The "Will We Stay Up?" thread [Archive]

pineapple stu

03/12/2008, 12:58 PM

Drogheda look dead and buried at this stage, to be honest.

Reports in various papers that they, along with Athlone, Cobh, Harps, Bray and Cork have failed to pay their players by 30 November as per licencing. Other reports have just four teams. Interesting that Bray are there - contradicts the earlier theory that they cut back on players' wages to dip under the 65% wage cap. Looks like there could be big cuts there next year too.

In theory, none of those can get a licence. In Ireland, they've now got till 31 January to pay up or risk an even longer deadline.

So will we stay up? My money's still firmly on "No", but it'll be an interesting pre-season keeping an eye on what goes on. Either way, it looks like we're going to bounce back much the stronger for this in the coming years.

Rovers1

03/12/2008, 1:13 PM

Would it not be Finn Harps who are would be offered a place first??

holidaysong

03/12/2008, 1:18 PM

Would it not be Finn Harps who are would be offered a place first??

If Harps and Cobh don't pay the outstanding wages they are reported to owe then UCD would be next in line.

Rovers1

03/12/2008, 1:30 PM

If Harps and Cobh don't pay the outstanding wages they are reported to owe then UCD would be next in line.

oh i see, thought they'd settled all that..

Bald Student

03/12/2008, 1:48 PM

Imagine the abuse we'd get from Galway fans if we stay up.

noby

03/12/2008, 2:16 PM

Imagine the abuse we'd get from Galway fans if we stay up.

I sense a little glee in that sentence.

John83

03/12/2008, 2:45 PM

I sense a little glee in that sentence.
We could send them a DVD of us giggling like schoolgirls.

joeSoap

03/12/2008, 2:54 PM

Not going to happen I'm afraid. The FAI have shown in the past that they are very amenable to moving the goialposts on licencing issues and will do so here if necessary.

John83

03/12/2008, 3:15 PM

Not going to happen I'm afraid. The FAI have shown in the past that they are very amenable to moving the goialposts on licencing issues and will do so here if necessary.
Yes they have. So many clubs have been in trouble this year that I can see them fudging like made this close season. I fully expect no one bar probably Drogheda to be religated for licensing issues.

Burnsie

05/12/2008, 1:41 PM

Not going to happen I'm afraid. The FAI have shown in the past that they are very amenable to moving the goialposts on licencing issues and will do so here if necessary.

I agree entirely

higgins

05/12/2008, 5:14 PM

If those reports are true then UCD should stay up at the expense of Drogheda Finn Harps and Cobh.

Also, I keep mentioning it but Shelbourne stuck to the deadlines set for payments when we were in trouble. We cleared debts with the revenue and had agreements with all other creditors including players but we still got punished with demotion.

Meeting the deadlines only entitles you to get a licence. The FAI will still have to decide on what punishment you get for not having everything running correctly in the first place.

At least that's what happened to Shels.
The rules are more serious now too, there was no overspending of 65% when Shels were punished.

Still I'd expect the FAI to do nothing..

Bald Student

05/12/2008, 5:44 PM

Also, I keep mentioning it but Shelbourne stuck to the deadlines set for payments when we were in trouble. We cleared debts with the revenue and had agreements with all other creditors including players but we still got punished with demotion.
The revenue took yee to court twice to get that money and their barrister said in court that yee didn't stick to the agreed schedule.

pineapple stu

05/12/2008, 5:50 PM

Bald Student is the new pineapple stu...

John83

05/12/2008, 6:04 PM

Bald Student is the new pineapple stu...
There's no speculation based on a cobbled collection of public accounts, newspaper reports and gossip there. BS saw that with his own eyes.

Bald Student

05/12/2008, 6:09 PM

There's no speculation based on a cobbled collection of public accounts, newspaper reports and gossip there. BS saw that with his own eyes.

Technically, I heard it with my ears. I can't lip read.

