Budget 2009

[dahamsta]

I comprehend fine bennocelt, as my second-last post made clear, it's your simple-minded comprehension and "solutions" I have difficulty with. I mean "simple-minded" literally by the way, which isn't the same as the way you'll take it. I'm done with trying to make it clear to you, it's not worth the effort. You'd do well to read this thread (http://foot.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=129368), it has relevance to you.

[bennocelt]

I comprehend fine bennocelt, as my second-last post made clear, it's your simple-minded comprehension and "solutions" I have difficulty with. I mean "simple-minded" literally by the way, which isn't the same as the way you'll take it. I'm done with trying to make it clear to you, it's not worth the effort. You'd do well to read this thread (http://foot.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=129368), it has relevance to you.

yawn, whatever:)

[saint dog]

I comprehend fine bennocelt, as my second-last post made clear, it's your simple-minded comprehension and "solutions" I have difficulty with. I mean "simple-minded" literally by the way, which isn't the same as the way you'll take it. I'm done with trying to make it clear to you, it's not worth the effort. You'd do well to read this thread (http://foot.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=129368), it has relevance to you.


not think your being just a little bit harsh

[Fr Damo]

It didn't take long for the public sector pay cuts to be used to try and drive down other wages. Not predictable at all :rolleyes:

Shows you how far the Greens have gone that it's them raising it. Mind you, handy to concentrate on pay of the worker when it's competition for competitions sake that is driving prices of our utilities.



Link (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1215/1224260714350.html)

The reduction in the rates of pay accross the economy I think generally is accpted as A way forward but on it's own obviously won't be enough.
These private sector wages have been falling long before any mention of public sector cuts. (ask the cars sales man or anybody else dependant on commision for their part of their salary etc etc)

Re the semi states - I wonder had the government worked out prior to the budget, how the PAYE tax receipts at the semi states might be affected if a paycut was implemented?? I would say not. Obviously less pay equals less tax and knowing that lot, probably looked over.

How CIE and Dub Bus can resist pay cuts is exactly the same argument as the public sector workers put forward. I accpet the average salary in the two above compnaies are a lot less than the average wage in the public sector as a whole but the fact remains, those companies are competing for a shrinking market and one which is receives 75% of their business from the private sector. i.e downward pressures on wages and thus fares.

Paycuts would simply reduce the amount of Subvention required!!

[Macy]

The reduction in the rates of pay accross the economy I think generally is accpted as A way forward but on it's own obviously won't be enough.
Only by ideological position - unfortunately the Government (and by extension RTE) and the main opposition party, along with those that control the media, subscribe to that view. Wages are only 10% of the ESB's costs, and their prices are set by a regulator who is artificially setting the price high to encourage competition (Government Policy). So what benefit is there for cutting the ESB wages, bar as another example to use against others?


These private sector wages have been falling long before any mention of public sector cuts. (ask the cars sales man or anybody else dependant on commision for their part of their salary etc etc)
That's not what the figures say. It's also not what many commentators are saying now that Public Sector wages have been cut.


How CIE and Dub Bus can resist pay cuts is exactly the same argument as the public sector workers put forward. I accpet the average salary in the two above compnaies are a lot less than the average wage in the public sector as a whole but the fact remains, those companies are competing for a shrinking market and one which is receives 75% of their business from the private sector. i.e downward pressures on wages and thus fares.

Paycuts would simply reduce the amount of Subvention required!!
As far as I'm aware, there are ongoing negotiations going on in the CIE Group over cost savings. Agreement would be better than a disruptive strike.

[Fr Damo]

As far as I'm aware, there are ongoing negotiations going on in the CIE Group over cost savings. Agreement would be better than a disruptive strike.Why is strike the first word on public sector and semi state lips? Seriously, it is the last thing I would do.

[NeilMcD]

Why is strike the first word on public sector and semi state lips? Seriously, it is the last thing I would do.

Macy had just decimated your argument there with facts and you pick one little bit out of it that you can get your teeth into.

[Macy]

Why is strike the first word on public sector and semi state lips?
It's actually the last thing, or else they wouldn't be in bloody negotiating would they?


