European Parliament Elections 2009

[anto1208]

Funniest thing over all this election is Ganley calling for a recount because his "independent viewers" spotted the votes being counted wrong, a recount was called he got less and the other 3 all gained ! :D

[sligoman]

Ganley has decided to quit politics...big loss:p.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Funniest thing over all this election is Ganley calling for a recount because his "independent viewers" spotted the votes being counted wrong, a recount was called he got less and the other 3 all gained ! :D

Saw that! Not just a few votes either - about 3000 (yes ...three thousand) that were put on his shelf quite by accident.
:D

[holidaysong]

Kathy Sinnott also looking like missing out in the South. Add in Mary Lou McDonald and it's a terrible weekend for the anti-Lisbon camp. :)

[Réiteoir]

Ganley has decided to quit politics...big loss:p.

I'm smoking a big fat cigar on hearing of that news

mypost to be gutted on hearing that his Poster Boy for the NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Vote on Lisbon has decided to take his ball home

[pete]

Kathy Sinnott also looking like missing out in the South. Add in Mary Lou McDonald and it's a terrible weekend for the anti-Lisbon camp.

Ganley decision really is the cherry on the cake. :D:D:D

[Mr A]

Exceptional performance by Labour to take 3 Euro seats, I don't think anybody saw that coming!

[dahamsta]

Sad to see Sinnott losing out to a Labour spammer. She's the only MEP that ever sent me a reply of substance, and followed up afterwards too. Crowley has been consistent in replying to nothing at all, in any format whatsoever. I can't see what the electorate sees in him. Probably just the thick Fianna Fail voters missing the miniscule FF logo on his posters.

G'luck and good riddance Ganley. Leave the country in a huff while you're at it, and take that other huffy fairy McDowell with you.

I'll cream myself with joy when Gormless goes, I just hope Clever Trevor steps up to the plate and keeps that lying sack of pig poo Ryan out of it.

[mypost]

mypost to be gutted on hearing that his Poster Boy for the NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Vote on Lisbon....

:confused:

He accepted the verdict of the electorate, which other political parties haven't in the past and still refuse to do. He also got the closest of any Libertas candidate to gaining a seat in Brussels, a lot more than the "5" votes that Michael O'Leary predicted he'd get last Christmas. It's still a shame that a FF candidate was elected instead, after what they've done to the people.:rolleyes:

As for the so-called "terrible" weekend for the "No to Lisbon" camp, good to see that Joe Higgins made Eoin Ryan take a running jump in Dublin. :)

However, the weekend shows up the utter shambles of having to count the results manually via the stone-age paper system, instead of via e-voting. The fact that 3,000 votes could be distributed in error, and results in a small country taking until Monday to be announced is a joke in this day and age.

[Dodge]

and results in a small country taking until Monday to be announced is a joke in this day and age.

Whats the rush?

[Aberdonian Stu]

I'll cream myself with joy when Gormless goes

Ah now dahamsta, that's an image none of us need, especially shortly after logging on first thing in the morning at work.

[mypost]

Whats the rush?

With that attitude, we may as well wait until November, when the new Brussels MEP term begins.

Once the day for the results arrives, they should be released promptly, not leaving the electorate and candidates wondering if votes have been distributed, and counts taking up to 2 days* to complete. 3,000 incorrect votes can swing a poll. It's mad!!

*more if it's a general election.

[Macy]

Sad to see Sinnott losing out to a Labour spammer.
I'm personally delighted, not just because of another Labour gain, but another right wing nutjob gets the boot. I'm sure she'll carry on talking nonsense like the MMR causing autism and the like...


He accepted the verdict of the electorate,
After spitting the dummy after the first count with his missing wheelie bin nonsense, and only then did he take his ball home.


Once the day for the results arrives, they should be released promptly, not leaving the electorate and candidates wondering if votes have been distributed, and counts taking up to 2 days* to complete 3,000 incorrect votes can swing a poll
It would probably help if sore losers who can't believe they polled so low didn't come up with suprious reasons for a recount! We would've had the North West results probably on Sunday night/ early hours Monday, or before lunch on Monday even if they had suspended the count.

