Budget 2009

[dahamsta]

Dude, he's channelling a bank boss. In the Indo.

[Mr A]

It is reported in various places that excise on alcohol will be reduced in the budget. Much as I enjoy a pint, this seems like a daft move in an almost broke country with serious issues with drink.

[passinginterest]

It is reported in various places that excise on alcohol will be reduced in the budget. Much as I enjoy a pint, this seems like a daft move in an almost broke country with serious issues with drink.

Just been talking about this (ranting) in the office it's appalling, truly sickening, the single most damaging drug in the country and it seems to be about the only thing getting cheaper in this budget.

If there was ever any doubt that vintners and developers run the country this budget will be the definitive proof.

[Ringo]

Just been talking about this (ranting) in the office it's appalling, truly sickening, the single most damaging drug in the country and it seems to be about the only thing getting cheaper in this budget.

If there was ever any doubt that vintners and developers run the country this budget will be the definitive proof.

Its an attempt to stop people shopping over the border . Most people are going for the booze. The argument is that it will bring in more money and help raise revenue.

[Mr A]

If that is the case then it should only apply to off sales and not pubs (which very few people cross the border for)... can't see that being the case.

[Longfordian]

The proposed 25c cut wouldn't make any noticeable difference to the savings that can be made on off licence booze across the border from what i can see. I really can't see it as anything but a sop to the publicans.

[passinginterest]

So far my reaction is ouch!

Hitting the low an middle incomes more than expected I think, I'd expect a big reaction from the unions of the lower paid, it's not going to be pretty.

[mypost]

JA/B Rates:

Age 21 and below: €100 per week
Age 22-24: €150 per week
Above 25 standard rate: €196 per week

[Ringo]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1209/budget2010_main.html

Main Points

•Dole payments cut by €8 a week (with additional cuts for under 23s)
•Child benefit (lower and higher rate) reduced by €16 per month
•Excise duty on alcohol reduced - 12c cut on beer and cider, 14c cut on a measure of spirits, 16c cut on a bottle of wine
•No change on tobacco tax
•50c charge for every medical card prescription from April
•Carbon tax of €15 per tonne
•Hospital consultants will see their pay cut by up to 15%
•Irish domicile levy of €200,000 per year for high net worth individuals
•New 'universal social contribution', which will replace employee PRSI, the Health Levy and the Income Levy
•Public servants' pensions to be linked to average salary across career, rather than final salary
•Taoiseach's salary to be reduced by 20%
•Mortgage interest relief - Extended to 2018 for those who now find themselves in negative equity
•Flood relief - More than €70m to be given to help victims and stop future floods
•Taoiseach's salary to be cut by 20%
•National Solidarity Bond aimed at small investors to be launched

[saint dog]

JA/B Rates:

Age 21 and below: €100 per week
Age 22-24: €150 per week
Above 25 standard rate: €196 per week

About right id say
saving about 3.5million a week on that alone

[Longfordian]

Scrappage scheme announced. Get 1500 off VRT when you trade in a 10 year old or older car for a new low emission one.

[NeilMcD]

JA/B Rates:

Age 21 and below: €100 per week
Age 22-24: €150 per week
Above 25 standard rate: €196 per week


Is this based on them living at home or not. I wonder if it is based on them living at home,will it just drive people out of the home, and on to rental accomodation and to claim rent allowance and get the full dole and rent allowance and it to cost more money in the long run. Or is it a straight based on age with no regard to circumstances.

[saint dog]

Is this based on them living at home or not. I wonder if it is based on them living at home,will it just drive people out of the home, and on to rental accomodation and to claim rent allowance and get the full dole and rent allowance and it to cost more money in the long run. Or is it a straight based on age with no regard to circumstances.

rent allowance is another joke , for the life of me cant see any reason why a tax payer should pay someone elses rent ,

[NeilMcD]

Well where should someone live if they are on the dole. There is an argumennt, that all it does is drive up rent prices and goes straight the pockets of landlords. A criticism of the system is valid but a criticism of the idea that people deserve a place to live if they cannot look after themselves is the basis of a modern fair society.

[eamo1]

Typical Ireland-put the price of a Pint down(just barely) in the budget and that gets some of the headlines and discussion time,pathetic.

[bennocelt]

Just been talking about this (ranting) in the office it's appalling, truly sickening, the single most damaging drug in the country and it seems to be about the only thing getting cheaper in this budget.

If there was ever any doubt that vintners and developers run the country this budget will be the definitive proof.

Exactly, so how many pints would one have to drink to be able to get the price of a new pint? 10,15 or 20?