Seriously, it is the last thing I would do.
It is the last thing that Unions use, once other avenues have been exhausted.

No chance of you addressing the point about why ESB workers should have their wages cut?

[Fr Damo]

It's actually the last thing, or else they wouldn't be in bloody negotiating would they?

It is the last thing that Unions use, once other avenues have been exhausted.


No chance of you addressing the point about why ESB workers should have their wages cut?


I am not a member of any union and therefore hands up I am not fully aware of their mechanics. But I work for an SME, my wife works for a US multinational. Never once been a strike in either with about 95 years of being in business. No unions present. Strikes may well be the last resort but it's the "first" weapon used in anger.

On the ESB, How about this..... By your own analysis, they are earning super normal profits on the back of artifically high prices set by the regulator. They are not as profitable as they protray.

Inflation is @ -5.5% meaning their spending power is increasing at about 9% this year. It's simply wrong.
Thirdly, as a major customer of mine, I have seen they are as bloated as areas of the public sector. It costs about 80 euro to rasie a purchase order, Go to accounts, get a procurement note, go to purchasing get an order number, then the order is placed. They have even paid us twice, many times.......We refund them, howmany other do? It happens as the delivery note with the goods gets into the payments system as indeed does the offical VAT invoice.
And then look at their age profile.
They are earning money for Jam, isn't the average wage in their about 75k, and sparks all over the country signing on?

[Macy]

I am not a member of any union and therefore hands up I am not fully aware of their mechanics. But I work for an SME, my wife works for a US multinational. Never once been a strike in either with about 95 years of being in business. No unions present. Strikes may well be the last resort but it's the "first" weapon used in anger.
No the first weapon is usually something that doesn't effect members core pay, even in anger. Non cooperation, overtime bans, work to rules etc. would generally be first. Even in anger strikes are a last resort. I'm pleased you both work for employers that you don't feel the need for collective protection, collective agreements etc. Many are not so lucky, and many more aren't so lucky but have been taken in by anti union spin so won't organise.

On the esb... So basically just because some of the workers are on a decent wage (which you clearly have a problem with others having) and you've had a few bad experiences (probably not with the people on the big money that bring up the average). Not because it's going to make any difference to either the cost of the esb to customers, increase their profitability much (if wages are only 10% of their costs), or even increase customer service. The only possible benefit is to make bitter people feel better in seeing suffering of fellow workers, and for it to be used to drive down other workers salaries.

[NeilMcD]

I am not a member of any union and therefore hands up I am not fully aware of their mechanics. But I work for an SME, my wife works for a US multinational. Never once been a strike in either with about 95 years of being in business. No unions present. Strikes may well be the last resort but it's the "first" weapon used in anger.

On the ESB, How about this..... By your own analysis, they are earning super normal profits on the back of artifically high prices set by the regulator. They are not as profitable as they protray.

Inflation is @ -5.5% meaning their spending power is increasing at about 9% this year. It's simply wrong.
Thirdly, as a major customer of mine, I have seen they are as bloated as areas of the public sector. It costs about 80 euro to rasie a purchase order, Go to accounts, get a procurement note, go to purchasing get an order number, then the order is placed. They have even paid us twice, many times.......We refund them, howmany other do? It happens as the delivery note with the goods gets into the payments system as indeed does the offical VAT invoice.
And then look at their age profile.
They are earning money for Jam, isn't the average wage in their about 75k, and sparks all over the country signing on?



The reason ESB wages are where they are is that they will never be replaced. These workers are the last of a kind and the ESB have made a calculation that this is the most profitable way for them. In future it will be most contractors possibly from other countries and much lower wages and much lower conditions and there will probably be more electricians on the dole as a result of this. The ESB are training apprentices over the next few years but hard to see them taking any permanent workers on. Basically because of multi nationals and sme's and worker not having untions, workers rights have been eroded over the last 20 years. Instead of people seeing that as the problem they turn on those that do have a union and decided to protect themselves against the whims of capitlalism and the markets and the likes of Goldman Sachs are there type. Wake up and smell the coffee, it is your right to be in a trade union and to represent yourself and to get the best conditions for you and your fellow workers. When you decide to go on a solo run, you do not have the right then to give out about those that did make that decision. Hop into bed with the devil and be prepared to get burnt.

