Budget 2009

[Reality Bites]

ERSI say there has been no decrease in wages in the private sector, SME & IBEC say there has. Anyone who says there has been no wages reduction in the private sector is talking manure. Virtually no job security, not knowing month to month if your company is going to survive, a pension that is worhtless at this stage.[/QUOTE]

I can only compare my anger to the ESRI statement to that with Thierry Henry and Sepp Blatter.. As an unemployed private sector worker, to say that there has been no pay cuts in private sector is nothing short of a comparison with Holocaust deniers. The ESRI are a disgrace!


How about a public works scheme that would prevent floods. It would both future proof the houses and business of thousands and also prevent employment and it could be a public private partnership with the insurance industry whose interest it would serve as it would prevent further claims in the future.

Holland spend over a billion a year on flood prevention.

Yes I agree, but not yet I think this will require huge planning and consultation, advice and budgetry examination before its put on the table. A huge Civil engineering undertaking in years to come but not a short /medium term boost.

[centre mid]

I believe they changed the Planning Act a couple of years ago so that large captial projects that are deemed vital can be rushed through by the Minister for the Environment.

[Reality Bites]

I believe they changed the Planning Act a couple of years ago so that large captial projects that are deemed vital can be rushed through by the Minister for the Environment.

I'm talking more about the technical aspects rather then the legal planning issues.. I think the design engineering detail will be very complex and something that will take a long time in engineering planning before its viable and workable solution.

[NeilMcD]

Can anyone defend the fact that yesterday that Ministers took an effective 2.5 per cent cut to their net income while those on less than 30,000 in the public sector took a 5 per cent cut to their net income.

[saint dog]

Can anyone defend the fact that yesterday that Ministers took an effective 2.5 per cent cut to their net income while those on less than 30,000 in the public sector took a 5 per cent cut to their net income.

Not a chance

[Macy]

I believe they changed the Planning Act a couple of years ago so that large captial projects that are deemed vital can be rushed through by the Minister for the Environment.
They only actually apply that to really important things, like co-located hospitals, where big business gets to benefit.


ERSI say there has been no decrease in wages in the private sector, SME & IBEC say there has. Anyone who says there has been no wages reduction in the private sector is talking manure
It's actually CSO stats afaik that don't show a reduction. That followed an IBEC study that found only 9% of workers had taken reduction. Apart from that it's all anecdotal.


Can anyone defend the fact that yesterday that Ministers took an effective 2.5 per cent cut to their net income while those on less than 30,000 in the public sector took a 5 per cent cut to their net income
Fellow workers in the public sector had their wages cut - don't spoil the party.

[bennocelt]

I wouldn't expect an architect to work in supermacs - but at the same time if i had a choice between the dole and say 350 a week i know what i would do - F**K the pride thing - your right on the price of drink - i think this should of been cut significantly more 70/80 cents - the country wants to get rid of as many young people as possible - in fairness i can understand the logic of it - welcome back to the 1980's

by working in Super macs? :(


I agree entirely but the wages bill had to be cut. Reform and value for money should be a prerequisite, not just done when times are hard. Value for money has to be achieved from the SME's right up to the largest of multi-nationals.

I agree, but shouldnt we start at the top - are we getting value for money from FF/Green frog coalition. What about Drumm getting over 400,000 for running the health service into the ground?


I've never come across anyone who has never worked but has a new car and a lot of disposable income like you mention. I've heard a few people talk about them, but never actually come across them. Except maybe some criminals, but that's a whole different ball game.

Really? wow - I know loads of people like this. Sister has a good friend with her 2008 BMW, on the social, heading to the North the other day with over a 1000 euros for shopping!!!
Then I know a good few fellas spending there days drinking and gambling with their dole money - not that Im very against that idea (at least its a good recreational activity).
Then have a few relatives on the disability - jesus its hilarious considering the amount of money they have in the bank and there arent much wrong with them - certainly nothing physical
There is a good bit of abuse of this system

[NeilMcD]

Lads we do need to seperate enforcement of the system and the policy of the system. All the anectotal evidence above suggests that more resources, and I am not necessarily saying more money but more staff and resources put towards greater enforcment of the social welfare rules. Combine it with revenue and you could save a fortue to the state.

However what we should not do is deny the rights of those who need and are entitled to it.