Votes went missing in the evoting trials, with whole booths going missing. They even kept the random selection of surpluses when that could've been one of the few benefits of evoting to get true proportionality. 3000 votes is only about 0.6% of the ballot.

[Dodge]

With that attitude, we may as well wait until November, when the new Brussels MEP term begins.

Once the day for the results arrives, they should be released promptly, not leaving the electorate and candidates wondering if votes have been distributed, and counts taking up to 2 days* to complete. 3,000 incorrect votes can swing a poll. It's mad!!


I'll repeat, whats the rush?

[bennocelt]

I've made no secret of the fact that I’ve voted & been a member of FF in the past. .

see, i knew :cool:


anyway - FF get 3 in the Euros - all this talk about the country and people still vote for them

of course you can have your excuses in - "its a Euro elections so Im voting for pro-europe candidates", etc or "local issues are different"
rubbish, FF are corrupt right down to the bone
In my country - Westmeath -- they have given a huge support to FF - despite Mullingar hospital downgrading, and the town hasnt got anything goping fopr it at the moment (athlone though is thriving!).
I cant understand it - then people vote for FG and they will do exactly the same when they get to power.

Anyway good to see Higgins (a no to lisbon voter) do so well - kind of shows up a lot of the pro - lisbon rubbish spouted

Sorry if i go on about it - but I still cant get my head round the fact that 2 out of every ten Irish people are ................well you know what I think!!!!

anyway thank god for football!!!

[pete]

For the European elections they did not start the count until Sunday as they are not allowed to release the 1st count results until 9pm Snday when all the polls across Europe close. Waiting until Monday for result including rechecking votes seems fairly quick to me. Waiting until next week would be slow.

[Magicme]

I had a dream last night that Ganley had stolen my sheets and duvet covers. I jumped out of bed and ran through the house shouting, "Ganley you f*****" then realised I was sleep running.

Wonder was he trying to make Clan headgear or just looking for something to hide under.

Dingdong the devil is dead, in Ireland anyway. Britain just got 2 new ones.

[First]

I had a dream last night that Ganley had stolen my sheets and duvet covers. I jumped out of bed and ran through the house shouting, "Ganley you f*****" then realised I was sleep running.

Wonder was he trying to make Clan headgear or just looking for something to hide under.

Dingdong the devil is dead, in Ireland anyway. Britain just got 2 new ones.

It will be an interesting debrief when he goes back to his alleged paymasters and explains how he didn't fool enough of the dumb Irish to fall for his deceit and their agenda.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Ganley decision really is the cherry on the cake. :D:D:D

Sadly I don't think we've seen the last of him. I think his retirement will probably turn out to be about as enduring as one of Sinead O'Connors.

Even if he stays away from politics you just know some *£*&%££** in TV3 or RTE 'light entertainment' is scratching their chin as we speak thinking of a new angle for next seasons Apprentice or celebrity banisters.

[dahamsta]

Crap split here (http://foot.ie/forums/showthread.php?t=119176). Keep it on topic or you'll be banned from this forum.

[superfrank]

Just read in the Wicklow Times that the county council vote counting was delayed by three hours because they had to seperate the European votes from the CC votes.

I thought this was just because they would've had to seperate the Euro boxes from the others but then I remembered when voting, at least in the polling station I went to, the CC voting papers were put in the SAME box as the Euro ones, while there was a seperate box for the Bray Town Council votes.

So the delay was down to seperating the contents inside the boxes from each other. Am I the only who thinks this is madness? There were two boxes, why couldn't one be for the Euros and the other for CC/TC votes?

I'm surprised it didn't take longer when I think about it.

[Aberdonian Stu]

I'd say the simple reason is because people would still make mistakes about which box they put their ballots in and so they'd pretty much have to wait for all boxes to be open anyway in order to check for ballots that went in the wrong box.