[bennocelt]

Was trying to think of things that one can introduce into a budget that wont have people foaming at the mouth and can get broad support - but its difficult

Was suggested in the Times recently and by a few others - a tax on texts? Maybe one cent or so every time you send one. That wouldn't be too bad

Maybe a tax on winnings in bookies - between 1 - to 5%, small but enough to bring in a few million every year.

Anybody have any good ideas?:)

[Fr Damo]

The reason ESB wages are where they are is that they will never be replaced. These workers are the last of a kind and the ESB have made a calculation that this is the most profitable way for them. In future it will be most contractors possibly from other countries and much lower wages and much lower conditions and there will probably be more electricians on the dole as a result of this. The ESB are training apprentices over the next few years but hard to see them taking any permanent workers on. Basically because of multi nationals and sme's and worker not having untions, workers rights have been eroded over the last 20 years. Instead of people seeing that as the problem they turn on those that do have a union and decided to protect themselves against the whims of capitlalism and the markets and the likes of Goldman Sachs are there type. Wake up and smell the coffee, it is your right to be in a trade union and to represent yourself and to get the best conditions for you and your fellow workers. When you decide to go on a solo run, you do not have the right then to give out about those that did make that decision. Hop into bed with the devil and be prepared to get burnt.Neil, you've proved my point. Using the ESB as an example they have seen they can get the work subbed to the private sector and save money in the longer run. This must mean they have been ineffecient. Rather simplistic but it's a fact. These contractors are already doing the ESB work in places (KN Networks, TLI in kerry) Thankfully Irish businesses and largely ex semi state employees.

Now i'm off to smell the coffee as my employeer is quite understanding and lets me have a cup around this time. Then again I was on the road at 5am on tuesday morning, to Belfast, Dungannon & Omagh back to belfast international airport and home to Athlone for about 8.3pm That would have taken a semi state or public employee three days. Overnight on monday night, days work on Tuesday. Overnite in Belfast and back to athlone for Wednesday. That's the private sector in a recession for ya!!

[NeilMcD]

Neil, you've proved my point. Using the ESB as an example they have seen they can get the work subbed to the private sector and save money in the longer run. This must mean they have been ineffecient. Rather simplistic but it's a fact. These contractors are already doing the ESB work in places (KN Networks, TLI in kerry) Thankfully Irish businesses and largely ex semi state employees.

Now i'm off to smell the coffee as my employeer is quite understanding and lets me have a cup around this time. Then again I was on the road at 5am on tuesday morning, to Belfast, Dungannon & Omagh back to belfast international airport and home to Athlone for about 8.3pm That would have taken a semi state or public employee three days. Overnight on monday night, days work on Tuesday. Overnite in Belfast and back to athlone for Wednesday. That's the private sector in a recession for ya!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vByOKe0Uk2w

[Fr Damo]

http://www.paulgogarty.com/

you have something in common

[dahamsta]

Less of the bitchiness lads, it's just plain childish.

Woe betide the day when the ESB workers are replaced by contractors btw, it'll be the day that the Irish electricity network starts falling apart. Our electricity workers are incredibly talented and their skills are in demand around the world. They're no HSE middle managers and I have to say, if I was them, I'd be offended by the tendency of some here to lump them all together.

The other tendency I see a lot here is Cure-All Politics. You'd think ye'd get by now that it doesn't exist.

[Macy]

Neil, you've proved my point. Using the ESB as an example they have seen they can get the work subbed to the private sector and save money in the longer run. This must mean they have been ineffecient. Rather simplistic but it's a fact. These contractors are already doing the ESB work in places (KN Networks, TLI in kerry) Thankfully Irish businesses and largely ex semi state employees.
How dare workers earn a decent wage with decent terms and conditions! We were told the race to the bottom didn't exist, now it's apparently a good thing? Eventually they'll come for your job.

[Fr Damo]

dahamsta

I broadly agree with you re: the ESB. The Brits are going to be goosed in the next ten fifteen years, they sold the power generation to the French!