[dahamsta]

Sister has a good friend with her 2008 BMW, on the social, heading to the North the other day with over a 1000 euros for shopping!!!And you have of course reported them for this? Because unless you have, you have no right to complain about it.

It's the Oirish way, bitch about he-saids and she-saids in the pub, and never lift a feckin' finger to actually do something about it.

[osarusan]

Lads we do need to seperate enforcement of the system and the policy of the system.
Agreed. I'm not seeing the logic of the argument that the ease with which welfare fraud can be commited means that welfare should be cut.

How about investing a 5-10 million euros in a task force charged with fighting welfare fraud. It would pay for itself very soon.

I remember reading in the Irish Times about a year ago (so no link to a source, sorry) that tax evasion costs the government more than welfare fraud. The govt had revently cut the budget for the tax fraud task force (or maybe even doen away with the task force altogether), even though it had brought something like 600 million euros in revenue, and a % higher than 50 of tax evaders are repeat offenders.

[saint dog]

Lads we do need to seperate enforcement of the system and the policy of the system. All the anectotal evidence above suggests that more resources, and I am not necessarily saying more money but more staff and resources put towards greater enforcment of the social welfare rules. Combine it with revenue and you could save a fortue to the state.

However what we should not do is deny the rights of those who need and are entitled to it.

this is the bit that annoys the be jaysus out of me though

[osarusan]

this is the bit that annoys the be jaysus out of me though

It annoys the "be jaysus" out of you that the govt provides financial assistance to those that truly need it?

[NeilMcD]

Agreed. I'm not seeing the logic of the argument that the ease with which welfare fraud can be commited means that welfare should be cut.

How about investing a 5-10 million euros in a task force charged with fighting welfare fraud. It would pay for itself very soon.

I remember reading in the Irish Times about a year ago (so no link to a source, sorry) that tax evasion costs the government more than welfare fraud. The govt had revently cut the budget for the tax fraud task force (or maybe even doen away with the task force altogether), even though it had brought something like 600 million euros in revenue, and a % higher than 50 of tax evaders are repeat offenders.

Yeah says it all, this is the sort of intelligent and informative thinking we need in relaton to this. Not some guy next door to me is driving a great car and is on the rocking roll etc etc. That sort of anger while understandble does not achieve anyting both for the indidual and for society in general.

[saint dog]

It annoys the "be jaysus" out of you that the govt provides financial assistance to those that truly need it?

ah but the question is , do they ?
some might but believe me many dont

[osarusan]

ah but the question is , do they ?
some might but believe me many dont
The quote was saying it is important not to deny assistance to those who need it.

The whole point of his post is that the problems of welfare fraud should not have consequences for those truly in need.

[saint dog]

Im not even talking about the fraud side of things im talking about the criteria that quilifies people to be "entitled" to hand outs

[NeilMcD]

Another issue is the increase in the drugs repayment scheme. Instead of saving loads of money by buying generic brands of drugs and saving the state a fortune, they have favoured big business again and targeted the sick by increasing the ceiling by 25 per cent In an area where they are trying to drive down costs this is sicking, pardon the pun.

[osarusan]

Im not even talking about the fraud side of things im talking about the criteria that quilifies people to be "entitled" to hand outs

Fair enough, but in that case should you not be asking for the eligibility criteria to be reviewed, rather than just wanting cuts for everybody?

[NeilMcD]

I remember reading in the Irish Times about a year ago (so no link to a source, sorry) that tax evasion costs the government more than welfare fraud. The govt had revently cut the budget for the tax fraud task force (or maybe even doen away with the task force altogether), even though it had brought something like 600 million euros in revenue, and a % higher than 50 of tax evaders are repeat offenders.

Saint DOg have you just ignored this post then. Or is it that those that are defrauding the state millions of euros in tax are out of sight and out of mind and the guys who are commiting social welfare fraud are living near you. I am only presuming this from your posts by the way.

[saint dog]

Fair enough, but in that case should you not be asking for the eligibility criteria to be reviewed, rather than just wanting cuts for everybody?

Absolutely , and have stated this before along with the fact that there should be various different amounts paid out depending not just on your age but on the amount of time youve worked and be out of work for .
along with bringing in fingerprint ids so no-one can get away with fraud or at least cut it down

[osarusan]

there should be various different amounts paid out depending not just on your age but on the amount of time youve worked and be out of work for .