[Fr Damo]

The pay cut announced yesterday.

5% up to 30%
7.5% for the next 40
10% for the next 55.

Can some one tell me if Tds pay is being cut as per public servents on similar pay?

EG lets take A Td who was on 120k this day last year.
They toke the voluntry cut of 10% reducing their pay to 108k.

Then the above clicks in, i.e

5% up to 30%
7.5% for the next 40
10% for the next 55

Meaning a reduction of another 8300. Is their new gross pay 99.7k?

Or

is the above just applied to the 120k to start with (i.e prior to the vol cut?)

This would mean the pay in Jan 2010 would be 110.5k?

Anyone, Anyone, Bueller? Anyone?

[Ringo]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/1210/1224260419652.html


There will be many editorials written about the harshest budget in the history of the State. Suffice to say, on first reading, that the decisions taken rise up to the occasion financially. They were courageous, bold, above party politics, above sectional interest and they appear to have put the country first. Whether they are a programme for recovery remains to be seen. But, right or wrong, as some of them may be seen in coming days, at least there was an attempt to lead from the front.

Some €4 billion in public spending cuts was administered. The political waffle was kept to a minimum. There was a political consciousness that the decisions had to be fair. The high-earners were affected proportionately. The public service pay cuts were scaled. The welfare reductions will make life miserable for those in need. But public opposition may be muted because of the balanced manner in which income cuts have been made.

[Macy]

It is reported in various places that excise on alcohol will be reduced in the budget. Much as I enjoy a pint, this seems like a daft move in an almost broke country with serious issues with drink.
And they are trying to portrait it as a stimulus measure! Nama for the Developers and Bankers, now a price cut for the publicans. Party Interest trumps National Interest, again. It will make sod all difference to cross border shopping, we're still more expensive.

Fr Damo, the headline cuts for clowen and his ministers includes the 10% cut taken previously. So Ministers are actually only taking the same cut as someone under €30K. But, it actually gets worse, as because someone under €30k pays little or no tax, they get hit for the full 5% whereas it nets off at 2.5% for the Ministers paying at top rate and full levies. How's that for fairness and sharing the pain?

Saint Dog, The State shouldn't be paying rent allowance, but they do because of the failure to build enough social housing. Sure even when FF did introduce the measure to make a certain percentage of new estates social housing, they folded to their buddies and let them buy it out rather than provide the housing. Rent Allowance obviously also a subsidy to developers as well, particularly now they can't sell and have to rent. A win win for FF.
.

[saint dog]

Well where should someone live if they are on the dole. There is an argumennt, that all it does is drive up rent prices and goes straight the pockets of landlords. A criticism of the system is valid but a criticism of the idea that people deserve a place to live if they cannot look after themselves is the basis of a modern fair society.

you live at home until you can afford to rent or buy a house not until
you get given a house for little or nothing being paid for by the tax payer
to greedy landlords

[NeilMcD]

What happens if you do not get on with yoru parents. What happens if you grow up in an abusive house and you have to move out of home. I am presuming you were lucky enough to grow up in a loving home, where you could stay to be an adult. Not everybody has this in life.

[saint dog]

you pay rent , like i had to when i moved out
then i begged borrowed and saved to buy a house , now its in negative equity
but yet people living near me pay €100 a month rent claim left right and centre and have never worked a day in their life ,so wheres the fairness in that

[Mr A]

I welcome the fact that the budget has gone for the full 4 billion promised but elements of it are disturbing.

The price of drink thing is a joke, as is pretending that's why people are shopping in the North. It may be part of it, but housewives are not driving from Dublin to Newry just because the Bud is cheaper.

Reducing the unemployment rates for the young just looks like a not particularly coded message to graduates to emigrate. If your stamps are paid you should have the same entitlement as everyone else, simple as that.

While I can see the logic of the proposal to reduce the rates for anyone refusing a job, it probably should be more nuanced than that. Should somebody who has just lost their job as an architect be forced to work in Supermacs a week later? So while I agree with the general sentiment, the devil is in the detail and I don't trust this government not to screw it up completely.

And why reduce payments for the disabled, the blind etc but leave pensioners untouched? Because they went mental last year of course. A very dangerous message, as the Irish Times pointed out and probably will contribute to industrial unrest in the coming weeks.

[Royal rover]

I welcome the fact that the budget has gone for the full 4 billion promised but elements of it are disturbing.

The price of drink thing is a joke, as is pretending that's why people are shopping in the North. It may be part of it, but housewives are not driving from Dublin to Newry just because the Bud is cheaper.