As I said earlier they are a customer, so i regret they became the meat in this sandwich.

[Fr Damo]

How dare workers earn a decent wage with decent terms and conditions! We were told the race to the bottom didn't exist, now it's apparently a good thing? Eventually they'll come for your job.

Not if I pull my weight, keep an eye out for opportunities and move with the times.
And the point is if we all do that, public and private, semi state we have a chance of getting FDI back here. I'm sorry, but I cannot see how were are going to get 100,000 people off the dole without investment from outside this state. I guess, expectations will just have to be lowered. We have little to offer the glogal economy that they cannot get else where at the moment. We are farmers, and we make chemicals and computer chips, none of which are indegenous.
Jan February and March are going to be the bleakest yet. I'd also put money on a second budget next year. Corporation Tax to be increased.

[Macy]

FDI would be attracted more if we went back to having low electricity prices - like we had before competition.

[NeilMcD]

Less of the bitchiness lads, it's just plain childish.

Woe betide the day when the ESB workers are replaced by contractors btw, it'll be the day that the Irish electricity network starts falling apart. Our electricity workers are incredibly talented and their skills are in demand around the world. They're no HSE middle managers and I have to say, if I was them, I'd be offended by the tendency of some here to lump them all together.

The other tendency I see a lot here is Cure-All Politics. You'd think ye'd get by now that it doesn't exist.

Fair enough, but I think if someone makes a silly jibe about how much work they done it does deserve a sarcastic jibe.

On the ESB workers you have hit the nail on the head, the company is profitable because of its international reputation. They have requested many times to bring down the price of the bill but they have been refused by the regulator as supposedly, competition is good for price. So ESB are not allowed drop their price while Bord Gais and others are allowed in order to introduce competition. To me this is ideology before reality.

Its seems that some here are happy to let workers lose all the rights that were gained over the last years in order to attract foreign investment. If are only selling point to the world is that are workers are prepared to take it up the ass time and time again, we do not have much going for us.

This at the same time as we sell off natural resources like the gas pipeline off the west coast of Ireland and fail to looking into securing our own energy future by letting the ESB do the great job they have done for the last 80 or 90 years.

[Fr Damo]

Fair enough, but I think if someone makes a silly jibe about how much work they done it does deserve a sarcastic jibe.

On the ESB workers you have hit the nail on the head, the company is profitable because of its international reputation. They have requested many times to bring down the price of the bill but they have been refused by the regulator as supposedly, competition is good for price. So ESB are not allowed drop their price while Bord Gais and others are allowed in order to introduce competition. To me this is ideology before reality.

Its seems that some here are happy to let workers lose all the rights that were gained over the last years in order to attract foreign investment. If are only selling point to the world is that are workers are prepared to take it up the ass time and time again, we do not have much going for us.

This at the same time as we sell off natural resources like the gas pipeline off the west coast of Ireland and fail to looking into securing our own energy future by letting the ESB do the great job they have done for the last 80 or 90 years.


We were all happy to work for companys like Dell in limerick, they paid a fair days pay for a fair days work. It worked both ways I'm sure.We then started to look for cheaper computers, volumes were falling with more competition so dell moved to Poznan. That's life, they couldn't do business here. Ok, an extreme example but those workers and contractors down there got a reasonable reward or they would have left out of their own volition.
What rights were gained and taken away? Who is getting it up the ass? Jack O Connor at his best(worst).

The only right I want right now is food, shelter and they can be provided with a job. Loose my job, i loose my shelter. Maslows Heirarchy of needs. Have a look at it.

The Gas off Mayo is OT and not getting into it but to ask, do you think this Government would have made a go of it and made more money at it than the royalties they secured on future production? Maybe I am the synic, but it would have over ran on budget and time and actually probabaly not have been even started yet as we argued who the contractors should be! not to mention Gormless and his crew. For God sake, we made a bol!x of refurbing our peat factories! Bord N Mona, aren't they semi state?