[pineapple stu]

Didn't see any differences between the boxes on offer when I was voting, and none was pointed out; I just put all three together anyway.

[sligoman]

Like superfrank, I had to put the CC vote in with the European one, makes no sense.

It's a simple solution really, the three slips have three different colours so just have three boxes the same colour as each slip and then people will put them in the relevant box.

[Dodge]

It's a simple solution really, the three slips have three different colours so just have three boxes the same colour as each slip and then people will put them in the relevant box.

You're vastly over estimating the voting public.

Add in extra costs for procuring, storing and transporting 3 seperate (or 2 seperate depending on area) boxes and compare it to a measly couple of hours spent seperating them and I think they made the right call

[Schumi]

There was a separate box for the Dublin South by-election ballots so there is some inconsistancy. Dublin South is spread over two local authority areas though so there may have been extra hassle involved in separating them.

[Macy]

So the delay was down to seperating the contents inside the boxes from each other. Am I the only who thinks this is madness? There were two boxes, why couldn't one be for the Euros and the other for CC/TC votes?

They have to unfold and pile the ballots anyway, so seperating out European ballots isn't actually that much more work.

Also, it avoids mistakes that could disenfranchise people who put the slips in the wrong box. While that could happen with the Town council, if a paper is the wrong box it's at least in the same count centre (presuming they'd still count it), whereas the European elections are in a totally different centre, with a different count start date.

Finally, it's only 3 bloody hours anyway.

[dahamsta]

Add in extra costs for procuring, storing and transporting 3 seperate (or 2 seperate depending on area) boxes and compare it to a measly couple of hours spent seperating them and I think they made the right callJust take the guts out of the electronic machines, they've cost us a hundred times all of that already, might as well sing for their supper. Nobody wants them anyway.

[pete]

There was a separate box for the Dublin South by-election ballots so there is some inconsistancy..

Same in Dublin Central.

[Poor Student]

The European results in Northern Ireland are quite interesting. Allister's TUV polled quite strongly. If these votes translate into Westminister and Stormont elections then the Unionst vote is split roughly into three large blocks. If all three sides contend all constituencies then South Belfast will probably stay nationalist and SF may even nick one or two other constituencies on a highly split vote like Belfast North. In Stormont it could leave SF the biggest party. Who would be First Minister in that event? Could the parliament function without the TUV engaging in coalition? Or will they just fade away like the UKUP?

[holidaysong]

The European results in Northern Ireland are quite interesting. Allister's TUV polled quite strongly. If these votes translate into Westminister and Stormont elections then the Unionst vote is split roughly into three large blocks. If all three sides contend all constituencies then South Belfast will probably stay nationalist and SF may even nick one or two other constituencies on a highly split vote like Belfast North. In Stormont it could leave SF the biggest party. Who would be First Minister in that event? Could the parliament function without the TUV engaging in coalition? Or will they just fade away like the UKUP?

Martin McGuinness would be First Minister in the event of Sinn Féin being the largest party in the Assembly. I just don't see the TUV getting the same level of support in an Assembly or Westminster election, a lot of the vote had to do with Allister himself being an ex-MEP and having experience in Brussels. Plus all three sides definitely wouldn't contend constituencies in a first past the post election that could return a nationalist if the unionist vote split.

[mypost]

For the European elections they did not start the count until Sunday as they are not allowed to release the 1st count results until 9pm Snday when all the polls across Europe close.

That itself is a joke, but is beside the point.

Once the results can be released, it should be over and done with in a matter of minutes. Instead, the final seats were only confirmed late last night, well after they were sorted out everywhere else. Most of those countries had a vote, and got a result out on the same day.

In France, with 15 times our population, accurate poll results are known within seconds of the vote closing. Ours is a drip, drip, drip process. If Libertas hadn't called for a recheck, another candidate would have been denied votes which were rightfully his. That shouldn't be allowed to happen.