There already are varying amounts depending on marital status and number of children.

Regarding the amount of time you've worked, would this not mean that a person could end up entitled to no social welfare from the state? I don't want to live in a country which treats people like that. There has to be a minimum, which has just been cut.

Regarding how long you've been out of work, I think it's dangerous to make a link between amount of time out of work and lack of desire to get a job. In some cases it is obviously true, but not all. And again, I think there has to be a minimum amount.

[NeilMcD]

Just to let people know that anyone who is also on jobseekers allownce they will be just cut the 8 euro regardless of age.

The 50 per cent and 25 per cent only applies to anybody who becomes uneployed after the 31st of December.

[saint dog]

There already are varying amounts depending on marital status and number of children.

Regarding the amount of time you've worked, would this not mean that a person could end up entitled to no social welfare from the state? I don't want to live in a country which treats people like that. There has to be a minimum, which has just been cut.

Regarding how long you've been out of work, I think it's dangerous to make a link between amount of time out of work and lack of desire to get a job. In some cases it is obviously true, but not all. And again, I think there has to be a minimum amount.

not no social welfare but not the full amount
there are people on it years , i personally think thats disgraceful
and so is only cutting the 50% and 25% for people applying aafter dec

[NeilMcD]

Just find it strange that social welfare is the focus of your rage when there is far worse fraund and tax evasion going on. Not defending it whatsoever and social welfare fraud needs to be cut out and they should invest in a task force.

[bennocelt]

And you have of course reported them for this? Because unless you have, you have no right to complain about it.

It's the Oirish way, bitch about he-saids and she-saids in the pub, and never lift a feckin' finger to actually do something about it.

I understand all that but reporting to the authorities is also not the done thing where I am from.
As long as I have my own house in order and not into fraud, and also never expect too much (or anything!) from the government then I think that's enough.
I dont expect anyone to do anything, free will and all that, but I am allowed to make observations, and sure I wouldnt be an Irish man if I didn't complain.:)

[John83]

...and sure I wouldnt be an Irish man if I didn't complain.:)
Wasn't that in the budget? You have to bitch about 200 things next year or hand in your passport?

Neil, while I see your point, I think social welfare fraud is just being talked a lot currently because it's in the news. I don't recall people talking about it much even a few months ago, whereas tax evasion and even tax avoidance have been provoking heated discussion here at least since Haughey's tax exemption for artists in the late 80s and the big off-shore accounts stuff in the (mid? late?) 90s.

[Dodge]

But they have at least tried to close some of the social welfare loopholes John...

[Macy]

I think social welfare fraud is just being talked a lot currently because it's in the news. I don't recall people talking about it much even a few months ago
Of course, RTE's timing of the programme was pure coincidence and in no way doing the Governments bidding, yet again. The effect can be seen on this thread - the focus on the few fraudsters rather than the majority who will suffer, and don't deserve to, because of the cuts.

[John83]

But they have at least tried to close some of the social welfare loopholes John...
They've been fairly consistently chasing tax evasion for about a decade now.

Meanwhile, there was some proposal to charge €200,000 per year to Irish passport holders with a certain level of assets overseas. I think it's a pretty retarded way to chase down tax avoidance, maybe even illegal, but they do seem to be thinking about the subject.

I'm not saying it's all entirely balanced - almost inevitably, it's not, as I don't credit FF with an over-abundance of joined up thinking - but I don't think it's entirely as lopsided as some would claim.


Of course, RTE's timing of the programme was pure coincidence and in no way doing the Governments bidding, yet again. The effect can be seen on this thread - the focus on the few fraudsters rather than the majority who will suffer, and don't deserve to, because of the cuts.
Is proposing silly conspiracy theories a national hobby or something? I can in no way imagine a situation where a current affairs programme would focus on a topic which has been discussed substantially in the recent months. :rolleyes:

Certainly, there's a possibility that the reason it's in the news in the first place is a certain amount of FF media manipulation, direct and indirect.

[elroy]

Just find it strange that social welfare is the focus of your rage when there is far worse fraund and tax evasion going on. Not defending it whatsoever and social welfare fraud needs to be cut out and they should invest in a task force.

Out of interest what tax evasion are you talking about??

As an aside, I know the Revenue have substantially increased their efforts and audits in recent times to bring in extra cash and by and large it has worked.