[NeilMcD]

We were all happy to work for companys like Dell in limerick, they paid a fair days pay for a fair days work. It worked both ways I'm sure.We then started to look for cheaper computers, volumes were falling with more competition so dell moved to Poznan. That's life, they couldn't do business here. Ok, an extreme example but those workers and contractors down there got a reasonable reward or they would have left out of their own volition.
What rights were gained and taken away? Who is getting it up the ass? Jack O Connor at his best(worst).

The only right I want right now is food, shelter and they can be provided with a job. Loose my job, i loose my shelter. Maslows Heirarchy of needs. Have a look at it.

The Gas off Mayo is OT and not getting into it but to ask, do you think this Government would have made a go of it and made more money at it than the royalties they secured on future production? Maybe I am the synic, but it would have over ran on budget and time and actually probabaly not have been even started yet as we argued who the contractors should be! not to mention Gormless and his crew. For God sake, we made a bol!x of refurbing our peat factories! Bord N Mona, aren't they semi state?



http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/bord-na-mona-operating-profit-soars-6pc-to-836424m-1831795.html

Look it seems you have an outlook on life that you are thankful for your lot and sure got bless the good lads for giving you some water and bread. If that isyour outlook, I don't think we will get far with this debate. There is a small minority of people who are making huge profits at the expense of the vast majority of people in the world at the moment. Its happening on a Global scale with African and other countries and then within a domestic scale with the elite in this country who are all patting each others backs and making sure they are not touched after this recession. At the same time people are bickering over private sector v public sector and whyether someone is earniing 60,000 grand or 45,000. Talk about taking the eye off the ball and not spotting the real enemies. I have no problem with people making vast amounts of money from innovation, or unique talent or hard work etc, but the financial industry and banking industry got involved in the mechanics of capitalism rather than just playing a supporting role to industry and innovation. They should be a Mascherano rather than a Riquelme.


Finally on the point, we were all happy to work for employers like Dell, eh, no we weren't. Some chose to do so. I personally would not work for a company that does not allow Unions into its company. Not saying Dell don't by the way, dont know the inner workings of it.

http://www.newstatesman.com/non-fiction/2009/12/markets-fail-cassidy-economics

[Macy]

Finally on the point, we were all happy to work for employers like Dell, eh, no we weren't. Some chose to do so. I personally would not work for a company that does not allow Unions into its company. Not saying Dell don't by the way, dont know the inner workings of it.

As far as I'm aware they don't. Consequently, the employee's were kept in the dark for years, despite rumours of work moving to Poland, and when it came down to it some felt so let down by the redundancy they got, that they belatedly organised themselves as a workers committee (i.e. a Union) to negotiate a fairer package.

[Fr Damo]

Thanks for the links.

I see the CEO took a paycut of 7.5% as Chairman Fergus McArdle (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Fergus+McArdle) said that given the challenging climate, it would be "inappropriate and undesirable" to effect pay increases. He said the managing director (Gabriel D'Arcy) had agreed to take a voluntary pay cut of 7.5pc and similar reductions had also been accepted by the board.

This allows cap exp as i mentioned earlier as "The group capital spend last year was €30.5m compared with €24.4m the previous year."

and i note, "Like other state-owned companies, Bord na Mona has a major deficit on its pension funds. Mr D'Arcy said the company is holding discussions with the employees on the future of these funds and that it is hoped to eliminate the deficit -- about €45m -- within the next 10 years. This will involve adjustments to both contributions and to benefits to scheme members."

As per Maslows triangle there is a segment for everyone in society, the trouble is / was, there were too many people who wanted be in the top tiers. I am afraid to say there is going to be a massive re adjustment, where the bottom couple of segments will be our targets.

I never once mention bankers and developers, I have been as shafted as the next man (negitive equity, insurance products pensions and endowments in decline) but what can be done about it? The banks own land and buildings that are worth about half (or more ) what they lent out. Balance sheets are shod.

Why did this happen is down to human fraility, as per the book and obvioulsy a lack of regulation and tbh i'm not into post mortims on this one. What can be done about it? Nowt in reality.

On your point about the unions, i personally would never Join one.