[sligoman]

Who would be First Minister in that event? Could the parliament function without the TUV engaging in coalition? Or will they just fade away like the UKUP?Off-topic here but just something I've always wondered...if Sinn Fein got into government here, who would be Taoiseach?:confused:

[Gather round]

The European results in Northern Ireland are quite interesting. Allister's TUV polled quite strongly. If these votes translate into Westminister and Stormont elections then the Unionst vote is split roughly into three large blocks

In summary: unionists 49.0%, nationalists 42.2%, others (Green and Alliance) 8.8%. Almost all of TUV's votes seem to have come from DUP.


If all three sides contend all constituencies then South Belfast will probably stay nationalist and SF may even nick one or two other constituencies on a highly split vote like Belfast North

TUV is unlikely to contest 18 constituencies, only those with a large unionist majority (led by Antrim North where Allister's support base is). Apart from not wanting to gift SF seats, the deposit is expensive!


In Stormont it could leave SF the biggest party. Who would be First Minister in that event? Could the parliament function without the TUV engaging in coalition? Or will they just fade away like the UKUP?

The government couldn't function with the largest party unable to get the support of a large majority of the Assembly. So McGuinness's period of office wouldn't be long- I'd guess about five minutes :)

TUV had a no challenge deal with the UK Independence Party in this election; the Ulster Unionists are now more or less back as the local wing of the Conservatives. It's possible that unionism as a whole may develop as a broad lobby across different parties, often disagreeing on issues but able to co-operate if only to keep SF out of office in Belfast.

[Dodge]

That itself is a joke, but is beside the point.


So what is the point then? The right people got elected, and they knew months before they take office. Seriously, does one day really matter?

[Macy]

Once the results can be released, it should be over and done with in a matter of minutes. Instead, the final seats were only confirmed late last night, well after they were sorted out everywhere else. Most of those countries had a vote, and got a result out on the same day.

Why? What real benefit would that be? We have a complex voting system - different countries have different systems. What's the rush? Does the count go on past your bed time on a school night?


In France, with 15 times our population, accurate poll results are known within seconds of the vote closing. Ours is a drip, drip, drip process. If Libertas hadn't called for a recheck, another candidate would have been denied votes which were rightfully his. That shouldn't be allowed to happen.
Surely it depends on electoral system and consituency size. And make up your mind - on the one hand you're criticising the speed of the result, the next you're praising someone who called a recheck for suprious, headline grabbing reasons.

[dahamsta]

In France, with 15 times our population, accurate poll results are known within seconds of the vote closing.Note the highlighted word. Are you seriously suggesting we reimplement electronic voting in Ireland? Don't you read the news?

[Mr A]

I really enjoy the drama and spectacle of the various counts, but would can see no real reason not to move to electronic voting at some point.

The main motivation for this would be to introduce true proportionality in the allocation of transfers from surpluses and to increase accuracy of counts. Each voter should receive a printout of their ballot as they vote, which they could check and then place in the ballot box as a paper trail in case of challenges.

It's incredible to me that such a simple concept was ballsed up the first time around.

[dahamsta]

It's not a simple concept, and until an open and free evoting platform is available, that can be reviewed not just by security experts but also by you and me if we so choose, it's not a viable option. Even then it may not be a viable option, when you consider that software of that description (linux, apache, etc), although less likely to be exploited because of peer review, can be and is exploited. That's the nature of software, unfortunately.

Of course it's not just software, there's also hardware and human error to take into account, and security remains a tradeoff we have to balance. Current evoting system though, have no balance. They're insecure and a danger to society.

As are politicians, obviously.

adam

[Mr A]

But that's were the paper trail comes in- you could even retain something like the current count system as a check after each election. It would be up to each voter to verify that their printed vote matches their entry on the machine and their intention obviously.

[Ringo]

I
The main motivation for this would be to introduce true proportionality in the allocation of transfers from surpluses and to increase accuracy of counts. .

I heard a debate on George hook about this only last week. The electronic system was still randomly distributing the surplus.

[pete]

I don't see that a paper print out can be seen as a guarantee of accuracy & security.