Overall I thought the Budget was quite good, provided what was needed but perhaps couldve gone further on the stimulus side and job creation. As ever with the budget I will be surprised if 90% of what was announced will actually be implemented in the Finance Act. I cant see the level of cuts to public sector pay sticking, as necessary as I think they are.

[Macy]

Is proposing silly conspiracy theories a national hobby or something? I can in no way imagine a situation where a current affairs programme would focus on a topic which has been discussed substantially in the recent months. :rolleyes:
The content isn't the issue, the timing of the broadcast stinks. If you choose to believe RTE is independent that's your perogative. Even ignoring the fact it's stacked with FF heads in key programmes, the way their news often reports various stories (from The Tribunals to the Shell to Sea protests) with a total lack of balance suggests otherwise to me.

[dahamsta]

I understand all that but reporting to the authorities is also not the done thing where I am from.I don't care what the "done thing" is, and you should be embarassed by your neighbourhood if that's the case. You can get a SIM card from Tesco for €3; free with €10 worth of credit. Go and buy one and report it, or stop complaining. You have no right to complain if you don't have the balls to report it. That's if it's actually true, because I've heard more of these me-grannys-sisters-aunt-knows-a-guy than I care to hear.

Produce evidence, complain to the authorities, or be quiet and stop embarassing yourself and your neighbourhood.

[saint dog]

Just find it strange that social welfare is the focus of your rage when there is far worse fraund and tax evasion going on. Not defending it whatsoever and social welfare fraud needs to be cut out and they should invest in a task force.

mainly because its what we were talking about.
and again im not talking about the fraud side of things
just the attitude that you would be better off on the dole , which many people decide to go down that road and turns out they are which to me is terribly unfair that a family with neither parent working can have more than a family with both parents working because its their rights , where is the fairness in that

[dahamsta]

According to Gilmore (http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1211/budget2010.html), no-one blinked, Gov.ie threw their toys out of the plan on purpose. I think what's more relevant about that article is that Labour were able to stall the bill "on a number of occasions" by calling for a quorum. At one of the most important times in the legislative year, none of our elected representatives can actually be bothered to turn up.

Their pay shouldn't be cut, it should be index-linked to attendance.

[bennocelt]

I don't care what the "done thing" is, and you should be embarassed by your neighbourhood if that's the case. You can get a SIM card from Tesco for €3; free with €10 worth of credit. Go and buy one and report it, or stop complaining. You have no right to complain if you don't have the balls to report it. That's if it's actually true, because I've heard more of these me-grannys-sisters-aunt-knows-a-guy than I care to hear.

Produce evidence, complain to the authorities, or be quiet and stop embarassing yourself and your neighbourhood.

Nope, not a snitch never was - that's not my business.
Balls!!! Ha ha that's funny - that's totally not the case - I guess we just have different characters and backgrounds.

Also you kind of missed a point as well (although I wasnt strong in making it!) - most of these people are entitled to the dole, they have "reasons" to be on it. Its the system that is the problem and people taking advantage.

Complaining? Yeah sure, but again my post was also in response to someone who said he never see this carry on - it was a response to say it does happen and a lot. People ARE abusing the social welfare system and because THEY CAN.

[Fr Damo]

Adam, linking it to attendance would be a start, but I think TDs pay scales should have been docked further anyway, independant to the general Public service cut.

I'd like to ask How many Tds took a paycut in becoming a public representitive? Very few,,, yes there are Doctors, the odd lawyer and even barrister who no doubt add value to the Dail but there are some who had they not had the balls, cute whorism skills (sic) & a bit of pull would remain in the private sector earning an average industrail wage. It's a fact the private sector had determined their nett worth (through the salary, position in industry etc they had attained prior to election) and in my mind a true indication of the wastage we have.
Yes we need to make it attractive to get the right caliber of person but how many son's of Tds are elected simply because of who they are?

(Mods, move this to Public sector cost cutting if it's OT)

[saint dog]

Nope, not a snitch never was - that's not my business.
Balls!!! Ha ha that's funny - that's totally not the case - I guess we just have different characters and backgrounds.

Also you kind of missed a point as well (although I wasnt strong in making it!) - most of these people are entitled to the dole, they have "reasons" to be on it. Its the system that is the problem and people taking advantage.