[Fr Damo]

As far as I'm aware they don't. Consequently, the employee's were kept in the dark for years, despite rumours of work moving to Poland, and when it came down to it some felt so let down by the redundancy they got, that they belatedly organised themselves as a workers committee (i.e. a Union) to negotiate a fairer package.

A works council is not a Union.

[Macy]

A works council is not a Union.
It wasn't a works council, but the point is they organised.

[NeilMcD]

Thanks for the links.

I see the CEO took a paycut of 7.5% as Chairman Fergus McArdle (http://www.independent.ie/topics/Fergus+McArdle) said that given the challenging climate, it would be "inappropriate and undesirable" to effect pay increases. He said the managing director (Gabriel D'Arcy) had agreed to take a voluntary pay cut of 7.5pc and similar reductions had also been accepted by the board.

This allows cap exp as i mentioned earlier as "The group capital spend last year was €30.5m compared with €24.4m the previous year."

and i note, "Like other state-owned companies, Bord na Mona has a major deficit on its pension funds. Mr D'Arcy said the company is holding discussions with the employees on the future of these funds and that it is hoped to eliminate the deficit -- about €45m -- within the next 10 years. This will involve adjustments to both contributions and to benefits to scheme members."

As per Maslows triangle there is a segment for everyone in society, the trouble is / was, there were too many people who wanted be in the top tiers. I am afraid to say there is going to be a massive re adjustment, where the bottom couple of segments will be our targets.

I never once mention bankers and developers, I have been as shafted as the next man (negitive equity, insurance products pensions and endowments in decline) but what can be done about it? The banks own land and buildings that are worth about half (or more ) what they lent out. Balance sheets are shod.

Why did this happen is down to human fraility, as per the book and obvioulsy a lack of regulation and tbh i'm not into post mortims on this one. What can be done about it? Nowt in reality.

On your point about the unions, i personally would never Join one.

If you dont understand history you are forever going to repeat it. Sounds like you are in the we are where we are school. We can learn from the colapse and create a fairer world soceity. Very hard for Ireland to do on its own. But instead we seem to be setting ourselves and going from a Super Capitalist state to a Hyper Capitalist state were the less well off and unfortunate in society get further screwed time and time again. In relation to housing and negative equity, I just decided not to buy a house or a car as I did not need to own either.

Fair play on the CEO taking a cut, and sure why not, but does not mean why the workers on the average wage in Bord Na Mona should take one. Personally they shoudl try to bring in a law across Europe that makes it illegal for a company to reduce wages for people or let people go if they are making profits.

[Fr Damo]

I agree on the paycut thing but in fairness to him he did it out of a moral duty as it would be "inappropriate and undesirable" I think he said.

I'm all for learning from our past mistakes, but too busy with the here and now.
In terms of people being laid off if someone can prove their position is not redundant they can take their employeer for unfair dismisal. If it's to protect profits, and doesn't hinder output within a company, that's a fair game also. (provided theposition is redundant) While it's not something I could see myself doing for the sake of one salary worth of profit, if it turned a 50k loss into a 100k profit by cutting five heads then of course it'd be done. That 100k gives me a chance to expand over the next couple of years as things pick up perhaps take the five heads plus another five back on.
Neil, I am not a tycoon, I follow Athlone Town, I play Junior soccer, I am the same as you though we have different views on how to get out of this mess. We owe a bank more than the house is worth (bout - 50k) and i am simply going to get on with paying my morgtage, cos all the huffing and puffing isn't going to change a thing. But I need to economyto pick up to safe guard my job.

[NeilMcD]

Great article, by the brilliant Ben Goldarce. I know he is speaking about the UK but the theory behind his argument runs through for here if the figures do not match up exactly.

http://www.badscience.net/2010/01/if-you-want-to-be-trusted-more-claim-less/#more-1455

[Fr Damo]

Having scanned the article quickly it's a fair point, but then why were the jobs and in turn pay ,(Public / private,) linked (in Eire!) in terms of benchmarking on the way up?

[NeilMcD]

Having scanned the article quickly it's a fair point, but then why were the jobs and in turn pay ,(Public / private,) linked (in Eire!) in terms of benchmarking on the way up?

I agree.