If the voter is just going to put the paper print out into a box for recounts surely that is just half a step forward as recounts will be done manually. Also you will probably get people looking to examine the paper votes post election so they can find errors & undermine the system.

The previous failed system seem to rely on secrecy for its security which is never a good way to develop systems. See dahamstas post.

[Mr A]

I heard a debate on George hook about this only last week. The electronic system was still randomly distributing the surplus.

That's pretty stupid. Even with the manual system it would be possible to distribute the votes fairly by looking at all the next preferences, yet there seems to be no inclination to do so.


I don't see that a paper print out can be seen as a guarantee of accuracy & security.

If the voter is just going to put the paper print out into a box for recounts surely that is just half a step forward as recounts will be done manually. Also you will probably get people looking to examine the paper votes post election so they can find errors & undermine the system.

The previous failed system seem to rely on secrecy for its security which is never a good way to develop systems. See dahamstas post.

Not quite getting you here- the retention of the paper element would mean that essentially we're retaining the current system but also adding an electronic version on top that will give us fast and accurate results. The electronic version should be more accurate- but the paper version has the advantage of transparency.

It wouldn't be something high on my priority list- but the mistake made in the NW count is very alarming indeed and highlights that improvements need to be made.

[dahamsta]

But that's were the paper trail comes inPaper trails are great when you have a population that are neither lazy nor stupid. Fianna Fail are still in power, so I don't think Ireland counts.

[Macy]

The electronic system was still randomly distributing the surplus.
It originally did proportionally allocate surpluses (even as far as the trials iirc). Cullen changed it when people demanded a paper trail. He put in the random selection of surpluses so that there couldn't be a paper trail back up, as you couldn't select the same random sample.

Personally, although I don't see anything wrong with our current system or how long it takes, i'm not against evoting as a concept. A system such as Mr A with a print out as a back up would've got support. And obviously proportional surpluses would enhance the current system. Manual voting obviously has it's flaws too, with missing votes and debatable votes. However, Dempsey, Cullen and Ahern made such a bags of it, it'll be at least a generation before it'll be considered again anyway. And after seeing some of the count on Sunday in Wicklow in person, never mind on TV, I can't say I'm disappointed!

[Schumi]

If the voter is just going to put the paper print out into a box for recounts surely that is just half a step forward as recounts will be done manually.
How else can you do recounts? The computer will just give you the same result everytime, regardless of whether it's correct or not.

Also you will probably get people looking to examine the paper votes post election so they can find errors & undermine the system.
If there are errors, surely it's a good thing that they'd be highlighted. :confused:

[pete]

If there are errors, surely it's a good thing that they'd be highlighted. :confused:

I was trying to say that because there is a paper back up candidates will look for more recounts (because they can) as maybe they will say they don't trust the system.

I think the candidates in the trial constituencies got a bit of a shock when the final results announced so soon. Because there were no intermediate counts they were unsure if they could trust the result.

[holidaysong]

Off-topic here but just something I've always wondered...if Sinn Fein got into government here, who would be Taoiseach?:confused:

It would be Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin. He's Sinn Féin's leader in the Dáil.

[Mr A]

It would be Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin. He's Sinn Féin's leader in the Dáil.

Shudder.

[Poor Student]

Martin McGuinness would be First Minister in the event of Sinn Féin being the largest party in the Assembly. I just don't see the TUV getting the same level of support in an Assembly or Westminster election, a lot of the vote had to do with Allister himself being an ex-MEP and having experience in Brussels. Plus all three sides definitely wouldn't contend constituencies in a first past the post election that could return a nationalist if the unionist vote split.

I don't think they'd poll as high as they did in the European elections but I think they'd make enough of an impact in Assembly elections to take a seat in places like East Belfast.

In Westminister Elections the prospect of losing a seat to nationalists in Unionist majority (or close to) areas doesn't stop the DUP and UUP going against each other in the likes of North and South Belfast. If Allister really wants to put it up to the DUP he may contest those.