Reducing the unemployment rates for the young just looks like a not particularly coded message to graduates to emigrate. If your stamps are paid you should have the same entitlement as everyone else, simple as that.

While I can see the logic of the proposal to reduce the rates for anyone refusing a job, it probably should be more nuanced than that. Should somebody who has just lost their job as an architect be forced to work in Supermacs a week later? So while I agree with the general sentiment, the devil is in the detail and I don't trust this government not to screw it up completely.

And why reduce payments for the disabled, the blind etc but leave pensioners untouched? Because they went mental last year of course. A very dangerous message, as the Irish Times pointed out and probably will contribute to industrial unrest in the coming weeks.

I wouldn't expect an architect to work in supermacs - but at the same time if i had a choice between the dole and say 350 a week i know what i would do - F**K the pride thing - your right on the price of drink - i think this should of been cut significantly more 70/80 cents - the country wants to get rid of as many young people as possible - in fairness i can understand the logic of it - welcome back to the 1980's

[NeilMcD]

you pay rent , like i had to when i moved out
then i begged borrowed and saved to buy a house , now its in negative equity
but yet people living near me pay €100 a month rent claim left right and centre and have never worked a day in their life ,so wheres the fairness in that

So someone who is 21 moves out and should pay rent on 100 euro a week.

[Mr A]

Just for clarity- I don't think reducing the price of drink was anything other than a sop to the vintners. It should have been left alone.

[dahamsta]

The VRT reduction is ridiculous too.

[centre mid]

As a private sector worker with no children I have been left relatively untouched, petrol & gas increase aside. While I welcome the decisions to cut the €4 billion this year I'm still very concerned by the budget.

I applaud the government for taking a tough line with the public sector and making the pay cuts as they have now lost countless tens of thousands of votes at the next election. There are still huge reforms to be made to the way the public sector is run. I believe these are still to come and their is definetly some social unrest to come over the next 2-3 years. Which in itself may not be a bad thing, I think the body politic needs a huge shake up.

Next years budget will no doubt be even tougher, not just for the public sector, for the whole country. The changes to income tax and PRSI are going to be crucial. The abolition of mortgage interest relief is also crucial. I'm not exactly sure how it will impact yet but with interest rates set to rise after the first quarter of next year, it causes me to worry.

Social Welfare cuts do seem to be wrong. The concept of social welfare being a carrot not to work doesnt sit well with me, as far as I can see we have no coherent job creation policy. I agree that it is a fairly blunt "leave" to our youth. When the economy does eventually turn, we will have lost a generation. Whether it will help the country recover it will untimately being very destructive to the nation to lose another generation.

Its good that the government are taking decisive decisions now as opposed to the 80's when succesive goverments of all parties refused to make any hard decision. Thus keeping the country in recession for longer than was needed.

I fear next years budget could be the end of us if the world economy doesnt lift us this year.

[passinginterest]

I applaud the government for taking a tough line with the public sector and making the pay cuts as they have now lost countless tens of thousands of votes at the next election. There are still huge reforms to be made to the way the public sector is run. I believe these are still to come and their is definetly some social unrest to come over the next 2-3 years. Which in itself may not be a bad thing, I think the body politic needs a huge shake up.


The problem is the reform will now be made impossible by the unions who will refuse to engage with the Government, the deal that was rejected at the last minute contained a huge amount of reforms, particularly in the health sector, that would have hugely benefitted the country as a whole but it was thrown out the window in a fit of panic. The "tough line" was in fact an easy way out, the ruling party have realised that they won't be re-elected anyway at this stage so they went for the short term measure, leaving the serious reform to whoever succeeds them, it was cowardly at best.

Just to give an idea of what was thrown away and will now never happen here's a summary from the ICTU news release after the talks broke down;