John83

05/12/2008, 6:29 PM

Technically, I heard it with my ears. I can't lip read.
Touché. However, we were behind the lawyer so lipreading wouldn't have helped unless he was talking out of his ass.

higgins

12/12/2008, 3:38 AM

The revenue took yee to court twice to get that money and their barrister said in court that yee didn't stick to the agreed schedule.

All before what I'm talking about..

When the season ended we were set deadlines to pay in full and to come to erms with all creditors. We done all that and to this day have stuck to those agreements.

We were still demoted.

HarpoJoyce

12/12/2008, 8:22 AM

All before what I'm talking about..

When the season ended we were set deadlines to pay in full and to come to erms with all creditors. We done all that and to this day have stuck to those agreements.

We were still demoted.

Your demotion was that you were out of the top 12. You present it like Shelbourne are innocent and the FAI vitimicised you.

You voluntarily left the Setanta Cup in Spring of 2007 and the the pressure was on the club whether they were going to compete in the Champions League qualifiers. In recent times Shels most oft-quoted competition. Dermot Keeley is proud of the fact he arrived to a club with two players and friends, Shels didn't think Shels had, helped Shels out.

When players, employees and Service Providers are pressurised to take a cut in income/revenue or are pressurised to renegotiate already agreed contracts to their detriment, this is not an acceptable situation.
Should you get solicitors like Ennio Mallocco back at your club to help you with these vagries in the Law?

higgins

13/12/2008, 4:23 PM

When players, employees and Service Providers are pressurised to take a cut in income/revenue or are pressurised to renegotiate already agreed contracts to their detriment, this is not an acceptable situation.

Of course it's unacceptable.
We deserved what we got.

I'm just saying that if the same rules are applied to the current teams in the Premier who have also broken contracts with players then UCD should rightfully stay up.

HarpoJoyce

13/12/2008, 4:48 PM

Of course it's unacceptable.
We deserved what we got.

I'm just saying that if the same rules are applied to the current teams in the Premier who have also broken contracts with players then UCD should rightfully stay up.

Thanks for the reply.
On your second point, about broken contracts and relegation. There's alot of people at UCD who believe the same. I'm still undecided about it.
Certainly, a club that went to Court to reneged on contracts and promises through the Examinership process should be serverely punished, including relegation from the Division they are in. I can't defend those clubs' actions in my sporting community and I don't.
I never understand why the High Court's decision in favour of Shamrock Rovers is considered good for the LoI. But I don't understand people who abuse minorities either.

Dodge

13/12/2008, 4:50 PM

pineapple stu

21/12/2008, 12:48 PM

Titan

22/12/2008, 10:27 AM

Harps need E150k to qualify for a licence for next year. Probably an element of boy who cried wolf there though.

Pat's going part time too. Looks like only Bohs full time next year, although they're trying to get out of it, offering wage cuts.

The league is going back to where it was ten years ago or so. We really need to get out of the First Division ASAP; could easily establish ourselves as a mid-table Premier team then.

Ah good old mid table obscurity! Can dream I suppose!

Was there any more about the first division only having 22 games next year? I'd be in favour as long as they dont ressurect the shield.

John83

22/12/2008, 2:14 PM

Ah good old mid table obscurity! Can dream I suppose!

Was there any more about the first division only having 22 games next year? I'd be in favour as long as they dont ressurect the shield.
I suspect the only way we'll have enough teams for 22 games is if it's just us, Wexford and Monaghan and we play each of them 11 times.

pineapple stu

23/12/2008, 5:13 PM

Apparently Cobh voted against a deal to sell their ground to the FAI to clear their debts. I don't understand that club at all.

Opening bit of an article in the Indo -

COBH Ramblers are in danger of being denied a League of Ireland licence for next season after their members dramatically voted against an FAI loan proposal on Sunday evening.

The decision means that their debts of close to €500,000 will remain into the New Year as the January 31 deadline for unpaid monies looms.