Complaining? Yeah sure, but again my post was also in response to someone who said he never see this carry on - it was a response to say it does happen and a lot. People ARE abusing the social welfare system and because THEY CAN.

this basically sums up my point

[NeilMcD]

Nope, not a snitch never was - that's not my business.
Balls!!! Ha ha that's funny - that's totally not the case - I guess we just have different characters and backgrounds.

Also you kind of missed a point as well (although I wasnt strong in making it!) - most of these people are entitled to the dole, they have "reasons" to be on it. Its the system that is the problem and people taking advantage.

Complaining? Yeah sure, but again my post was also in response to someone who said he never see this carry on - it was a response to say it does happen and a lot. People ARE abusing the social welfare system and because THEY CAN.

Who said they never see this carry on. Just curious.

[dahamsta]

I'll be honest with you bennocelt, I don't believe the story you told, and I have my doubts you do, because if you did and you had an ounce of respect for yourself, the people around you, and your country, you'd report it.

You also seem manifestly incapable of coming up with a solution to the problem you're highlighting - and I'm not per se denying, by the way - another typical trait of the barroom Oirish bitcher. There are three possible solutions to the problem:

1) What Fianna Fail are doing, which is frankly what I'd expect of them. Juvenile, imbecilic, badly thought out, transferance of the problem.

2) A network of social welfare investigators swathing the country, swooping on social welfare recipients on a regular basis to try to catch them out. I'm surprised FF didn't try passing this off on the Oirish as a solution to the employment problem. Howja like that in your area?

3) Irish people doing their duty and reporting obvious, major abuses of the system. You call that snitching, which is your right. I call that secondary school level opinion, and while I'm not surprised by it, I am embarrassed by it. You should be to. This is Ireland, not Compton.

adam

[bennocelt]

I'll be honest with you bennocelt, I don't believe the story you told, and I have my doubts you do, because if you did and you had an ounce of respect for yourself, the people around you, and your country, you'd report it.

3) Irish people doing their duty and reporting obvious, major abuses of the system. You call that snitching, which is your right. I call that secondary school level opinion, and while I'm not surprised by it, I am embarrassed by it. You should be to. This is Ireland, not Compton.

adam

So now I'm lying:( -
Yeah cause its beyond the realms of possibility that for example a young single woman with a few kids can get a nice wad of money from the social and have a man handing her some dough as well every week
Or that young men with nothing to do all day spend there time in the pubs and betting shops
Or that a couple can be on disability benefit - which apparently they are entitled to be on - but heh aren't we all a bit sick in the head anyway!

I live in Ireland - if I had to spend my whole day reporting dodgy behaviour I would get tired fairly quickly
Its not the done thing, if people want to do these things that's their business - I mean the system would be on their side after all

[dahamsta]

So now I'm lyingAnother secondary-level response. I didn't say you were lying, I said I don't believe the story. It's second-level hearsay: maybe your sister is lying, maybe she's mistaken, maybe it's exaggerated; I neither know nor care at this stage, I just don't believe it. I think it's rubbish.

Will you swear at me like Paul Gogarty (http://www.irishelection.com/2009/12/****-you-deputy-stagg/) next, to try to distract from your inability to come up with a solution to a problem that you're unable to prove, or quantify?

If you want to highlight a problem, with evidence, and talk about how it can be fixed, you're welcome in Current Affairs. If you just want to bitch and moan about some story, do it in the pub or the break room in work.

[Ringo]

I believe certain people over the age of 65, if social welfare is being cut, could also take a 1% or 2% cut, instead of the blind, the carers and other sectors

http://www.irishelection.com/2009/12/****-you-deputy-stagg/


It is wrong that nothing was taken of rich over 65's because they vote & are vocal.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/selfpitying-whining-from-usual-suspects-1973083.html

Self-pitying whining from usual suspects


This is the atmosphere which is now being forged in Ireland, whereby hardworking small business people who have taken risks to try and do something for themselves and their families are treated like absentee landlords sponging off the blameless lower classes. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. It's the middle classes in Ireland who pay the bills. Class envy never wrote a single dole cheque or funded a single operation.

[bennocelt]

Another secondary-level response. I didn't say you were lying, I said I don't believe the story. It's second-level hearsay: maybe your sister is lying, maybe she's mistaken, maybe it's exaggerated; I neither know nor care at this stage, I just don't believe it. I think it's rubbish.