· No reduction in any services as a result of the temporary unpaid leave measure
· A guarantee of “no impact on the length and structure of the school year or class contact” and an additional working hour by every teacher each week
· Explicit agreement on the redeployment of civil and public servants within and between organisations to ensure better delivery of priority services as budgets and staffing declined
· A process to deliver an extended 8-8 working day in the health services, leading to longer opening hours
· The introduction of new rosters in health - including the introduction of new nursing rosters by January 2011 – leading to more flexible services and a further reduced overtime budget
· Ongoing reductions in the number of in-patient beds and increases in day care, outpatient and diagnostic capacity, in order to provide faster access to services at lower cost
· A greater range of health services in community settings so that more patients could receive treatment at home
· Reviews of health service staffing ratios and skills mixes to help improve patient care at minimal cost
· New value-for money and waste elimination programmes
· The introduction of shared services in health, local authorities, education and the civil services – in areas like finance, procurement, human resources and payroll.
· The introduction of evidence-based performance measurement in health
· The extension of competitive and merit-based promotions at all levels throughout the public services
· Multi-disciplinary working and reporting arrangements in health
· The supervision and substitution scheme for post primary teacher to be made more flexible
· New procedures for redeploying surplus teachers
· A review of the teaching contract to remove impediments to teaching and learning
· A comprehensive review and revision of special needs assistant employment terms and conditions to identify and remove any impediments to efficient and effective support for students with special care needs
· Cooperation with the restructuring and rationalisation of the VEC sector
· Cooperation with rationalisation of state agencies in the local government sector
· Better management and standardisation of annual and sick leave arrangements
· Changes to civil service opening and closing times and attendance arrangements
· The further development of on-line and e-services.
The deal would also have included a new ‘transformation commission’ with independent leadership, charged with ensuring the implementation of the package.
Temporary savings measures – necessary because the transformation programme would not have delivered the required permanent savings in 2010 - were also on the table to ensure the necessary payroll savings in 2010. The savings would have come from an agreed progressive valuation of 12 days unpaid leave.

[centre mid]

..But also neccesary.

[passinginterest]

..But also neccesary.

Reform is necessary, punishing low paid workers and short term planning is disastrous.

[dahamsta]

Who blinked though?

[centre mid]

I agree entirely but the wages bill had to be cut. Reform and value for money should be a prerequisite, not just done when times are hard. Value for money has to be achieved from the SME's right up to the largest of multi-nationals.

[passinginterest]

Who blinked though?

Unions are adamant it was the Government, but they would say that, it's hard to know what to believe, but an opportunity for serious and necessary reform was lost and is not likely to present itself again any time soon.

[saint dog]

So someone who is 21 moves out and should pay rent on 100 euro a week.


They certainly should not be "entitled " to a home at the expence of the tax payer

[NeilMcD]

So where do they live saint. Answer the question. Put them on the street remember they cant move home as their parents could be dead, or drunks or abusive or they may not have a good relationship with their parents.

[dahamsta]

Unions are adamant it was the Government, but they would say that, it's hard to know what to believe, but an opportunity for serious and necessary reform was lost and is not likely to present itself again any time soon.Someone should be pinning it down. No one is willing to take blame in this country and that's a serious issue imho. The whole Bertie / Tony /Dubya "that's in the past now" attitude has to go away. Irish people need to stand up and demand accountability, and sackings. Not resignations, sackings.

[saint dog]

So where do they live saint. Answer the question. Put them on the street remember they cant move home as their parents could be dead, or drunks or abusive or they may not have a good relationship with their parents.


your talking worse case senario to which the only amswer i can give you is i dont know, but i dont think the state should house someone whos excuse is "i need to move out cause i dont get on with me ma "
i dont know anyone in that situation but i do know people who have never worked have no intention in getting work but yet were givin a home for little or nothing and have more dispossable income than a lot of people who work hard , so while their out buying new clothes new cars socialising the hard worker is killing himself /herself to make ends meet .

[Mr A]

I've never come across anyone who has never worked but has a new car and a lot of disposable income like you mention. I've heard a few people talk about them, but never actually come across them. Except maybe some criminals, but that's a whole different ball game.

[saint dog]

I've never come across anyone who has never worked but has a new car and a lot of disposable income like you mention. I've heard a few people talk about them, but never actually come across them. Except maybe some criminals, but that's a whole different ball game.

try west dublin

[Macy]

I applaud the government for taking a tough line with the public sector and making the pay cuts as they have now lost countless tens of thousands of votes at the next election.
Cutting public sector pay was the easy decision, not a hard one, in the climate the Government and others have created.

Nothing on job creation, still no overall plan (they're already talking about looking for next year), no stimulus. And you applaud this budget?

btw, I was flicking between them, but on either Morning Ireland or Newstalk this morning there was someone saying (I think from the ERSI) that now public sector wages have been cut, we must look at the private sector given the figures show they haven't been cut. Well done to all those that fell into the trap.


Someone should be pinning it down.
I thought it had been pinned on the Government. If they didn't believe there was a basis, then they wouldn't have called of the strike. Garret Fitzgerald has been especially damning of the whole farce today. I can't see a deal being done with the current Government.