With many of the players owed unpaid wages of up to €40,000, and no source of income in the off-season, Ramblers are believed to be resigned to fielding an amateur team next year, whether in the League of Ireland or not.

Captain2007

23/12/2008, 5:43 PM

. Other reports have just four teams. Interesting that Bray are there - contradicts the earlier theory that they cut back on players' wages to dip under the 65% wage cap. Looks like there could be big cuts Reports in various papers that they, along with Athlone, Cobh, Harps, Bray and Cork have failed to pay their players by 30 November as per licencingthere next year too.

Bray Players agreed to take a pay cut for the last 3 matches,players on contracts are fully paid hence Ger Rowe been released,and yes the budget for 2009 will be 2/3 of what it was for 2008, Bray will be looking at their successful underage set up to bring some players through especially with the financial situation at present.

Poor Student

06/01/2009, 1:56 PM

Without going into the details Drogheda and Harps still look to be in serious difficulty. I think Bohs and Cork are out of the woods with regards to starting in the Premier next season so it would take the unlikely situation of Drogs, Harps and Cobh being unable to secure a licence to give us a chance of staying up. It's strange that this possibility can't be totally ruled out at this late stage.

DmanDmythDledge

06/01/2009, 2:54 PM

It seems likely that Drogs won't be getting a license. Given Harps financially difficulties would they want a place in the Premier next season? To avoid adding to their debt they would have to have a team that probably wouldn't be competitive.

pineapple stu

06/01/2009, 2:57 PM

Given Harps financially difficulties would they want a place in the Premier next season?
Two games against Derry should answer your question.

pineapple stu

21/01/2009, 3:55 PM

Apparently Harps and Cobh have both had their 2009 budgets vetoed by the FAI, which presumably where our small chance lies.

Juanace

21/01/2009, 5:01 PM

Apparently Harps and Cobh have both had their 2009 budgets vetoed by the FAI, which presumably where our small chance lies.

When did you here that Stu?

pineapple stu

21/01/2009, 5:53 PM

Juanace

21/01/2009, 7:43 PM

It's on the eL forum; gufct posted it.

Piecing together the clues, what may have happened is that the FAI, realising Drogheda aren't going to get a licence for next year, went to Harps to ensure everything was in order there. That's when the E150k hole in their accounts showed up, which is why Harps suddenly started looking for E150k for their licence, and why they're so eager to reject notions they're not in trouble (they've a very short deadline). Cobh are obviously in a mess, so we're next.

That's all pure speculation, mind, but it's a theory which fits the facts as we know them. I'm sure there's others.

Interesting stuff! I give us a very outside chance of being a premier club though, here's hoping.

The whole feckin league is a joke mind. Seems every club bar one or two have got the benefit of league position by overspending and were gettting punished for not. Hope the club take legal action or sumtin. I'm trying to get 'em to!

pineapple stu

22/01/2009, 10:14 AM

They'd have to fire you to free up cash for that. :)

Anyways, no point sueing for promotion if it's a 22-team league in a couple of years...

Bald Student

22/01/2009, 10:23 AM

They'd have to fire you to free up cash for that. :)

Anyways, no point sueing for promotion if it's a 22-team league in a couple of years...
Where is the league going to get 22 teams from?

pineapple stu

22/01/2009, 10:24 AM

Bump 'em up from the A League. I'm sure any team in there would, by definition, jump at the chance of promotion to the league proper...

pineapple stu

23/01/2009, 3:57 PM

Quote from Delaney on setanta.com about Drogheda's current problems-

"If any of the clubs that are currently in the Premier Division don't make it through, then the first offer will go to the last relegated club, who would be Finn Harps.

"Obviously if Finn Harps don't meet the requirements set out by the licensing committee, then it would be offered down again to the next club. Any First Division club that have applied for a Premier Division will have to wait for the relegated clubs to be sorted out first."
So that confirms the pecking order as Harps first, then Cobh, then us, then Shels, then Fingal, etc.

pineapple stu

27/01/2009, 12:47 PM

The FAI have rejected Cobh's ground purchase proposals because, according to RTÉ, they can't be seen to be giving assistance to clubs around licencing time. They have left the door open to revisit the issue after licence time. Implies to me that Cobh have no chance of getting a Premier licence this year.

