see a couple of bodies who had previously claimed for PS numbers to be "slashed" to start crying that unpaid leave would affect the levels of service as the PS would lose 5% of working hours.

[Macy]

Funny to see a couple of bodies who had previously claimed for PS numbers to be "slashed" to start crying that unpaid leave would affect the levels of service as the PS would lose 5% of working hours.
Nothing will ever be enough in a climate that outright lies become accepted as reality.