If you want to highlight a problem, with evidence, and talk about how it can be fixed, you're welcome in Current Affairs. If you just want to bitch and moan about some story, do it in the pub or the break room in work.

Me? ha ha I am a very calm person actually and quite relaxed:)
Well I do see her driving her big 2008 reg to collect my sister now and again from the house, her good friend and all -my eyes me eyes...........

Solution - yeah you have had a huge amount to offer yourself?
Who is moaning and bitchin? Are we not allowed to make observations and comment?

My solution is that the social should be means tested more fairly (maybe a total revamp) - I mean it does seem to be all over the place, with some people getting what they don't really deserve, while others who are on it getting nearly not enough.

[dahamsta]

I offered 3 solutions, are you blind? You claim you can see this woman driving her 2008 BMW, which would seem to suggest it, but you also seem to have supersight that that can pick out large wads of cash inside people's pockets, and long-range tracking to see them in other countries, and even what they're doing in those other countries. Plus of course you use your other spidey-senses to sense her drawing the dole.

So, since you actually appear to have better senses that everyone on the planet, you'll be able to refer back the second solution I offered, which is what will be required to police your proferred solution. Are you happy to have a massive network of social workers flood your area day after day? Are you happy to pay their wages out of your taxes? Because it's the only way of ensuring that such a shallow plan actually works.

Means testing is of course needed, but suggesting it as the solution is the kind of thing I'd expect from a Fianna Fail politician. Perhaps you should join up, it's about your level.

[Dodge]

For the record all social welfare claimants are means tested. A friend of mine is entitled to less than €40 per week as his wife works

[dahamsta]

I think he's aware of that, he's suggesting it should be "more fair". Whatever that means.

I was means tested for the dole 20 years or so ago, and because I lived at home they means-tested my parents too; despite the fact that I was a rent-paying adult. I can't remember the actual amount they came up with, but I do remember it being less than the cost of the bus.

(I'm not suggesting we should do away with means testing, and I agree it needs reform. But in my case the reform would have needed to go in the other direction to be fair. IMHO of course. This whole idea that mammy and daddy should support the babies until they're 50 is a joke.)

[bennocelt]

I offered 3 solutions, are you blind? You claim you can see this woman driving her 2008 BMW, which would seem to suggest it, but you also seem to have supersight that that can pick out large wads of cash inside people's pockets, and long-range tracking to see them in other countries, and even what they're doing in those other countries. Plus of course you use your other spidey-senses to sense her drawing the dole.

So, since you actually appear to have better senses that everyone on the planet, you'll be able to refer back the second solution I offered, which is what will be required to police your proferred solution. Are you happy to have a massive network of social workers flood your area day after day? Are you happy to pay their wages out of your taxes? Because it's the only way of ensuring that such a shallow plan actually works.

Means testing is of course needed, but suggesting it as the solution is the kind of thing I'd expect from a Fianna Fail politician. Perhaps you should join up, it's about your level.

Heh Dahm man you are really insulting me now comparing me to that shower -thanks:(
Calm down, I have a sister you know - woman can get all this info pretty easy.
But if people pay into the system surely their entitlements should be better?

[dahamsta]

Seriously bennocelt, save it for the pub. This forum isn't your level.

(It's been pointed out that Foot.ie is about the level of the pub, which makes it difficult to peg bennocelt's level. Kindergarten perhaps, or the Dail.)

[Macy]

It didn't take long for the public sector pay cuts to be used to try and drive down other wages. Not predictable at all :rolleyes:

Shows you how far the Greens have gone that it's them raising it. Mind you, handy to concentrate on pay of the worker when it's competition for competitions sake that is driving prices of our utilities.


“Everybody should examine what’s going on in relation to pay rates. We need to restore competitiveness to the economy. We need to ensure that those that are operating in the commercial sector act commercially,” he said.

Link (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/1215/1224260714350.html)

[bennocelt]

Seriously bennocelt, save it for the pub. This forum isn't your level.

(It's been pointed out that Foot.ie is about the level of the pub, which makes it difficult to peg bennocelt's level. Kindergarten perhaps, or the Dail.)

Again with the insults - about your level in fact - maybe get off the high horse, perhaps?
Just because you couldn't comprehend that there are people who do quite well off the dole - wow