[brendy_éire]

I don't think the reduction in VAT and reduction off duty on drink will do anything to halt cross border shopping. What maybe affect it more is the rumoured UK VAT rate increase to 17% (maybe Lenihan knows about it already?).

What will affect cross border trade is the carbon tax. It'll effectively kill off the difference between petrol prices north and south of the border.

[Macy]

I don't think the reduction in VAT and reduction off duty on drink will do anything to halt cross border shopping. What maybe affect it more is the rumoured UK VAT rate increase to 17% (maybe Lenihan knows about it already?).
It was never to do with that, it's just the cover. And if it was, they would've just applied it to the off trade.

[OneRedArmy]

I think the budget was fairly uninspired and took the easy choices as a few people above have said. The national solidarity bond could be useful, but we need a lot more detail on it.

I'm disappointed, but not surprised, that there was nothing meaningful in terms of the job creation and investment fronts. This government is bereft of ideas and intelligence, but then we knew that already.

I'm equally disappointed that pretty much every finding of the McCarthy report was kicked to touch. I'm not sure why its generally accepted that any sense of structural reform in the public sector needs union approval? Reform, modernisation and evolution happen in the daily life of most businesses without a second thought, why is it such a big deal in the public sector and only happen as part of negotiation?

There's no doubt in my mind that the public sector wage cuts are being used for dual purposes, i.e. primarily to shrink the gap between government spending and revenue but also as a by-product to drive private sector wages down (David Begg's constant reference to a competitive devaluation in the absence of control of currency or interest rates). Whilst nobody actually wants to see this happening, I'm not sure there is any real way to stimulate growth in a small open economy without doing this? Whatever about the governments lack of ideas and support for job creation, I can't see any economic way of fostering exports with costs at current levels, other than pressing the nuclear button and taking our chances outside the Eurozone.

[centre mid]

Cutting public sector pay was the easy decision, not a hard one, in the climate the Government and others have created.



A tough line not a tough decision.

At least they are finally making a decision. Social partnership is now well and truly dead, rightly or wrongly we are in a different era now.

[Reality Bites]

I am broadly happy with the Budget, Why? because I am a Private sector worker who lost his Job five months ago.

Ultimately the elephant in the room was Public sector paybill it had to be tackled in order to restore some form of stability in government finances and public confidence. Yes it is sad for lower paid workers in public service who are already finding it difficult to cope with increased taxes from previous budgets now they have to accept 5% cut, But on the plus side the cost of living has decreased by 6%.

You cannot have a sucessful economy without the Private sector which has been bludgeoned over the past eighteen months with severe pay cuts and job losses. The public sector pay is driven by the success in private sector, if there is not relative balance between both then we simply cannot stay competitive as a country in an open economy. Whats the alternative appease Unions with ridiculous 12 days off plan and totally confuse an already huge bureaucratic beast.

This country lost its way under that Gob****e Bertie Ahern everybody must now take the pain and simply get on with it, I know I am even without a Job.

[Macy]

You cannot have a sucessful economy without the Private sector which has been bludgeoned over the past eighteen months with severe pay cuts and job losses.
And what was in the budget to create jobs and stimulate the economy. Again I ask, you are happy with the budget?

[centre mid]

Nothing on job creation, still no overall plan (they're already talking about looking for next year), no stimulus. And you applaud this budget?

No, I'm worried by the budget, but I applaud that they have finally made a decision. I made the same point about there being now coherent job creation policy.


btw, I was flicking between them, but on either Morning Ireland or Newstalk this morning there was someone saying (I think from the ERSI) that now public sector wages have been cut, we must look at the private sector given the figures show they haven't been cut. Well done to all those that fell into the trap.


ERSI say there has been no decrease in wages in the private sector, SME & IBEC say there has. Anyone who says there has been no wages reduction in the private sector is talking manure. Virtually no job security, not knowing month to month if your company is going to survive, a pension that is worhtless at this stage.

[Reality Bites]

And what was in the budget to create jobs and stimulate the economy. Again I ask, you are happy with the budget?

Good Point...I had little hope of a stimulus package in first place, circa €950 million was taken off capital spending which we are now told is mitigated in build tender prices now coming 20% lower than previous years. Beyond capital spend and infrastructural improvement for the moment I cannot think of anything that stimulate growth in the short to medium term in a open economy.

[NeilMcD]

How about a public works scheme that would prevent floods. It would both future proof the houses and business of thousands and also prevent employment and it could be a public private partnership with the insurance industry whose interest it would serve as it would prevent further claims in the future.

Holland spend over a billion a year on flood prevention.