DeNiro

28/01/2009, 1:09 PM

When is there an official ruling on this? UCD look a great bet to stay up. What sort of budget does it take UCD to keep it ticking over week by week?

Schumi

28/01/2009, 1:11 PM

Licences are announced in the first few weeks of February AFAIK.

pineapple stu

28/01/2009, 1:15 PM

Budget is about E8k a week for everything over the season.

pineapple stu

28/01/2009, 1:45 PM

holidaysong

28/01/2009, 1:53 PM

And speaking of budgets, it's on the Drogheda forum that their proposed budget for next year has been dropped from E500k to E250k, with the Droda Indent as the source. If that's true, and with bugger all players still, I'd expect Drogheda to take the Shelegation option if they come through the court tomorrow.

I'd still expect Drogheda to apply for a Premier Licence to be honest. If they aren't let down on the finances then perhaps they will be let down on their ground but at the end of the day, I don't see why they would opt for the First Division rather than the Premier given the choice. Surely it'd be worth it alone for the better crowds and increased revenue..

Rovers1

28/01/2009, 1:58 PM

Budget is about E8k a week for everything over the season.

would you be able to break that down Stu?

surely with the small crowds UCD get, they cant afford €8k p/w??

pineapple stu

28/01/2009, 2:44 PM

Our budget for the year is E300k, ballpark. Over 40 weeks, that's about E8k a week for everything. That's a fairly small budget by LoI standards.

If by "break it down" you mean "Where does it come from", then you've got the Superleague, which is a major fundraiser (64 teams paying E1000 each, or whatever the current rate is), sponsorship for the Superleague, 8 weeks of 70 kids on summer camp @ E70 for the week (these figures are very rough, but it's an idea), the alumni dinner, the golf outing and private philanthropy. That's the extra stuff on top of gate receipts, match advertising, etc.

Crowds really don't mean much in this league.

pineapple stu

16/02/2009, 11:49 AM

So the answer is no.

But at least we got a Premier Division licence (http://www.ucdsoccer.com/index.php?a=204). Although with the other clubs who got one, you have to wonder just how hard it is to fail.

Schumi

16/02/2009, 11:52 AM

So the answer is no.I'm glad really, we don't have a team to compete in the premier. The second half of last year was soul destroying, I couldn't take a repeat.

But at least we got a Premier Division licence. Although with the other clubs who got one, you have to wonder just how hard it is to fail.Ask Cobh!

pineapple stu

16/02/2009, 11:55 AM

I'm glad really, we don't have a team to compete in the premier. The second half of last year was soul destroying, I couldn't take a repeat.
True in a way, but the friendlies this year have me all optimistic again. :)

Ask Cobh!
I know! So they're either (a) really really really screwed or (b) not big enough for the FAI to look after.

Athlone and Cork's licences are provisional based on clearing off debt, as is Cobh's, interestingly, and by extention, Kildare's.

Schumi

16/02/2009, 12:06 PM

I know! So they're either (a) really really really screwed or (b) not big enough for the FAI to look after.Could be both!

Athlone and Cork's licences are provisional based on clearing off debt, as is Cobh's, interestingly, and by extention, Kildare's.By extension? They're listed the same as the other 3. I wonder would Salthill would be next in line for the first division if someone doesn't get their conditions sorted out? It'd be very short notice if they're preparing for the A League in June.

pineapple stu

16/02/2009, 12:17 PM

By extension? They're listed the same as the other 3.
Just commented on that in the main forum thread. It could be just a very badly worded release. Makes more sense. Otherwise, Cobh's A Licence is in trouble.

Saw on another forum (Rovers, I think) that the A League begins in early April.

Also, is an A team a criterion of a Premier licence?